If I ever owned an F150, I'd idle it in gear off a cliff and take the insurance money and buy a real truck.
I'm sorry, you said a REAL truck? BWAHAHAHAHA!!
All I see in that photo is a glorified Tonka Toy that can't even come close to Ford or GM sales in pick-ups. And with good reason.
Since I'm in the construction/engineering business, I see and deal with all kinds of individuals and companies that actually USE their truck for business, and can't afford even missing ONE day of work due to equipment breakdowns. What do they drive/rely on?
Ford F-series? - check Chevy Silverado and HD? - check GMC Sierra and HD? - check Ram? - to a lesser extent, but check
Toyota? Umm... Sorry, can't think of a single one!
Sorry, but Toyota wouldn't know a "real" truck if it pulled them out of a ditch. Their first attempt at a "full-size" version, the utterly gutless and 7/8th-scale T-100, was a joke. The first-gen Tundra? Apparently the name change did NOTHING, especially to 2000-2003 owners that dealt with frame rust that can drop the spare tire and eat away at brake lines. Toyota ended up recalling their trucks nationwide, not just the rust-belt states.
The current Tundra? Too little, too late...
Lets also add what the Detroit News has said about the "expensive and problematic" Tundra:
"Toyota spent more than a decade edging into the market with two smaller pickups before the 2007 Tundra, only to have its self-proclaimed most important vehicle ever for the U.S. run headlong into stronger competitors, a stumbling economy, a market shift away from pickups and now the company's own quality problems. With around $6 billion spent on the Tundra and more than 8 million vehicles now recalled for a variety of defects, it's worth asking whether Toyota's big pickup was a considered strategic move or a costly detour."
Well i am a car guy, and i would prefer a car!! However 3 kids, regular camping trips and the very odd hunting trip has made the Ford a much more practical decision. A car will have to wait until i fix up a old beater or my youngest kid's graduation, so forgive a truck owner for posting on a car forum.
As for the gas prices, it does suck but its the price some of us are willing to pay for a little freedom
BTW, if we did ever travel together i would probably drop my speed by 10-20 mph so i wouldn't have to look at that hideous taillight design.
Chevrolet finishes first thru 4th at Brickyard today.
Maybe that mattered 50-60 years ago, when you could down to the dealer and buy a vehicle somewhat similar. What do the NASCAR race-cars have in common with a stock vehicle -very little.
If you want to look at racing for how good a vehicle is, might I suggest you follow the Corvettes in a series like American Le Mans. A Corvette is about the only current GM I'd buy; or maybe the upcoming Chevy Sonic.
You're on topic - we talking GM news and models and they come out with new Silverados all the time.
This was interesting (to me anyway):
"General Motors received nearly $17 million in job-training grants from the state of Tennessee nearly three years ago, tapping an unexpected source of cash at a time the automaker teetered on the brink of collapse, according to a published report.
Those grants made GM the biggest, single recipient of cash for job training from the Tennessee Department of Economic and Community Development, according to a database obtained by The Tennessean."
This money was for job training in Spring Hill. Those jobs then went to Lansing MI. :surprise:
you can get em up near 30K pretty easy with options
Sure, but nowadays Civics and Cruzes break $25k.
Just read about that today, lemme look back at Autoblog...found it:
Civic ($25,754 for EX-L model equipped with 17-inch wheels). For 140 horses and just 128 lb-ft.
Per Edmunds $26,750 for a Civic hybrid with nav/leather.
Cruze LTZ with every option checked ran $26,260 on Edmunds. That is for 138 horsepower.
Now Kia...
$30,895 gets you the Optima SX with the premium + touring + tech packages, so panoramic moonroof, heated and cooled leather seats with memory, heated rear seats, 18" alloys, Nav with traffic, backup cam, Infinity premium audio.
Knock off $2150 for the wheels you hate anyway, and give up the moonroof, but still have a well equipped turbo with nav/backup cam for under $29k.
$26k for 128 pound-feet, or $29k for 269 pound-feet?
More than double the torque, for those keeping score.
$26k for 138hp or $29k for 276hp?
Exactly double the power for $3000.
You won't find a better bargain in the automobile world (new).
