om a GM guy--I don't believe the Cruze is that bad nor the Volt that great.
Being that the Cruze is supposed to sell around 20K and the Volt around 40K, I'd like to figure the Cruze is bad compared to the greatness of the Volt.
If 20 extra thousand dollars can't buy greatness, the manufacturing of the Volt should cease immediately.
You should write a CEASE and DESIST letter to GM today, not tomorrow, ATTN: CEO!
Please stop wasting my tax dollars on the Volt! A vehicle for idiots, as some have stated.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
The consumer reviews may be edited for profanity. I get the impression legal doesn't like to do it much since we wouldn't want to be accused of shading the meaning of a review (that's a reason why we delete posts here, instead of editing them).
But we still get accused of all sorts of stuff by a few people, in spite of no evidence to the contrary. :P :P :P
I like to chat up people who have a car I'm curious about. Ask them how they like their new Cruze when they're next to you at the gas pump or the convenience store. I recall the XG350 Hyundai owners I asked were very pleased with their cars after a few years even. It changed my opinion of Hyundai.
Yes, I also do that very thing. You can also judge the quality of the responses by looking at how well the owner has treated his vehicle.
If he's unhappy about it, and the car looks like it just came from a demo-derby, it certainly weighs the opinion I am getting from the owner.
As for CR, I DO read their opinions, but I lost a lot of respect for them when I listended to CR and bought a Cable-Card plasma TV, based on CR's recommendation of using a Cable-Card to avoid using a desk-top receiver from the cable company.
Turns out there were major issues with the implementation of the technology, and it didn't work well at all (most manufacturers have ceased providing the option now).
When I contacted CR to discuss the issue, the responses I got back denied any knowledge of Cable-Card issues...NONE AT ALL!
All they had to do wes Google "cablecard" and they would have been much more informed.
That's when I started discounting CR information in a big way.
If I was a younger person, say, born 20 years later, I could've seen myself going for a HHR as I like the styling of older cars. The HHR reminds me of a mini 1947-53 Chevrolet Suburban. Also, the HHR looks more like an older Chevy than the PT Cruiser looks like an older Mopar. The PT Cruiser looks more like a 1937 Ford than any 1930s Mopar.
I think CR is what it is - reviews are kind of engineer perspective focused and reliability comes from subscriber input. Its a good source generally, but I don't think it should be a consumer's only source. The only real way to get a strong handle on things like vehicle reliability is through dealer service records and I don't think anyone with access to those will be releasing that kind of info to the public, maybe disguised, but no way direct.
I guess I rely on my own experience with the product, more than what subscribers-only report, even if they indicate more problems with interior hardware on a six than V8 (LOL). I look suspiciously when CR racks two completely different iterations of Malibu together for reliability ratings even though the only similarity the two have is the name "Malibu", for instance.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I like to chat up people who have a car I'm curious about. Ask them how they like their new Cruze when they're next to you at the gas pump or the convenience store. I recall the XG350 Hyundai owners I asked were very pleased with their cars after a few years even. It changed my opinion of Hyundai.
I do the same. Any make, any model I see that I am curious about. Just spoke to an owner the other day about his Toyota Venza and he said he loved it and even with the big 20" wheels, it goes through the snow like a champ... I probably will never own a Toyota product but I asked anyways, even stuff I'm not interested in... because I am a car fanatic, not a brand fanatic.
Another reference I like to use, (whether it be scientific or just luck) is a nationwide and a local search of a vehicle on Cars.com. There is a nationwide sampling of all the high mileage ones that are for sale and alot of them nowadays have a free Carfax report offered. Carfax will show the # of owners and the services done.
I was interested in a Range Sport for gits and shiggles one day until I did a Carfax check on a few of them and holy moly were they repaired often. Not simple sensors and stuff either, we're talking entire engines! :lemon:
It is relevant to this forum, because absent Bush's wrongdoings near the end of his 2nd term, this forum would be called "GM History, Antiques, and Bankruptcy fallout."
Andres3 - I don't know what you think of the Occupy-movement, and I don't know much about it, but I do believe their underlining premise is, what I've stated here before (not taking credit for the thought) - but there is no significant difference between the Dems. and Repubs. They are bought and paid for by the wealthy and powerful; just that the constitutients in each group may be slightly different. The smart-people donate to both parties, to hedge their bet. The politicians are wined and dined by the same 40K lobbyists around DC. GM would have been bailed-out by almost any politician in DC at the time.
Why do you think Cerberus which owned Chrysler had selected Dan Quayle to be their exec? Because he's brilliant? and knew a lot about autos?
I applaud "Big Oil" and I assume if we folks use less "Big Oil", then your gas tank will see that European pricing at your neighbor gas station..That is right on the horizon...Our govt wants that to happen so the Greener Cars will sell..
I assume your younger generation is influenced by the ecology side of the equation that is prevalent in our lives today..The drumbeat of global warming, pollution, animal rights, or whatever fits the agenda is drummed into your daily lives...Hop on the bandwagon if you want and make a difference..
Don't the "Ethanol" bandits receive a healthy government " subsidy" and they still go belly up..
In closing, 51 out of 53 cars owned were not run on "corny gas" and I remember my time in Germany where I paid $0.18/gal for gas to propel my Porsches..
I got a notice lately from one of my charge sources that I can get another $2000 off of any negotiated pricing on all Chevrolet cars , including the Cruze..Based on ones accumulated earnings the upscale GM models are subject to whatever you have accumulated in your account..It's another giveaway at Govt Motors.. Lots of value in owning a GM product?????
Steve you are a "good host" and I wonder where the USA would be today without "Big Oil." Life would be different, you think????
the inequality argument is for losers. I knew that the top 1% will fare better before I was in high school. Even in the 70's they said "it takes money to make money". When I was 10 yrs old, my grandma made more in interest on her savings than my dad made at his job. The people in the top few percent that I know are where I want to be someday. I don't need an Occupier to inform me of anything. Besides, didn't Debbie W-S already tell us that Obama has turned the economy around 180 degrees? then why the gloomy stats being brought out?
No gloomy stats. They are under reporting the number of people out of work. They are over reporting the number of jobs by including part time jobs. Things are as rosy as they were under Carter or Clinton.
Those who ignore, discount, or mock the exploding (greater now than at any time in the past 80+ years) socio-economic gap are not just losers, but are brainwashed and deceptive. They have either stole and cheated their way up and are afraid of the blade slashing their neck, or have been fooled to believe they can become a tycoon.
Kernick's explanation was right on the nose - it matters nothing who earns your vote, the same lobbyist-enabled special interest groups win no matter what. GM would have been aided no matter who was in office. We'd be in a trade surrender with our multinational competitors no matter who was elected over the past 40 years. It just doesn't matter in a defective and asinine two party system where real "class warfare" was actually launched by the 1%.
