I'm trying to remember the last time a completely-new Big Three plant was built in the 'States--probably Spring Hill, TN...unlike the German, Japanese, and Korean-owned plants here.
They won't. China, Korea, India, Mexicio, etc. are just plain cheaper to build cars in and there are no UAW contracts to deal with. And it's pretty well known that the union populus is dwindling and they are eagerly trying to recuit new plants to obtain new members.
Now, what has been happening and will most likely continue to happen is some of the older D-3 plants will be renovated and brought up to par for new products but I think domestic production will continue to fall in favor of lower wages.
When I worked in the industry, we did 30% of our business with Government Motors, and I would say about 5% of that 30% was in the US. :sick:
By comparison, Ford was about the same although a lesser percentage of our business.
Chrysler, Chinese, Indian, Korean, Japanese, Taiwan, etc. made up about 50% of our customers and we did a respectable amount of work (maybe about 10%) for them in SC, Tennessee, Alabama, Texas, etc.
A great dealer can make a mediocre car a pleasurable experience, and an inept dealer can leave a bad taste in the mouth of the owner of the best built car on the planet.
Even during what many of us describe as the worst of the failing years of GM, my GA hometown Pontiac/GMC/Cadillac dealer was superb. You didn't get the rock-bottom price from him on a new car, but he absolutely gave stellar service on the cars he sold. My folks bought cars for their own use exclusively from him from 1960 until they died.
Ironically, when 2 of the three lines he sold got axed, the Chevy dealer got the Cadillac franchise, and this dealer retired. Unfortunately, the Chevy dealer has nowhere the same reputation as the old Pontiac guy.
Maintenance is certainly a huge x factor. Your right about maintenance of import owners. My sister used to date a service writer at Lexus and also a Cadillac. He said Lexus owners were far more likely overall to keep up with all recommended maintenance at the dealer anyway.
That's another reason I've been disappointed in some of my recent domestics. I always have all required maintenance done and I still have issues. I had the gear lube replaced every 20k, and I still lost a seal in the rear diff. Granted the repair wasn't a big deal.
I think we'll all agree on the dealer comments. I have total trust in my dealer's Service Manager. I know a couple of the techs by first-name and they, me. I was worried when my local Chevy dealer went away in '09, but most of the Service Department went to the dealer six or seven miles away. I hate driving farther, but why trust something as expensive as a car to someone you don't know anything about? The dealer can make all the difference.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
In the town I grew up in, the Chevy-Cadillac dealer had been owned by the same family for 55 years. The owner taught Sunday School at the Presbyterian Church and was involved in many civic things, and was looked at admirably by virtually everybody in town. They had a salesman that had worked there for forty years! Most of their other employees started after WWII and stayed there their whole careers. These aren't business associates; you knew they'd be there next month, next year, whatever. Wonderful. That dealer changed hands in the '90's a couple times after the sons of the original owner sold, and of course GM subsequently closed the place. I still daydream about how much fun 'new car introduction night' was there. Sigh.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I keep my cars a very long time. The record holder is my 1989 Cadillac Brougham at 23+ years. My wife has had her 2005 Buick LaCrosse for seven years as of March 12th. My 2007 Cadillac DTS Performance is going on five. If I get rid of a car, it isn't that it's falling apart, I just wanna try something different or a manufacturer has put out something so awesome, I've got to have it and I use the old car as part of the down payment.
Oh, I remember as a kid going to the yearly "grand unveiling" of the new Pontiacs and Cadillacs, too.
Back then, deals were consummated with a smile and a handshake.
I do think that, in one way, the Internet has had a great deal of responsibility in destroying that aspect of new car sales because, back then, buying a car was usually considered a pleasurable experience, but now it's more of a "nuts and bolts" request of a dozen car quotes, and then taking the deal the dealer who saves you $50 offers.
No, or definitely not nearly as much, dealer loyalty nowadays. Then again, so many dealerships seem to change hands every 3-4 years, so maybe it would still have evolved that way without the Internet.
As an example, the local Chevy dealer is consumed with everything NASCAR. Nothing wrong with NASCAR, but I go to a Chevy dealer to buy a street car, not a track car. Coupled with that, the dealership seems to employ the rudest, most backwards folks in any position of customer interaction.
Even when there is no doubt of a warranty issue in the owner's favor, they will do all things possible to avoid the repair. I know personally, as I had a 2005 Aveo that I bought from them, and around 20k miles the moonroof started making sounds as loud as an M-80 going off when you closed it. I ended up taking it to another dealer several miles away who fixed it with no contest, nor any problem.
I compare that to the local Nissan dealer that recently replaced the transmission in my daughter's Versa. Took it in, explained the problem, left it with them and got a call 2 hours later telling me a replacement was on order and would be ready in about a week. Six days later, I got the call the car was ready.
I don't make these comments to claim foreign brand dealers are somehow superior, because frankly, they aren't. I state this only to show that, for those buyers that aren't attempting to squeeze every last penny out of a dealer on a sale, the dealer can make all the difference in an owner's experience.
And kernick, why don't you check out how much money governments threw at German, Korean, and Japanese manufacturers to build their plants in the deep south?
That's wrong to do too. All these tax incentives, subsidies, and bailouts just lead to more unfairness, as you're pointing out. This mix of business-political prostitution is unethical and unfair to many. So while you say that's the way the game is, let's game-play everywhere, I'm saying throw the system out. This cozy relationship between business and politicians, is leading this country to its collapse.