My points, exactly. Particularly in GM's case, the G8 was the only car I'd consider but even if it was available, the idiotic "Market Appreciation Price" of $5K added still has me rotflmao today and then they discontinue the best rwd Pontiac in the last 30 years.
Chevrolet finishes first thru 4th at Brickyard today. Toyota brings up the bottom of the pack.
Are you kidding? Maybe you could provide some details as to just exactly what are the "Chevrolet" parts, componets that were in number one finisher car driven by Menard, number two by Jeff Gordon.
Menard's, Gordon's cars are about as much "Chevrolet" as the "Menard", "DuPont" logos on their cars.
Are you kidding? Maybe you could provide some details as to just exactly what are the "Chevrolet" parts, componets that were in number one finisher car driven by Menard, number two by Jeff Gordon.
Maybe Toyota came in last because they're not used to making big pushrod V-8's that are still carbureted? :P
Supposedly, the engine formula in Indycar is changing and GM may get involved in this series.
Sadly, America's premier racing series, by number of followers, uses some antiquated technology. Too bad, US manufacturers don't have a world-class racing series such as the European (mostly) F1.
Yes, it's a damn shame these Cup cars are all cookie cutters. Next year, they will all employ fuel injection . . . should make it a bit more interesting.
I had a '01 Tundra and an '03 4Runner with the 32 valve V8. A remarkable engine. I always wanted to take one of those motors, balance and blueprint it, and stick it in a light, RWD coupe.
The fact that they have wheel options means you're not stuck with the wheels you dislike.
2010 models had up to $3000 in rebates, though I doubt you can still find one. They had $1000 cash even when they were in plentiful supply.
Take that $29k model I suggested, haggle a bit, you're talking about $26-27k for an extremely competent mid-sizer. A lucky few at the very end of the model year may even have paid less.
Back to Chevy, it's the same sort of deal Uplanderguy got. Time it right, wait for the incentives, and get a tried-and-true model with all the bugs worked out of it. Great value.
I bet his Malibu didn't cost any more than a Cruze would have cost.
OnStar does suck, though, at least for navigating. I'm talking merit, this has nothing to do with the country of origin.
Where's the map? Can it even recalculate if you go off their chosen path, last time I looked it couldn't. They just read off the next turn like Mapquest does (circa 1995).
Any old cell phone app can do better than that.
Google Maps is free, and you can see a map plus traffic content.
BlackBerry Traffic is also free, and does exactly what OnStar does, but also adds traffic info. It goes one better and will re-calculate the route live if you go off the path.
So the free ones are already better than OnStar, imagine what the paid apps can do.
A $79 portable will crush what any of those can do. Take the money you'd pay for a monthly subscription and get a good PND.
GM keeps pushing OnStar but the fact is most people don't renew it once the free trial ends.
Even for people who find this useful, I don't see why you wouldn't just use a smart phone and a free app that already does the same thing (Facebook, Google Maps, etc.).
I'm rooting for the Sonic, although I hate the rear of the hatchback. The sedan is much-more pleasing in proportions IMHO.
I do like that it's built in the 'States, and not even in bu****k Alabama or Mississippi. Michigan has had its demons, obviously, but at least they're getting a chance to do a new, mainstream product. Good for them.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I know what you mean, it's like they weren't sure where to stop, and just stopped abruptly. The front looks nice, though, and I bet that shape is practical for interior roominess.
I think we all need to adjust our price expectations.
One thing that helps bring things into perspective is to put some older car prices into an inflation calculator. For instance, remember back in 1986, when they were advertising brand-new Yugos for as low as $3990 and Hyundai Excels for as little as $4995? Well, adjust for inflation, and that $3,990 becomes $8217 in 2011 dollars, while the $4995 is $10,287!
The cheapest Hyundai Accent that I see on Fitzmall's site has an MSRP of $16,125, which is a lot more than the old Excel, and almost double what a Yugo cost. But, IMO you get a LOT more for your money. For one thing, that price includes an automatic transmission, air conditioning, power windows, locks, tilt wheel, ABS, and a whole slew of other standard features, many of which were probably the stuff of science fiction back in 1986.
