All I can say, tlong, is either you are a business owner or you are not of the age where everyone got a pension and health care of some kind. This was not some new, 'socialist' kind of thing. It was the norm...and I'm a white-collar guy in an office my whole adult life. Up until I was in my early thirties, I honestly didn't know a soul in any job who didn't get these things. Now...sheesh.
Not a business owner. Have saved all my own money in IRAs and 401K. No pension, either. Grandma had a pension. Not my mom, either. Saved and scrimped after dad deserted us with no child support.
Re "the norm". With all due respect, norms don't last a long time, as the world is continually changing. We could be upset about the loss of individual farms in this country. That's a shame. We could also be sad for the stagecoach makers, blacksmiths, saddle makers, etc. that lost it all when the car came along. Also sad. I'm sure people back then were talking about how it was all different when they "made stagecoaches here in town and saddles down the street". Anybody who wants to be successful in our increasingly populated and competitive world of billions of people: don't EVER think things will always be the same. You need to be ready to learn and adapt, CONTINUOUSLY, for your entire life.
Are people doing poorly because their jobs are gone? Many who lost jobs are successful in other fields now. Is it the loss of industries that is the problem? Or is it that some people adapt better than others? Perhaps THAT is the real skill people need to have. And no, I don't necessarily like it, either. But it IS reality, and I don't see a ton of point over complaining about it.
Sometimes we forget to look at the big picture. Like it or not, we live in a society.
Looking at the big picture, almost all of us live in the U.S. I heard a great quote somewhere: "If you were born in the U.S., you have already won the lottery". The U.S. - where even the poor people are fat. It isn't so bad. It only seems bad when comparing yourselves to the Jonses with the 10K sq. foot house and the Bimmer and Benz in the driveway. Compared to the average person in the world, almost everybody in the U.S. is still rich.
Sometimes we forget to look at the big picture. Like it or not, we live in a society.
Agree with your reply to the above. And let me add:
Who was more pro-society than the Communists of the old Soviet Union and Mao's China? Everyone was supposedly working for the good of society, rather than for themselves. Everyone's boat was supposed to rise. Certainly though those societies weren't good to many people. Extremism.
The U.S. per my interpretation of the historical documents of the 18th century, is based on a society, but where individuals have freedoms that allow them to live in the street, or become the next Steve Jobs. You can withdraw from society and live under an overpass, or in the wilds out West, or you can work 3 jobs and be on 10 charities. Or as circumstances have it, you may do both.
Now to the GM situation - as we see the GM of today is not like the GM of the 50's and 60's. The situation in the last decade was telling GM - "your system doesn't fit well with the economic climate". If you believe in Global Warming, then maybe you wonder if polar bears are getting the message of the changes that are coming. I'm not happy about the current global economy, and my country's policies over the decades which have created our own competitors! The world is such now that business models like GM's now have to be supported by the government. The Postal Service is going thru a similar thing. The world is changing, and does not value your work like 50 years ago, such that you "earn" a good wage - or what you did before.
Most of Europe is broke trying to give its citizens Good wages and benefits, and guaranteeing what jobs are left, and the U.S. is speeding down that road by overspending - keeping inefficiencies in the economy. If you have kids or grandkids, or expect to, make no mistake that they will be paying more to pay for the excess spending and entitlements of the Current systems. We're living beyond our means.
I've never had one hour of unemployment compensation in my life. Everything I have, is also from 401-K's and IRA's. But I have to wonder, what caused the change in the late '80's/early '90's to not giving pensions, after decades of doing so. Was it that suddenly none of these companies could afford to? I think it's more like one big company got rid of them, it made the papers, and then all execs were like "If them, why not us?" It's not like non-union employees like me were demanding them; it's like all of a sudden, we're told, 'tough s....'. More me, me, me...and at the top as well as at the bottom. Bad for a society as a whole.
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Find somewhere that the executive compensation packages are tracked vs the total amount going into pensions for the worker bees. I think you'll find your answer in the shift of emphasis from valuing the worker to giving tens of millions and more in compensation packages and parachutes to top executives.
Comparing goods such as retirement monies and healthcare other niceties of first world life to communist horrors is a bit of a stretch. Makes me think maybe the hypocritical babbles of Ayn Rand are being taken seriously. One has a better chance of winning a powerball jackpot and being struck by lightning and a meteor all on the same day than becoming Steve Jobs.
Do we really want an 18th or 19th century socio-economic spectrum again? Was life at the time of Dickens better or worse than now?
The Europe that is actually developed and works more than 25 hours a week isn't going broke. If I want to see entitlements, I will look towards our trickle up economic policy of the past 30 or so years, then to 65 years of foreign policy idiocy. If all that was axed, I wonder what reality we would have today.
Well said...anyone who doesn't agree should peek at what CEOs are making nowadays.
{steps on his soap box...}
Competitors arrived who could do things better (Europe) or cheaper with less overhead/legacy cost (Japan). Bye bye expensive pensions and $100/hour unionized fork lift operators. It simply wasn't sustainable.
The irony is Korea is now doing the same to Japan, and soon China could out-price Korea. Or they might just steal enough intellectual property that they eliminate all R&D costs and compete in that manner, by cheating.
Unfortunately for the domestics the bean counters took over from the engineers, and they kept looking at how to cut costs and compete on price, vs. building the best products they could. We can save $10 per unit be eliminating balance shafts on the Quad 4. Who cares if the engine shakes violently and the buyer never buys another GM product again, we will meet our Q4 targets and get bonuses! Woo-hoo!
The smart manufacturers did the opposite. They built the best small cars they could, often at a loss (dumping?), to hook the buyer. Someone who bought a Civic back then is now on their 3rd Acura. Tercel buyers drive a Lexus. Olds owners with that Quad 4 can't buy another Olds. Does anyone really wonder why?
Any how, I think GM has done well when they swing for the fences, rather than focusing just on cost cutting.
Want to save money? Fire the bean counters.
The Japanese have blinked, though. The new Civic sucks, basically. Let's not pull any punches. People are lining up to buy Elantras, and they're stealing share and building future loyal buyers like nobody else.
Wanna bet that Elantra owner buys a Genesis once they're ready to step up? No wonder Acura is struggling.
{end rant}
At the end of the day, it comes down to the product. For GM, the important thing is to build quality in to the Sonic and Cruze. The Spark is crucial because that buyer is young and will buy another GM every 7 years or so if they have as good an experience as the guy who bought that Civic back in college in the 1980s.
Looking at the big picture, almost all of us live in the U.S. I heard a great quote somewhere: "If you were born in the U.S., you have already won the lottery".
I say this all the time - used to remind my kids when they'd complain about how "bad" they had it. I've posted it a few times in the Obama discussion, so I'm going to assume you heard it from me and claim total, unmerited credit.
It's one of the few countries in the world where you are welcome to re-invent yourself at any time, and as many times as you like, with ample opportunity to do so.