You're not going to be in the top few, and the stats we read in the corporate owned media grossly under-report the problems.
Class warfare is most recently a name given to Obama's tactics by the conservatives. Tactics that divide.
I think it takes $360k a year to be in the top 1%. Many made it there starting with $2 an hour jobs and working hard in college that they paid for by themselves or by taking risk and being entrepreneurs. They took business, construction, management, and finance in college. None of this did or didn't happen because of politicians or lobbyists.
The change in income gaps over the decade from 1996 to 2006 got worse. The middle 20% of America only saw a 10% rise in after tax income over that decade. The bottom 20% saw a 6% drop. But even the top 20% only saw a 38% increase or only about 3.5% per year compounded. As a middle 20 percenter, why be angry about a top 20 percenter gaining 2.5% per year on me? It would take just 1.3 hrs a week of overtime to undo that gain by the top 20 percenter in one of those years.
Let's see, I'm 59* and have lived in 9 towns and cities now. Without cheap oil for so many years, maybe one of those towns would have had okay public transportation. I'm in a walkable little town now and it's still just a bit too far to walk or bike to the grocery. I was close enough to a Fred Meyer's in Anchorage to walk there, and often did. Chattanooga, Memphis, Boise, forget it.
Maybe we should rehash the old conspiracy theory that GM killed off the trolley cars in favor of gas burning buses :shades:
Did you drive your Porsche to the market during your German years for your daily loaf of bread?
Volts are nice and all, but they aren't going to ease sprawl or congestion any.
(*thanks for including me in the younger generation. )
GM would have been bailed-out by almost any politician in DC at the time.
To the republicans credit, some of them actually have decent morals, and a backbone, and actually followed the public's will and voted down the bailouts, at least the first time around.
Then the big wall street and Detroit execs promised a few politicians golden parachutes in their older age and got the votes required for another re-vote, and got the bailouts. I don't understand any reason for the change of heart (and change of votes) other than corruption. Corruption, corruption, immoral, and sinister is the only explanation in my book.
Ron Paul didn't vote for the bailouts.
Ron Paul for President (However, if Obama gets the HARP 2.0 program to work, that'll buy him some votes, including mine).
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
As for CR, I DO read their opinions, but I lost a lot of respect for them when I listended to CR and bought a Cable-Card plasma TV,
The cable card could not have possibly added more than $99.99 to the cost of your TV (and that's retail!).
The TV I'm sure is still fully functional, just use a table top cable box. I think the fault of the failure was more with cable companies, and copyright protection extremists, than it was with CR.
I don't think you should be very mad at CR for that. That would be like me being mad at them for having a couple half black dots on the Neon instead of a solid row of black.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
I get angry because the top 1% gain on the rest of us by walking all over our backs, ripping us off on home charging us way too much for overpriced home, driving the price up with fake money, and then when it comes time to pay the piper, they use OUR tax money to pay their LOSSES.
So they use their money and our money to artificially drive up prices. When it comes crashing down they use none of their money, and all of OUR money to save their behinds.
This is how they gain on the middle class. It is not legit, it is not fair, it is not right, and it is immoral.
I say to the GUILLOTINEs for all the 1%!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
My point was that CR was making suggestions and stating opinions about something of which it had incomplete knowledge.
If I was asking the clerk at Best Buy about it, it would have been a different story... Much the same as asking someone an opinion.
But, that isn't what CR claims to be. CR puts forth the impression that it makes informed decisions. In this particular case, CR was anything BUT informed.
I would say a much better example is buying a car based upon CR's recommendation of a low maintenance rating and then finding out CR ignored all the recalls and TSB's issued for the car...
All I'm saying is that, after that personal experience, I learned to take CR's recommendations with a lot less weight. I still read them, but I do far more research on any expensive product purchase now than take what CR says at face value.
Not to mention that 99.9% of American communities are pedestrian "unfriendly", and I suspect it's a big reason so many more Americans are obese that Europeans.
When I go to visit friends in Germany, I'm always impressed how so many businesses are within walking distances from their house.
We parked the van in Tucson one time and a couple of months later were flying back from Cancun. Went to some 20 odd Mexican states and got everywhere with public transport. Can't do that in the US or Canada.
Still, you'll see a lot of Silverados down there, but people were using them to make a living, not to commute in.
My brother-in-law manages to get around Seattle and most of King County without a car, thanks to GM. They supply the Allison transmissions in many of the buses there. Beyond the urban areas, forget it. (You forgot the postal and regular buses btw).
It's really sad what happend to our railroads in the decades following WWII. At one time, the Pennsylvania Railroad was the biggest and wealthiest corporation in the world! It seems the decline in railroads went hand-in-hand with the decline of Big Steel and King Coal.
My little hometown of Greenville, PA was headquarters of the Bessemer and Lake Erie railroad, and the Erie Lackawanna's Chicago-to-NYC mainline passed right through, offering daily passenger service to NYC or Chicago or anyplace in-between, until 1970. Greenville Steel Car Co. built boxcars for eighty years...until NAFTA. I'm told when you buy model rail hopper cars today, you choose "Greenville" or "Bethlehem" style. I agree that the decline of railroads seemed to go hand-in-hand with the decline of Big Steel.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
That's one cool thing about Europe - such different commercial development. If you live in any kind of town at all, chances are there will be a store within walking distance. Walking to do short errands isn't a bad thing. I have to live in a pretty densely populated area to do it here.
"Class warfare" in a pity the rich context is a distraction to make the masses look away from their own decline, just as the automaker bailouts are used by some to distract from more pressing financial issues. No mattter that all of our competitors help their industries just as much or more.
Many or likely a majority of the 1%ers work in well connected industries and/or were gifted in one way or another from birth. It's much more of a wealth construct than simply declared income. I'd wager there's been little wealth actually created in the past few decades, rather it's just a slow steady transfer from what was the working or middle class both downwards and upwards - but most of it going up. The rich have it better today than they have in generations. It's no coincidence, nor an accident. And construction? That entire boom existed because of politicians and lobbyists. Most businesses benefit from those forces.
Middle, top, and bottom 20%? Who was talking about 20th percentiles, and what about the missing 40% If someone thinks working 80 minutes a week of OT is going to save their lot, I don't know what to say. The key is in the differentials.
Class warfare is real. Those beloved 1%ers have launched war against the rest.
I didn't realize it is going to be built in Korea.
So GM trumpets the shutdown of Aveo production and the moving of production for the Spark to the US, then builds a new small SUV (of higher value than the Aveo) and does it in Korea?! That seems.....strange.
"GM has a loooooong history of almost-but-not-quite-good-enough products to overcome."
I've been saying this!