Edmund's is still showing that you can get a stripper 2011 Versa for $9990. That's with no a/c, and I think this is the only car left for sale in the US that you can get without standard a/c. Probably almost impossible to find one, though. Cheapest Versa that Fitzmall is showing has an MSRP of $16,935! Their internet price is $15,062. And again, pretty well loaded, with auto, a/c, power windows, locks, abs, etc.
FWIW, $16,935 is the equivalent of $8223 back in 1986, and $16125 is only $7830.
I'm sure that either the Versa or Accent is worth much more than the $3000-4000 premium, in 1986 dollars, that it sets you back compared to a bare-bones Yugo or Excel!
I dont have onstar, never did.....just thought a live person would be helpful, a friend had a lexus, nav system wasnt very good, why would I pay for it?
I have many options with my phone, including great nav if I ever need it.
I've always had trouble with the EPA size ratings and designations for vehicles. To me, it's how the actual space can be utilized and is laid out versus what it measures overall. I mean, I can say something is 16 cubic feet, but that can be based on 1x2x8, 1x4x4, 1x1x16 or any other combination inbetween. for me, it's in the packaging. Another example, my neighbor was selling a small wood / glass door cabinet (like a small china / dish cabinet) and a couple came over with their SUV. Now, from the outside no mistake this was an SUV, not a CUV, WUV (Wannabe UV); they couldn't get the cabinet to fit in any way, shape or form. No sale. I should've tried to make a quick buck and offered to take it in my small pickup...
Anyway, it seems the Cruze is for the guys and the Elantra is for women because every one I see (am seeing more and more everyday) that how's it's been shaping up. In any event, it's nice to see something a little different in the sea of Honda Odysseys, Acuras and MBs.
Sorry for the delayed response - the couple vehicle programs I'm on take up a lot of time so can't respond / comment on here as much as I like.
I like the idea of adjusting for inflation. That's the real cause for all the price creep, well that plus the added content.
Edmund's is still showing that you can get a stripper 2011 Versa for $9990
As you mentioned, add freight, A/C, and you're probably closer to $12 grand, and the dealers simply never order those cars. Maybe if you special order and wait 8 weeks, you could get one for $12 grand, but why when you can get a *lot* more car for $15k or so?
Those Excels were horrible. I remember shopping for used ones back when I was in college, and 2 year old Excels were already beaters, and not even good ones at that.
Econoboxes have come a long way. That label may even be outdated completely.
Geez, I grew up on Chevys and most of my favorites aren't even on their list!
I'm sure the '57 will win for no other reason than, it's a '57. So many people forget that Ford actually outsold Chevy for the '57 model year.
The '63 Corvette should probably win for engineering.
My favorite Chevys are the '55, '61, '65 Impala Sport Coupe, '67 Camaro, and '65 Corvair Corsa turbocharged. Oh, also the '62 Corvette...outdated by that time, but great styling IMHO--forever reminiscent to me, of Tod and Buzz on "Route 66".
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I'm sure the '57 will win for no other reason than, it's a '57. So many people forget that Ford actually outsold Chevy for the '57 model year.
Yeah, you're probably right. It's amazing how often people will look at just any old 50's car and call it a "57 Chevy". I remember in 8th grade, when the movie "Christine" came out, a couple of girls were talking about it. One of them said it sounded stupid, who wants to see a movie about a car? The other one responded "Well, a '57 Chevy is NOT 'just' a car!" When I told her it was a '58 Plymouth, she said "A '58 Plymouth is NOT 'just' a car!"
And, I hate to say it, but on one or two occasions, I've had people refer to my '57 DeSoto as a '57 Chevy...
Comments
For now, I will laugh at the multiple times you fill up your gas hog! Let's talk when gas hits $5/gallon and you sweat when your tank hits 1/2!
BTW, if we ever travled together, your PUT would ALWAYS be watching my rear LED tail lights!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Market Cap has declined:
1954 - 1973 GM was ranked Number 1
1985 - 1999 GM was ranked Number 1
2003 - GM ranked Number 61!
2004 - Ranked #173
What a disaster!
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
So far Kia's growth is embarrassing GM. Stock price is a great indication.