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I've always felt they should ditch the 1.8l engine entirely, or just use it for fleet sales. The 1.4T is more efficient and has a lot more torque to boot.
Maybe built with Arabian Peninsula money, they like to hide it in Switzerland, and they like the chrome look. Then it's also probably actually silver plated solid gold.
I've never had one hour of unemployment compensation in my life. Everything I have, is also from 401-K's and IRA's. But I have to wonder, what caused the change in the late '80's/early '90's to not giving pensions, after decades of doing so. Was it that suddenly none of these companies could afford to? I think it's more like one big company got rid of them, it made the papers, and then all execs were like "If them, why not us?" It's not like non-union employees like me were demanding them; it's like all of a sudden, we're told, 'tough s....'. More me, me, me...and at the top as well as at the bottom. Bad for a society as a whole.
There's actually an easy answer to your question.
Federal regulations changed that forced companies to start accounting for the costs of promised pension benefits in total, not just what were actually current benefit costs being paid.
Of course, this little "change" wasn't applicable to the federal government.
Before, a large company's financials looked much rosier to investors, but afterwards the potential investor had a much better picture of what additional (and usually unfunded, or at least underfunded) costs were going to hit down the road.
Its no wonder that so many large corps. ditched funded pensions and moved towards contributing to IRAs and other types of retirement vehicles.
Anyone well versed on financial interpretation realized years before the bailouts that GM was already broke and would require some sort of major modification to remain in existence....
And, that's probably the most significant difference between the big 3 and Wall Street. The big 3 knew for a decade or more what the future held for them, while investment bankers were gambling Las Vegas style, hoping to continue with a winning hand each time the cards were dealt.
Consumer Reports has just wrapped up an evaluation of subcompact sedans, and the Kia Rio EX has rolled out ahead of the class. The four-door beat out its corporate clone, the Hyundai Accent and the Chevrolet Sonic to take the top spot. Evaluators pointed to the sharp handling and well-optioned interior in the Rio as reasons for the vehicle's win. The newly redesigned Nissan Versa and unloved Toyota Yaris filled out the top five sedans. And what of the baby hatchbacks? CR once again credited the Honda Fit as leader of the pack, followed closely by the Versa Hatchback and Rio Hatchback.
The organization found fault with the base Chevrolet Sonic's fuel economy, and found the turbocharged LTZ model to be too expensive. Evaluators also felt the Sonic Turbo "didn't live up to its sporty aspirations."
Consumer Reports has just wrapped up an evaluation of subcompact sedans, and the Kia Rio EX has rolled out ahead of the class. The four-door beat out its corporate clone, the Hyundai Accent and the Chevrolet Sonic to take the top spot. Evaluators pointed to the sharp handling and well-optioned interior in the Rio as reasons for the vehicle's win
I wouldn't waste a minute of my time reading anything in CR. They are obviously anti domestic auto and avidly anti-GM. I recently compared the JD Power dependabiliy survey of 2008 vehicles, in which GM brands collectively scored better than about half of the Asian brands.. notably Nissan, Hyundai, Mazda, Infiniti and others in addition to VW.
However when I compared that result to the CR ratings for particular 2008 vehicles, I found the largest discrepencies were found in GM vehicles. In fact the 2008 Equinox won the mid-SUV dependability award at JD but CR showed it worse than average in reliabiltiy.
I cancelled my subscription to CR a couple of years ago when I noticed that they had scored a 2008 Hyundai Elatra higher than my wife's 2008 Saturn Aura XR. My son's friend has a 2010 Elantra and the only superiority that I could admit to between that car and my wife's is the gas mileage. The Aura was and is smooth, powerful, quiet, loaded with features, relatively inexpensive, and dead on reliable. It also easily gets over 30 highway mpg and on regular gas.
CR continues to send me their magazines along with subscription renewal requests, both of which go right into the trash.
Maybe because I'm a car guy, I would never buy another car just because a magazine said another brand inched it out in a comparo test, if I liked the 'lesser' car, better. Where is the Rio built? is it here? I really don't know. I know the Sonic is from Michigan. That means more to me than whatever inane paper-thin this or that difference they talk about. Really. But of course I realize that most people aren't 'car' people and generally follow whatever they're told. The term 'sheeple' rankled someone here once so I won't use it again.
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Was life at the time of Dickens better or worse than now?
In some ways better, and some ways worse. We certainly have better toys and creature comforts. But do we have more freedom and opportunity now? No. Like many people I sit in cube for 40 years, pushing inane paperwork, and live in a society that is no less corrupt than any other age. I'll take the 18th and 19th centuries for freedom, over comfort any day. I'd always like to try my hand at "prospecting" in the Old West.
I see GM is heading off some other problem witht the Volt. ... some Volt owners have complained that their 120-volt charger "overheats during use and have even documented online videos of melted 120-volt chargers."
Re "the norm". With all due respect, norms don't last a long time, as the world is continually changing. We could be upset about the loss of individual farms in this country. That's a shame. We could also be sad for the stagecoach makers, blacksmiths, saddleakers, etc. that lost it all when the car came along. Also sad. I'm sure people back then were talking about how it was all different when they "made stagecoaches here in town and saddles down the street". Anybody who wants to be successful in our increasingly populated and competitive world of billions of people: don't EVER think things will always be the same. You need to be ready to learn and adapt, CONTINUOUSLY, for your entire life.
An excellent post by tlong.
Too many of Americans today are spoiled. Were not able to or tried to talk to parents, grandparents, great grandparents on what was NOT handed to them and they had to either do without or make extreme sacrifices to survive.
The ultimate spoiling of Americans is the politicians in DC promising to take care of them from birth to death, which is the health care law and other entitlements.
I can't say I buy a claim that there was more opportunity then. A lot harder to rise out of nothing then than now - as higher education was very difficult to get if you weren't born lucky. Chances are then, instead of sitting in a cube with a dreary soul-draining job (I am in the same boat, so I feel your pain), you'd be in a sweatshop or an unregulated coal mine, or if you were lucky, on a farm out in the middle of nowhere living in a soddie and toiling to an early grave. That's not freedom to me. At least in modern times, you are free to try to pursue an education and at least reach a living wage level. As a statistic, very few went out prospecting and very few hit it big. I'll take my cube, and my relatively comfortable life outside of it. Although we are like that era in a way - we too have robber barons consolidating huge corrupt wealth with impunity.
Cars didn't go away like saddlery and stagecoaches; our industry got lazy, people bought foreign imports and refuse to forgive the home industry, sadly. Our economy has suffered for it.
In my hometown, the major industry that left was a railcar manufacturer. Railcars haven't gone away; they're made in Mexico for third-world wages now. Are Americans supposed to work for wages paid in Mexico and China and Korea? That is a huge difference between technology advances earlier in this country in the last century, and what has been happening the last thirty years or so.
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Cars didn't go away like saddlery and stagecoaches; our industry got lazy, people bought foreign imports and refuse to forgive the home industry, sadly.