The GM bailout as with many of the other bailouts is just a $$ and power game being played out in DC and state governments. Lobbyists, politicains, unions, and large corporations all trading favors, and becoming more powerful and wealthy. Maybe in 5. or 10, or 20 years we're going to be like Spain is today - deep in debt, 20% unemployment (meaning a lot of people who can protest each day), and such. You don't think it can happen here? Go take a look at how the debt is growing, and how little this "recovery" has recovered. This IS the good time; it's not going to be so pretty when the next economic crisis occurs in the next few years. Could be this year, when Israel attacks Iran, and oil traffic is interrupted.
No, no that's not real $; because we'll have to have the Fed doing another QE program, and devalue our $ some more. And then when our $ is worth less, and buys less oil, the people here who support this system can all run over to the "High Gas Price" forum and scratch their heads as to why gas costs so much.
So now we have a government that overspends, is afraid to directly increase taxes or cut spending to everyone with their hand out, and therefore decides on back-door policies like the Fed's devaluing of the $ to mimic some sort of recovery.
Our recovery right now is based on people feeling better about a stock market bubble that is forming, the creation of a couple hundred thousand low wage jobs each month, and massive borrowing on the future (creating debt). There is no fundamental recovery, and you have the entire Baby Boom generation moving into retirement and going to start spending unprecedented amounts on health care. Anyone here want to guess how long GM is going to survive (without aid) if we hit a recession later this year or in 2013?
Maybe with a few more 1 million German autos recalled, or 700K Japanese autos recalled, more folks will come back looking for the value of the brands that are planned, and engineered and built for our market, right here....the ones that employ more of their neighbors (of course I realize that last part depends on where one lives).
I'll beat the 'but....but...but...' guys to the punch here. I've read that the Sonic and Cruze and new Malibu were built there first, but I have to believe that before they are assembled here, additional engineering and product planning is done in Detroit. Are the Cruze and Malibu, Daewoos? Just askin'...I had not heard that. I wonder if they were actually engineered here but built there before being introduced to this market.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
I asked this a week or so ago, but did not receive an answer here. Where is the Kia Rio built?
I'll admit I thumbed through a CR on the newsstand this morning, but could not see where they addressed that point at all (unless it was in a sidebar or chart and I missed it). To me, that's something more people are wanting to know.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Third generation (UB) Also called Kia All New Pride Kia All New Rio (Indonesia) Production 2011-present Model years 2012- Assembly South Korea: Sohari Plant, Gwangmyeong China: Yangcheng Plant, Jiangsu Ecuador: Quito (AYMESA) Indonesia: Jakarta Philippines: Bicutan, Parañaque City Russia: (St Petersburg Hyundai RUS)
Because in the real world, whether it's in school, work, or wherever, ya gotta draw a line somewhere. Not every kid in college gets financial aid, for example, as I've recently found out!
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Because in the real world, whether it's in school, work, or wherever, ya gotta draw a line somewhere.
Really? Think about it? I guess you need to draw the line somewhere if you're handing our $$ to select corporations and banks. But if you DON'T have that policy, there is NO line to be drawn! Everyone is treated fairly and equally.
Earn, instead of getting hand-outs. The government should be an unbiased referee, not Daddy to those who lobby and donate, buying favor.
I would ask you to just step back a bit, take a breath, and genuinely ask the question, "Should everyone who asks for a handout get one?". In any endeavor, does that happen?
Whether some like it or not, the failure of GM would've knocked this country for an economic loop unlike it had ever seen. It's fallacy that every car that might have been sold by GM, would've just been sold by somebody else during the same quarter or every GM employee would have just gone to work for another automaker.
Certainly, that battery company's failure would not have had the same effect on the whole U.S. economy that the collapse of GM would have. Surely you are able to realize that.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
This is that whole "Too Big to fail" premise that ticks me off to no end...
It is not the fault of the taxpayers, the government or the imports that caused GM's 30 year downward spiral, why should we be the ones to pick up the pieces?
Again, why did they choose to play GM as some sort of victim when these clowns had been running their business so poorly? It was GM's own doing that had them lumbering along with too many brands, too many dealers and too many models (clones).
Did the we the taxpayer choose to start up a brand selling 8mpg military vehicles for public consumption when the signs were clear as day that gas prices were going to go up?
Did we the taxpayer choose to buy a failing entity (Saab) back in the 90's (which was clearly not a model for longevity)
Did we start Saturn, which for 15 years survived under one car?
Did we invest in Fiat which in the ended up costing $2 billion just to cut loose when things went sour?
Do we the taxpayer take blame for all the recalls, warranties and campaigns that GM had for millions of vehicles over these years which led to decreased market share, dwindling profits and eventual bankruptcy?
I have nothing to add that hasn't been discussed ad nauseum here before about the bailout, so I won't. I would say in response that they have recalls under control now, unlike the foreign competition.
On a separate note, someone recently posted in another car forum I frequent, that their '06 Ford F-150, bought 5 years and 62 days ago and with 34,000 miles, has a rustout in the bed and Ford won't cover it since it's beyond 5 years. If the guy had a Chevy or GMC, he'd be covered.
So much for the importance of warranty.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Because no one in the government ever made it crystal clear to the big-3 they were on their own (and also put management on notice that they might indeed be held criminally liable for gross mismanagement if failure occurred), the big-3 were pretty much in a "no lose" situation, especially after seeing the lack of action after the big financial institutions were coddled and bailed out.
They were gambling, but had 4 aces up their sleeve.
By the time the big-3 crashed, it's my opinion that the economy was in such sour shape that nothing less than the bailout would have done enough to avoid a total train wreck in the economy. Of course, if the housing bubble and subsequent crash there hadn't happened, it may have been a much different environment, and letting the big-3 go bankrupt on their own might have been more palatable.
The issue I have now is that we don't seem to have learned anything from this debacle. The big financial institutions that were too big to fail then are still too big to fail. Same goes for the big-3.
That's a real problem!