Interesting that years ago in these forums, at a time when GM said it couldn't make any money making smaller cars, I also complained that they should build a premium smaller car. BMW has been successful at it for decades. Well .... finally!!!! Hope the ATS lives up to its potential. GM really could become excellent, they just have to not let a few things screw it up. The Cruze could still get there with powertrain improvements and some better reliability. And the ATS also has the potential. Let's hope they succeed.
Now I'm not being paid like the previous GM execs, so I should charge for this advice that's better than their decisions a few years ago:
1 - Refine your cars, better interiors, better reliability - $2Million 2 - Build a premium smaller car that's actually world-class and you can charge enough to cover the costs and make an actual profit on it - $5million
Total - $7Million.
That advice makes me a lot cheaper than kLutz. Send the money to me, GM, for my sage advice! :P
The sampling is a convenience sample. It's not really demonstrative of all cars in the group because of the way it's taken. .
CR is certainly not perfect, and their sampling is not what would be done in a statistically significant survey. HOWEVER, unless there's a good reason that the relative proportions of problems between makes for CR subscribers would vary substantially from those who are not CR subscribers, it's a pretty good approximation of a statistical sample. I haven't seen any plausible reason given that if you are a CR subscriber with a GM, you'd have WORSE reliablity relative to say, Toyota than a non-CR subscribing GM owner would than a non-subscribing Toyota owner.
As far as asking owners what they think of their cars, that's a wildly LESS statistically significant approach than CR's surveys. So it's pretty much meaningless, as there are happy and unhappy owners for any make. Except for GM since they are ALWAYS horrible! (See, I can use wild exaggeration, too. :P )
HOWEVER, unless there's a good reason that the relative proportions of problems between makes for CR subscribers would vary substantially from those who are not CR subscribers
I had posted my explanations to this several times here.
If a subscription fee based Republican magazine conducts surveys among their readers which party is better, of course the results favor Republican because the Democrats would not pay their subscriptions to this magazine thus would not be in the survey.
Similarly, because the heavily biased favor the CR has, its readers are filtered to the same bias. If someones love their American cars and find the poor ratings on their cars by CR, they won't pay to renew their subscriptions next year. If someones buy Japanese cars based on CR's high rating on them and find out the cars are not as good as CR says, they won't pay to renew their subscriptions next year either. So the only ones left paying for it are the ones with the same belief or bias and the CR's surveys on them would only reinforce such bias.
I'm agreeing with your posts regarding what the problems are and how they are being caused. We may still differ on what the solutions are, as I usually promote a "hands-off" government. I believe in rules-and-regulations by the government, but these programs to promote housing or prop-up ethanol or the D3 are over the line. Let companies and corporations fail and succeed, and don't allow foreign subsidized products into the country. And don't allow domestic companies to produce goods in countries that don't follow our safety and environmental requirements.
My big concern in the world today, is that our government being driven by the military-industrial complex, seeing the war in Iraq come to an end, and the threats to some of their $ being discussed in deficit-reduction, are building a case to launch a war with Iran. Proof: normally information on Iran's nuclear program is kept secret; a few days Somehow! the information is given to the networks.
Is GM still involved in making military equipment, now that they sold-off Hummer? Whenever I saw "contractors" in Iraq, it seems they were driving new GM SUV's. The government seemed to be a good customer of Suburbans and Tahoes.
You are 100% spot on but that's the reason the recent OJ news regarding pesticides came up all of a sudden. How much more imported food is checked coming in? 1-5% perhaps? :sick:
When magazine writers comment for 25 years how the smaller, thinner Japanese cars are superior, people listen. People really are followers...most are, anyway.
I always expect an epiphany when I rent a foreign car. I'm virtually always left thinking, 'this is the greatest?'
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
>Class warfare is real. Those beloved 1%ers have launched war against the rest.
Interesting post--perfect.
One detail I'd add is that our problem is the government folks. The elected and appointed all consider themselves as royalty. Picture the attitudes about how to govern the first 2 years of this regime--ram it through no matter what it does to the economy and the "little" people: cap and trade, socialized healthcare, higher gas prices to force money spending on those green projects by our donors..., etc.
The royalty in DC has the perfect life all at taxpayers' expense. They have the ability to justify what they do by pitting the "little" people against each other on details--look at how the Republican candidates have been examined with microscopes for anything that can be used to belittle them or their beliefs. Keep the outsiders who will cause dramatic change in DC out.
And the other perfect example is how the minimal help from our government in the auto industry has been a political tool. No one complained when government money was given to buyers of hybrid foreign vehicles who have received support from their government(s) in the past. But let our GM/C/F have money given, and kaboom, the perfect storm.
And at the same time people who espouse buying foreign brand cars built there or here complain that GM's new Buick is built in Korea. The perfect example of hypocrisy.
>I always expect an epiphany when I rent a foreign car. I'm virtually always left thinking, 'this is the greatest?'
The perfect observation. The foreign cars put on their wheels one lugnut at a time just like everyone else. The perfection they represent in some folks' minds is strictly that: in their minds.
I recall when our dear friend brought by her new Corolla and suggested I drive it, I was sorely disappointed at how tinny it was. Everything was super thin and minimal. And this was an "S" model with fancy plastic hung on the outside. I recall months later, the front bumper was hanging off on one side. The clips had been unsnapped, perhpas by someone bumping it from the front while parallel parked outside the theater in downtown Dayton a couple nights earlier. I noticed the bumper a year or more latter was unsnapped again.
The steering wheel position seemed off to the left rather than directly towar the driver. But she was perfectly happy with it. Her previous car was a '95 Civic, another of the wunderbar vehicles. I recall having to go over and work to get it started as it aged the last couple of years before she purchased the 2007 Corolla. It seemed not to start after damp days and cooler weather than the average. She complained how much they wanted to fix it everytime she took it in. She didn't have a lot of the stuff done.
Uplander: That reminds me of a Hyundai a rental agency gave me in Vegas a few years back. I reluctantly took it, being a G.M. worker since 1970, and decided to see just how "good" these new cars were.
It was Summer and the temp was around 110ºF. During the drive to my hotel, the A/C could not even come close to cooling the interior down. On top of that, when I needed to make a quick last-second left turn as a signal would change, there was so little power, I needed to shut the A/C off to relieve the engine of the drag and have enough oomph to make my move. The car had just 200 (HUNDRED) miles on the odo.
I called the rental agency from my hotel and asked if I could exchange the Hyundai for an American car and they said yes. I was given a 20,000 mile Cavalier (built in the plant I worked at) that had an Arctic wind for an A/C and had enough power without shutting the A/C off, and could run rings around the Hyundai!