Wasn't the bailout a forgiving of GM's incompetence and failures? Sheesh!
Cars are a commodity like PC's are now. They aren't going away but instead are changing into extremely efficient and safe transportation. Now the affordability factor is driving a new era of change into micro vehicles. A Harley costs more than an Aveo, for instance.
Just like the horse and buggy, cars are not the engine of the economy like they were in the USA decades back. Change is inevitable. Those '60's muscle cars are great but the cars today are better in every way.
Did GM learn it's lessons? Regardless, we can never go back and change the facts. We can only move forward to enjoy (or not) the changes for the best.
Like it or not, GM will never lead again as in the past. :surprise:
Are Americans supposed to work for wages paid in Mexico and China and Korea?
Again, that is a consequence of our political leaders first allowing the transfer of technology to those countries, and then our corporate leaders taking advantage of that by setting up operations there. But somewhere along the way the citizenry of this country allowed the wealthy and corporations to buy both parties, and allow this to happen.
So yes - in many cases where somewone in another country can make the same thing as people here can, then the people here must decide on - No job or Low wage job, or get paid Good wages with the realization that the firm will fail and the government will bail it out and subsidize it. Thus GM and the UAW went broke, and now are being subsidized.
It'll happen again at 1 of the next financial crises. And you'll see the government again come in and pull another "cash for clunkers", "R&D loans", "buy stock in GM", and things like that. Right now the New GM's main subsidy is - not paying income tax on their first $40B in profit. It allows them to sell each and every vehicle at a price lower than they otherwise would.
It'll happen again at 1 of the next financial crises. And you'll see the government again come in and pull another "cash for clunkers", "R&D loans", "buy stock in GM", and things like that. Right now the New GM's main subsidy is - not paying income tax on their first $40B in profit. It allows them to sell each and every vehicle at a price lower than they otherwise would.
Exactly. History will repeat itself in the case of GM, C and F. C are the"experts" at it but GM had farther and longer to fall but eventually the miscalculations caught up at the end of the day. Even Ford had to sell it's soul to survive but rightly did it themselves. Ford is the US auto manufacturer that should be honored for that alone.
Actually, the auto companies of the next century will not be the top 10 that exist today. Just look at the Dow components in 1920:
March 1, 1920 American Can Baldwin Locomotive Texas Company American Car and Foundry Central Leather U.S. Rubber American Locomotive Corn Products U.S. Steel American Smelting General Electric Company Utah Copper American Sugar Goodrich Western Union American Telephone and Telegraph Company Republic Iron and Steel Westinghouse Electric Anaconda Copper Studebaker
Now, 2012: Company Name Symbol 3M CO MMM ALCOA INC AA AMERICAN EXPRESS AXP AT&T Inc. T BANK OF AMERICA BAC BOEING CO BA CATERPILLAR INC CAT CHEVRON CORP CVX COCA-COLA CO KO CISCO SYSTEMS CSCO DISNEY (WALT) CO DIS DU PONT (EI) DD EXXON MOBIL CORP XOM GENERAL ELECTRIC GE HEWLETT-PACKARD HPQ HOME DEPOT INC HD IBM IBM INTEL CORP INTC JOHNSON&JOHNSON JNJ JP MORGAN CHASE JPM KRAFT FOODS INC KFT MCDONALDS CORP MCD MERCK & CO MRK MICROSOFT CORP MSFT PFIZER PFE PROCTER & GAMBLE PG TRAVELERS COS IN TRV UNITED TECH CORP UTX VERIZON COMMUNICATIONS VZ WAL-MART STORES WMT
Studebaker was the only auto manufacturer in the Dow back in 1920 and today, no US auto manufacturer is represented. GM dropped of at bankruptcy time. Let's see if it ever makes it back in.
That's all interesting, but Chrysler didn't even exist in 1920. I would wager that even as of 1920 most Americans did not own an automobile.
GM does do some things right, but so many on this board are like Fonzie on 'Happy Days' when he was unable to make his lips form the word 'wrong'.
I have gotten good service from my GM's, and I get good service from the experienced folks at my dealership. And as a side note, I am benefitting local folks who build Chevys down the road, and helping more Americans work, including suppliers. There's no negative in any of that, try as one might.
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Cars didn't go away like saddlery and stagecoaches; our industry got lazy, people bought foreign imports and refuse to forgive the home industry, sadly.
Don't forget that auto manufacturing is a very healthy industry in the U.S. today. We make more cars than we did in the 60's. They're just not all D3 cars. And the processes are much more efficient, requiring fewer workers. Not unlike many other industries have evolved.
The story is not one of a lost industry, but of a few companies (and a union) who failed to adapt to the times.
GM does do some things right, but so many on this board are like Fonzie on 'Happy Days' when he was unable to make his lips form the word 'wrong'.
Agreed, GM does some things right and I for one am glad they do right by you. I accept I am wrong more times than I am right!
That's all interesting, but Chrysler didn't even exist in 1920. I would wager that even as of 1920 most Americans did not own an automobile.
True. No one owned a PC or a cell phone in 1980 let alone an i-anything. The point is, there will be phenomenal changes in the automotive industry in the next several decades.
I wager GM might not even be around 100 years from now but that will not mean we will not have outstanding transportation choices! :shades:
There's no negative in any of that, try as one might.
The negative is that GM was artificially kept around, and the GM system along with the UAW, are artificially kept around. GM should have been replaced - the corporation and its system. The workers and factories should have been sold off, broken up, or sold to the highest bidder, to produce vehicles under some other organization - say HN.
Then your neighbors could have gone top work at those local HN factories, and made a competitive wage for the products they produced. Just like local people arouind the country go to work for Caterpillar, GE, IBM, Exxon-Mobil, Citi, Johnson&Johnson, Dupont ...
If any of those companies make products that are surpassed by someone else, somewhere else, either in quality or cost, or those corporations have inefficient systems then I expect them to die off, and be replaced. As circlew just showed, it is NORMAL for large corp. and industries to come and go. Autos is not an exception. GM and C were saved for political reasons, and friends were taken care of.
I don't like the government playing favorites. What's hard to understand about that? Would you watch sports if there were different rules and enforcement for different players and teams? If some competitors cheat - why let them play with you?
I expect you will get at least one response saying that cheating is exactly what caused the big-3's problems... Mainly, by imports playing by a different set of rules.
And, a case can certainly be made to support that argument. However, it's a bit more difficult to claim discriminatory practices when those competitors are building similar products in the same country, as most Japanese and Korean manufacturers do today.
In fact, one doesn't have to look very long in order to find some "sweetheart deals" given exclusively to the big-3.
In the end, a company must change with the times to stay competitive. The big-3 had known company-strangling legacy costs pending for at least 2 decades and management pretty much decided to kick the issue down the road. It appears they lucked out, as the government came to the rescue.