And it begs the question... "if I pay the same taxes as my neighbor, why do I get treated differently financially?"
I'm no alarmist, nor can I predict where we are going to end up, but I can safely say that there is no such thing as a bottomless pit (you can't continuously spend more than what you take in), and a "too big to fail" mentality will indeed fail.
Interest rates are being kept artificially low to induce (read: force) those attempting to keep up with inflation to gamble in the stock market. The government says we should increase our savings rate % but at the same time discourages safe savings by forcing $$$$ to the stock market, as well as other higher-risk investments.
That's a long-term recipe for disaster if I ever saw one.
I am all but convinced the US government is set on a policy of paying off the national debt with inflation.
When the average person is confronted with the choice of spending his $$$ now, or save them for later, knowing the actual buying power of those $$$ will be less in the future (and under current policies, that's exactly what is happening now), he will opt to spend them now.
But he won't stop there. He is incented to borrow as many $$$ as he can get, because the inflationary rate exceeds the interest rate he is paying on those same borrowed $$$.
That was the driving force behind the housing crash.
We can let the "market" decide as soon as we either ban entities from other lands who have been bailed out, or we penalize them to level the playing field. As our "capitalist" leadership would never do that, we get to open the welfare trough too.
Rewarding for failure - just like we do with the FIRE industries and so much public sector (foreign aid included) in general.
Rewarding for failure - just like we do with the FIRE industries and so much public sector (foreign aid included) in general.
I'm not familiar, but what sort of rewards do they recieve?
My point about the reward: If I run my business poorly, producing a product that is unreliable, poor quality, poor performing or just plain something that nobody wants, do I deserve 60 billion dollars to keep the doors open?
And if I do recieve it, isn't a bit of a slap in the face to take that money and go off buying stock in Peugeot? :sick:
I just don't get the favoritism in the whole thing. Sorry, i'm not buying it that the fate of the US economy revolves around Detroilet... The same clowns who's bulk of the business isn't even in this flippin Country...
This is more of a question than a comment.... Do all recalls have the same impact?
Obviously, a recall to inspect/repair a back seat middle seat belt latching mechanism isn't the same as a recall to prevent the high probability of a gas tank explosion, but do all recalls have the same effect?
No doubt there are categories of recalls, but I'll assume there are 2 main types: major and minor, where major recalls are life threatening and have had actual injury incident reports, and minor recalls are those that are more theoretical, with no reported injuries.
Example: the recent mega-recall by BMW for their defective battery connector cover (whatever that is)...
Compare that to a hypothetical recall of equal magnitude in numbers on a Ford Taurus or Chevrolet Malibu.
Again, it seems that the BMW recall would definitely impact those considering a high-line luxury purchase, and manufacturers like MB, Audi, and perhaps Japanese brands such as Lexus and Infinity might get a bump in sales, but would it have any effect on those not in the market for such a vehicle? Would Chevrolet benefit? How about Cadillac?
Conversely, going back to the second example... If someone was considering a Chevy Sonic or Ford Escort, do you think a large recall on a "sibling" model would cause enough concern to have an impact on sales?
I guess what I'm wondering boils down to whether or not a large recall has a different effect on total brand sales of high production vehicles as compared to those of a manufacturer of less mass-produced vehicles?
If Hummer was still in production, would a Chevy recall affect Hummer sales? Would a Hummer recall affect Chevy sales? Cadillac sales?
I wonder. I suspect the frequency of recalls by manufacturer has more to do with impacting sales than the actual seriousness of a recall, unless the recall is of a "major" type as I classified above.
I'm pretty sure you are familiar with the financial sector bailouts, which were huge compared what was given to the big 1.5 - and then the defacto welfare we give other better connected industries, not to mention what we give directly or indirectly to other nations (some of which we then get to compete with). I see your point, and I agree that bad decisions don't merit gifts - but if others do give such rewards and use them to compete, then ours shouldn't be handicapped for it.
Whether some like it or not, the failure of GM would've knocked this country for an economic loop unlike it had ever seen.
Baloney #1! Take a look at what happened with the assets of Lehman Bros. and the other large banks in that year. Transfers of assets and firms dissolved in short-order. GM could have been dissolved as a corporation, and the assets sold to Ford or the government could have run GM's assets were auctioned off. The workers could have shown up Mon. morning under new owners - The Auto Czar.
Baloney #2! About half of GM's production and sales is not in the U.S. - so not as big a hurt as it's made out to be.
Overall - if you were right, you're making the case that GM needs to be broken up into their smaller, separate divisions/brands. :P And then they can fail just like other companies and corporations.
That's pretty much been my experience. The paint is bubbling and has flaked off in a few spots on the tailgate on my expedition. The bubbling started over a year ago. Ford won't cover it because it wasn't rusted through.
It's not the end of the world as I've gotten a few quotes to have it repainted for around $500. Chump change compared to what most of my repairs seem to cost:(
Plus the trim along the drivers side door the runs along the window has all faded and cracked and pretty much looks like hell. Unfortunately, the trim pieces are expensive, I'm not going to spend $500 to replace it. I've just learned to accept it.
Considering it's primarily garage kept, I should have these issues, but I do. So much for quality being job one;)
Unfortunately my ownership experience with a Suburban was far more expensive and irritating.
By the time the big-3 crashed, it's my opinion that the economy was in such sour shape that nothing less than the bailout would have done enough to avoid a total train wreck in the economy.
As I just commented, the feds could have run Ex-GM until it could be orderly broken up and liquidated. I certainly would have been interested in acquiring the Corvette factory and brandname.
Interest rates are being kept artificially low to induce (read: force) those attempting to keep up with inflation to gamble in the stock market. The government says we should increase our savings rate % but at the same time discourages safe savings by forcing $$$$ to the stock market, as well as other higher-risk investments.
