GM comes out looking fine in that data. Why would that bother me? Only your incorrect inference draws a comment from me. You took a chart and pointed out how GM stood in the mix...and incorrectly at that.
4 out of 5 don't choose GM when buying new. I would expect all the niche specialty cars to be more appealing. Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. You obviously didn't read the title of the data.
Why are Honda, Toyota, and Nissan so low...well below GM on this list? Any takers?
Stale products.
When Hyundai comes out with a 200hp/35mpg sedan, and then follows up with a 40mpg Elantra, that makes headlines and shifts consumer attitudes towards the brand.
Camry is at the end of its life cycle, in fact a new one arrives this fall, and spy shots are already popping up. Same for the Malibu, by the way (Chevy also scored below average). Same for Altima and Accord.
Sentra is also ancient. Corolla is old too.
The new Civic wasn't out yet.
And to show how the APEAL study is not a good indicator of sales, look no further than Subaru, 2nd from the bottom, with record sales for both years covered by the study (2010 and 2011 model years).
Also, a couple of poor selling cars won APEAL awards:
Well of course Hyundai/Kia looks appealing with a all time high of unemployment and debt. Once we all start making real money again, we will be able to afford real cars
Funniest post in this thread. You win a virtual trophy for that one.
How do you account for Malibu and Cruze selling so well now? Cruze hasn't had incentives, and Malibu's weren't significantly more than Fusion's (and I don't know that they were any different from several months ago). I know I wouldn't buy a new car I didn't like just because it was $1,000 or even $2,500 less than the competition.
P.S. And the tsunami supposedly didn't affect Nissan, although they've lost places in the Top Ten as well.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I've always like the current Malibu, so sprinkled with incentives, I'm not surprised at all that it's selling well.
Cruze is brand new, and so much improved over its predecessor that none of us should be surprised. The ECO model gets headlines just when gas prices are going up again - great timing.
Ford sold lots of assets, didn't they? It wasn't easy...
How come Ford's foresight seems so much better than GM's or Chrysler's? Could it be the circumstances were entirely forseeable and GM and Chrysler just stuck their heads in the sand like the Dodo Bird?
By the way, who said running a successful business was EASY??? That's why they get paid the big bucks. If it was easy, everyone would do it.
That is what is so irritating, all the executives who were incompetent and completely failed at GM and Chrysler are still getting paid the big bucks even though they've proven themselves incompetent and incapable. They shouldn't be getting paid the big bucks any more, they should have gone the way of the Dodo bird, and died!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Ford has two classes of shares. Once the Ford family realized it was time to put all their chips in or risk losing it all, they hocked everything, right down to the family name. Gutsy move, and they didn't have to get approval from the shareholders of the Class A shares. And if they had gone banko, the Class B shares would have gotten preference over the Class A shares.
GM and Chrysler would have had trouble going that far without a full blown shareholder revolt. Bankruptcy was an easier way to deal with the owners.
I think the Charger makes the best (looking) cop car. Wonder how reliable they are?
Well, the Charger is so unreliable that Vegas has put the risk vs. reward margins favoring a bet on running, evading, and resisting arrest if you are ever chased by a cop in a Charger in the driver's favor!
Chances are, the cop will have a breakdown trying to chase you down, and you'll get away scott free!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Agreed. Malibu and Cruze reflected the fact the these are the first 2 mainline cars GM could be proud of. I'll reflect back on the last post that it's mainly because up until these 2, real cars and GM were mutually exclusive. :shades:
Don't look now, but get ready for both to drop in the top sales ranking in July.
When 75% of GM score below average. that's fine? OK. Says a lot about their products to me
It says little or nothing.
Pontiac Aztek won its class in APEAL. How well did that model do?
It's a poor measure of future sales. Very, very poor.
Also, before you quote statistics like that, what is their margin of error? Chevy as a brand was very close to the industry average. Were any models significantly below average once you account for the margin of error? I didn't see, so I'm asking...
Those divisions were shuttered, that's different. They were all domestic, internal.
I know Saab was basically a GM domesticated by GM over the years, but still a foreign car company. Hummer really wasn't internalized much either. What about Opel, chinese Buick, couldn't they have sold those?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
They don't quote MoE. My observation is that the bulk of GM's products are less appealing than the competition at this moment. Might not affect sales at all.
They are hardly doing "just fine" in this area.
Just another metric to rate your next purchase based on how other owners rated the satisfaction of the brands and models.
This should be a blur about Caddy in 2013. It, of course, is not. Why? Because GM is not serious...just the same 'ol same 'ol boring GM as ever. Standard of the World. Absoultely NOT! Not even CLOSE!