Change is quite often painful, messy, and uneven in how if affects all the participants. We can remember the "good old days" of small, b&w round TV screens and bias-ply tires, but I doubt many would want to return to either, even if they had known in advance that radial tires and wide flat-screen TVs would cost jobs in America.
Or sometimes, people bought foreign because the home team simply didn't offer a competing product. This is how the Germans annihilated the upper end of the market. For a long time, they had no legitimate competition.
I wonder what real world manufacturing wages are in South Korea...it's not a third world slum by any means. Americans shouldn't and can't work for less developed wages, nor should those inputs be allowed to play on this market with a level playing field.
How could the citizenry not allow it to happen, outside of a literal guillotine-style revolution? I don't know if Joe Sixpack has much say, or really ever has.
People shouldn't decide on sweatshop wages vs starvation, but decide how free trade can be fair trade.
When are you going to need a car? 2112? You have enough to make it through then just on attrition!
Eh, it'll happen eventually. My '85 Silverado has been at death's door for awhile now, it seems...it just can't muster up the courage to ring the bell! Actually, I just drove it today, when I went to Home Depot to pick up some trees. It still drives pretty well and accelerates fine, but eventually, rust is going to claim it.
And I hate to say it, but I just don't see my 2000 Park Ave making it to really high miles or old age like some of my other cars. It only has about 81,000 miles on it now, but it's had things fail that never failed on my old 2000 Intrepid in the 150,000 miles I had it. Or, to use a GM reference, my Mom's old '86 Monte Carlo and Grandmom's '85 LeSabre actually aged better. But, who knows? It could prove me wrong! Maybe it just had "teething" problems, and will ultimately prove to last a good long time?
One thing that's a killer these days is labor rates and repair costs in general. The price of brand-new cars really hasn't gone up much, when you factor in how much is standard on them these days, and the performance and economy you get out of them. But, with older cars, as they break down, they just become more and more expensive to fix.
Barring theft, a fire, or an accident, I see having my 1989 Cadillac Brougham for life. Heck, even my wife's LaCrosse that had a brush with death last February looks like it's going to be a long-term member of our fleet. It's had absolutely no mechanical or electronic failures in the past 7 years we've owned it. The DTS is driven sparingly, so it's foreseeable I'll have that one a long time as well. The only car in our fleet that has a questionable future is the Grand Marquis. It's got 98K+ miles on it and is something of a gas hog. I swear the Brougham gets better fuel economy. That car makes me really miss my 1988 Park Avenue.
The average 36-month residual value for the 2012 model year ranges from 42.2 percent for Suzuki to 52.5 percent for Mini. Foreign makes are expected to outperform domestic manufacturers substantially in retained value. Buick tops domestic manufacturers, with an average residual value across models of 45.5 percent, barely reaching the industry midpoint.
As you know, the incentives and fleet sales keep GM at some of the least residual values in the industry.
Would you root for a team that had a coach and/or players involved it sexual molestation changes brought against them, especially when there was overwhelming evidence to support those charges?
How about doping? Charges of theft?
Should the US Olympic team allow doping, just because opposing teams might have better prepared teams?
It's one thing to be wrongly accused of wrongdoing (Duke LaCross team comes to mind). It's quite another to be doing what the N.O. saints did in trying to injure opposing team players.
So, if I'm guessing that if you happened to be a Saints fan none of that would have any impact on your team support.
You know, any good parent would tell you of the Importance of disciplining a child when he was doing wrong.
And, there's the problem. The big-3 never had an adult forcefully tell them what they were doing was wrong. Then again, perhaps you don't think they were acting out of order.
Any accounting student worth his salt could see what was coming for the big-3 decades ago. It was no surprise...except to the management.
It's never acceptable to tell your child he's right when it's clear he isn't.
The same goes for ANY company.
That doesn't mean you don't care, or that you're pulling for them to lose.
GM shared all it's income with it's union and with it's non-union employees. It shared money it didn't have too. Lets take the debt from $10T to $15T in 3.2 years - record time - and then just keep going. When asked what we are going to do to stop it or slow it down, we'll just explain that it's enough of a task to administer $3.7T per year and so there isn't enough time left to explain about it. Just like GM did, we have all been doing as a country since 2004. Spending what we don't have to satisfy the masses.
Hypocrisy is when we all do it as a country but don't want GM to do it.
I buy for now, not for resale value. And remember learning the 'time value of money' when in school? Money saved now is worth more down the road.
And I say this respectfully, busiris, but to compare GM with a child molester doesn't pass the smell test. I'd swear in shaking my head here, but the moderator would delete it.
I'd still root for my team, while getting rid of the problem. People here say no GM problems have been overcome, which is a farce.
I still think Freud would have a field day on this forum. Why absolute GM haters would post the same stuff here again...and again...and again....and again....is a complete mystery to me. I hate Toyotas, but I never posted there until a couple weeks ago...when somebody's 'fuzzy math' tried to say that whatever problem someone had mentioned in a Toyota was last built in the year 2006...'seven years ago', then tried to tell me when I pointed it out that you include 2006 when counting years. Sheesh! Romper-room stuff! This has nothing to do with model years coming out early, or anything...the discussion was 'when this problem was last built.'
I replied that I was born in 1958 but that doesn't mean I will be 55 in 2012.
Sheesh.
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Then you should be more careful in directing your remarks.
I've been one of the few supporters of the Volt here.
The only time I have commented on GM's past is to acknowledge what they did. It was wrong then, it's wrong now, and it will always be wrong. Same for Chrysler and Ford.
Those who wish to shift the blame to the unions, etc. are no different than the rapist claiming the victim was at fault because she "was asking for it".
Pure and simple, the big-3 management teams knew what was coming for years, and gambled they would be bailed out. In a nutshell, these "leaders" put their own personal fortunes ahead of the company, the employee and the investor.
And, their gamble paid off, due to the corrupt government we currently have that picks winners and losers by who has the most lucrative lobbyist organizations.
That's hardly anything to be rooting for or admiring.
I drive BMW's, but I gave BMW no "escape clause" when they ignored the high pressure fuel pump issues over the last several years, just as I chastised GM for the Sonic missing brake pads issue.
Wrong is Wrong.
Frankly, you usually come across as the mother on late nite news who claims her son is a "good boy", even though he just got convicted of murder during an armed robbery.
And, in fact, the bail outs were just short of armed robbery of the Taxpayer.
Do yourself a little service and do a little research into how long the calamity that befell the big 3 was foretold. This didn't just suddenly pop up a year or 2 ago.
Now, enough about what was because it can't be changed. What's done is done.
Personally, I'll applaud The domestics when they do good, and I'll chastise them when they screw up... Just as I will BMW or any other make I'm interested in.
I suggest you cease in attempting to live in the past as well. Everyone should be more concerned about making sure the important mistakes made earlier are understood and not allowed to occur again, rather than spending time about making excuses for failed prior performances.
I don't condone the huge debts we have run up as a country, but I would say that anyone trying to use that as an excuse for The big-3's failure is moronic.