Yep, pretty much the case. The stock market seems to be about the only thing thriving, and that's mainly why. It's about the only game in town. But the game is rigged with Insiders, super-fast computer trading, and fund managers making lots of $ (win or lose the bet) being extremely risky. The Federal Reserve is one of the worst offenders of robbing the normal person, to the gain of the wealthy.
I'm really amazed that people in this country aren't much angrier and taking much more action against this Machine. Buying local to me is the farmers' market, not the product of the GM dealer, or Bank of America branch.
And if I do recieve it, isn't a bit of a slap in the face to take that money and go off buying stock in Peugeot?
Yeah, I don't see Peugeot being the next Apple Corp. I could understand if GM took $2B and invested in Apple, to try and make 25%! Or they could just send out all their employees to buy every compbination in tonight's Mass Million lottery. WEither would have been a much better gamble!
I'm really amazed that people in this country aren't much angrier and taking much more action against this Machine. Buying local to me is the farmers' market, not the product of the GM dealer, or Bank of America branch.
That's why I commented a few dozen or so posts back how its funny the way some folks define "buying local" to fit their current definition requirement.
My definition isn't quite as narrow as Kernick's, though.
I do prefer locally produced farm products, but I also try to buy from the businesses that support my local economy... Especially the ones that pay a good wage and offer benefits to large numbers of local workers.
Even if they don't actually make the product I'm buying locally, it still fits my definition.
You say that you're amazed more people aren't angry against the machine...
Major disclaimer: the following is not a political statement, but a simple analysis of the facts....
I'd like to say I agree, but when I see the number of folks that still don't believe Obama is indeed a US citizen or that he's some sort of closeted Muslim (yet, blistering the guy because he attended a Christian church headed by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, which is a major taboo for any dedicated Muslim), it really makes me wonder about the intelligence of the "masses". And, you have major players (I use that term very loosely) such as Donald Trump and sitting members of Congress extolling such nonsense.
I have some Major issues with the current administration, but I'm not gonna waste my time on such nit-picking crap as that.
When Bob Inglis was running for re-election to Congress here in 2010, at a local "town hall" meeting during his campaign, some bozo stood upand shouted "keep your government hands off of my Medicare". It made national news.
With a population full of such uninformed citizenry, why should anyone expect people to get upset at what's going on, when they don't even have a clue as to what's going on?
Buying local sounds good in some ways but my whole life has been spent making products that are as far from local as possible. The stuff I work on is made for the largest entities in the world to purchase and use. If my design works out good, my neighbor will get a good paying job manufacturing it and my other neighbor will sell us both cars, food, gas, and tvs.
I totally agree on the stock market. I have a buy and hold equity income fund that is down 16% since 2006. They only charged me 2.5% a year to hold my money. Why do that when I can put it in a mm and pay only a $10 per year fee for them to hold my money.
I hear that stock market trading volume is down and money is starting to pour in since interest rates are announced to stay low for 2 more years. There is no way to win anymore. Hoping for a better day 2-3 years from now is all that is left. The market may rise 5% before the election but Iran is on the way to nukes and that will bring a disaster that can happen at any moment.
What about fed debt? We borrow 3 times the value of all the oil we import on a daily basis. That's like going to the bank each day and borrowing $100, then remembering that the tank is empty and borrowing another $33 for gas each day also. Which is the bigger problem, the gas debt or the $133 total borrowed?
Also, just asking...did you price the A3 with and without trade? You were 'trading up' and I'm sure that didn't hurt your trade-in value any.
I had to sell the Honda Accord privately to get a good value for it. I suppose I could have haggled the dealers more, but it was clear we weren't in the same ballpark. I actually lowered my price several times before it sold... and it sold immediately after I lowered it to 13,250. I think it had more to do with finding a buyer with a good chunk of money to spend that wanted a coupe (rare these days) than it did Honda's resale value not living up to its reputation. So it did take me a long time to sell it, but I did get a good price, and the guy was happy to pay it, didn't negotiate me down at all; he knew it was a steal of a deal.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
For some reason the Hotoy fans didn't turn on the makes the way that US manufacturer customers did. Is it that the US makers were the Old House of their parents?
Well, for one, the bum Honda Transmission in my Accord was paid for by Honda at 42,000 miles and fixed in 2 days. Extended warranty another 36K miles beyond the current mileage when fixed! For two, that problem never stranded me nor required a tow truck. For three, that problem pales in comparison to the numbers and frequency of problems the Neon had.
And lastly, and most importantly, Dodge never offerred to pay up for my BUM tranny in the Neon either! Only the Neon doesn't have a 240 Horsepower excuse as to why it failed early!
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Oh, so you sold it outright, instead of trading it in at the dealer. That even makes me feel better about what my dealer gave me for my old Uplander towards a $19K car.
2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
Over the decades the newly planted imports were much more successful at getting import owners to return to the dealer for the mandated checkups and to only use import supplied products. I recall reading in an import brand thread last week someone asking if they could use another brand of antifreeze in their import brando--they were afraid they might hurt it with a nonmanufacturer supplied product. Same for engine and transmission oils.
I think that is honestly because when you buy a quality product (like an import car) you naturally want to take care of your quality automobile. If you buy crap, you might as well treat it like crap!
I'll give two examples of this human behavior.
