New GM did not assume liability for old GM’s design choices, conduct or alleged breaches of liability under the warranty, and its terms expressly preclude money damages,”
Granted I don't blame new GM for trying to forget the old GM.
Funny, "the new GM" did $2,000 worth of warranty work on my five-year old vehicle for free, at 79K miles, with no extended warranty. I'd call that 'reaching out'.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Funny, "the new GM" did $2,000 worth of warranty work on my five-year old vehicle for free, at 79K miles, with no extended warranty. I'd call that 'reaching out'.
So given the original story, does that mean that New GM can do whatever it does, or does not, feel like doing re: Old GM warranty work?
So do you think "the New GM" could afford to do $2,000 of out-of-warranty work on everyone who has a 3-6 year old GM? Say 3 model years x the number of vehicles they produced. What's that 4 million vehicles / year x 3 years x $2,000. 12M x $2,000 ! I think that would be $24 billion!
So I guess everyone can't expect $2,000 no matter how nice they talk, right? Or Mr. Obama or Mr. Geithner will have to write some more checks to the New GM right?
I don't live in a world of "alls". I know what worked for me and I think it would work for others if they took a similar approach. I also don't think every five-year old GM car needs $2K of work.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I also don't think every five-year old GM car needs $2K of work.
Yeah, hopefully not! Just out of curiosity, I added up the repair costs on my 2000 Intrepid. Wish I had a GM example to use, but that Trep was the only car I bought brand-new. A few of my GM vehicles over the years were bought by family members new ('85 Silverado, '80 Malibu, '86 Monte Carlo, '85 LeSabre) and I know none of them had accumulated $2000 in repairs in their first 5 years, let alone needed $2000 around the 5 year mark. But that was a long time ago, and with inflation dollar amounts were different in those days.
With my 2000 Intrepid, once I factor out maintenance and wear and tear items (belts, hoses, tires, brake pads, fluids, etc) and things that weren't the car's fault (getting broken into, having a wheel stolen, stripping the oil pan, etc), at the 5 year mark, which incidentally was also the 100,000 mile mark, I was into it for repairs to the tune of around $727. That included a leaky thermostat housing (~$300), rear door rubber seal ($41...all of them ended up shrinking, but after I bought the first I learned how to adjust the others), the dealer's attempt to fix my oil pressure light ($317 to no avail, but then a TSB fixed it), new front rotors ($60, and I put 'em on myself), and a few taillight bulbs (~$9).
And I guess you could argue that the rotors and taillight bulbs were a maintenance item, and I should have argued with the dealer about that $317 to replace the sending unit and flush the engine, since it didn't work.
Overall though, when I combine repairs and maintenance, I ended up around $3400 at the 5 year, 100K mile mark. That included new front brake pads at 39K, 69K, and 98K, new tires at 30K and 76K, transmission services at 30/60/90K (I was probably a bit anal about that, but at least the tranny never failed!), a coolant flush and new belts at 86K, a $250 insurance deductible and $350 for a Viper alarm, after the car got broken into at Six Flags America, 27 oil changes (mostly done myself), various air filters and pcv valves, a changeout of the spark plugs at 51K, and new rear brakes at the same time, a few windshield wipers, and probably a few odds and ends I'm missing.
FWIW, I broke $2K mark in repairs around 140,000 miles and 7 1/2 years. I had to have the camshaft and crankshaft position sensors replaced, and a vacuum leak fixed, and that put me to around $2500. Final repair tally, when the car was totaled at 10 years and 150,000 miles, was around $3970. The a/c compressor blew, to the tune of around $1300, in early 2009, at 144K miles (I partly blame myself for that, because I knew it was low on freon, but was trying to hold off until warm weather to get it fixed), and then the oil pressure switch went at 146,000 and cost around $175. Then nothing else, until it got totaled 6 months later. One thing that really grated me though, was that I just renewed its registration and then 9 days later it got totaled! :mad: Luckily, I was able to transfer those tags to the Park Ave when I bought it, so I was able to recoup that cost.