Satisfy the masses? Isn't it more like satisfying the politicians' pocketbooks?
Go tell the other large companies that got no bailouts, such as Kodak, how everyone gets treated fairly....
Regardless of your views, GM FOLLOWS in almost every metric I've posted. Of course, they are the leaders in global sales! ...but not in profits. :lemon:
Somehow, and Freud must know, all the GM failures seem to be the fault of the posters on this forum that point out the continued weakness and what led to the bankruptcy of the largest auto manufacturer in the USA with 50% market share at it's zenith.
Well, your reality is great for you. No question.
GM, however, has learned the hard way and still has some learning to do. I'll keep reminding of that weakness, if you don't mind.
hypocrisy: GM pays it's employees too much. The gov taxes every dime they are paid. Even the 'too much' part is taxed. Then GM is in BK and no taxes get paid and hypocrites complain that GM isn't paying enough taxes.
The masses are the 148 million housholds getting a gov check. The ss recipients and the medicare recipients are just getting back what they paid in. The rest just want to vote in a leader that will guard their free check. Then their are the 25 million getting a gov paycheck. they end up joining the masses.
I didn't know until yesterday that Buffet and Gates each own a railroad that will replace the KXL pipeline. Their RR's also just ordered 1400 new tanker cars from a co. owned by Buffet. Cozy little world generating $4 gas for us all.
I've bought a new vehicle in the last nine months. Have you? I don't buy new cars as status symbols, though, as some people do, even though we could afford to buy more expensive cars, or to just follow the crowd. We choose not to.
Anyone who denies that there were more choices in bodystyles, trim levels, colors, and interior choices then than now, is being disingenuous. That's fact, not living in the past.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
'98 Astro was bad...85% in 13 yrs. most of that in the first 4 yrs '00 S-10 4 cyl great on dep....3% in 1 yr '01 Silv ext cab 4X4 great too..You can't get one with triple the miles mine has on it for less than $10k '10 Malibu great too...none fuel costs in some of those years was $7k '96 Riv was bad but I got it used and have put 96k on it. First 2 owners took 70%. I took 25%. Est $10,220 on fuel in Riv for the 96k miles compared to $6k dep. '98 Mustang bought used has almost none in 60k miles, 8 yrs. Over $7k in fuel so far. fuel dwarfs depreciation for many
Why absolute GM haters would post the same stuff here again...and again...and again....and again....is a complete mystery to me. I hate Toyotas, but...
Perhaps there's the difference. For my self, I don't HATE any car company - and certainly not GM. Looks like you're different.
I don't use that term lightly.
What I do HATE is sloth, arrogance, uselessness, and anybody (person, company, etc.) being rewarded for poor behavior. Anything that removes merit as a determinant of success - whether it be unions, generous parents, favoritism, etc., appalls me. So that's why I post here, because (as I've said before), I hope that GM can actually pull it together and be successful. That's hardly hate. And I suspect what is true for me is true for a lot of other posters, as well.
"Hate" was too strong a word for me to use. I get Toyotas as rentals on occasion; it's not that I refuse them.
I'm always expecting an epiphany, but it never happens. Last one I had, the 'Traction Control' light stayed on and the front end had bad control arm bushing noises. This in a 15K mile Camry. Clearly the worst rental car I had last year.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Comments
Not a business owner. Have saved all my own money in IRAs and 401K. No pension, either. Grandma had a pension. Not my mom, either. Saved and scrimped after dad deserted us with no child support.
Re "the norm". With all due respect, norms don't last a long time, as the world is continually changing. We could be upset about the loss of individual farms in this country. That's a shame. We could also be sad for the stagecoach makers, blacksmiths, saddle makers, etc. that lost it all when the car came along. Also sad. I'm sure people back then were talking about how it was all different when they "made stagecoaches here in town and saddles down the street". Anybody who wants to be successful in our increasingly populated and competitive world of billions of people: don't EVER think things will always be the same. You need to be ready to learn and adapt, CONTINUOUSLY, for your entire life.
Are people doing poorly because their jobs are gone? Many who lost jobs are successful in other fields now. Is it the loss of industries that is the problem? Or is it that some people adapt better than others? Perhaps THAT is the real skill people need to have. And no, I don't necessarily like it, either. But it IS reality, and I don't see a ton of point over complaining about it.
Sometimes we forget to look at the big picture. Like it or not, we live in a society.
Looking at the big picture, almost all of us live in the U.S. I heard a great quote somewhere: "If you were born in the U.S., you have already won the lottery". The U.S. - where even the poor people are fat. It isn't so bad. It only seems bad when comparing yourselves to the Jonses with the 10K sq. foot house and the Bimmer and Benz in the driveway. Compared to the average person in the world, almost everybody in the U.S. is still rich.
Agree with your reply to the above. And let me add:
Who was more pro-society than the Communists of the old Soviet Union and Mao's China? Everyone was supposedly working for the good of society, rather than for themselves. Everyone's boat was supposed to rise. Certainly though those societies weren't good to many people. Extremism.
The U.S. per my interpretation of the historical documents of the 18th century, is based on a society, but where individuals have freedoms that allow them to live in the street, or become the next Steve Jobs. You can withdraw from society and live under an overpass, or in the wilds out West, or you can work 3 jobs and be on 10 charities. Or as circumstances have it, you may do both.
Now to the GM situation - as we see the GM of today is not like the GM of the 50's and 60's. The situation in the last decade was telling GM - "your system doesn't fit well with the economic climate". If you believe in Global Warming, then maybe you wonder if polar bears are getting the message of the changes that are coming. I'm not happy about the current global economy, and my country's policies over the decades which have created our own competitors! The world is such now that business models like GM's now have to be supported by the government. The Postal Service is going thru a similar thing. The world is changing, and does not value your work like 50 years ago, such that you "earn" a good wage - or what you did before.
Most of Europe is broke trying to give its citizens Good wages and benefits, and guaranteeing what jobs are left, and the U.S. is speeding down that road by overspending - keeping inefficiencies in the economy. If you have kids or grandkids, or expect to, make no mistake that they will be paying more to pay for the excess spending and entitlements of the Current systems. We're living beyond our means.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Do we really want an 18th or 19th century socio-economic spectrum again? Was life at the time of Dickens better or worse than now?
The Europe that is actually developed and works more than 25 hours a week isn't going broke. If I want to see entitlements, I will look towards our trickle up economic policy of the past 30 or so years, then to 65 years of foreign policy idiocy. If all that was axed, I wonder what reality we would have today.
{steps on his soap box...}
Competitors arrived who could do things better (Europe) or cheaper with less overhead/legacy cost (Japan). Bye bye expensive pensions and $100/hour unionized fork lift operators. It simply wasn't sustainable.
The irony is Korea is now doing the same to Japan, and soon China could out-price Korea. Or they might just steal enough intellectual property that they eliminate all R&D costs and compete in that manner, by cheating.