In keeping with its sports-car credentials, the larger car, whose 3.0-liter six-cylinder gasoline engine and electric motor produce a combined 349 horsepower and 406 pound-feet of torque, will sprint from 0-60 in less than 4.6 seconds. Top speed is electronically governed to 155 mph. But the car also returns a remarkable 78 mpg and is capable of driving up to 22 miles in pure electric mode.
Saab was foreign, long ago I guess. They'd been on GM platforms (Epsilon) for so long I'd forgotten. LOL
Point is noone was immune. How ironic is it that English brands like Jaguar and Land Rover are now Indian-owned? I have friends from south asia who get more than a little kick out of that.
Ford took a hit, too. It's good that they were able to avoid bankruptcy, so maybe the hit was "less bad".
Owner satisfaction of 3 Hyundai/Kia owners including myself can pretty much be summed up like this
Cheap affordable cars that u bought because you couldn't afford anything else or you thought looked good in which u regret your decision and end up dumping that vehicle at a loss. Yup pretty much sums up Hyundai....those vehicles may as well have a gold made in china sticker on the bottom of them.
I mean my Kia was crap and i hated it but my Impala was crap too but i absolutely loved it. I dunno why you hate on GM so much when your so clearly infatuated with them.
You get what you pay for hence why there are hardly any Hyundai fanboys on here, I mean after you finally buy a Hyundai you will be begging me and Lemko for a spot on our GM bandwagon. I don't even know what you drive but i am 90% sure u don't own a Hyundai or Kia because you wouldn't hold them in such high regard if u actually owned 1.
I summed the 4 GM entries on the JD Powers list and divided by 4. Guess what? The GM average is 788. That's above the industry average and beats ford and smokes Hundai's number from last year by almost 30 points. Like I said, GM does fine.
I regard Hyundai and Kia as to the present day equivalent of what Crosley and Henry J were in the 1950s.
My brother recently went through a divorce. They had two vehicles: a 2001 Jeep Cherokee Sport and a 2005 Hyundai Sonata. He wisely chose the older vehicle.
Even with just over 2 K on the new '11 Grand Cherokee, I would place Chrysler way up between VW and GM on this list. I felt I was taking a leap of faith with my new purchase, but after driving it just once on the interstate, I was sold.
Do get back to us after 6 months and then after a year with your '11 Jeep Grand Cherokee. I know that after seeing them all over Kellogg, ID, home of Dave Smith Motors, the world's top-selling Chrysler dealer, I must say the new Grand Cherokee is one beautiful SUV. It has me looking. And the new SRTwhatever Dodge Charger looks better now that it has more of the Mitsubishi new world order EVO gaping maw up in your...I...I mean it's grille. :shades: Was your Grand Cherokee in the range of $45,000 might I be so bold as to ask you, iwant12?
Anytime I want to jump ship and start selling automobiles I've got the chance of a lifetime down the hill at Dave Smith Motors. Must say I'm tempted...do the salesmen get free Dodge Challenger keychains?
I'll take a black Dodge Challenger t-shirt with an orange 2011 Dodge Challenger with two silver racing stripes down its beautiful lines, gentlemen. Chrysler is wallowing in it's newly-found emergence of swagger while Kia and big brother Hyundai are as thrifty as ever, forging straight ahead with smart engineering and well-thought out game plan. It's gonna take an ocean of calomine lotion to stop HyunKia, domestic car lovers.
I regard Hyundai and Kia as to the present day equivalent of what Crosley and Henry J were in the 1950s.
And, I would regard GM as ALMOST being the equivalent of the bankrupted parent company of Henry J of the 50's, Kaiser. Who knows but that Kaiser, if given same treatment by nanny state U.S. of today, back then, and bailed out, that it would have prospered.
Kaiser didn't even last ten years as a builder of automobiles. They were way behind the Big Three in sales and technology. I doubt they would have prospered. Studebaker lasted eleven years longer building cars than Kaiser did...but of course had built cars for over forty years before Kaiser, too.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Please go test drive the Grand Cherokee 4X4 and tell me if you're not sold. That Mercedes chassis is a wonderful thing, IMHO. Two of my co-wokers have also bought '11 JCGs, though both are RWDs, one with a hemi. They too purchased after just one test drive.
I've had 21 vehicles in 35 years of driving, many makes and types, most of them bought new.
I would've never considered a previous model Jeep, unless it was a Wrangler to play with on the weekends.
As far as reliability, I'll dump it for something else if it starts giving me problems. Wouldn't be the first time . . .