1) A while back I got my front bumper re-painted/sprayed because after 65K miles and many back country canyon carving outings, it had too many rock chips to count. After a couple more thousand miles after their crappy/subpar paint job, it looked worse than it did afer 65K miles. They pointed out that there were a bunch of rock chips, and I pointed out that their paint held up after 2,000 miles like my original paint did in 65K miles, so something was amiss! Also, it was flaking and peeling off in other spots, but that's another issue! So since my bumper already looked like crap after a few months, I naturally didn't bother to be careful with it, I drove over dips in the road carelessly scraping the bottom of my front bumper, and I bumped into curbs or parking concrete stops (my car is very low), because, well, it already looked like crap; so why be careful? Whereas if it was in perfect pristine condition, I'd probably be more likely to avoid bottoming out and scraping and scuffing my front end. So I explained to the shop that yes, some of the damage is from my driving style, but the paint already was crappy, so they need to repaint it under their "warranty." Also, I had notified them months earlier it was starting to flake and peel, and they were the one's who were stalling and making me drive it "ugly."
2) I had an independent local shop give me a quote to change my DSG transmissions fluid and timing belt service. The quote was really cheap to put in a generically named Multi-ATF (Which stands for automatic transmission fluid) in my DSG transmission. Upon further research, I figured out that not only should the DSG transmission only be serviced by Audi/Germany fluid, but it was actually called an OIL, DSG Oil; not fluid. Honda and Audi buyer's guides that come with the new cars in the paperwork both point out that you should ONLY use high quality genuine OEM replacement parts. Especially if your in an accident and getting repairs, they state you should FORCE your insurance company to only use only OEM parts. Honda was the first manufacturer I ever saw this from, and they were very vocal about it. You could say they just want the business, but they make it clear the reason is quality control and longevity/durability.
With a Big 3 car.... you are probably far better off taking the chinese or mexican part as it'll probably last longer than the original OEM Mopar/American part. There was no such flyer or brochure with my Neon about insisting on OEM part replacement with your insurer.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
No... it was simply starting to behave strangely, shifting down and up randomly, abruptly, and for no reason..... occasionally...not frequently... Even the Neon made it to the shop without a tow truck for that problem (the auto tranny); though it did need 4 hooks for other issues.
The Neon was different, it was mainly starting to slip into 1st and 2nd gear with slow/stopped starts that sometimes made it jump into gear harshly.
I was told you never really know when it'll completely "go out" so it's best to fix it now (of course the shop would say something like that?) Over time it did seem it was only getting worse and more frequent, not better. I think in general that's the way problems get, worse, never better over time.
'18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
Comments
They won't. China, Korea, India, Mexicio, etc. are just plain cheaper to build cars in and there are no UAW contracts to deal with. And it's pretty well known that the union populus is dwindling and they are eagerly trying to recuit new plants to obtain new members.
Now, what has been happening and will most likely continue to happen is some of the older D-3 plants will be renovated and brought up to par for new products but I think domestic production will continue to fall in favor of lower wages.
When I worked in the industry, we did 30% of our business with Government Motors, and I would say about 5% of that 30% was in the US. :sick:
By comparison, Ford was about the same although a lesser percentage of our business.
Chrysler, Chinese, Indian, Korean, Japanese, Taiwan, etc. made up about 50% of our customers and we did a respectable amount of work (maybe about 10%) for them in SC, Tennessee, Alabama, Texas, etc.
A great dealer can make a mediocre car a pleasurable experience, and an inept dealer can leave a bad taste in the mouth of the owner of the best built car on the planet.
Even during what many of us describe as the worst of the failing years of GM, my GA hometown Pontiac/GMC/Cadillac dealer was superb. You didn't get the rock-bottom price from him on a new car, but he absolutely gave stellar service on the cars he sold. My folks bought cars for their own use exclusively from him from 1960 until they died.
Ironically, when 2 of the three lines he sold got axed, the Chevy dealer got the Cadillac franchise, and this dealer retired. Unfortunately, the Chevy dealer has nowhere the same reputation as the old Pontiac guy.
Examples:
http://www.siteselection.com/ssinsider/incentive/ti0404.htm
http://anderson.senatedems.com/news/article/anderson-applauds-incentives-to-grow- -auto-industry-in-redford-township
That's another reason I've been disappointed in some of my recent domestics. I always have all required maintenance done and I still have issues. I had the gear lube replaced every 20k, and I still lost a seal in the rear diff. Granted the repair wasn't a big deal.
Back then, deals were consummated with a smile and a handshake.
I do think that, in one way, the Internet has had a great deal of responsibility in destroying that aspect of new car sales because, back then, buying a car was usually considered a pleasurable experience, but now it's more of a "nuts and bolts" request of a dozen car quotes, and then taking the deal the dealer who saves you $50 offers.
No, or definitely not nearly as much, dealer loyalty nowadays. Then again, so many dealerships seem to change hands every 3-4 years, so maybe it would still have evolved that way without the Internet.
As an example, the local Chevy dealer is consumed with everything NASCAR. Nothing wrong with NASCAR, but I go to a Chevy dealer to buy a street car, not a track car. Coupled with that, the dealership seems to employ the rudest, most backwards folks in any position of customer interaction.
Even when there is no doubt of a warranty issue in the owner's favor, they will do all things possible to avoid the repair. I know personally, as I had a 2005 Aveo that I bought from them, and around 20k miles the moonroof started making sounds as loud as an M-80 going off when you closed it. I ended up taking it to another dealer several miles away who fixed it with no contest, nor any problem.
I compare that to the local Nissan dealer that recently replaced the transmission in my daughter's Versa. Took it in, explained the problem, left it with them and got a call 2 hours later telling me a replacement was on order and would be ready in about a week. Six days later, I got the call the car was ready.
I don't make these comments to claim foreign brand dealers are somehow superior, because frankly, they aren't. I state this only to show that, for those buyers that aren't attempting to squeeze every last penny out of a dealer on a sale, the dealer can make all the difference in an owner's experience.
Agreed the '08 Malibu is high quality but high fleet sales as well as high incentives affect the resale. It's reality.