From then on, I refuse to accept an Asian-branded rental car. The last time, they wanted to give me a Nissan Sentra, which they said was a mid-sized car. Well, excuuuuse me, but that is a compact car. I've built compact cars for many years and the Sentra is the same size and price as a Cavalier/Cobalt/Cruze. I paid extra for a Ford Fusion.
I recall when our dear friend brought by her new Corolla and suggested I drive it, I was sorely disappointed at how tinny it was. Everything was super thin and minimal.
I remember when my uncle bought his '03 Corolla, it seemed like a decent little car. Maybe not an epiphany, or as Lemko used to say about the Impala "better than sex", but it definitely seemed like a good car. However, he also bought it on Memorial Day weekend, 2002, so consider the competition at the time. Chevy was still peddling the Cavalier, Mopar had the Neon, and Ford's Focus still had its teething problems.
At the time, the interior materials actually seemed pretty decent. The dash material was actually hard plastic, but had a nice texture to it. It looked as if it was soft to the touch, but once you rapped your knuckles on it, you knew it was just hard plastic. But, I have to give them some credit for trying. In contrast, my Dad's '03 Regal has some interior materials that I thought were just cheap, hard plastic, until I actually touched them.
Now, my uncle just has the cheap CE or C model, or whatever it's called. First time I drove it, I was impressed at a few of the features it had. For instance, it had an outside temperature display, and an inside release for the fuel filler door, two features that my much more expensive Intrepid didn't have. IIRC, it had one or two additional minor conveniences that my Intrepid lacked, but right offhand I can't remember what they were.
However, the first time I drove the car more than maybe 10-15 minutes, I realized what a horrible seating position it has. You really have to be built like an ape to be comfortable in it. The seat doesn't go back very far, but the the steering wheel is too far away, so you really need to have short legs and long arms to be comfortable. Also, while the steering wheel did adjust, it was the cheap, clunky type with the lever underneath that raises and lowers the whole column, and it didn't raise up far enough for me, as the wheel was still down between my knees.
Oddly though, I found the passenger seat to be pretty comfortable. And, for a small car, it's not a bad ride, if you're a passenger. However, as a driver, I find it too jittery. The slightest imperfections, crosswinds, etc seem to bounce it around in the lane.
I know the Corolla is supposedly all-new for 2008, but I've sat in a few of the newer ones, and I really don't feel much of a difference, compared to my uncle's car. It just feels kinda old and outdated today. But then, I don't think the Corolla has ever been considered a trendsetter...just a whitebread economy car that's supposed to be dependable and not throw you any surprises...good or bad. The Civic's always seemed a bit hipper and trendier, while the small Mazdas and Nissans (at least until the treacherous French got involved) usually seemed a touch sportier.
If I were going for a small car today, I don't think the Corolla would be very high on my list.
The last time, they wanted to give me a Nissan Sentra, which they said was a mid-sized car. Well, excuuuuse me, but that is a compact car. I've built compact cars for many years and the Sentra is the same size and price as a Cavalier/Cobalt/Cruze. I paid extra for a Ford Fusion.
So, in rental-car speak, you got a full-size! :P Oh, as for the Nissan Sentra, if it was the current generation they were trying to give you, believe it or not, it actually IS classified as a mid-sized car! But then, so is a Cruze.
>I know the Corolla is supposedly all-new for 2008,
Was it new, or just a refresh on the exterior to keep up with the better looking rear (front is terrible) of the Civic. The newer Camry is just a refresh, too, isn't it.
There was something wrong in the position of the driver seat relative to the steering wheel which had an angle to its axis of rotation and to the pedals.
When I test drove the Cobalt that we bought, it was so much better than the small Corolla. I had expected some odd things to its driving position. Instead it was like driving an Impala, just with a console in the middle. The perfect car.
>Summer and the temp was around 110ºF. During the drive to my hotel, the A/C could not even come close to cooling the interior down.
My Cobalt's air is ice cold and will freeze you out on the hottest, most humid summer day. When friends got in to drive to nearby restaurant they commented how good the AC was compared to their Focus.
I got to drive and ride in a Fusion during Christmas vacation. At 80 mph on suburban Detroit freeways through Novi it was impressive. When I drove it, I realized I had to test drive this if I chose to buy a new or used vehicle in the future. It had 14,000 mi and was a 2011 in bright red. A base model since no emblems were on the trunk. The 4-cyl engine and trans gearing weren't meshed as well as my Cobalt for spirited driving, but my typical driving is much less than spirited. It seemed that it would be a comfortable car for the 3.25 hour drive to visit our friends, e.g.
The 4-cyl engine and trans gearing weren't meshed as well as my Cobalt for spirited driving
Seriously, a 4speed vs a 6? I've yet to sample a GM automatic that was remotely geared or tuned for performance. Every one seems to be geared to high and take forever to down shift in the name of FE. Even the 6 speed gm vehicles I've driven are the same. Tall gearing and a reluctance to downshift and or slow to do so. Drives me nuts and I must not be, because many reviews I read make similar claims.
I haven't driven a Cobalt, but we did have an '05 Cavelier LS at work a few years back. That car was barely a step above walking. Just a lousy, uninspiring vehicle and I don't need CU or any Mag to tell me that.
I drove it a few times for company business. I couldn't stand it. The car was always the last picked, I'd often use my own vehicle at my own expense versus being miserable.
OTOH, I've never driven, ridden in, or really even looked at a Corolla. But my neighbor's wife bought a new on a year or so ago to replace her G6. He drives a Lucerne. Seems when they go out it's 50/50 on which car they ride together in. So I guess it can't be to bad.
I have driven various civics and accords over the years and have generally liked them. It's not that they are the most luxurious, the quietest, or even the most comfortable cars available. I like how they feel from behind the wheel. The powertrains are almost always responsive, the manual transmissions are a joy to operate, and the autos while they might not be the smoothest shifting, they always seem to find and stay in the right gear while offering quick downshifts. Handling wise, they are fun to drive.
I drove a buddies '08 CRV around his home in the Ozarks of southern Missouri. Sure it didn't have enough power, but I was amazed by how tight the handling was. It was actually fun to drive through the tight switchback roads. It felt more like a sporty sedan, than a upright CUV. Plus with 90k on it, it still had a tightness I don't experience with domestic vehicles.
I've had dozens of domestics. Everyone has loosened up once they've passed 70-80k miles on it. Some worse than others.
Last night I rode in a friends '08 Toyota Tundra Limited that has 70k on it. First thing I noticed, well besides how damn quick that truck is, and how much I really don't like the interior design or materials, is how much tighter it felt than my Expedition. Just no squeaks or rattles and it had a feeling of being built from one piece (regardless of what bed bounce youtube videos show). And of course, he hasn't had any trouble with it. Wish I could say the same of my domestic SUVs. My friend traded in a Silverado on the Tundra. Like me, he was tired of the problems he had with the Ford's and Chevy's he owned previously. He claims the Tundra is the first 1/2 ton he's owned which hasn't needed any repairs by 70k miles.