Now we see if the Japanese comeback puts the champagne cork back in GM's bottle on Tuesday.
Regards,
OW
I'm sorry, you said a REAL truck? BWAHAHAHAHA!!
All I see in that photo is a glorified Tonka Toy that can't even come close to Ford or GM sales in pick-ups. And with good reason.
Since I'm in the construction/engineering business, I see and deal with all kinds of individuals and companies that actually USE their truck for business, and can't afford even missing ONE day of work due to equipment breakdowns. What do they drive/rely on?
Ford F-series? - check
Chevy Silverado and HD? - check
GMC Sierra and HD? - check
Ram? - to a lesser extent, but check
Toyota? Umm... Sorry, can't think of a single one!
Sorry, but Toyota wouldn't know a "real" truck if it pulled them out of a ditch. Their first attempt at a "full-size" version, the utterly gutless and 7/8th-scale T-100, was a joke. The first-gen Tundra? Apparently the name change did NOTHING, especially to 2000-2003 owners that dealt with frame rust that can drop the spare tire and eat away at brake lines. Toyota ended up recalling their trucks nationwide, not just the rust-belt states.
The current Tundra? Too little, too late...
Lets also add what the Detroit News has said about the "expensive and problematic" Tundra:
"Toyota spent more than a decade edging into the market with two smaller pickups before the 2007 Tundra, only to have its self-proclaimed most important vehicle ever for the U.S. run headlong into stronger competitors, a stumbling economy, a market shift away from pickups and now the company's own quality problems. With around $6 billion spent on the Tundra and more than 8 million vehicles now recalled for a variety of defects, it's worth asking whether Toyota's big pickup was a considered strategic move or a costly detour."
"Real" truck? Hardly...
As for the gas prices, it does suck but its the price some of us are willing to pay for a little freedom
BTW, if we did ever travel together i would probably drop my speed by 10-20 mph so i wouldn't have to look at that hideous taillight design.
Maybe that mattered 50-60 years ago, when you could down to the dealer and buy a vehicle somewhat similar. What do the NASCAR race-cars have in common with a stock vehicle -very little.
If you want to look at racing for how good a vehicle is, might I suggest you follow the Corvettes in a series like American Le Mans. A Corvette is about the only current GM I'd buy; or maybe the upcoming Chevy Sonic.
This was interesting (to me anyway):
"General Motors received nearly $17 million in job-training grants from the state of Tennessee nearly three years ago, tapping an unexpected source of cash at a time the automaker teetered on the brink of collapse, according to a published report.
Those grants made GM the biggest, single recipient of cash for job training from the Tennessee Department of Economic and Community Development, according to a database obtained by The Tennessean."
This money was for job training in Spring Hill. Those jobs then went to Lansing MI. :surprise:
General Motors No. 1 recipient of job-training grants in Tenn. (clarionledger.com)
OK, put down the crack pipe...
Sure, but nowadays Civics and Cruzes break $25k.
Just read about that today, lemme look back at Autoblog...found it:
Civic ($25,754 for EX-L model equipped with 17-inch wheels). For 140 horses and just 128 lb-ft.
Per Edmunds $26,750 for a Civic hybrid with nav/leather.
Cruze LTZ with every option checked ran $26,260 on Edmunds. That is for 138 horsepower.
Now Kia...
$30,895 gets you the Optima SX with the premium + touring + tech packages, so panoramic moonroof, heated and cooled leather seats with memory, heated rear seats, 18" alloys, Nav with traffic, backup cam, Infinity premium audio.
Knock off $2150 for the wheels you hate anyway, and give up the moonroof, but still have a well equipped turbo with nav/backup cam for under $29k.
$26k for 128 pound-feet, or $29k for 269 pound-feet?
More than double the torque, for those keeping score.
$26k for 138hp or $29k for 276hp?
Exactly double the power for $3000.
You won't find a better bargain in the automobile world (new).
Uh....that's cheap. You can hit $50k easily on an F series...
Totally different vehicle, for another discussion.
The Detroit News is about as pro-domestic biased as you get. Look where they're based.
owners that dealt with frame rust that can drop the spare tire and eat away at brake lines
Guess who supplied those frames? Dana, and US-based supplier.