I did drive the new Explorer. I really wanted to like this car and was considering it (though it's a 7 seater). It screamed FWD in a big way, even before I left the parking lot. Sorry, no deal.
Iluv, I bought the Laredo X V6 4X4, cloth interior, pretty basic unit, no navi or high-tech stereo. But it doesn't look basic at all! Interior is pretty impressive and the seats are comfy. Love the new steering wheel, nice and meaty. I paid 32K (It listed at 34K and change) and got 1.9% interest.
Now they do have the Overland Summit model, and I believe that model is 46K with the 4x4.
So far, I'm loving my Jeep. We're doing a roadtrip to Utah, AZ, NM in Sept, I'll report on that when we get back.
My wife is starting to get the new car fever too. I'm ever so slowly working her towards a Camaro SS.
A few days ago a co-worker and I were looking out the 2nd story window at work, at a new shiny black Optima in the parking lot. I knew what it was at once. He--not being the car affectionado that I am--thought it was a Jag. And looking at it, I thought: Well, I can see that . . . maybe. Must have been that it was all back, dark windows, chrome wheels (that I kinda like),and had a bit of chrome on the front fender. Nice car.
Thanks...I am working on my brother to trade in his JGC and get the new one! He is a Chief Custodian of a School and must get to work each day up in the northeast.
Heck, I'd rather have my alternatives to GM be cars like Kaiser Dragons with beautiful interiors by Carlton Spencer than bland or weird Asian makes like Toyota or Hyundai. I'll take a Packard over a Lexus any day!
I speak only the truth my good man. I mean 20 large for a Optima lol. I am not surprised he is constantly trolling the GM forum's and praising the Koreans......... Considering that ugly Optima is no where near the top of the sales charts, unlike my 5.0 f 150, heck id even take even my wifes 03 Grand AM over any Kia. For now I will just laugh at his delusional thoughts that people would accept such a oddball ugly car.
I think the Optima's actually pretty attractive from most angles, but I agree, I don't like those wheels at all. They look like someone took a pie tin and cut a bunch of slits in it. I think those are only on the top line SX model, though. The cheaper models have, IMO, more attractive wheels.
The hybrid model uses different wheels as well, a 5-spoke design that makes me think of flattened-out flower petals.
The '03 Grand Am's actually not a bad looking car, if you get one of the lower-end models without all the ribs & wings. I hated the interior though. I thought the Olds version, the Alero, was pretty nice, though. Had one for a rental once, and I liked it alot.
Heck, you can get em up near 30K pretty easy with options. That being said, it is no less attractive than a Camcord, and spec for spec is a better value if you are going to keep it forever (huge fleet dumps make me wonder about retained value). The Koreans seem to be doing a 1990s GM move with fleet sales. Optima is worlds better looking than a Sonata IMO.
Yes the Optima looks a Tiny bit better than the Sonata. If i owned a Sonata i would probably drive it into a wall to improve the grill design. I haven't looked under either of them yet, but im fairly certain a gold "Made in China" sticker is wedged under there somewhere like i mentioned previously.
Wow an Optima optioned out to 30k fintail :surprise: some people just have to much money to throw away
Nah, it's Korea, compared to China that's like Germany.
I actually don't have a beef with the Optima, compared to the lack of style of previous Hyunkia models. The grille is kind of odd, but the overall car is inoffensive and fairly sleek. The direct injection and turbo technology is also interesting -I think it is a suitable Camry alternative anyway. But I too don't see one in my garage anytime soon.
Back in 1997, it was an $11 billion dollar ant hill per this great LA Times writer (wonder where he is now? :-)). At the time Kia was a #20 billion dollar company. At least one bank was at risk of going down with it. (S. Korea Bankruptcy Panel Takes Control of Kia)
Comments
4 out of 5 don't choose GM when buying new. I would expect all the niche specialty cars to be more appealing. Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. You obviously didn't read the title of the data.
Stale products.
When Hyundai comes out with a 200hp/35mpg sedan, and then follows up with a 40mpg Elantra, that makes headlines and shifts consumer attitudes towards the brand.
Camry is at the end of its life cycle, in fact a new one arrives this fall, and spy shots are already popping up. Same for the Malibu, by the way (Chevy also scored below average). Same for Altima and Accord.
Sentra is also ancient. Corolla is old too.
The new Civic wasn't out yet.
And to show how the APEAL study is not a good indicator of sales, look no further than Subaru, 2nd from the bottom, with record sales for both years covered by the study (2010 and 2011 model years).
Also, a couple of poor selling cars won APEAL awards:
Pontiac Aztek (seriously)
Subaru Baja
Funniest post in this thread. You win a virtual trophy for that one.