Unfortunately for the domestics the bean counters took over from the engineers, and they kept looking at how to cut costs and compete on price, vs. building the best products they could. We can save $10 per unit be eliminating balance shafts on the Quad 4. Who cares if the engine shakes violently and the buyer never buys another GM product again, we will meet our Q4 targets and get bonuses! Woo-hoo!
The smart manufacturers did the opposite. They built the best small cars they could, often at a loss (dumping?), to hook the buyer. Someone who bought a Civic back then is now on their 3rd Acura. Tercel buyers drive a Lexus. Olds owners with that Quad 4 can't buy another Olds. Does anyone really wonder why?
Any how, I think GM has done well when they swing for the fences, rather than focusing just on cost cutting.
Want to save money? Fire the bean counters.
The Japanese have blinked, though. The new Civic sucks, basically. Let's not pull any punches. People are lining up to buy Elantras, and they're stealing share and building future loyal buyers like nobody else.
Wanna bet that Elantra owner buys a Genesis once they're ready to step up? No wonder Acura is struggling.
{end rant}
At the end of the day, it comes down to the product. For GM, the important thing is to build quality in to the Sonic and Cruze. The Spark is crucial because that buyer is young and will buy another GM every 7 years or so if they have as good an experience as the guy who bought that Civic back in college in the 1980s.
I say this all the time - used to remind my kids when they'd complain about how "bad" they had it. I've posted it a few times in the Obama discussion, so I'm going to assume you heard it from me and claim total, unmerited credit.
It's one of the few countries in the world where you are welcome to re-invent yourself at any time, and as many times as you like, with ample opportunity to do so.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/22/2012-chevrolet-sonic-turbo-now-available-with- -six-speed-automati/
I've always felt they should ditch the 1.8l engine entirely, or just use it for fleet sales. The 1.4T is more efficient and has a lot more torque to boot.
Tacky as heck, why couldn't it have been done in Bronze?
There's actually an easy answer to your question.
Federal regulations changed that forced companies to start accounting for the costs of promised pension benefits in total, not just what were actually current benefit costs being paid.
Of course, this little "change" wasn't applicable to the federal government.
Before, a large company's financials looked much rosier to investors, but afterwards the potential investor had a much better picture of what additional (and usually unfunded, or at least underfunded) costs were going to hit down the road.
Its no wonder that so many large corps. ditched funded pensions and moved towards contributing to IRAs and other types of retirement vehicles.
Anyone well versed on financial interpretation realized years before the bailouts that GM was already broke and would require some sort of major modification to remain in existence....
And, that's probably the most significant difference between the big 3 and Wall Street. The big 3 knew for a decade or more what the future held for them, while investment bankers were gambling Las Vegas style, hoping to continue with a winning hand each time the cards were dealt.
Both were incredibly wreckless and stupid, IMO.
Consumer Reports has just wrapped up an evaluation of subcompact sedans, and the Kia Rio EX has rolled out ahead of the class. The four-door beat out its corporate clone, the Hyundai Accent and the Chevrolet Sonic to take the top spot. Evaluators pointed to the sharp handling and well-optioned interior in the Rio as reasons for the vehicle's win. The newly redesigned Nissan Versa and unloved Toyota Yaris filled out the top five sedans. And what of the baby hatchbacks? CR once again credited the Honda Fit as leader of the pack, followed closely by the Versa Hatchback and Rio Hatchback.
The organization found fault with the base Chevrolet Sonic's fuel economy, and found the turbocharged LTZ model to be too expensive. Evaluators also felt the Sonic Turbo "didn't live up to its sporty aspirations."
Regards,
OW
It did better in the C&D comparo, beating the Korean twins, but falling just shy of winning it all:
http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2012-chevrolet-sonic-ltz-turbo-compariso- n-test-car-and-driver-page-6
I wouldn't waste a minute of my time reading anything in CR. They are obviously anti domestic auto and avidly anti-GM. I recently compared the
JD Power dependabiliy survey of 2008 vehicles, in which GM brands collectively scored better than about half of the Asian brands.. notably Nissan, Hyundai, Mazda, Infiniti and others in addition to VW.
However when I compared that result to the CR ratings for particular 2008 vehicles, I found the largest discrepencies were found in GM vehicles. In fact the 2008 Equinox won the mid-SUV dependability award at JD but CR showed it worse than average in reliabiltiy.
I cancelled my subscription to CR a couple of years ago when I noticed that they had scored a 2008 Hyundai Elatra higher than my wife's 2008 Saturn Aura XR. My son's friend has a 2010 Elantra and the only superiority that I could admit to between that car and my wife's is the gas mileage. The Aura
was and is smooth, powerful, quiet, loaded with features, relatively inexpensive, and dead on reliable. It also easily gets over 30 highway mpg and on regular gas.
CR continues to send me their magazines along with subscription renewal requests, both of which go right into the trash.
In some ways better, and some ways worse. We certainly have better toys and creature comforts. But do we have more freedom and opportunity now? No. Like many people I sit in cube for 40 years, pushing inane paperwork, and live in a society that is no less corrupt than any other age. I'll take the 18th and 19th centuries for freedom, over comfort any day. I'd always like to try my hand at "prospecting" in the Old West.
I see GM is heading off some other problem witht the Volt. ... some Volt owners have complained that their 120-volt charger "overheats during use and have even documented online videos of melted 120-volt chargers."
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/03/gm-will-give-owners- -of-plug-in-volt-new-electric-cord/1
An excellent post by tlong.
Too many of Americans today are spoiled. Were not able to or tried to talk to parents, grandparents, great grandparents on what was NOT handed to them and they had to either do without or make extreme sacrifices to survive.
The ultimate spoiling of Americans is the politicians in DC promising to take care of them from birth to death, which is the health care law and other entitlements.
Yep, REAL Funny! GM-Daewoo. Not HyunKia.
Regards,
OW
In my hometown, the major industry that left was a railcar manufacturer. Railcars haven't gone away; they're made in Mexico for third-world wages now. Are Americans supposed to work for wages paid in Mexico and China and Korea? That is a huge difference between technology advances earlier in this country in the last century, and what has been happening the last thirty years or so.
Wasn't the bailout a forgiving of GM's incompetence and failures? Sheesh!
Cars are a commodity like PC's are now. They aren't going away but instead are changing into extremely efficient and safe transportation. Now the affordability factor is driving a new era of change into micro vehicles. A Harley costs more than an Aveo, for instance.
Just like the horse and buggy, cars are not the engine of the economy like they were in the USA decades back. Change is inevitable. Those '60's muscle cars are great but the cars today are better in every way.
Did GM learn it's lessons? Regardless, we can never go back and change the facts. We can only move forward to enjoy (or not) the changes for the best.
Like it or not, GM will never lead again as in the past. :surprise:
Regards,
OW
Again, that is a consequence of our political leaders first allowing the transfer of technology to those countries, and then our corporate leaders taking advantage of that by setting up operations there. But somewhere along the way the citizenry of this country allowed the wealthy and corporations to buy both parties, and allow this to happen.