Heck, I don't think I needed $2K of work in 22 years of my 1989 Cadillac Brougham. My 2007 Cadillac DTS is five model years old and not once have I had to bring it in for any unscheduled maintenance or repair. We've had similar success with my wife's 2005 Buick LaCrosse.
Overall though, when I combine repairs and maintenance, I ended up around $3400 at the 5 year, 100K mile mark.
God, this is depressing. I just looked up my total maintenance expenses (tires, oil changes, everything but fuel) on my expedition and previous Suburban going back to '05 (quicken). During that time I've driven about 120k miles and the total for all maintenance has been $13k.
Of the $13k. $7577 was for the Suburban and $5428 has been the Expedition over about equal miles for each.
Of the $13k. $7577 was for the Suburban and $5428 has been the Expedition over about equal miles for each.
Ouch! And the disturbing thing is, since that 120,000 miles was 60,000 per vehicle, none of it was at really high mileage. I know you bought the Expedition when it was a year or so old. How many miles did it have on it again? And I can't remember, did you buy the Suburban new, or was it also a year or two old?
Now granted, you do a lot of towing, so I'd expect to see some increase in maintenance and repairs, but still, $13K sounds pretty evil!
As for my Intrepid, I just added it up, and the total for maintenance/repairs, over the 10 years and 150K miles I had it, was about $8775. The first 5 years/100K miles were ~$3425 and the next 5 years/50K miles were ~$5350.
So if anything, I guess that's a good example of how cars do tend to cost more to maintain/repair at higher miles. I imagine if I traded cars every 60K miles or so, maintenance/repair costs should be really low, although I'd really eat it with regards to resale.
As for the Park Ave, I'm into it so far for $543 in repairs/maintenance, over the course of 20 months and around 17,000 miles. And one reason that's as high as it is, is because I've been taking it in to have the oil changed, rather than doing it myself.
That cost is about to go up though, as it's soon going to be due for a transmission service, new tires, and it feels like one of the ball joints is getting a bit loose.
Thing is, in today's world its not really that hard to hit $2K in repairs on any vehicle. Major engine, tranny or A/C work is probably going to put you there. Shop and parts rates have gone through the roof.
I know you bought the Expedition when it was a year or so old. How many miles did it have on it again? And I can't remember, did you buy the Suburban new, or was it also a year or two old?
IIRC, the Suburban was 3 years old with like 35k miles and the Expedition was 1 year old with 30k.
Both started giving me problems after I had them about a year or two (I didn't put many miles on the Suburban at first because I had both the Pathfinder and burb for about 2 years). The first expense in the Suburban was the transmission at 47k and the first expense on the expedition was a coil pack the the spark plug fiasco at 59k.
I leased the Nissan Pathfinder in 01 and it only required once set of tires, front brakes, and an 2 o2 sensor over 60k and I towed more miles with it than either the burb or the Expe. But it was new when I got it and and the 1st o2 sensor was replaced under warranty (o2 sensors where an issue that year)
I think the Suburban had 105k or so on it when I traded it in '08. I'm at 91k on the Expedition currently. I'd like to get another few years out of it w/o spending a ton on repairs, but we'll see.
I don't know what I'll replace it with. I might switch to a 1/2 ton pickup.
Thing is, in today's world its not really that hard to hit $2K in repairs on any vehicle.
No particularly if they have a lot of equipment. I spent around $400 on a window motor/regulator and $500 for a bad module that controlled the auto climate system on the Expedition (blower fan was stuck on high and it wouldn't shut off once it was turned on).
The suburban didn't have auto climate control, but it still used electric actuators for the temp control. I paid like $600 for replace the control and some type of damper door actuator (the heat was stuck on and in the winter it let cold air into the passenger foot area, wife wasn't not happy at all with the latter).
Likewise. I've had those fail on Ford products, however.
I don't think I've ever had a power steering pump fail on a GM product. My grandmother's cousin just had the one fail in her Caddy, but it's an '89 Coupe DeVille, so after all this time I won't hold that against GM!
I did have it fail in my '68 Dart, '79 Newport, '79 5th Ave (leaking at the pulley; haven't dealt with it yet), and '79 New Yorker (was able to get this one re-sealed).