Regards,
OW
All I can agree on is that GM recalls of late are very literally only a fraction of foreign-maker recalls of late.
It's on the list, just below Kodak...
That's wrong to do too. All these tax incentives, subsidies, and bailouts just lead to more unfairness, as you're pointing out. This mix of business-political prostitution is unethical and unfair to many. So while you say that's the way the game is, let's game-play everywhere, I'm saying throw the system out. This cozy relationship between business and politicians, is leading this country to its collapse.
The GM bailout as with many of the other bailouts is just a $$ and power game being played out in DC and state governments. Lobbyists, politicains, unions, and large corporations all trading favors, and becoming more powerful and wealthy. Maybe in 5. or 10, or 20 years we're going to be like Spain is today - deep in debt, 20% unemployment (meaning a lot of people who can protest each day), and such. You don't think it can happen here? Go take a look at how the debt is growing, and how little this "recovery" has recovered. This IS the good time; it's not going to be so pretty when the next economic crisis occurs in the next few years. Could be this year, when Israel attacks Iran, and oil traffic is interrupted.
Whatsa matter?
$15 trillion not enought debt?
OK... I'm sorry, but I just couldn't resist...
OK... I'm sorry, but I just couldn't resist...
Pretty soon we'll be talking about real money.... :surprise:
So now we have a government that overspends, is afraid to directly increase taxes or cut spending to everyone with their hand out, and therefore decides on back-door policies like the Fed's devaluing of the $ to mimic some sort of recovery.
Our recovery right now is based on people feeling better about a stock market bubble that is forming, the creation of a couple hundred thousand low wage jobs each month, and massive borrowing on the future (creating debt). There is no fundamental recovery, and you have the entire Baby Boom generation moving into retirement and going to start spending unprecedented amounts on health care. Anyone here want to guess how long GM is going to survive (without aid) if we hit a recession later this year or in 2013?
That's easy. 6 months after they beg for aid!
Regards,
OW
I'll beat the 'but....but...but...' guys to the punch here. I've read that the Sonic and Cruze and new Malibu were built there first, but I have to believe that before they are assembled here, additional engineering and product planning is done in Detroit. Are the Cruze and Malibu, Daewoos? Just askin'...I had not heard that. I wonder if they were actually engineered here but built there before being introduced to this market.
I'll admit I thumbed through a CR on the newsstand this morning, but could not see where they addressed that point at all (unless it was in a sidebar or chart and I missed it). To me, that's something more people are wanting to know.
Third generation (UB)
Also called Kia All New Pride
Kia All New Rio (Indonesia)
Production 2011-present
Model years 2012-
Assembly
South Korea: Sohari Plant, Gwangmyeong
China: Yangcheng Plant, Jiangsu
Ecuador: Quito (AYMESA)
Indonesia: Jakarta
Philippines: Bicutan, Parañaque City Russia: (St Petersburg Hyundai RUS)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Wonder how many employees and suppliers in the U.S. are depending upon A123 systems, compared to GM?
And GM had/has plenty of operations all over the globe, including a very successful China unit, so why did they not pull resources from there instead?
Why are they being allowed to invest 2 billion dollars in Peugeot?
Really? Think about it? I guess you need to draw the line somewhere if you're handing our $$ to select corporations and banks. But if you DON'T have that policy, there is NO line to be drawn! Everyone is treated fairly and equally.
Earn, instead of getting hand-outs. The government should be an unbiased referee, not Daddy to those who lobby and donate, buying favor.
Whether some like it or not, the failure of GM would've knocked this country for an economic loop unlike it had ever seen. It's fallacy that every car that might have been sold by GM, would've just been sold by somebody else during the same quarter or every GM employee would have just gone to work for another automaker.
Certainly, that battery company's failure would not have had the same effect on the whole U.S. economy that the collapse of GM would have. Surely you are able to realize that.
It is not the fault of the taxpayers, the government or the imports that caused GM's 30 year downward spiral, why should we be the ones to pick up the pieces?
Again, why did they choose to play GM as some sort of victim when these clowns had been running their business so poorly? It was GM's own doing that had them lumbering along with too many brands, too many dealers and too many models (clones).
Did the we the taxpayer choose to start up a brand selling 8mpg military vehicles for public consumption when the signs were clear as day that gas prices were going to go up?
Did we the taxpayer choose to buy a failing entity (Saab) back in the 90's (which was clearly not a model for longevity)
Did we start Saturn, which for 15 years survived under one car?
Did we invest in Fiat which in the ended up costing $2 billion just to cut loose when things went sour?
Do we the taxpayer take blame for all the recalls, warranties and campaigns that GM had for millions of vehicles over these years which led to decreased market share, dwindling profits and eventual bankruptcy?
This is just the tip of the iceburg... :sick:
Again, why? Let free market decide their fate.
Not reward them for failure. :sick:
On a separate note, someone recently posted in another car forum I frequent, that their '06 Ford F-150, bought 5 years and 62 days ago and with 34,000 miles, has a rustout in the bed and Ford won't cover it since it's beyond 5 years. If the guy had a Chevy or GMC, he'd be covered.
So much for the importance of warranty.
Because no one in the government ever made it crystal clear to the big-3 they were on their own (and also put management on notice that they might indeed be held criminally liable for gross mismanagement if failure occurred), the big-3 were pretty much in a "no lose" situation, especially after seeing the lack of action after the big financial institutions were coddled and bailed out.
They were gambling, but had 4 aces up their sleeve.
By the time the big-3 crashed, it's my opinion that the economy was in such sour shape that nothing less than the bailout would have done enough to avoid a total train wreck in the economy. Of course, if the housing bubble and subsequent crash there hadn't happened, it may have been a much different environment, and letting the big-3 go bankrupt on their own might have been more palatable.