So yes - in many cases where somewone in another country can make the same thing as people here can, then the people here must decide on - No job or Low wage job, or get paid Good wages with the realization that the firm will fail and the government will bail it out and subsidize it. Thus GM and the UAW went broke, and now are being subsidized.
It'll happen again at 1 of the next financial crises. And you'll see the government again come in and pull another "cash for clunkers", "R&D loans", "buy stock in GM", and things like that. Right now the New GM's main subsidy is - not paying income tax on their first $40B in profit. It allows them to sell each and every vehicle at a price lower than they otherwise would.
Exactly. History will repeat itself in the case of GM, C and F. C are the"experts" at it but GM had farther and longer to fall but eventually the miscalculations caught up at the end of the day. Even Ford had to sell it's soul to survive but rightly did it themselves. Ford is the US auto manufacturer that should be honored for that alone.
Actually, the auto companies of the next century will not be the top 10 that exist today. Just look at the Dow components in 1920:
March 1, 1920
American Can Baldwin Locomotive Texas Company
American Car and Foundry Central Leather U.S. Rubber
American Locomotive Corn Products U.S. Steel
American Smelting General Electric Company Utah Copper
American Sugar Goodrich Western Union
American Telephone and Telegraph Company Republic Iron and Steel Westinghouse Electric
Anaconda Copper Studebaker
Now, 2012:
Company Name Symbol
3M CO MMM
ALCOA INC AA
AMERICAN EXPRESS AXP
AT&T Inc. T
BANK OF AMERICA BAC
BOEING CO BA
CATERPILLAR INC CAT
CHEVRON CORP CVX
COCA-COLA CO KO
CISCO SYSTEMS CSCO
DISNEY (WALT) CO DIS
DU PONT (EI) DD
EXXON MOBIL CORP XOM
GENERAL ELECTRIC GE
HEWLETT-PACKARD HPQ
HOME DEPOT INC HD
IBM IBM
INTEL CORP INTC
JOHNSON&JOHNSON JNJ
JP MORGAN CHASE JPM
KRAFT FOODS INC KFT
MCDONALDS CORP MCD
MERCK & CO MRK
MICROSOFT CORP MSFT
PFIZER PFE
PROCTER & GAMBLE PG
TRAVELERS COS IN TRV
UNITED TECH CORP UTX
VERIZON COMMUNICATIONS VZ
WAL-MART STORES WMT
Studebaker was the only auto manufacturer in the Dow back in 1920 and today, no US auto manufacturer is represented. GM dropped of at bankruptcy time. Let's see if it ever makes it back in.
Regards,
OW
GM does do some things right, but so many on this board are like Fonzie on 'Happy Days' when he was unable to make his lips form the word 'wrong'.
I have gotten good service from my GM's, and I get good service from the experienced folks at my dealership. And as a side note, I am benefitting local folks who build Chevys down the road, and helping more Americans work, including suppliers. There's no negative in any of that, try as one might.
Don't forget that auto manufacturing is a very healthy industry in the U.S. today. We make more cars than we did in the 60's. They're just not all D3 cars. And the processes are much more efficient, requiring fewer workers. Not unlike many other industries have evolved.
The story is not one of a lost industry, but of a few companies (and a union) who failed to adapt to the times.
Agreed, GM does some things right and I for one am glad they do right by you. I accept I am wrong more times than I am right!
That's all interesting, but Chrysler didn't even exist in 1920. I would wager that even as of 1920 most Americans did not own an automobile.
True. No one owned a PC or a cell phone in 1980 let alone an i-anything. The point is, there will be phenomenal changes in the automotive industry in the next several decades.
I wager GM might not even be around 100 years from now but that will not mean we will not have outstanding transportation choices! :shades:
Regards,
OW
The negative is that GM was artificially kept around, and the GM system along with the UAW, are artificially kept around. GM should have been replaced - the corporation and its system. The workers and factories should have been sold off, broken up, or sold to the highest bidder, to produce vehicles under some other organization - say HN.
Then your neighbors could have gone top work at those local HN factories, and made a competitive wage for the products they produced. Just like local people arouind the country go to work for Caterpillar, GE, IBM, Exxon-Mobil, Citi, Johnson&Johnson, Dupont ...
If any of those companies make products that are surpassed by someone else, somewhere else, either in quality or cost, or those corporations have inefficient systems then I expect them to die off, and be replaced. As circlew just showed, it is NORMAL for large corp. and industries to come and go. Autos is not an exception. GM and C were saved for political reasons, and friends were taken care of.
I don't like the government playing favorites. What's hard to understand about that? Would you watch sports if there were different rules and enforcement for different players and teams? If some competitors cheat - why let them play with you?
And, a case can certainly be made to support that argument. However, it's a bit more difficult to claim discriminatory practices when those competitors are building similar products in the same country, as most Japanese and Korean manufacturers do today.
In fact, one doesn't have to look very long in order to find some "sweetheart deals" given exclusively to the big-3.
In the end, a company must change with the times to stay competitive. The big-3 had known company-strangling legacy costs pending for at least 2 decades and management pretty much decided to kick the issue down the road. It appears they lucked out, as the government came to the rescue.
Change is quite often painful, messy, and uneven in how if affects all the participants. We can remember the "good old days" of small, b&w round TV screens and bias-ply tires, but I doubt many would want to return to either, even if they had known in advance that radial tires and wide flat-screen TVs would cost jobs in America.
I wonder what real world manufacturing wages are in South Korea...it's not a third world slum by any means. Americans shouldn't and can't work for less developed wages, nor should those inputs be allowed to play on this market with a level playing field.
People shouldn't decide on sweatshop wages vs starvation, but decide how free trade can be fair trade.
Eh, it'll happen eventually. My '85 Silverado has been at death's door for awhile now, it seems...it just can't muster up the courage to ring the bell! Actually, I just drove it today, when I went to Home Depot to pick up some trees. It still drives pretty well and accelerates fine, but eventually, rust is going to claim it.
And I hate to say it, but I just don't see my 2000 Park Ave making it to really high miles or old age like some of my other cars. It only has about 81,000 miles on it now, but it's had things fail that never failed on my old 2000 Intrepid in the 150,000 miles I had it. Or, to use a GM reference, my Mom's old '86 Monte Carlo and Grandmom's '85 LeSabre actually aged better. But, who knows? It could prove me wrong! Maybe it just had "teething" problems, and will ultimately prove to last a good long time?
One thing that's a killer these days is labor rates and repair costs in general. The price of brand-new cars really hasn't gone up much, when you factor in how much is standard on them these days, and the performance and economy you get out of them. But, with older cars, as they break down, they just become more and more expensive to fix.
Haven't seen the term in a long time, but I'm reminded of "fairweather fan".