I've never had a power steering pump fail at a young age, though, on ANY car.
I was told it was a pretty common problem for the GMT-800's, not sure about the 900's. IIRC, my friend had one fail on at least one of his GMC pickups and on his wifes Suburban. All happened at low speed, and for his Burb, it was time for another Intermediate Steering shaft anyways so it was at least convenient!
The PS pump never failed on my Suburban but it did have issues. It would occasionally loose assist at parking lot speeds when it was cold out. Making parking a real PITA.
When my wife turned in her '07 GP it had about 85k and the steering pump have a very loud groan all of the time. I almost sounded like a supercharger/ gear driven cam when revved. I've hear other late model GPs make the same sound. It worked fine though.
another Intermediate Steering shaft
Seems like 1/2 of GM's cars and trucks have had that problem going back over a decade.
The fact that the creation of Government Motors would wipe out all of GM's old lawsuits and liabilities was well documented when the merits (or lack thereof) were being argued about regarding bailouts of companies run into the ground by their own managment and workers.
What I don't get is why they stopped at that point. Government Motors should have told previous buyers their warranties were null and void effective immediately. However, "NEW" Goverment Motors have a 100K powertrain warranty *(5 years and under)* Think of how much taxpayer money could have been saved by simply eliminating their warranty burdens from the past, period, end of story.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Obviously the stock market has been in turmoil, but what's up with GM stock. Down 8% today currently trading under $22/share.
Andre, I hope you sold it a long time ago!
Yeah, I bailed back in April, at $32.38 per share. At that point I had taken about a 5% hit from the $35.46 I paid for it about 5 months earlier.
I used the proceeds to buy some Amazon.com, which peaked on August 1st at around $227/sh (I paid around $183). Right now it's at a slight loss, down maybe 3% from what I paid.
But I'll take a 3% loss to a 38.5% (which is where I'd be if I held the GM) any day!
One thing that really grated me though, was that I just renewed its registration and then 9 days later it got totaled! Luckily, I was able to transfer those tags to the Park Ave when I bought it, so I was able to recoup that cost.
That really upset me with CA registration which is ultra super expensive. My wife's Civic got totalled literally 2 or 3 days after registration renewal! You'd expect to be charged 2 or 3/365ths of the charge, and refunded the rest, but the DMV/Insurance companies in cahoots somehow figured a 85% refund was enough. How less than a week out of 52 equals 15%, I'll never know.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I don't see much of a difference between domestic or foreign brands
If you ignored Nissan, you'd see the difference plain as night and day! No one ever said Nissan was as good as Toyota or Honda. Those two companies are gods when it comes to durability.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I don't think politeness should have anything to do with it. You either stand behind the products, or you don't!
I think uplander was just indicating that it pays to be polite. Which I agree with in almost every case (even I have my limits, but I can only remember 1 or 2 times in my life when I really got visibly upset at any customer service situation).
I have earth shattering news. Positive news about GM.
Drove by a Cruze today and took a good look at it while passing him. Good looking car! Tightly built, looks like it was built with some quality in mind. The exterior looks solid! I don't see any ultra large 2" panel gaps normally associated with domestic vehicles. All of the gaps, seams, connections seemed closed in.
I give the exterior an A-, however, how much do they cost over a Cobalt?
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The pump blew at low speed and the steering and brakes failed. Lucky my wife was going under 20 mph. Police could not steer it off the intersection the piece of junk was blocking so they called for a tow...On-Star said 1/2 hour but the Cops said NOW.
As much as I'm going to fight tooth and nail to get out of it, I have a Snuze booked for a rental in California next month.
I usually demand (ask politely ) a foriegn option because I like the way Asian cars drive and their lightweight nature, especially on the winding, scenic roads I look for... but I don't always succeed.
What I do find humorous is the company I am renting from lists the Snuze as an "Intermediate class" while the older Cobalt is classified as a compact.
Full agreement with UL on being polite. No reason to be rude. But being direct by saying "I want 100% payment, please, or it's the last car I buy from you, thanks very much!" is not rude. Just being real.
