BTW that's Edmunds review, nice MPG improvements. 30mpg highway for the V6, 35 mpg for the 2.5l, with a power bump to boot. Hybrid gains an impressive +7mpg.
Sorry but GM's mild hybrids are doomed when compared to those numbers.
Still seems like Hyundai makes the benchmark numbers for the volume base models, with 35mpg plus 200hp, though.
I was told by one very indignant person in a toyota discussion that there wasn't a single part in come between the Avalon and Camry
That person certainly didn't have a clue (I don't think any mainstream manufacturer produces a vehicle that doesn't use parts from the corporate parts bin). It was well known the Avalon was based on a stretched Camry platform and it didn't take a genius to figure out they used the same v6 powertrain etc. Heck, they were built in the same plant (I don't know if they still are).
It's going to be hard for GM to price the 2013 Malibu. The 2012 Camry was reduced in price.
Guess the incentives from GM will continue. They are King Incentive anyway.
There will be four trim packages from which to choose, and despite the significant improvements in the model, any 2012 Camry will be priced close to or less than a comparably-equipped 2011.
The 2011 Camry L, the base model produced in very low volume and sold almost exclusively to fleets, starts at $20,195. The new 2012 Camry L will start at $21,995 (plus $760 for destination), the core 2012 Camry LE package for comfort and value will be priced at $22,500. The sportier Camry SE, currently priced at $22,965, will start at $23,000. The premium trim package Camry XLE ($26,725 for MY 2011), will start at $24,725, a $2,000 reduction. Toyota notes that comparably equipped, prices for all trim levels have dropped.
Rear spoilers on FWD vehicles crack me up...everyone does it, though.
Rear spoilers crack me up on most mainstream vehicles. That said, a fwd vehicle may still need a spoiler or other type of air deflector to provide down force (at very high speeds on a track etc). You certainly wouldn't want lift at high speeds regardless of which wheels are driven.
But yes, a Malibu, Camry, Accord, etc really don't need a stupid wing on the back. Rear wings on the back of pickup trucks really crack me up too.
BTW that's Edmunds review, nice MPG improvements. 30mpg highway for the V6, 35 mpg for the 2.5l, with a power bump to boot. Hybrid gains an impressive +7mpg.
I don't want to jump on the Toyota bandwagon, but reading that Edmund's review, it does sound pretty impressive, and it definitely shows how this class of car is improving.
Hopefully, it'll keep GM on their toes, and they'll work hard at keeping the Malibu competitive.
It's interesting to see how that Camry, as well as other cars in this class, are continuing to grow in some dimensions. 58" of front seat shoulder room is pretty generous for a midsized car. That's actually more than your typical midsized car of the late 70's, as they started downsizing. Back then, I think GM's cars like the '78 Malibu and similar cars were the most generous, with around 57.5" of shoulder room, and most competing cars of similar size were around 56-57".
Even your typical pre-downsized mid 70's intermediate, which was as big as they ever got, had around 59-60", so the Camry's not far behind. I think my '76 LeMans has 59.6"
it definitely shows how this class of car is improving
I agree.
Look at the volume this segment does - despite all the hot new models this is still the bread-and-butter.
I'm sure they worked overtime to match the 35mpg rating from Hyundai/Kia.
In fact, I wonder, is MPG the new HP? By that I mean, it used to be HP sold cars, i.e. they hyped the HP numbers. Now it seems they hype the highway MPG. Look at Ody commercials - I can't find one that doesn't mention the 28mpg.
I bet Camry ads do the same thing - emphasis on MPG.
Guess I'll be the first to vote thumbs down on the new Camry. Didnt like the old one either.
You may be the first, but definitely not the only one. To me, it looks like a warmed-over Corolla with touches of the TSX and Forte thrown in for good measure.
*Yawn*
I'll wait to see the interior in-person before making a decision about it, but then again, ANYTHING is an improvement over the '11 interiors.
The big changes were inside, so you may like it better after sitting in one.
Actually, I never really had much to complain about with the outgoing Camry's interior. I didn't like a few details, such as a center console that seemed like it was too tall, and made the interior feel confined, and the grab handles in the armrests seemed awkwardly placed.
I also wasn't too crazy about the fact that the styling on the '07 robbed about two feet of trunk space, dropping it from 17 in the 2002-2006 to 15 in the '07-11 model. Overall it might have been less though, as the EPA rounds those numbers off. It could have dropped from 16.5 to 15.4, but the EPA would have still listed 17 and 15.