2012MY RESIDUAL OUTLOOK
OUTLOOK BY BRAND
The average 36-month residual value for the 2012 model year ranges from 42.2 percent for Suzuki to 52.5 percent for Mini. Foreign makes are expected to outperform domestic manufacturers substantially in retained value. Buick tops domestic manufacturers, with an average residual value across models of 45.5 percent, barely reaching the industry midpoint.
As you know, the incentives and fleet sales keep GM at some of the least residual values in the industry.
Regards,
OW
Would you root for a team that had a coach and/or players involved it sexual molestation changes brought against them, especially when there was overwhelming evidence to support those charges?
How about doping? Charges of theft?
Should the US Olympic team allow doping, just because opposing teams might have better prepared teams?
It's one thing to be wrongly accused of wrongdoing (Duke LaCross team comes to mind). It's quite another to be doing what the N.O. saints did in trying to injure opposing team players.
So, if I'm guessing that if you happened to be a Saints fan none of that would have any impact on your team support.
You know, any good parent would tell you of the Importance of disciplining a child when he was doing wrong.
And, there's the problem. The big-3 never had an adult forcefully tell them what they were doing was wrong. Then again, perhaps you don't think they were acting out of order.
Any accounting student worth his salt could see what was coming for the big-3 decades ago. It was no surprise...except to the management.
It's never acceptable to tell your child he's right when it's clear he isn't.
The same goes for ANY company.
That doesn't mean you don't care, or that you're pulling for them to lose.
Lets take the debt from $10T to $15T in 3.2 years - record time - and then just keep going. When asked what we are going to do to stop it or slow it down, we'll just explain that it's enough of a task to administer $3.7T per year and so there isn't enough time left to explain about it. Just like GM did, we have all been doing as a country since 2004. Spending what we don't have to satisfy the masses.
Hypocrisy is when we all do it as a country but don't want GM to do it.
The gov is the biggest business in the US
And I say this respectfully, busiris, but to compare GM with a child molester doesn't pass the smell test. I'd swear in shaking my head here, but the moderator would delete it.
I'd still root for my team, while getting rid of the problem. People here say no GM problems have been overcome, which is a farce.
I still think Freud would have a field day on this forum. Why absolute GM haters would post the same stuff here again...and again...and again....and again....is a complete mystery to me. I hate Toyotas, but I never posted there until a couple weeks ago...when somebody's 'fuzzy math' tried to say that whatever problem someone had mentioned in a Toyota was last built in the year 2006...'seven years ago', then tried to tell me when I pointed it out that you include 2006 when counting years. Sheesh! Romper-room stuff! This has nothing to do with model years coming out early, or anything...the discussion was 'when this problem was last built.'
I replied that I was born in 1958 but that doesn't mean I will be 55 in 2012.
Sheesh.
I've been one of the few supporters of the Volt here.
The only time I have commented on GM's past is to acknowledge what they did. It was wrong then, it's wrong now, and it will always be wrong. Same for Chrysler and Ford.
Those who wish to shift the blame to the unions, etc. are no different than the rapist claiming the victim was at fault because she "was asking for it".
Pure and simple, the big-3 management teams knew what was coming for years, and gambled they would be bailed out. In a nutshell, these "leaders" put their own personal fortunes ahead of the company, the employee and the investor.
And, their gamble paid off, due to the corrupt government we currently have that picks winners and losers by who has the most lucrative lobbyist organizations.
That's hardly anything to be rooting for or admiring.
I drive BMW's, but I gave BMW no "escape clause" when they ignored the high pressure fuel pump issues over the last several years, just as I chastised GM for the Sonic missing brake pads issue.
Wrong is Wrong.
Frankly, you usually come across as the mother on late nite news who claims her son is a "good boy", even though he just got convicted of murder during an armed robbery.
And, in fact, the bail outs were just short of armed robbery of the Taxpayer.
Do yourself a little service and do a little research into how long the calamity that befell the big 3 was foretold. This didn't just suddenly pop up a year or 2 ago.
Now, enough about what was because it can't be changed. What's done is done.
Personally, I'll applaud The domestics when they do good, and I'll chastise them when they screw up... Just as I will BMW or any other make I'm interested in.
I suggest you cease in attempting to live in the past as well. Everyone should be more concerned about making sure the important mistakes made earlier are understood and not allowed to occur again, rather than spending time about making excuses for failed prior performances.
Satisfy the masses? Isn't it more like satisfying the politicians' pocketbooks?
Go tell the other large companies that got no bailouts, such as Kodak, how everyone gets treated fairly....
Somehow, and Freud must know, all the GM failures seem to be the fault of the posters on this forum that point out the continued weakness and what led to the bankruptcy of the largest auto manufacturer in the USA with 50% market share at it's zenith.
Well, your reality is great for you. No question.
GM, however, has learned the hard way and still has some learning to do. I'll keep reminding of that weakness, if you don't mind.
Regards,
OW
That, I am completely certain of.
The masses are the 148 million housholds getting a gov check. The ss recipients and the medicare recipients are just getting back what they paid in. The rest just want to vote in a leader that will guard their free check. Then their are the 25 million getting a gov paycheck. they end up joining the masses.
I didn't know until yesterday that Buffet and Gates each own a railroad that will replace the KXL pipeline. Their RR's also just ordered 1400 new tanker cars from a co. owned by Buffet. Cozy little world generating $4 gas for us all.
I've bought a new vehicle in the last nine months. Have you? I don't buy new cars as status symbols, though, as some people do, even though we could afford to buy more expensive cars, or to just follow the crowd. We choose not to.
Anyone who denies that there were more choices in bodystyles, trim levels, colors, and interior choices then than now, is being disingenuous. That's fact, not living in the past.
'00 S-10 4 cyl great on dep....3% in 1 yr
'01 Silv ext cab 4X4 great too..You can't get one with triple the miles mine has on it for less than $10k
'10 Malibu great too...none
fuel costs in some of those years was $7k
'96 Riv was bad but I got it used and have put 96k on it. First 2 owners took 70%. I took 25%. Est $10,220 on fuel in Riv for the 96k miles compared to $6k dep.
'98 Mustang bought used has almost none in 60k miles, 8 yrs. Over $7k in fuel so far.
fuel dwarfs depreciation for many
Perhaps there's the difference. For my self, I don't HATE any car company - and certainly not GM. Looks like you're different.
I don't use that term lightly.
What I do HATE is sloth, arrogance, uselessness, and anybody (person, company, etc.) being rewarded for poor behavior. Anything that removes merit as a determinant of success - whether it be unions, generous parents, favoritism, etc., appalls me. So that's why I post here, because (as I've said before), I hope that GM can actually pull it together and be successful. That's hardly hate. And I suspect what is true for me is true for a lot of other posters, as well.
I'm always expecting an epiphany, but it never happens. Last one I had, the 'Traction Control' light stayed on and the front end had bad control arm bushing noises. This in a 15K mile Camry. Clearly the worst rental car I had last year.