For 5 years and 60K miles, honestly most of those figures sound high to me. I just went back to the spreadsheet I have for my old Intrepid, and in the first 60,000 miles, total repairs/maintenance only came up to around $1,793. I drove a lot back then though, delivering pizzas part time, and also drove out to Texas twice, and it hit 60K miles in about 28 months.
At the 5 year mark, I was at 100,000 miles, and still only at around $3425 total.
Now, I did buy that car in November of 1999, so I'd expect some price creep due to inflation. But my $1793 figure is also a little padded, because I included the insurance deductible from when my car got broken into, and the Viper alarm I bought as a result. That's $600 right there. That wasn't the car's fault, but it was still a cost, so I had to lump it in somewhere! I lumped it under "repair", but maybe it should have fallen under the "insurance" category, or perhaps a misc category?
Anyway, yank that out, and that car didn't even run up $1200 in maint/repairs in the first 60K miles, and the 5 yr/100K mark was only around $2800.
Doesn't it include insurance? Which varies widely for one, and might punish foreign cars unfairly (since they hold high value longer). Whereas you can total out a domestic for pennies on the dollar.
That's probably why it's high. Along with registration and other yearly fees.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
Granted I don't blame new GM for trying to forget the old GM.
Not if you put enough money down!
Regards,
OW
So given the original story, does that mean that New GM can do whatever it does, or does not, feel like doing re: Old GM warranty work?
So I guess everyone can't expect $2,000 no matter how nice they talk, right? Or Mr. Obama or Mr. Geithner will have to write some more checks to the New GM right?
yeah, mine needed $6k worth.
RtR
"Thirty years ago, GM quality was the best in the world," the print ad starts. "
TwentyTwo years ago, it wasn't."Yeah, hopefully not! Just out of curiosity, I added up the repair costs on my 2000 Intrepid. Wish I had a GM example to use, but that Trep was the only car I bought brand-new. A few of my GM vehicles over the years were bought by family members new ('85 Silverado, '80 Malibu, '86 Monte Carlo, '85 LeSabre) and I know none of them had accumulated $2000 in repairs in their first 5 years, let alone needed $2000 around the 5 year mark. But that was a long time ago, and with inflation dollar amounts were different in those days.
With my 2000 Intrepid, once I factor out maintenance and wear and tear items (belts, hoses, tires, brake pads, fluids, etc) and things that weren't the car's fault (getting broken into, having a wheel stolen, stripping the oil pan, etc), at the 5 year mark, which incidentally was also the 100,000 mile mark, I was into it for repairs to the tune of around $727. That included a leaky thermostat housing (~$300), rear door rubber seal ($41...all of them ended up shrinking, but after I bought the first I learned how to adjust the others), the dealer's attempt to fix my oil pressure light ($317 to no avail, but then a TSB fixed it), new front rotors ($60, and I put 'em on myself), and a few taillight bulbs (~$9).
And I guess you could argue that the rotors and taillight bulbs were a maintenance item, and I should have argued with the dealer about that $317 to replace the sending unit and flush the engine, since it didn't work.
Overall though, when I combine repairs and maintenance, I ended up around $3400 at the 5 year, 100K mile mark. That included new front brake pads at 39K, 69K, and 98K, new tires at 30K and 76K, transmission services at 30/60/90K (I was probably a bit anal about that, but at least the tranny never failed!), a coolant flush and new belts at 86K, a $250 insurance deductible and $350 for a Viper alarm, after the car got broken into at Six Flags America, 27 oil changes (mostly done myself), various air filters and pcv valves, a changeout of the spark plugs at 51K, and new rear brakes at the same time, a few windshield wipers, and probably a few odds and ends I'm missing.
FWIW, I broke $2K mark in repairs around 140,000 miles and 7 1/2 years. I had to have the camshaft and crankshaft position sensors replaced, and a vacuum leak fixed, and that put me to around $2500. Final repair tally, when the car was totaled at 10 years and 150,000 miles, was around $3970. The a/c compressor blew, to the tune of around $1300, in early 2009, at 144K miles (I partly blame myself for that, because I knew it was low on freon, but was trying to hold off until warm weather to get it fixed), and then the oil pressure switch went at 146,000 and cost around $175. Then nothing else, until it got totaled 6 months later. One thing that really grated me though, was that I just renewed its registration and then 9 days later it got totaled! :mad: Luckily, I was able to transfer those tags to the Park Ave when I bought it, so I was able to recoup that cost.