With my Suburban and Expedition (and the domestic company cars my wife has had), as they aged, all of the various components began feeling like they're coming apart a micron at a time.
But some people don't notice those things. My FIL loves his '95 Tahoe with 180k on it. When I drive it, I swear it's ready for the bone yard. Squeaks, rattles, vibrations, and weird noises etc. I couldn't live with it.
Many made it there starting with $2 an hour jobs and working hard in college that they paid for by themselves or by taking risk and being entrepreneurs. They took business, construction, management, and finance in college. None of this did or didn't happen because of politicians or lobbyists.
I agree with you that Occupiers should not use the "way-the-world-is" to justify that they should be entitled to income, in place of hard work and individual effort.
As with most causes, there are some things that are correct and some that aren't. All I wanted to point out is that the Occupiers are correct on that 1 point - the wealthy and powerful do control the governement and use the government for their own benefit. You may realize that since you've been a teenager and some others may understand that, but there are an awful lot of people who believe that if their party - Rep. or Dem. get into office, that there will be big changes and the U.S. will be Utopia.
The fact is that the UAW and other unions are still powerful, and GM and the other auto makers and suppliers were going to get $ directed to them, regardless of the rules of the game, or what the people who wrote the Constitution intended. If we're playing Monopoly or a basketball game, I do not expect the rules to change mid-stream to benefit 1 player or the other. The Bank does not give a player $2,000, or the basketball team to have a 6th guy on the court, because they are playing badly; and well we help each other (wink, wink).
So I'm advocating a fair-game. If we don't think some foreign country plays fair, then I say don't let them play - it's our game. We are still the 600 LB gorilla in the room, so we have the capability to make the game fair - if we want to.
Similarly I advocate a government that does not favor the wealthy and powerful over the rest of us. Why Dem or Rep Congress can't even agree to make Insider Trading of stocks illegal, for it's own members! The very people who have access to the MOST insider information! What chance does the typical 401K investor have to make the type of profits?
If you like the GM bailout, the bank bailouts, the increasing debt, lower employment, more welfare, more undeclared wars, ... keep voting for the typical Dem or Rep. Keep supporting the system, giving them money to acquire more $ and power, and dictate more of your lives. Keep shrugging your shoulders, and watching your TV when the government decides to change the rules of the game.
I have to say that your comparison of the help given to foreign makes in the form of tax credits on hybrid vehicles is totally different than the bailouts given to the big 3.
The tax credis on foreign hybrids are 100% tied to sales of those vehicles. No sales, no cost to the taxpayer or the treasury.
On the other hand, the bailouts were all cash up-front. In the end, it may have been a profitable investment, but its way too early to make that determination, IMO.
It does make me wonder, though, if instead of bailouts a similar tax credit was given to purchasers of big 3 vehicles.... What would public opinion be then?
> me wonder, though, if instead of bailouts a similar tax credit was given to purchasers of big 3 vehicles.... What would public opinion be then?
Very good points.
I didn't go back to my original post, but I probably included the help given to foreign makers by their governments, in various forms. But the US did help the hybrid Prius with our own tax money.
Comments
So, is sampling error of such magnitude that the full black circles shown with many GM cars through the years should be full red circles?
Being that the Cruze is supposed to sell around 20K and the Volt around 40K, I'd like to figure the Cruze is bad compared to the greatness of the Volt.
If 20 extra thousand dollars can't buy greatness, the manufacturing of the Volt should cease immediately.
You should write a CEASE and DESIST letter to GM today, not tomorrow, ATTN: CEO!
Please stop wasting my tax dollars on the Volt! A vehicle for idiots, as some have stated.
But we still get accused of all sorts of stuff by a few people, in spite of no evidence to the contrary. :P :P :P
Yes, I also do that very thing. You can also judge the quality of the responses by looking at how well the owner has treated his vehicle.
If he's unhappy about it, and the car looks like it just came from a demo-derby, it certainly weighs the opinion I am getting from the owner.
Nothing beats real-world, hands-on experience/opinions.
As for CR, I DO read their opinions, but I lost a lot of respect for them when I listended to CR and bought a Cable-Card plasma TV, based on CR's recommendation of using a Cable-Card to avoid using a desk-top receiver from the cable company.
Turns out there were major issues with the implementation of the technology, and it didn't work well at all (most manufacturers have ceased providing the option now).
When I contacted CR to discuss the issue, the responses I got back denied any knowledge of Cable-Card issues...NONE AT ALL!
All they had to do wes Google "cablecard" and they would have been much more informed.
That's when I started discounting CR information in a big way.
I do the same. Any make, any model I see that I am curious about. Just spoke to an owner the other day about his Toyota Venza and he said he loved it and even with the big 20" wheels, it goes through the snow like a champ... I probably will never own a Toyota product but I asked anyways, even stuff I'm not interested in... because I am a car fanatic, not a brand fanatic.
Another reference I like to use, (whether it be scientific or just luck) is a nationwide and a local search of a vehicle on Cars.com. There is a nationwide sampling of all the high mileage ones that are for sale and alot of them nowadays have a free Carfax report offered. Carfax will show the # of owners and the services done.
I was interested in a Range Sport for gits and shiggles one day until I did a Carfax check on a few of them and holy moly were they repaired often. Not simple sensors and stuff either, we're talking entire engines! :lemon:
Anyways, just my .02
Glad the Yukon is no more.
Regards,
OW
Andres3 - I don't know what you think of the Occupy-movement, and I don't know much about it, but I do believe their underlining premise is, what I've stated here before (not taking credit for the thought) - but there is no significant difference between the Dems. and Repubs. They are bought and paid for by the wealthy and powerful; just that the constitutients in each group may be slightly different. The smart-people donate to both parties, to hedge their bet. The politicians are wined and dined by the same 40K lobbyists around DC.
GM would have been bailed-out by almost any politician in DC at the time.
Why do you think Cerberus which owned Chrysler had selected Dan Quayle to be their exec? Because he's brilliant? and knew a lot about autos?
I assume your younger generation is influenced by the ecology side of the equation that is prevalent in our lives today..The drumbeat of global warming, pollution, animal rights, or whatever fits the agenda is drummed into your daily lives...Hop on the bandwagon if you want and make a difference..
Don't the "Ethanol" bandits receive a healthy government " subsidy" and they still go belly up..
In closing, 51 out of 53 cars owned were not run on "corny gas" and I remember my time in Germany where I paid $0.18/gal for gas to propel my Porsches..