OW is throwing mud, but it doesn't mean both sides have to revert to that.
Take a deep breath...
Gotta love GM.
Regards,
OW
Are you kidding? Maybe you could provide some details as to just exactly what are the "Chevrolet" parts, componets that were in number one finisher car driven by Menard, number two by Jeff Gordon.
Menard's, Gordon's cars are about as much "Chevrolet" as the "Menard", "DuPont" logos on their cars.
Maybe Toyota came in last because they're not used to making big pushrod V-8's that are still carbureted? :P
These are not Chevrolets, Toyotas, Fords. They are Childress, Penske, etc manufactured race cars.
Sadly, America's premier racing series, by number of followers, uses some antiquated technology. Too bad, US manufacturers don't have a world-class racing series such as the European (mostly) F1.
But yeah, there's some value there, and it's easier to look at than a Sonata to boot.
Panoramic Sunroof
4-Way Power Front Passenger Seat
Driver Seat Memory
Heated & Cooled Front Seats
Heated Rear Seats
Wheels: 18" Luxury Alloy
My OTD was $27,200.
Regards,
OW
I doubt the average Kia driver will like what happens when those tires need replacement too. Last set of tires on my E55 was $1200+ - after rebate.
Does your car have nav?
I had a '01 Tundra and an '03 4Runner with the 32 valve V8. A remarkable engine. I always wanted to take one of those motors, balance and blueprint it, and stick it in a light, RWD coupe.
Regards,
OW
2010 models had up to $3000 in rebates, though I doubt you can still find one. They had $1000 cash even when they were in plentiful supply.
Take that $29k model I suggested, haggle a bit, you're talking about $26-27k for an extremely competent mid-sizer. A lucky few at the very end of the model year may even have paid less.
Back to Chevy, it's the same sort of deal Uplanderguy got. Time it right, wait for the incentives, and get a tried-and-true model with all the bugs worked out of it. Great value.
I bet his Malibu didn't cost any more than a Cruze would have cost.
Where's the map? Can it even recalculate if you go off their chosen path, last time I looked it couldn't. They just read off the next turn like Mapquest does (circa 1995).
Any old cell phone app can do better than that.
Google Maps is free, and you can see a map plus traffic content.
BlackBerry Traffic is also free, and does exactly what OnStar does, but also adds traffic info. It goes one better and will re-calculate the route live if you go off the path.
So the free ones are already better than OnStar, imagine what the paid apps can do.
A $79 portable will crush what any of those can do. Take the money you'd pay for a monthly subscription and get a good PND.
GM keeps pushing OnStar but the fact is most people don't renew it once the free trial ends.
I paid for onstar for a few years and then dropped it on the Yukon. $200 for Safe & Sound....saved.
Regards,
OW
http://cnettv.cnet.com/?type=node&value=11443,10863&name=Car%20Tech&tag=rightCol- umnArea1.0
He calls the Optima's interior "one of my favorites" and compares it to Audi and Saab, no surprise since Schreyer previously worked for Audi.
They tend to focus on the tech and he says Kia's Nav head unit is good at the basics, nothing fancy, but solid and also very fast/responsive.
I'd get it because it addresses one of the few "cons" - poor rear visibility, with a backup cam.
fintail: Cooley didn't like those wheels either, apparently they also are flush and scratch curbs.
A review that good from Cooley is RARE, he pulls no punches. Do a quick search on the BlackBerry Bold 9900 - he crucifies it.
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/02/gm-launching-onstar-based-family-link-that-tr- acks-teen-drivers/
Even for people who find this useful, I don't see why you wouldn't just use a smart phone and a free app that already does the same thing (Facebook, Google Maps, etc.).
$15.4k to start for the hatch. The Aveo had a model that eeked in at under $10 grand, so this is a much higher asking price.
I like it, minus the D-pillar. I thought the Chevy Spark was designed better.
I think we all need to adjust our price expectations.
$15k is now the starting point. A well equipped subcompact is $17k.
A well equipped compact is $26k.
A loaded mid-size breaks $30k.
A loaded minivan can hit $46k.