Ford sold lots of assets, didn't they? It wasn't easy...
Looking at this a bit more, it's almost the kiss of death. Look how many slow-selling models won their segment:
Volt won for compacts, I guess BOTH buyers find them appealing.
GTI is outsold by Jetta 4 to 1, and that's before Jetta sales skyrocketed.
Z4 roadsters are rare as hen's teeth.
Lexus IS won its class, how are sales of that model? (I'm joking BTW)
Challenger won and gets CRUSHED by Mustang and Camaro in sales.
Suzuki Kizashi is an endangered species and it won.
Countryman won and must be the lowest volume compact crossover in the market. I bet Honda sells more beige CR-Vs on Tuesday than MINI sells all year.
Scion xB is selling poorly and won.
Armada sells poorly also.
Range Rover and Ridgeline - I'm not sure which has less market share in its segment, tough battle there!
Clearly, winning APEAL has little or nothing to do with sales.
Kiss of death, it seems.
***
Footnote: "Style" is one of 5 categories, a subjective one, and remember, AZTEC WON
P.S. And the tsunami supposedly didn't affect Nissan, although they've lost places in the Top Ten as well.
Cruze is brand new, and so much improved over its predecessor that none of us should be surprised. The ECO model gets headlines just when gas prices are going up again - great timing.
How come Ford's foresight seems so much better than GM's or Chrysler's? Could it be the circumstances were entirely forseeable and GM and Chrysler just stuck their heads in the sand like the Dodo Bird?
By the way, who said running a successful business was EASY??? That's why they get paid the big bucks. If it was easy, everyone would do it.
That is what is so irritating, all the executives who were incompetent and completely failed at GM and Chrysler are still getting paid the big bucks even though they've proven themselves incompetent and incapable. They shouldn't be getting paid the big bucks any more, they should have gone the way of the Dodo bird, and died!
GM and Chrysler would have had trouble going that far without a full blown shareholder revolt. Bankruptcy was an easier way to deal with the owners.
Being sold after one drive from something from Chrysler is insane.
Well, the Charger is so unreliable that Vegas has put the risk vs. reward margins favoring a bet on running, evading, and resisting arrest if you are ever chased by a cop in a Charger in the driver's favor!
Chances are, the cop will have a breakdown trying to chase you down, and you'll get away scott free!
Remember, they sold Volvo to Tata, Jaguar to Prodrive, and Land Rover to who-knows-who, plus a chunk of Mazda.
I think you are giving Ford WAY too much credit.
I'm sure the execs lost enough money (on paper).
GM sold Hummer to who?
GM sold Pontiac to who?
Gm sold SAAB to who?
Something tells me Ford got a better deal on their 4 sales you mentioned than GM did on the four I've mentioned above!
Your giving GM WAY too much credit.
BTW, you know what matches their market share? The decline in their stock price since going public after BANKRUPTCY. 20% decline.
Regards,
OW
Ford took the HIGH ROAD. GM, the usual. :lemon:
Regards,
OW
Exaggerate much?
I'd take that bet, and I'm not even a Chrysler buff.
Don't look now, but get ready for both to drop in the top sales ranking in July.
Regards,
OW
Those divisions were shuttered, that's different. They were all domestic, internal.
I'm not giving GM *ANY* credit. I'm just not blaming them for the credit crisis that forced Ford to liquidate international assets left and right.
It says little or nothing.
Pontiac Aztek won its class in APEAL. How well did that model do?
It's a poor measure of future sales. Very, very poor.
Also, before you quote statistics like that, what is their margin of error? Chevy as a brand was very close to the industry average. Were any models significantly below average once you account for the margin of error? I didn't see, so I'm asking...
I know Saab was basically a GM domesticated by GM over the years, but still a foreign car company. Hummer really wasn't internalized much either.
What about Opel, chinese Buick, couldn't they have sold those?
They are hardly doing "just fine" in this area.
Just another metric to rate your next purchase based on how other owners rated the satisfaction of the brands and models.
Regards,
OW
In keeping with its sports-car credentials, the larger car, whose 3.0-liter six-cylinder gasoline engine and electric motor produce a combined 349 horsepower and 406 pound-feet of torque, will sprint from 0-60 in less than 4.6 seconds. Top speed is electronically governed to 155 mph. But the car also returns a remarkable 78 mpg and is capable of driving up to 22 miles in pure electric mode.
Volt/Shmolt!
Regards,
OW
Point is noone was immune. How ironic is it that English brands like Jaguar and Land Rover are now Indian-owned? I have friends from south asia who get more than a little kick out of that.