I got a notice lately from one of my charge sources that I can get another $2000 off of any negotiated pricing on all Chevrolet cars , including the Cruze..Based on ones accumulated earnings the upscale GM models are subject to whatever you have accumulated in your account..It's another giveaway at Govt Motors.. Lots of value in owning a GM product?????
Steve you are a "good host" and I wonder where the USA would be today without "Big Oil." Life would be different, you think????
No gloomy stats. They are under reporting the number of people out of work. They are over reporting the number of jobs by including part time jobs. Things are as rosy as they were under Carter or Clinton.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Kernick's explanation was right on the nose - it matters nothing who earns your vote, the same lobbyist-enabled special interest groups win no matter what. GM would have been aided no matter who was in office. We'd be in a trade surrender with our multinational competitors no matter who was elected over the past 40 years. It just doesn't matter in a defective and asinine two party system where real "class warfare" was actually launched by the 1%.
You're not going to be in the top few, and the stats we read in the corporate owned media grossly under-report the problems.
Regards,
OW
I think it takes $360k a year to be in the top 1%. Many made it there starting with $2 an hour jobs and working hard in college that they paid for by themselves or by taking risk and being entrepreneurs. They took business, construction, management, and finance in college. None of this did or didn't happen because of politicians or lobbyists.
The change in income gaps over the decade from 1996 to 2006 got worse. The middle 20% of America only saw a 10% rise in after tax income over that decade. The bottom 20% saw a 6% drop. But even the top 20% only saw a 38% increase or only about 3.5% per year compounded. As a middle 20 percenter, why be angry about a top 20 percenter gaining 2.5% per year on me? It would take just 1.3 hrs a week of overtime to undo that gain by the top 20 percenter in one of those years.
Let's see, I'm 59* and have lived in 9 towns and cities now. Without cheap oil for so many years, maybe one of those towns would have had okay public transportation. I'm in a walkable little town now and it's still just a bit too far to walk or bike to the grocery. I was close enough to a Fred Meyer's in Anchorage to walk there, and often did. Chattanooga, Memphis, Boise, forget it.
Maybe we should rehash the old conspiracy theory that GM killed off the trolley cars in favor of gas burning buses :shades:
Did you drive your Porsche to the market during your German years for your daily loaf of bread?
Volts are nice and all, but they aren't going to ease sprawl or congestion any.
(*thanks for including me in the younger generation.
To the republicans credit, some of them actually have decent morals, and a backbone, and actually followed the public's will and voted down the bailouts, at least the first time around.
Then the big wall street and Detroit execs promised a few politicians golden parachutes in their older age and got the votes required for another re-vote, and got the bailouts. I don't understand any reason for the change of heart (and change of votes) other than corruption. Corruption, corruption, immoral, and sinister is the only explanation in my book.
Ron Paul didn't vote for the bailouts.
Ron Paul for President (However, if Obama gets the HARP 2.0 program to work, that'll buy him some votes, including mine).
The cable card could not have possibly added more than $99.99 to the cost of your TV (and that's retail!).
The TV I'm sure is still fully functional, just use a table top cable box. I think the fault of the failure was more with cable companies, and copyright protection extremists, than it was with CR.
I don't think you should be very mad at CR for that. That would be like me being mad at them for having a couple half black dots on the Neon instead of a solid row of black.
So they use their money and our money to artificially drive up prices. When it comes crashing down they use none of their money, and all of OUR money to save their behinds.
This is how they gain on the middle class. It is not legit, it is not fair, it is not right, and it is immoral.
I say to the GUILLOTINEs for all the 1%!
My point was that CR was making suggestions and stating opinions about something of which it had incomplete knowledge.
If I was asking the clerk at Best Buy about it, it would have been a different story... Much the same as asking someone an opinion.
But, that isn't what CR claims to be. CR puts forth the impression that it makes informed decisions. In this particular case, CR was anything BUT informed.
I would say a much better example is buying a car based upon CR's recommendation of a low maintenance rating and then finding out CR ignored all the recalls and TSB's issued for the car...
All I'm saying is that, after that personal experience, I learned to take CR's recommendations with a lot less weight. I still read them, but I do far more research on any expensive product purchase now than take what CR says at face value.
Wanna travel across Europe?
You can fly, take the train, or drive.
Wanna go across the USA?
Fly or drive.
Not to mention that 99.9% of American communities are pedestrian "unfriendly", and I suspect it's a big reason so many more Americans are obese that Europeans.
When I go to visit friends in Germany, I'm always impressed how so many businesses are within walking distances from their house.
Still, you'll see a lot of Silverados down there, but people were using them to make a living, not to commute in.
My brother-in-law manages to get around Seattle and most of King County without a car, thanks to GM. They supply the Allison transmissions in many of the buses there. Beyond the urban areas, forget it.
(You forgot the postal and regular buses btw).
Many or likely a majority of the 1%ers work in well connected industries and/or were gifted in one way or another from birth. It's much more of a wealth construct than simply declared income. I'd wager there's been little wealth actually created in the past few decades, rather it's just a slow steady transfer from what was the working or middle class both downwards and upwards - but most of it going up. The rich have it better today than they have in generations. It's no coincidence, nor an accident. And construction? That entire boom existed because of politicians and lobbyists. Most businesses benefit from those forces.
Middle, top, and bottom 20%? Who was talking about 20th percentiles, and what about the missing 40% If someone thinks working 80 minutes a week of OT is going to save their lot, I don't know what to say. The key is in the differentials.
Class warfare is real. Those beloved 1%ers have launched war against the rest.
So GM trumpets the shutdown of Aveo production and the moving of production for the Spark to the US, then builds a new small SUV (of higher value than the Aveo) and does it in Korea?! That seems.....strange.
I've been saying this!
Interesting that years ago in these forums, at a time when GM said it couldn't make any money making smaller cars, I also complained that they should build a premium smaller car. BMW has been successful at it for decades. Well .... finally!!!! Hope the ATS lives up to its potential. GM really could become excellent, they just have to not let a few things screw it up. The Cruze could still get there with powertrain improvements and some better reliability. And the ATS also has the potential. Let's hope they succeed.
Now I'm not being paid like the previous GM execs, so I should charge for this advice that's better than their decisions a few years ago:
1 - Refine your cars, better interiors, better reliability - $2Million
2 - Build a premium smaller car that's actually world-class and you can charge enough to cover the costs and make an actual profit on it - $5million
Total - $7Million.
That advice makes me a lot cheaper than kLutz. Send the money to me, GM, for my sage advice! :P
CR is certainly not perfect, and their sampling is not what would be done in a statistically significant survey. HOWEVER, unless there's a good reason that the relative proportions of problems between makes for CR subscribers would vary substantially from those who are not CR subscribers, it's a pretty good approximation of a statistical sample. I haven't seen any plausible reason given that if you are a CR subscriber with a GM, you'd have WORSE reliablity relative to say, Toyota than a non-CR subscribing GM owner would than a non-subscribing Toyota owner.