The issue I have now is that we don't seem to have learned anything from this debacle. The big financial institutions that were too big to fail then are still too big to fail. Same goes for the big-3.
That's a real problem!
And it begs the question... "if I pay the same taxes as my neighbor, why do I get treated differently financially?"
I'm no alarmist, nor can I predict where we are going to end up, but I can safely say that there is no such thing as a bottomless pit (you can't continuously spend more than what you take in), and a "too big to fail" mentality will indeed fail.
Interest rates are being kept artificially low to induce (read: force) those attempting to keep up with inflation to gamble in the stock market. The government says we should increase our savings rate % but at the same time discourages safe savings by forcing $$$$ to the stock market, as well as other higher-risk investments.
That's a long-term recipe for disaster if I ever saw one.
I am all but convinced the US government is set on a policy of paying off the national debt with inflation.
When the average person is confronted with the choice of spending his $$$ now, or save them for later, knowing the actual buying power of those $$$ will be less in the future (and under current policies, that's exactly what is happening now), he will opt to spend them now.
But he won't stop there. He is incented to borrow as many $$$ as he can get, because the inflationary rate exceeds the interest rate he is paying on those same borrowed $$$.
That was the driving force behind the housing crash.
You are quite correct. Looks like GM is not leading in recalls anymore!
Honda is recalling more than 550,000 CR-V compact crossovers and Pilot midsize SUVs because you could lose the low-beam headlights.
The company says it's a wiring problem that could cause the low beams to become inoperative and leave you in the dark.
The recalls vehicles are:
2002 through 2004 model CR-Vs
2003 model Pilots
Regards,
OW
Rewarding for failure - just like we do with the FIRE industries and so much public sector (foreign aid included) in general.
I'm not familiar, but what sort of rewards do they recieve?
My point about the reward: If I run my business poorly, producing a product that is unreliable, poor quality, poor performing or just plain something that nobody wants, do I deserve 60 billion dollars to keep the doors open?
And if I do recieve it, isn't a bit of a slap in the face to take that money and go off buying stock in Peugeot? :sick:
I just don't get the favoritism in the whole thing. Sorry, i'm not buying it that the fate of the US economy revolves around Detroilet... The same clowns who's bulk of the business isn't even in this flippin Country...
This is more of a question than a comment.... Do all recalls have the same impact?
Obviously, a recall to inspect/repair a back seat middle seat belt latching mechanism isn't the same as a recall to prevent the high probability of a gas tank explosion, but do all recalls have the same effect?
No doubt there are categories of recalls, but I'll assume there are 2 main types: major and minor, where major recalls are life threatening and have had actual injury incident reports, and minor recalls are those that are more theoretical, with no reported injuries.
Example: the recent mega-recall by BMW for their defective battery connector cover (whatever that is)...
Compare that to a hypothetical recall of equal magnitude in numbers on a Ford Taurus or Chevrolet Malibu.
Again, it seems that the BMW recall would definitely impact those considering a high-line luxury purchase, and manufacturers like MB, Audi, and perhaps Japanese brands such as Lexus and Infinity might get a bump in sales, but would it have any effect on those not in the market for such a vehicle? Would Chevrolet benefit? How about Cadillac?
Conversely, going back to the second example... If someone was considering a Chevy Sonic or Ford Escort, do you think a large recall on a "sibling" model would cause enough concern to have an impact on sales?
I guess what I'm wondering boils down to whether or not a large recall has a different effect on total brand sales of high production vehicles as compared to those of a manufacturer of less mass-produced vehicles?
If Hummer was still in production, would a Chevy recall affect Hummer sales? Would a Hummer recall affect Chevy sales? Cadillac sales?
I wonder. I suspect the frequency of recalls by manufacturer has more to do with impacting sales than the actual seriousness of a recall, unless the recall is of a "major" type as I classified above.
But, that's just a guess...
Baloney #1! Take a look at what happened with the assets of Lehman Bros. and the other large banks in that year. Transfers of assets and firms dissolved in short-order. GM could have been dissolved as a corporation, and the assets sold to Ford or the government could have run GM's assets were auctioned off. The workers could have shown up Mon. morning under new owners - The Auto Czar.
Baloney #2! About half of GM's production and sales is not in the U.S. - so not as big a hurt as it's made out to be.
Overall - if you were right, you're making the case that GM needs to be broken up into their smaller, separate divisions/brands. :P And then they can fail just like other companies and corporations.
Oh I see, yes. They make GM's bailout look like a loan you give to your friend because he can't pay his end of the bar tab
That's pretty much been my experience. The paint is bubbling and has flaked off in a few spots on the tailgate on my expedition. The bubbling started over a year ago. Ford won't cover it because it wasn't rusted through.
It's not the end of the world as I've gotten a few quotes to have it repainted for around $500. Chump change compared to what most of my repairs seem to cost:(
Plus the trim along the drivers side door the runs along the window has all faded and cracked and pretty much looks like hell. Unfortunately, the trim pieces are expensive, I'm not going to spend $500 to replace it. I've just learned to accept it.
Considering it's primarily garage kept, I should have these issues, but I do. So much for quality being job one;)
Unfortunately my ownership experience with a Suburban was far more expensive and irritating.
As I just commented, the feds could have run Ex-GM until it could be orderly broken up and liquidated. I certainly would have been interested in acquiring the Corvette factory and brandname.
Interest rates are being kept artificially low to induce (read: force) those attempting to keep up with inflation to gamble in the stock market. The government says we should increase our savings rate % but at the same time discourages safe savings by forcing $$$$ to the stock market, as well as other higher-risk investments.