Overall, the '07-11 Camry was simply a car that did nothing for me, one way or another. I didn't really like it, but couldn't muster up the energy to hate it, either.
I prefer the Malibu style as well, although it has one feature that I also don't like on the Camry...that swollen-nose bulge at the top of the grille/front of the hood area. I think the Malibu pulled it off better, but I still would have preferred it to be toned down a bit.
As for the 2012 Camry, I'm sure there will be things about it that I don't like, if I stare at it long enough. But the same can be said for any car.
Overall, the '07-11 Camry was simply a car that did nothing for me, one way or another. I didn't really like it, but couldn't muster up the energy to hate it, either.
That's about where I am, on the previous and the 2012 version.
This may come as a HUGE shock to some members, but we are not normal people. We feel too much... we care too much... about cars. Normal folk aren't as nit-picky about styling as we are. As long as it isn't weird or doesn't turn heads the wrong way, they can't be bothered to get fired up about how "boring" a vehicle is. Most shoppers want the best value for their money in the class that they're shopping. If they're shopping for an "average" sedan, the styling needs to be un-offensive enough not to knock it off the list. If they're looking for more exciting/interesting, they'll likely not be looking at Camry competitors, IMO.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
That's kind of how it was for my mother. Had several middling-era (80s-90s) Fords, none with any real catastrophic issues, but eventually all had annoying little faults that never went away. She then bought a Camry, and loves it, as nothing has gone wrong. That's all she wants.
I presume you meant a diesel wagon with sleek lines, and a manual, with impressive 0-60 times, no "beak" or "smile" on the grille, lacking a "cheap-looking" interior, and priced for the average consumer?
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
She then bought a Camry, and loves it, as nothing has gone wrong. That's all she wants.
That pretty much describes my MIL. She drove lousy GM and Chrysler products for years. She decided to buy a new Camry XLE v6 in '05. She's put over 145k on until its first failure which was a front wheel bearing. She loves the car and I doubt it will be her last Toyota.
Well, we'll see how it competes against the style leaders at the moment. They are 2 years ahead and if they make the right improvements to their weak points, Camry will not lead by much in sales as in the past.
That's the other thing, we would not call it a station wagon. We'd call it a Touring or some european sounding name. I didn't mention RWD but that was so obvious I didn't have to.
The factor for me is styling. If I don't like what a car looks like, I don't care how well-built, engineered, how safe, how well it performs, how reliable, or how great a car's fuel economy is.
Audi calls hatchbacks SPORTbacks, and wagons Avants. I can't figure the difference, except maybe an extra foot in the cargo area protuding behind the rear wheels in the Avants.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
But then, how do you determine whether the car actually has a D-pillar, or just a very wide C-pillar with a window inserted?
My criteria used to be that a wagon would have a roof that extended just about all the way to the back of the car, and the rear was more or less vertical, while a hatchback would have the roof end just after the rear doors as it would on a regular sedan or coupe, and then the rear would slope off at an angle to the back of the car.
But, in more recent years, hatchbacks have been getting more vertical in the back, and IMO some of them, like the Mazda 3, begin to blur the distinction between hatchback and small wagon. Something like a VW Golf is pretty cut-and-dry, as it stops at the C-pillar, even though it has a vertical rear. The Chevy Aveo, IMO, seems like it just has a big C-pillar with a quarter window cut in, rather than a separate C- and D-pillar.
But still, the Mazda 3 seems a bit borderline to me.
Looks like GM is less American everday! Talk about irony!
The tastes of Chinese customers are beginning to influence cars designed and sold in the U.S. The interior of the popular Buick LaCrosse was executed in GM's Shanghai design studio.
Hey, Lemko...hope you like your Caddies with a little : "Body by China" on the rocker panel!
Ask GM's international boss Tim Lee whether he can envision GM ever moving its headquarters to Shanghai, and he barks "Never."
Ask about a seat for SAIC on the GM board and you get the same answer. But everything else seems to be on the table, including building cars in China for sale in the U.S.
Over the next 10 years, GM believes China will grow by another 12.7 million units -- in effect adding another market the size of the U.S., and that GM's share will rise along with it.
Even if corporate headquarters never leave Michigan, Detroit's GM seems destined to wind up as an appendage to a China-centric company.
Note to Uplander: Better sign in to that local mental clinic for therapy soon...lines forming now!
The Cadillac Escalade remains one of the most stolen cars in the U.S., according to the Highway Loss Data Institute.
But the top of the list is also studded with a bunch of heavy-duty pickups.
The group's latest study shows that the Escalade's popularity with thieves is high: Four versions of the Escalade appear at the top of HLDI's list of 2008-10 vehicles with the most theft claims.