As far as asking owners what they think of their cars, that's a wildly LESS statistically significant approach than CR's surveys. So it's pretty much meaningless, as there are happy and unhappy owners for any make. Except for GM since they are ALWAYS horrible! (See, I can use wild exaggeration, too. :P )
I had posted my explanations to this several times here.
If a subscription fee based Republican magazine conducts surveys among their readers which party is better, of course the results favor Republican because the Democrats would not pay their subscriptions to this magazine thus would not be in the survey.
Similarly, because the heavily biased favor the CR has, its readers are filtered to the same bias. If someones love their American cars and find the poor ratings on their cars by CR, they won't pay to renew their subscriptions next year. If someones buy Japanese cars based on CR's high rating on them and find out the cars are not as good as CR says, they won't pay to renew their subscriptions next year either. So the only ones left paying for it are the ones with the same belief or bias and the CR's surveys on them would only reinforce such bias.
My big concern in the world today, is that our government being driven by the military-industrial complex, seeing the war in Iraq come to an end, and the threats to some of their $ being discussed in deficit-reduction, are building a case to launch a war with Iran. Proof: normally information on Iran's nuclear program is kept secret; a few days Somehow! the information is given to the networks.
Is GM still involved in making military equipment, now that they sold-off Hummer? Whenever I saw "contractors" in Iraq, it seems they were driving new GM SUV's. The government seemed to be a good customer of Suburbans and Tahoes.
...and Big 3 CARS!!
Regards,
OW
Go ahead and let me know what those reasons were (are). Not everyone of those customers subscribe to CR. :confuse:
Regards,
OW
You are 100% spot on but that's the reason the recent OJ news regarding pesticides came up all of a sudden. How much more imported food is checked coming in? 1-5% perhaps? :sick:
Regards,
OW
I always expect an epiphany when I rent a foreign car. I'm virtually always left thinking, 'this is the greatest?'
Interesting post--perfect.
One detail I'd add is that our problem is the government folks. The elected and appointed all consider themselves as royalty. Picture the attitudes about how to govern the first 2 years of this regime--ram it through no matter what it does to the economy and the "little" people: cap and trade, socialized healthcare, higher gas prices to force money spending on those green projects by our donors..., etc.
The royalty in DC has the perfect life all at taxpayers' expense. They have the ability to justify what they do by pitting the "little" people against each other on details--look at how the Republican candidates have been examined with microscopes for anything that can be used to belittle them or their beliefs. Keep the outsiders who will cause dramatic change in DC out.
And the other perfect example is how the minimal help from our government in the auto industry has been a political tool. No one complained when government money was given to buyers of hybrid foreign vehicles who have received support from their government(s) in the past. But let our GM/C/F have money given, and kaboom, the perfect storm.
And at the same time people who espouse buying foreign brand cars built there or here complain that GM's new Buick is built in Korea. The perfect example of hypocrisy.
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The perfect observation. The foreign cars put on their wheels one lugnut at a time just like everyone else. The perfection they represent in some folks' minds is strictly that: in their minds.
I recall when our dear friend brought by her new Corolla and suggested I drive it, I was sorely disappointed at how tinny it was. Everything was super thin and minimal. And this was an "S" model with fancy plastic hung on the outside. I recall months later, the front bumper was hanging off on one side. The clips had been unsnapped, perhpas by someone bumping it from the front while parallel parked outside the theater in downtown Dayton a couple nights earlier. I noticed the bumper a year or more latter was unsnapped again.
The steering wheel position seemed off to the left rather than directly towar the driver. But she was perfectly happy with it. Her previous car was a '95 Civic, another of the wunderbar vehicles. I recall having to go over and work to get it started as it aged the last couple of years before she purchased the 2007 Corolla. It seemed not to start after damp days and cooler weather than the average. She complained how much they wanted to fix it everytime she took it in. She didn't have a lot of the stuff done.
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It was Summer and the temp was around 110ºF. During the drive to my hotel, the A/C could not even come close to cooling the interior down. On top of that, when I needed to make a quick last-second left turn as a signal would change, there was so little power, I needed to shut the A/C off to relieve the engine of the drag and have enough oomph to make my move.
The car had just 200 (HUNDRED) miles on the odo.
I called the rental agency from my hotel and asked if I could exchange the Hyundai for an American car and they said yes. I was given a 20,000 mile Cavalier (built in the plant I worked at) that had an Arctic wind for an A/C and had enough power without shutting the A/C off, and could run rings around the Hyundai!
From then on, I refuse to accept an Asian-branded rental car. The last time, they wanted to give me a Nissan Sentra, which they said was a mid-sized car. Well, excuuuuse me, but that is a compact car. I've built compact cars for many years and the Sentra is the same size and price as a Cavalier/Cobalt/Cruze. I paid extra for a Ford Fusion.
I remember when my uncle bought his '03 Corolla, it seemed like a decent little car. Maybe not an epiphany, or as Lemko used to say about the Impala "better than sex", but it definitely seemed like a good car. However, he also bought it on Memorial Day weekend, 2002, so consider the competition at the time. Chevy was still peddling the Cavalier, Mopar had the Neon, and Ford's Focus still had its teething problems.
At the time, the interior materials actually seemed pretty decent. The dash material was actually hard plastic, but had a nice texture to it. It looked as if it was soft to the touch, but once you rapped your knuckles on it, you knew it was just hard plastic. But, I have to give them some credit for trying. In contrast, my Dad's '03 Regal has some interior materials that I thought were just cheap, hard plastic, until I actually touched them.
Now, my uncle just has the cheap CE or C model, or whatever it's called. First time I drove it, I was impressed at a few of the features it had. For instance, it had an outside temperature display, and an inside release for the fuel filler door, two features that my much more expensive Intrepid didn't have. IIRC, it had one or two additional minor conveniences that my Intrepid lacked, but right offhand I can't remember what they were.
However, the first time I drove the car more than maybe 10-15 minutes, I realized what a horrible seating position it has. You really have to be built like an ape to be comfortable in it. The seat doesn't go back very far, but the the steering wheel is too far away, so you really need to have short legs and long arms to be comfortable. Also, while the steering wheel did adjust, it was the cheap, clunky type with the lever underneath that raises and lowers the whole column, and it didn't raise up far enough for me, as the wheel was still down between my knees.
Oddly though, I found the passenger seat to be pretty comfortable. And, for a small car, it's not a bad ride, if you're a passenger. However, as a driver, I find it too jittery. The slightest imperfections, crosswinds, etc seem to bounce it around in the lane.