God, this is depressing. I just looked up my total maintenance expenses (tires, oil changes, everything but fuel) on my expedition and previous Suburban going back to '05 (quicken). During that time I've driven about 120k miles and the total for all maintenance has been $13k.
Of the $13k. $7577 was for the Suburban and $5428 has been the Expedition over about equal miles for each.
So much for domestics being cheaper to maintain.
Ouch! And the disturbing thing is, since that 120,000 miles was 60,000 per vehicle, none of it was at really high mileage. I know you bought the Expedition when it was a year or so old. How many miles did it have on it again? And I can't remember, did you buy the Suburban new, or was it also a year or two old?
Now granted, you do a lot of towing, so I'd expect to see some increase in maintenance and repairs, but still, $13K sounds pretty evil!
As for my Intrepid, I just added it up, and the total for maintenance/repairs, over the 10 years and 150K miles I had it, was about $8775. The first 5 years/100K miles were ~$3425 and the next 5 years/50K miles were ~$5350.
So if anything, I guess that's a good example of how cars do tend to cost more to maintain/repair at higher miles. I imagine if I traded cars every 60K miles or so, maintenance/repair costs should be really low, although I'd really eat it with regards to resale.
As for the Park Ave, I'm into it so far for $543 in repairs/maintenance, over the course of 20 months and around 17,000 miles. And one reason that's as high as it is, is because I've been taking it in to have the oil changed, rather than doing it myself.
That cost is about to go up though, as it's soon going to be due for a transmission service, new tires, and it feels like one of the ball joints is getting a bit loose.
Isn't that true, though? Cop car, cop suspension. Steel wheels, everything heavy duty.
Those amounts are anecdotal. According to Edmunds True Cost to Own
over 5 years and 60k miles the total of repairs and maintenance are:
Suburban: $4400
Expedition: $4000
for perspective:
Toyota Tundra: $4250
For common mid size cars:
Accord: $3250
Malibu: $3900
Camry: $3450
Altima: $4250
Fusion: $4100
I don't see much of a difference between domestic or foreign brands
IIRC, the Suburban was 3 years old with like 35k miles and the Expedition was 1 year old with 30k.
Both started giving me problems after I had them about a year or two (I didn't put many miles on the Suburban at first because I had both the Pathfinder and burb for about 2 years). The first expense in the Suburban was the transmission at 47k and the first expense on the expedition was a coil pack the the spark plug fiasco at 59k.
I leased the Nissan Pathfinder in 01 and it only required once set of tires, front brakes, and an 2 o2 sensor over 60k and I towed more miles with it than either the burb or the Expe. But it was new when I got it and and the 1st o2 sensor was replaced under warranty (o2 sensors where an issue that year)
I think the Suburban had 105k or so on it when I traded it in '08. I'm at 91k on the Expedition currently. I'd like to get another few years out of it w/o spending a ton on repairs, but we'll see.
I don't know what I'll replace it with. I might switch to a 1/2 ton pickup.
No particularly if they have a lot of equipment. I spent around $400 on a window motor/regulator and $500 for a bad module that controlled the auto climate system on the Expedition (blower fan was stuck on high and it wouldn't shut off once it was turned on).
The suburban didn't have auto climate control, but it still used electric actuators for the temp control. I paid like $600 for replace the control and some type of damper door actuator (the heat was stuck on and in the winter it let cold air into the passenger foot area, wife wasn't not happy at all with the latter).
I love it, reminds me of the '65 Lincoln Continental used in the show Entourage.
But when one does, as in my case ($4K), I'm sure you might feel differently about GM. But since you are Golden, I understand your love for GM!
Regards,
OW
A/C compressor
Power Steering Pump
MAP Sensor
Air Shock
Air Bag Sensor
Regards,
OW
I'm glad you got good service, and I agree that being polite is always the best policy. But that really doesn't answer the question.