Ford took a hit, too. It's good that they were able to avoid bankruptcy, so maybe the hit was "less bad".
New models like the Volt won their category.
Spark hasn't arrived. Nor had the new Malibu.
Camaro made the list.
OK, the Impala did not, be I think none of us are surprised about that. In fact that model probably dragged down Chevy's average a lot.
HHR made the list, I'm surprised the Equinox didn't.
Avalanche did for pickups, too, and that's probably GM's slowest selling pickup. I'm telling ya, APEAL != sales.
Cheap affordable cars that u bought because you couldn't afford anything else or you thought looked good in which u regret your decision and end up dumping that vehicle at a loss. Yup pretty much sums up Hyundai....those vehicles may as well have a gold made in china sticker on the bottom of them.
I mean my Kia was crap and i hated it but my Impala was crap too but i absolutely loved it. I dunno why you hate on GM so much when your so clearly infatuated with them.
You get what you pay for hence why there are hardly any Hyundai fanboys on here, I mean after you finally buy a Hyundai you will be begging me and Lemko for a spot on our GM bandwagon. I don't even know what you drive but i am 90% sure u don't own a Hyundai or Kia because you wouldn't hold them in such high regard if u actually owned 1.
My brother recently went through a divorce. They had two vehicles: a 2001 Jeep Cherokee Sport and a 2005 Hyundai Sonata. He wisely chose the older vehicle.
Regards,
OW
Do get back to us after 6 months and then after a year with your '11 Jeep Grand Cherokee. I know that after seeing them all over Kellogg, ID, home of Dave Smith Motors, the world's top-selling Chrysler dealer, I must say the new Grand Cherokee is one beautiful SUV. It has me looking. And the new SRTwhatever Dodge Charger looks better now that it has more of the Mitsubishi new world order EVO gaping maw up in your...I...I mean it's grille. :shades: Was your Grand Cherokee in the range of $45,000 might I be so bold as to ask you, iwant12?
Anytime I want to jump ship and start selling automobiles I've got the chance of a lifetime down the hill at Dave Smith Motors. Must say I'm tempted...do the salesmen get free Dodge Challenger keychains?
I'll take a black Dodge Challenger t-shirt with an orange 2011 Dodge Challenger with two silver racing stripes down its beautiful lines, gentlemen. Chrysler is wallowing in it's newly-found emergence of swagger while Kia and big brother Hyundai are as thrifty as ever, forging straight ahead with smart engineering and well-thought out game plan. It's gonna take an ocean of calomine lotion to stop HyunKia, domestic car lovers.
I can honestly promise you that. Right, circlew?
2021 Kia Soul LX 6-speed stick
You honestly can! :shades:
Unless their union stops them dead in their tracks, that is!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
And, I would regard GM as ALMOST being the equivalent of the bankrupted parent company of Henry J of the 50's, Kaiser. Who knows but that Kaiser, if given same treatment by nanny state U.S. of today, back then, and bailed out, that it would have prospered.
I've had 21 vehicles in 35 years of driving, many makes and types, most of them bought new.
I would've never considered a previous model Jeep, unless it was a Wrangler to play with on the weekends.
As far as reliability, I'll dump it for something else if it starts giving me problems. Wouldn't be the first time . . .
I did drive the new Explorer. I really wanted to like this car and was considering it (though it's a 7 seater). It screamed FWD in a big way, even before I left the parking lot. Sorry, no deal.
Now they do have the Overland Summit model, and I believe that model is 46K with the 4x4.
So far, I'm loving my Jeep. We're doing a roadtrip to Utah, AZ, NM in Sept, I'll report on that when we get back.
My wife is starting to get the new car fever too. I'm ever so slowly working her towards a Camaro SS.
Your truck is gorgeous! :shades:
Regards,
OW
The hybrid model uses different wheels as well, a 5-spoke design that makes me think of flattened-out flower petals.
The '03 Grand Am's actually not a bad looking car, if you get one of the lower-end models without all the ribs & wings. I hated the interior though. I thought the Olds version, the Alero, was pretty nice, though. Had one for a rental once, and I liked it alot.
Wow an Optima optioned out to 30k fintail :surprise: some people just have to much money to throw away
I actually don't have a beef with the Optima, compared to the lack of style of previous Hyunkia models. The grille is kind of odd, but the overall car is inoffensive and fairly sleek. The direct injection and turbo technology is also interesting -I think it is a suitable Camry alternative anyway. But I too don't see one in my garage anytime soon.
But GM fell the equivalent of the Empire state building compared to Korea's ant hill!
Regards,
OW
And look at Kia now.