Escalade owners are stacking up theft losses that are more than 10 times larger ($114) than the average car ($11 worth of theft loss).
You buy 'em, we take 'em! It's the "Standard of the Under-World"!!!
Boo U.S. Yea everybody else! On the next Dr. Phil.
Funny.
Don't they say actions speak louder than words? I've only owned two non domestic (branded anyway) cars over the past 24 years I've been driving (one german, one asian). Unfortunately, many of the domestics have given me plenty to complain about. When it comes to cheering for the D3 I feel like a Cubs fan.
Deep down I'm a strong Ford supporter, but I'm unwilling to accept crappy cars and they've (along with GM and chrysler) have built plenty.
Right now if I were going to buy a new sedan the top on my list would be a 300C, sporty coupe would be a Mustang, a truck would be an f150, compact would be a Focus or Cruze.
I'd love to have a BMW, but a 5 series gets to expensive for me and a 3 series is to small (while the kids are home anyways).
or just a very wide C-pillar with a window inserted?
Here's an oddball - the first Toyota Matrix. At a glance it's a hatch all the way, especially since Toyota made a Corolla Fielder station wagon, which had a much longer roof. Yet the Matrix had a tiny window behind the C-pillar, and the roof went well beyond the C-pillar.
Nowadays even some sedans look like hatches - Panamera, and to get back to topic, even the Cruze.
I had forgotten about the Matrix/Vibe. And yeah, I would have considered the first-gen to be a wagon, along the lines of a PT Cruiser (which actually got classified as an SUV) or a Focus wagon.
I never heard of a Corolla Fielder, but googled it. Looks like it's trying to be a cross between a wagon and a minivan, sort of like those old tall Stanza and Civic wagons, or the first Honda Odyssey. Didn't Mitsubishi offer one of those for awhile as well? I seem to recall it being badged as an Eagle Summit, but can't remember what the Mitsu version was called?
I think a lot of sedans these days are starting to look like they'd be better off as hatchbacks. The trunk lids are so stubby that it would almost be better if they incorporated it into a hatch that also included the rear window, so you could have a larger opening. I guess that would add some weight and expense though, as they'd have to beef up the body structure to account for that larger opening and lack of bracing behind the back seat.
I look at the Panamera as more of an old fashioned fastback than anything like a hatch. The Cruze is just a sedan with a short trunk - Lexus has embraced this look in the GS/IS too.
I think some of that Matrix-esque stuff is just trying to disguise what really is a station wagon, as there's a huge stigma still out there among the sheeple...same thing for crossovers and many SUVs, really just tall wagons for people with sensitive self-images.
Comments
http://www.insideline.com/toyota/camry/2012/2012-toyota-camry-first-drive.html
BTW that's Edmunds review, nice MPG improvements. 30mpg highway for the V6, 35 mpg for the 2.5l, with a power bump to boot. Hybrid gains an impressive +7mpg.
Sorry but GM's mild hybrids are doomed when compared to those numbers.
Still seems like Hyundai makes the benchmark numbers for the volume base models, with 35mpg plus 200hp, though.
:P
I know Toyota says the Camry SE has a "sports-oriented suspension setup"
That person certainly didn't have a clue (I don't think any mainstream manufacturer produces a vehicle that doesn't use parts from the corporate parts bin). It was well known the Avalon was based on a stretched Camry platform and it didn't take a genius to figure out they used the same v6 powertrain etc. Heck, they were built in the same plant (I don't know if they still are).
Rear spoilers on FWD vehicles crack me up...everyone does it, though.
Guess the incentives from GM will continue. They are King Incentive anyway.
There will be four trim packages from which to choose, and despite the significant improvements in the model, any 2012 Camry will be priced close to or less than a comparably-equipped 2011.
The 2011 Camry L, the base model produced in very low volume and sold almost exclusively to fleets, starts at $20,195. The new 2012 Camry L will start at $21,995 (plus $760 for destination), the core 2012 Camry LE package for comfort and value will be priced at $22,500. The sportier Camry SE, currently priced at $22,965, will start at $23,000. The premium trim package Camry XLE ($26,725 for MY 2011), will start at $24,725, a $2,000 reduction. Toyota notes that comparably equipped, prices for all trim levels have dropped.
Regards,
OW
Rear spoilers crack me up on most mainstream vehicles. That said, a fwd vehicle may still need a spoiler or other type of air deflector to provide down force (at very high speeds on a track etc). You certainly wouldn't want lift at high speeds regardless of which wheels are driven.