I don't think I've ever had a power steering pump fail on a GM product. My grandmother's cousin just had the one fail in her Caddy, but it's an '89 Coupe DeVille, so after all this time I won't hold that against GM!
I did have it fail in my '68 Dart, '79 Newport, '79 5th Ave (leaking at the pulley; haven't dealt with it yet), and '79 New Yorker (was able to get this one re-sealed).
I've never had a power steering pump fail at a young age, though, on ANY car.
When my wife turned in her '07 GP it had about 85k and the steering pump have a very loud groan all of the time. I almost sounded like a supercharger/ gear driven cam when revved. I've hear other late model GPs make the same sound. It worked fine though.
another Intermediate Steering shaft
Seems like 1/2 of GM's cars and trucks have had that problem going back over a decade.
Yeah, I remember them too. Seemed like they all had loud PS pumps.
Andre, I hope you sold it a long time ago!
What I don't get is why they stopped at that point. Government Motors should have told previous buyers their warranties were null and void effective immediately. However, "NEW" Goverment Motors have a 100K powertrain warranty *(5 years and under)* Think of how much taxpayer money could have been saved by simply eliminating their warranty burdens from the past, period, end of story.
Andre, I hope you sold it a long time ago!
Yeah, I bailed back in April, at $32.38 per share. At that point I had taken about a 5% hit from the $35.46 I paid for it about 5 months earlier.
I used the proceeds to buy some Amazon.com, which peaked on August 1st at around $227/sh (I paid around $183). Right now it's at a slight loss, down maybe 3% from what I paid.
But I'll take a 3% loss to a 38.5% (which is where I'd be if I held the GM) any day!
That really upset me with CA registration which is ultra super expensive. My wife's Civic got totalled literally 2 or 3 days after registration renewal! You'd expect to be charged 2 or 3/365ths of the charge, and refunded the rest, but the DMV/Insurance companies in cahoots somehow figured a 85% refund was enough. How less than a week out of 52 equals 15%, I'll never know.
Whoever told you that was either:
A) A mechanic for domestic vehicles.
C) owned big 3 stock.
D) worked for the Big 3 in some way (car salesman, dealers)
If you ignored Nissan, you'd see the difference plain as night and day! No one ever said Nissan was as good as Toyota or Honda. Those two companies are gods when it comes to durability.
And I responded with, "All of it, 100%, if they expect me to ever buy an Audi again!" That was parts AND labor.
53,000 miles, it better be 100%.
I don't think politeness should have anything to do with it. You either stand behind the products, or you don't!
I think uplander was just indicating that it pays to be polite. Which I agree with in almost every case (even I have my limits, but I can only remember 1 or 2 times in my life when I really got visibly upset at any customer service situation).
Drove by a Cruze today and took a good look at it while passing him. Good looking car! Tightly built, looks like it was built with some quality in mind. The exterior looks solid! I don't see any ultra large 2" panel gaps normally associated with domestic vehicles. All of the gaps, seams, connections seemed closed in.
I give the exterior an A-, however, how much do they cost over a Cobalt?
Regards,
OW
I usually demand (ask politely
What I do find humorous is the company I am renting from lists the Snuze as an "Intermediate class" while the older Cobalt is classified as a compact.
Regards,
OW
At the 5 year mark, I was at 100,000 miles, and still only at around $3425 total.
Now, I did buy that car in November of 1999, so I'd expect some price creep due to inflation. But my $1793 figure is also a little padded, because I included the insurance deductible from when my car got broken into, and the Viper alarm I bought as a result. That's $600 right there. That wasn't the car's fault, but it was still a cost, so I had to lump it in somewhere! I lumped it under "repair", but maybe it should have fallen under the "insurance" category, or perhaps a misc category?
Anyway, yank that out, and that car didn't even run up $1200 in maint/repairs in the first 60K miles, and the 5 yr/100K mark was only around $2800.
V6 power? :surprise:
Doesn't it include insurance? Which varies widely for one, and might punish foreign cars unfairly (since they hold high value longer). Whereas you can total out a domestic for pennies on the dollar.
That's probably why it's high. Along with registration and other yearly fees.