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Comments
It must of used Hydroboost, but I thought that system was only used in 3/4 ton trucks... Didn't GM have a recall on that or at least a TSB. Gotta love it when the PS fails and since the PS is also tied into the brake booster, you lose assist with both.
Nothing will create an Oh S#$& moment like losing braking and steering assist at the same time.
Concerning TCO:
All costs are itemized. Insurance, Tax and fees, depreciation, etc. are all separate. I'm not sure how they get their figures, but it is probably all work done by the dealer over 5 years.
So to bundle them all in one, you make the numbers closer than they really are.
Because many domestic cars are cheaper as used cars, I did a little research and found many are cheaper to operate than the more expensive foreign used cars. Also many domestic new cars are cheaper to operate over 5 years because the TCO takes into account the actual selling price of the vehicles or TMV rather than the MSRP.
There's a ton of information in that feature and many of the foreign fanboys
probably won't like it because it doesn't show much difference in the operating costs between domestic and foreign brands, and in many cases the domestics are less costly as new or used vehicles.
Heck, I've even heard a GM guy complain about GM stating the warranty period started when his vehicle was manufactured, not the date of his purchase to get out of an extended warranty claim! He was under the mileage limit, needless to say.
But the original issue is the New GM is acting EXACTLY like the Old GM in the Impala case. Don't you agree??
Regards,
OW
70% of my GM repairs are expected. Brushes wear down in alternators, factory water pumps get ruined by leftover metal filings at manufacture of the block, rubber seals, rusted brake pistons, rusted out fuel and brake lines. Starter solenoids. Corroded battery terminals. broken tire belt.
The unexpected stuff list is much storter: leaking rear a/c line, warped transmission control module housing, battery terminal falling off. 1/4 panel rust after 13 yrs.
But do you have anything to compare that to? Literally, I've NEVER replaced any of the items you list above on any car that I've had:
- 66 Bug, bought used, driven 180K miles
- 85 Jetta, bought new, driven 130K miles
- 92 Accord, bought new, driven 110K miles
- 94 Mercury Villager, bought new, driven 225K miles
- 98 Audi A4, bought new, driven 88K miles
- 05 Acura TL, bought new, currently at 111K miles
Based on my experiences I would NEVER expect to need to fix those things. Perhaps the rust issues were because of your climate? I'm in California (was it road salt related?).
And I've also never needed to fix or replace an AC compressor in any of those cars, all air conditioned except for the Bug.
Depreciation
Taxes/Tags
Insurance
Gasoline
Repairs
Maintenance
I could look it up, but I'm too lazy right now :P
In my own spreadsheet, which I tried to model after Edmund's TCO, one item I always had placing was Maryland's emissions test. It's only $14 every two years. I think I threw it under "maintenance".
The only car I ever had with any of the problems you list as "expected from a GM" was my Dodge. All my other cars never had those issues.
If you keep a car long enough, or buy one that's high-mileage enough, and eventually those things will break. But, the age and mileage are going to affect my opinion of the brand. For instance, the starter died on my '68 Dodge Dart, but the car had over 300K miles on it, so I'm not gonna hold that against Chrysler. I also had the starter die on a 1979 Chrysler Newport, but that sucker probably had 240,000+ miles on it by then, so again, I'm not gonna gripe about it. Now, when the starter went out on my '89 Gran Fury, which only had around 80,000 miles at the time, that had me a little miffed. My mechanic told me that it was the same starter that a Honda Accord used, which made me feel a little better...except it does beg the question of why Chrysler would use a starter meant for a tiny 4-cyl on a copcar 318!
But in all seriousness, GM makes fine cars as of late. Now if you want to get into a real mess of headaches and horror stories, just talk to VW owners.
I've owned 3 GM 4.3 engines. Two bought used. They all have replaced water pumps. The replacements have never failed even with twice the miles of the originals. 187k, 132k, 124k for a total of nearly 444k on 4.3 engines in 34 years of ownership. The '87 alt had a hung brush since day 1, and still lasted 13 years. The '98 just went this month after 13 years. Do you still have your Audi to compare to my worst GM out of a dozen? It's a '98.
Agreed on the effects of the weather and salt in the midwest vs. California. But I didn't have "short times of ownership" compared to most - all cars but one over 100K miles; two cars over 220K miles. Longest owned was 20 years; shortest was 6 years.
I got rid of my Audi earlier than any other car, at 6 years and 88K miles. I had a hard to diagnose (for the dealer) cooling problem where the car would start to run hot on a hot day, or climbing hills. Spent a fair amount of money on dealer trying to find and fix the problem. Decided to get rid of it, feeling that future repairs might get really expensive. But I really did like that car, and really miss it. It was a '98 Audi A4, 6 cyl, stick.
The Villager of those days was the same as the Nissan Quest of the same era, except for the badge and taillights. The engine and tranny were Nissan (which is why we were willing to buy a "Mercury"). The body and rest of the vehicle was Ford/Mercury. Built in the US by the UAW. Upon brand-new delivery it had a number of problems - the glovebox and the reading lights were installed crooked; the speedometer occasionally wildly swung from the current speed to zero and back again; and the sound insulation pad on the engine compartment hood was ripped up. So assembly was pretty shoddy.
Yet the mechanical side of the Villager was excellent. We fixed the cylinder head stud bolts at 140K (a known problem), but other than that the engine and tranny were solid when we sold it to our gardner at 225K. Per our gardener, it's now in Mexico where it soldiers on, towing a small trailer at 250K miles. That Nissan engine and tranny were really solid!