But yes, a Malibu, Camry, Accord, etc really don't need a stupid wing on the back. Rear wings on the back of pickup trucks really crack me up too.
I don't want to jump on the Toyota bandwagon, but reading that Edmund's review, it does sound pretty impressive, and it definitely shows how this class of car is improving.
Hopefully, it'll keep GM on their toes, and they'll work hard at keeping the Malibu competitive.
It's interesting to see how that Camry, as well as other cars in this class, are continuing to grow in some dimensions. 58" of front seat shoulder room is pretty generous for a midsized car. That's actually more than your typical midsized car of the late 70's, as they started downsizing. Back then, I think GM's cars like the '78 Malibu and similar cars were the most generous, with around 57.5" of shoulder room, and most competing cars of similar size were around 56-57".
Even your typical pre-downsized mid 70's intermediate, which was as big as they ever got, had around 59-60", so the Camry's not far behind. I think my '76 LeMans has 59.6"
I don't disagree, but my wife likes her cars to have a "trunk handle".
2009
2010
I agree.
Look at the volume this segment does - despite all the hot new models this is still the bread-and-butter.
I'm sure they worked overtime to match the 35mpg rating from Hyundai/Kia.
In fact, I wonder, is MPG the new HP? By that I mean, it used to be HP sold cars, i.e. they hyped the HP numbers. Now it seems they hype the highway MPG. Look at Ody commercials - I can't find one that doesn't mention the 28mpg.
I bet Camry ads do the same thing - emphasis on MPG.
What I'm asking is, will it be THE factor? As in the first thing consumers see.
You may be the first, but definitely not the only one. To me, it looks like a warmed-over Corolla with touches of the TSX and Forte thrown in for good measure.
*Yawn*
I'll wait to see the interior in-person before making a decision about it, but then again, ANYTHING is an improvement over the '11 interiors.
It probably will be, since it'll never be THE factor in my decision-making...
I think it looks fine for this class. The Malibu definitely takes more risks; I like some things about it better, others not as much.
I'm lazy.
Speaking of which, does Toyota set the bar for what GM must do to compete?
Actually, I never really had much to complain about with the outgoing Camry's interior. I didn't like a few details, such as a center console that seemed like it was too tall, and made the interior feel confined, and the grab handles in the armrests seemed awkwardly placed.
I also wasn't too crazy about the fact that the styling on the '07 robbed about two feet of trunk space, dropping it from 17 in the 2002-2006 to 15 in the '07-11 model. Overall it might have been less though, as the EPA rounds those numbers off. It could have dropped from 16.5 to 15.4, but the EPA would have still listed 17 and 15.
Overall, the '07-11 Camry was simply a car that did nothing for me, one way or another. I didn't really like it, but couldn't muster up the energy to hate it, either.
I prefer the Malibu style as well, although it has one feature that I also don't like on the Camry...that swollen-nose bulge at the top of the grille/front of the hood area. I think the Malibu pulled it off better, but I still would have preferred it to be toned down a bit.
As for the 2012 Camry, I'm sure there will be things about it that I don't like, if I stare at it long enough. But the same can be said for any car.
That's about where I am, on the previous and the 2012 version.
This may come as a HUGE shock to some members, but we are not normal people. We feel too much... we care too much... about cars. Normal folk aren't as nit-picky about styling as we are. As long as it isn't weird or doesn't turn heads the wrong way, they can't be bothered to get fired up about how "boring" a vehicle is. Most shoppers want the best value for their money in the class that they're shopping. If they're shopping for an "average" sedan, the styling needs to be un-offensive enough not to knock it off the list. If they're looking for more exciting/interesting, they'll likely not be looking at Camry competitors, IMO.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
0-60 MPH is achieved in infinity minutes when the car is in the shop! Even an Accent is faster then that!
After going through a lemon, sometimes you just want the opposite, and a Camry fits the bill.
The best seller is the benchmark. Always follow the money.
Soooo true.
If they polled us, we would ask for a diesel station wagon that only came with a manual transmission. They'd sell 3 of them per year.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
That pretty much describes my MIL. She drove lousy GM and Chrysler products for years. She decided to buy a new Camry XLE v6 in '05. She's put over 145k on until its first failure which was a front wheel bearing. She loves the car and I doubt it will be her last Toyota.
Regards,
OW
Regards,
OW
Unless it steals them from somewhere, like the Accord maybe.
Definitely dash-stroke worthy.