I know the Corolla is supposedly all-new for 2008, but I've sat in a few of the newer ones, and I really don't feel much of a difference, compared to my uncle's car. It just feels kinda old and outdated today. But then, I don't think the Corolla has ever been considered a trendsetter...just a whitebread economy car that's supposed to be dependable and not throw you any surprises...good or bad. The Civic's always seemed a bit hipper and trendier, while the small Mazdas and Nissans (at least until the treacherous French got involved) usually seemed a touch sportier.
If I were going for a small car today, I don't think the Corolla would be very high on my list.
So, in rental-car speak, you got a full-size! :P Oh, as for the Nissan Sentra, if it was the current generation they were trying to give you, believe it or not, it actually IS classified as a mid-sized car! But then, so is a Cruze.
Was it new, or just a refresh on the exterior to keep up with the better looking rear (front is terrible) of the Civic. The newer Camry is just a refresh, too, isn't it.
There was something wrong in the position of the driver seat relative to the steering wheel which had an angle to its axis of rotation and to the pedals.
When I test drove the Cobalt that we bought, it was so much better than the small Corolla. I had expected some odd things to its driving position. Instead it was like driving an Impala, just with a console in the middle. The perfect car.
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My Cobalt's air is ice cold and will freeze you out on the hottest, most humid summer day. When friends got in to drive to nearby restaurant they commented how good the AC was compared to their Focus.
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I got to drive and ride in a Fusion during Christmas vacation. At 80 mph on suburban Detroit freeways through Novi it was impressive. When I drove it, I realized I had to test drive this if I chose to buy a new or used vehicle in the future. It had 14,000 mi and was a 2011 in bright red. A base model since no emblems were on the trunk. The 4-cyl engine and trans gearing weren't meshed as well as my Cobalt for spirited driving, but my typical driving is much less than spirited. It seemed that it would be a comfortable car for the 3.25 hour drive to visit our friends, e.g.
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Seriously, a 4speed vs a 6? I've yet to sample a GM automatic that was remotely geared or tuned for performance. Every one seems to be geared to high and take forever to down shift in the name of FE. Even the 6 speed gm vehicles I've driven are the same. Tall gearing and a reluctance to downshift and or slow to do so. Drives me nuts and I must not be, because many reviews I read make similar claims.
I haven't driven a Cobalt, but we did have an '05 Cavelier LS at work a few years back. That car was barely a step above walking. Just a lousy, uninspiring vehicle and I don't need CU or any Mag to tell me that.
I drove it a few times for company business. I couldn't stand it. The car was always the last picked, I'd often use my own vehicle at my own expense versus being miserable.
OTOH, I've never driven, ridden in, or really even looked at a Corolla. But my neighbor's wife bought a new on a year or so ago to replace her G6. He drives a Lucerne. Seems when they go out it's 50/50 on which car they ride together in. So I guess it can't be to bad.
I have driven various civics and accords over the years and have generally liked them. It's not that they are the most luxurious, the quietest, or even the most comfortable cars available. I like how they feel from behind the wheel. The powertrains are almost always responsive, the manual transmissions are a joy to operate, and the autos while they might not be the smoothest shifting, they always seem to find and stay in the right gear while offering quick downshifts. Handling wise, they are fun to drive.
I drove a buddies '08 CRV around his home in the Ozarks of southern Missouri. Sure it didn't have enough power, but I was amazed by how tight the handling was. It was actually fun to drive through the tight switchback roads. It felt more like a sporty sedan, than a upright CUV. Plus with 90k on it, it still had a tightness I don't experience with domestic vehicles.
I've had dozens of domestics. Everyone has loosened up once they've passed 70-80k miles on it. Some worse than others.
Last night I rode in a friends '08 Toyota Tundra Limited that has 70k on it. First thing I noticed, well besides how damn quick that truck is, and how much I really don't like the interior design or materials, is how much tighter it felt than my Expedition. Just no squeaks or rattles and it had a feeling of being built from one piece (regardless of what bed bounce youtube videos show). And of course, he hasn't had any trouble with it. Wish I could say the same of my domestic SUVs. My friend traded in a Silverado on the Tundra. Like me, he was tired of the problems he had with the Ford's and Chevy's he owned previously. He claims the Tundra is the first 1/2 ton he's owned which hasn't needed any repairs by 70k miles.
With my Suburban and Expedition (and the domestic company cars my wife has had), as they aged, all of the various components began feeling like they're coming apart a micron at a time.
But some people don't notice those things. My FIL loves his '95 Tahoe with 180k on it. When I drive it, I swear it's ready for the bone yard. Squeaks, rattles, vibrations, and weird noises etc. I couldn't live with it.
I agree with you that Occupiers should not use the "way-the-world-is" to justify that they should be entitled to income, in place of hard work and individual effort.
As with most causes, there are some things that are correct and some that aren't. All I wanted to point out is that the Occupiers are correct on that 1 point - the wealthy and powerful do control the governement and use the government for their own benefit. You may realize that since you've been a teenager and some others may understand that, but there are an awful lot of people who believe that if their party - Rep. or Dem. get into office, that there will be big changes and the U.S. will be Utopia.
The fact is that the UAW and other unions are still powerful, and GM and the other auto makers and suppliers were going to get $ directed to them, regardless of the rules of the game, or what the people who wrote the Constitution intended. If we're playing Monopoly or a basketball game, I do not expect the rules to change mid-stream to benefit 1 player or the other. The Bank does not give a player $2,000, or the basketball team to have a 6th guy on the court, because they are playing badly; and well we help each other (wink, wink).
So I'm advocating a fair-game. If we don't think some foreign country plays fair, then I say don't let them play - it's our game. We are still the 600 LB gorilla in the room, so we have the capability to make the game fair - if we want to.
Similarly I advocate a government that does not favor the wealthy and powerful over the rest of us. Why Dem or Rep Congress can't even agree to make Insider Trading of stocks illegal, for it's own members! The very people who have access to the MOST insider information! What chance does the typical 401K investor have to make the type of profits?
If you like the GM bailout, the bank bailouts, the increasing debt, lower employment, more welfare, more undeclared wars, ... keep voting for the typical Dem or Rep. Keep supporting the system, giving them money to acquire more $ and power, and dictate more of your lives. Keep shrugging your shoulders, and watching your TV when the government decides to change the rules of the game.
The tax credis on foreign hybrids are 100% tied to sales of those vehicles. No sales, no cost to the taxpayer or the treasury.
On the other hand, the bailouts were all cash up-front. In the end, it may have been a profitable investment, but its way too early to make that determination, IMO.
It does make me wonder, though, if instead of bailouts a similar tax credit was given to purchasers of big 3 vehicles.... What would public opinion be then?
Very good points.
I didn't go back to my original post, but I probably included the help given to foreign makers by their governments, in various forms. But the US did help the hybrid Prius with our own tax money.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,