All of my GM's were maintained according to GM service guidelines.
I RELIGIOUSLY dump all GM's under 100K. My mistake was buying new ones after. But I have atoned for my sins!
The pain is slowly fading away....
Regards,
OW
So anyone like to guess why Wall Street is pummeling GM's stock?
Perhaps because if another recession is expected, durable goods (cars) would be disproportionately affected, and GM is still fragile?
Although, it looks like the market is hitting all the automakers, but GM is getting hit really badly. I do remember when the stock was intro'd, it was predicted that it would eventually level off around $18/share, so maybe that will be the basement.
Careful saying things like that. Don't jinx yourself, no car is that good.
Isn't the Cruze designed by Koreans? Built here, IIRC, but designed there.
It did use a 3.0 SOHC Nissan v6, but I don't think it was a vq series IIRC VQ's are DOHC.
We had a '96 Villager that was a very good van. Drove nice, reliable, though a bit under powered.
Peugoet? They did it first.
big swooshes down the side
Hyundai only. Public seems to like it given the sales spikes.
Can't see how anyone with eyes would choose a Sonata over an Optima.
Even that isn't a guarantee. The powertrain warranty past 36k is far from comprehensive.
My Expedition had 59k (still within the 60k powertrain warranty) when a coil pack failed, which fouled a spark plug, which led to 4 figure bill (thanks to ford's half-assed engineering), none of it covered under warranty. All of the repairs I've had on the Expedition would have fallen outside of the powertrain warranty. Even if Ford would match GM's 100k warranty it wouldn't have helped me.
from GM's website.
Exclusions: Excluded from the powertrain coverage are sensors, wiring, connectors, engine radiator, coolant hoses, coolant and heater core. Coverage on the engine cooling system begins at the inlet to the water pump and ends with the thermostat housing and/or outlet that attaches to the return hose. Also excluded are the entire pressurized fuel system (in-tank fuel pump, pressure lines, fuel rail(s), regulator, injectors and return line) as well as the Engine/Powertrain Control Module and/or module programming.
that's just for the engine coverage. under each powertrain component, there is a list of exclusions.
Basically everything excluded are the parts that are more likely to fail.
http://www.chevrolet.com/owners/warranty/
Lots of crappy styling has sold well throughout history, doesn't make the styling any better.
Glad the 'Bu is perfect for you.
Regards,
OW
Locally, near you, perhaps, but we've seen data that shows Hyundai is not dumping many of those in fleets, at all.
Demand is strong and retail sales are more profitable, and Hyundai is lucky enough to be able to choose buyers at this point.
So much for 100K powertrain warranty.
Does Hyundai's warranty for 100K and double the length of time have a similar long list of what is not covered?
Looks like they've cut fleet sales in half, basically. Plus all the growth is on the retail side.
So I guess all those rentals you're seeing are probably 2010s, and they should become half as common once the rental companies refresh their cars.
In the context of this GM thread, we're talking about 1/3rd as many fleet cars. Numbers in your region may vary.
I guess bailouts can work...
10% (at the very least) is not an insignificant number. Hyundai can choose prices more than buyers. If Enterprise rolls up and wants to buy a load of Sonatas at MSRP, they won't be turned away.
9% actually, down from 20%.
You're not incorrect, you're just outdated in your thinking.
Enterprise never has and never will pay MSRP. You don't make money on fleet sales, though it may help with economies of scale or help meet a sales target you might otherwise miss. Example: UAW contract requires you keep an assembly line chugging along...
Hyundai doesn't have that problem.
General Motors Co. hit a new intra-day low Monday since its stock went public, with its shares falling nearly 4 percent in heavy trading.
At 12:30 p.m., with 12.5 million shares trading hands, GM declined 82 cents to $21.34, down 3.7 percent.
GM's stock price has decreased 35 percent from its $33 IPO price in November. The stock rose as high as $39.48 earlier this year.
Since July 22, GM stock is down 29 percent.
The company's market capitalization is $33.5 billion — less than the $35 billion in cash on hand.
The markets — which have fallen broadly in recent weeks — paid little notice to GM's $2.5 billion in second-quarter profits.
The sell-off has also hurt the federal government's 26.5 percent equity stake in GM. The government has recovered $23.1 billion of its $49.5 billion bailout. At current trading prices, the government would lose about $16 billion of its GM bailout.
Ford Motor Co. is off 4 cents Monday to $9.94 a share — near its 52-week-low of $9.81. Ford shares have fallen 25 percent since July 22.
Auto stocks have been taking a beating — in part because of a series of analyst reports reducing forecasts for second-half auto sales. Investors are also worried about the possibility of a double-dip recession.
Guess if Enterprise wanted to buy Cruzes and Malibus at full MSRP, GM would increase fleet rates as high as the sky!
Regards,
OW
It seems Hyundai provides a better warranty, but they certainly have their exclusions too.
Seems Hyundai provides a better base warranty for 5/60k and a better rust warranty.
http://www.hyundaiusa.com/assurance/america-best-warranty.aspx
This is all fairly meaningless to me. I've never bought a car because of the warranty and I doubt I ever will. If I want a better warranty, I'll buy the vehicle I want and buy and a more comprehensive extended warranty.
I never said Enterprise pays MSRP, but if they did, Hyundai wouldn't have a problem with a huge purchase.
Hyundai does have unionized labor back in the bailed out and coddled home market, right?
Yes, just like Good 'Ole American GM!
GM is ADDICTED to leases. Have been for decades. They lead the pack. Now that Caddy is reducing leases, sales have diminished markedly.
Regards,
OW