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/08/24/jay-leno-and-gm-design-boss-ed-welburn-peruse- -the-cadillac-ciel/
Just don't call it a station wagon. :shades:
Wagons have a D-pillar, hatches stop at C-.
But then, how do you determine whether the car actually has a D-pillar, or just a very wide C-pillar with a window inserted?
My criteria used to be that a wagon would have a roof that extended just about all the way to the back of the car, and the rear was more or less vertical, while a hatchback would have the roof end just after the rear doors as it would on a regular sedan or coupe, and then the rear would slope off at an angle to the back of the car.
But, in more recent years, hatchbacks have been getting more vertical in the back, and IMO some of them, like the Mazda 3, begin to blur the distinction between hatchback and small wagon. Something like a VW Golf is pretty cut-and-dry, as it stops at the C-pillar, even though it has a vertical rear. The Chevy Aveo, IMO, seems like it just has a big C-pillar with a quarter window cut in, rather than a separate C- and D-pillar.
But still, the Mazda 3 seems a bit borderline to me.
"General Motors Co. says it is cutting pickup truck production next month in a sign that truck sales aren't as robust as the company had hoped."
The tastes of Chinese customers are beginning to influence cars designed and sold in the U.S. The interior of the popular Buick LaCrosse was executed in GM's Shanghai design studio.
Hey, Lemko...hope you like your Caddies with a little : "Body by China" on the rocker panel!
Ask GM's international boss Tim Lee whether he can envision GM ever moving its headquarters to Shanghai, and he barks "Never."
Ask about a seat for SAIC on the GM board and you get the same answer. But everything else seems to be on the table, including building cars in China for sale in the U.S.
Over the next 10 years, GM believes China will grow by another 12.7 million units -- in effect adding another market the size of the U.S., and that GM's share will rise along with it.
Even if corporate headquarters never leave Michigan, Detroit's GM seems destined to wind up as an appendage to a China-centric company.
Note to Uplander: Better sign in to that local mental clinic for therapy soon...lines forming now!
Regards,
OW
But the top of the list is also studded with a bunch of heavy-duty pickups.
The group's latest study shows that the Escalade's popularity with thieves is high: Four versions of the Escalade appear at the top of HLDI's list of 2008-10 vehicles with the most theft claims.
Escalade owners are stacking up theft losses that are more than 10 times larger ($114) than the average car ($11 worth of theft loss).
You buy 'em, we take 'em! It's the "Standard of the Under-World"!!!
Now I get it! Duh!
Regards,
OW
Funny.
Don't they say actions speak louder than words? I've only owned two non domestic (branded anyway) cars over the past 24 years I've been driving (one german, one asian). Unfortunately, many of the domestics have given me plenty to complain about. When it comes to cheering for the D3 I feel like a Cubs fan.
Deep down I'm a strong Ford supporter, but I'm unwilling to accept crappy cars and they've (along with GM and chrysler) have built plenty.
Right now if I were going to buy a new sedan the top on my list would be a 300C, sporty coupe would be a Mustang, a truck would be an f150, compact would be a Focus or Cruze.
I'd love to have a BMW, but a 5 series gets to expensive for me and a 3 series is to small (while the kids are home anyways).
Here's an oddball - the first Toyota Matrix. At a glance it's a hatch all the way, especially since Toyota made a Corolla Fielder station wagon, which had a much longer roof. Yet the Matrix had a tiny window behind the C-pillar, and the roof went well beyond the C-pillar.
Nowadays even some sedans look like hatches - Panamera, and to get back to topic, even the Cruze.
I never heard of a Corolla Fielder, but googled it. Looks like it's trying to be a cross between a wagon and a minivan, sort of like those old tall Stanza and Civic wagons, or the first Honda Odyssey. Didn't Mitsubishi offer one of those for awhile as well? I seem to recall it being badged as an Eagle Summit, but can't remember what the Mitsu version was called?
I think a lot of sedans these days are starting to look like they'd be better off as hatchbacks. The trunk lids are so stubby that it would almost be better if they incorporated it into a hatch that also included the rear window, so you could have a larger opening. I guess that would add some weight and expense though, as they'd have to beef up the body structure to account for that larger opening and lack of bracing behind the back seat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsubishi_Chariot
Later they called it the Expo and Expo LRV.
GM has the Opel Meriva and Zafira in Europe, and oddly enough they've been badged as Chevys as well (Brazil's GM brand).
I think some of that Matrix-esque stuff is just trying to disguise what really is a station wagon, as there's a huge stigma still out there among the sheeple...same thing for crossovers and many SUVs, really just tall wagons for people with sensitive self-images.