Loaded pickups run $50 grand or more.
Loaded luxury SUVs easily break $60k.
I drove a BMW 5er and found the 6/turbo laggy, and much preferred the V8. So a mid-size German luxury car the way you'll likely want it? $90 grand.
Sales volumes are down, but it seems like prices have increased to make up for it.
I do like that it's built in the 'States, and not even in bu****k Alabama or Mississippi. Michigan has had its demons, obviously, but at least they're getting a chance to do a new, mainstream product. Good for them.
I know what you mean, it's like they weren't sure where to stop, and just stopped abruptly. The front looks nice, though, and I bet that shape is practical for interior roominess.
One thing that helps bring things into perspective is to put some older car prices into an inflation calculator. For instance, remember back in 1986, when they were advertising brand-new Yugos for as low as $3990 and Hyundai Excels for as little as $4995? Well, adjust for inflation, and that $3,990 becomes $8217 in 2011 dollars, while the $4995 is $10,287!
The cheapest Hyundai Accent that I see on Fitzmall's site has an MSRP of $16,125, which is a lot more than the old Excel, and almost double what a Yugo cost. But, IMO you get a LOT more for your money. For one thing, that price includes an automatic transmission, air conditioning, power windows, locks, tilt wheel, ABS, and a whole slew of other standard features, many of which were probably the stuff of science fiction back in 1986.
Edmund's is still showing that you can get a stripper 2011 Versa for $9990. That's with no a/c, and I think this is the only car left for sale in the US that you can get without standard a/c. Probably almost impossible to find one, though. Cheapest Versa that Fitzmall is showing has an MSRP of $16,935! Their internet price is $15,062. And again, pretty well loaded, with auto, a/c, power windows, locks, abs, etc.
FWIW, $16,935 is the equivalent of $8223 back in 1986, and $16125 is only $7830.
I'm sure that either the Versa or Accent is worth much more than the $3000-4000 premium, in 1986 dollars, that it sets you back compared to a bare-bones Yugo or Excel!
I have many options with my phone, including great nav if I ever need it.
Anyway, it seems the Cruze is for the guys and the Elantra is for women because every one I see (am seeing more and more everyday) that how's it's been shaping up. In any event, it's nice to see something a little different in the sea of Honda Odysseys, Acuras and MBs.
Sorry for the delayed response - the couple vehicle programs I'm on take up a lot of time so can't respond / comment on here as much as I like.
Edmund's is still showing that you can get a stripper 2011 Versa for $9990
As you mentioned, add freight, A/C, and you're probably closer to $12 grand, and the dealers simply never order those cars. Maybe if you special order and wait 8 weeks, you could get one for $12 grand, but why when you can get a *lot* more car for $15k or so?
Those Excels were horrible. I remember shopping for used ones back when I was in college, and 2 year old Excels were already beaters, and not even good ones at that.
Econoboxes have come a long way. That label may even be outdated completely.
I have to go with the '57.
Regards,
OW
This is the time of year to get a deal on any make of car.
You can probably get a bloated numb Impala for the price of a Cruze, too. I would prefer the latter.
Geez, I grew up on Chevys and most of my favorites aren't even on their list!
I'm sure the '57 will win for no other reason than, it's a '57. So many people forget that Ford actually outsold Chevy for the '57 model year.
The '63 Corvette should probably win for engineering.
My favorite Chevys are the '55, '61, '65 Impala Sport Coupe, '67 Camaro, and '65 Corvair Corsa turbocharged. Oh, also the '62 Corvette...outdated by that time, but great styling IMHO--forever reminiscent to me, of Tod and Buzz on "Route 66".
Yeah, you're probably right. It's amazing how often people will look at just any old 50's car and call it a "57 Chevy". I remember in 8th grade, when the movie "Christine" came out, a couple of girls were talking about it. One of them said it sounded stupid, who wants to see a movie about a car? The other one responded "Well, a '57 Chevy is NOT 'just' a car!" When I told her it was a '58 Plymouth, she said "A '58 Plymouth is NOT 'just' a car!"
And, I hate to say it, but on one or two occasions, I've had people refer to my '57 DeSoto as a '57 Chevy...