Yep, pretty much the case. The stock market seems to be about the only thing thriving, and that's mainly why. It's about the only game in town. But the game is rigged with Insiders, super-fast computer trading, and fund managers making lots of $ (win or lose the bet) being extremely risky. The Federal Reserve is one of the worst offenders of robbing the normal person, to the gain of the wealthy.
I'm really amazed that people in this country aren't much angrier and taking much more action against this Machine. Buying local to me is the farmers' market, not the product of the GM dealer, or Bank of America branch.
Yeah, I don't see Peugeot being the next Apple Corp. I could understand if GM took $2B and invested in Apple, to try and make 25%! Or they could just send out all their employees to buy every compbination in tonight's Mass Million lottery. WEither would have been a much better gamble!
My definition isn't quite as narrow as Kernick's, though.
I do prefer locally produced farm products, but I also try to buy from the businesses that support my local economy... Especially the ones that pay a good wage and offer benefits to large numbers of local workers.
Even if they don't actually make the product I'm buying locally, it still fits my definition.
Major disclaimer: the following is not a political statement, but a simple analysis of the facts....
I'd like to say I agree, but when I see the number of folks that still don't believe Obama is indeed a US citizen or that he's some sort of closeted Muslim (yet, blistering the guy because he attended a Christian church headed by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, which is a major taboo for any dedicated Muslim), it really makes me wonder about the intelligence of the "masses". And, you have major players (I use that term very loosely) such as Donald Trump and sitting members of Congress extolling such nonsense.
I have some Major issues with the current administration, but I'm not gonna waste my time on such nit-picking crap as that.
When Bob Inglis was running for re-election to Congress here in 2010, at a local "town hall" meeting during his campaign, some bozo stood upand shouted "keep your government hands off of my Medicare". It made national news.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/get-your-[non-permissible content removed]-governme_b_252326.html
With a population full of such uninformed citizenry, why should anyone expect people to get upset at what's going on, when they don't even have a clue as to what's going on?
I totally agree on the stock market. I have a buy and hold equity income fund that is down 16% since 2006. They only charged me 2.5% a year to hold my money. Why do that when I can put it in a mm and pay only a $10 per year fee for them to hold my money.
I hear that stock market trading volume is down and money is starting to pour in since interest rates are announced to stay low for 2 more years. There is no way to win anymore. Hoping for a better day 2-3 years from now is all that is left. The market may rise 5% before the election but Iran is on the way to nukes and that will bring a disaster that can happen at any moment.
What about fed debt? We borrow 3 times the value of all the oil we import on a daily basis. That's like going to the bank each day and borrowing $100, then remembering that the tank is empty and borrowing another $33 for gas each day also. Which is the bigger problem, the gas debt or the $133 total borrowed?
I had to sell the Honda Accord privately to get a good value for it. I suppose I could have haggled the dealers more, but it was clear we weren't in the same ballpark. I actually lowered my price several times before it sold... and it sold immediately after I lowered it to 13,250. I think it had more to do with finding a buyer with a good chunk of money to spend that wanted a coupe (rare these days) than it did Honda's resale value not living up to its reputation. So it did take me a long time to sell it, but I did get a good price, and the guy was happy to pay it, didn't negotiate me down at all; he knew it was a steal of a deal.
Well, for one, the bum Honda Transmission in my Accord was paid for by Honda at 42,000 miles and fixed in 2 days. Extended warranty another 36K miles beyond the current mileage when fixed! For two, that problem never stranded me nor required a tow truck. For three, that problem pales in comparison to the numbers and frequency of problems the Neon had.
And lastly, and most importantly, Dodge never offerred to pay up for my BUM tranny in the Neon either! Only the Neon doesn't have a 240 Horsepower excuse as to why it failed early!
I think that is honestly because when you buy a quality product (like an import car) you naturally want to take care of your quality automobile. If you buy crap, you might as well treat it like crap!
I'll give two examples of this human behavior.
1) A while back I got my front bumper re-painted/sprayed because after 65K miles and many back country canyon carving outings, it had too many rock chips to count. After a couple more thousand miles after their crappy/subpar paint job, it looked worse than it did afer 65K miles. They pointed out that there were a bunch of rock chips, and I pointed out that their paint held up after 2,000 miles like my original paint did in 65K miles, so something was amiss! Also, it was flaking and peeling off in other spots, but that's another issue!
So since my bumper already looked like crap after a few months, I naturally didn't bother to be careful with it, I drove over dips in the road carelessly scraping the bottom of my front bumper, and I bumped into curbs or parking concrete stops (my car is very low), because, well, it already looked like crap; so why be careful? Whereas if it was in perfect pristine condition, I'd probably be more likely to avoid bottoming out and scraping and scuffing my front end. So I explained to the shop that yes, some of the damage is from my driving style, but the paint already was crappy, so they need to repaint it under their "warranty." Also, I had notified them months earlier it was starting to flake and peel, and they were the one's who were stalling and making me drive it "ugly."
2) I had an independent local shop give me a quote to change my DSG transmissions fluid and timing belt service. The quote was really cheap to put in a generically named Multi-ATF (Which stands for automatic transmission fluid) in my DSG transmission. Upon further research, I figured out that not only should the DSG transmission only be serviced by Audi/Germany fluid, but it was actually called an OIL, DSG Oil; not fluid. Honda and Audi buyer's guides that come with the new cars in the paperwork both point out that you should ONLY use high quality genuine OEM replacement parts. Especially if your in an accident and getting repairs, they state you should FORCE your insurance company to only use only OEM parts. Honda was the first manufacturer I ever saw this from, and they were very vocal about it. You could say they just want the business, but they make it clear the reason is quality control and longevity/durability.
With a Big 3 car.... you are probably far better off taking the chinese or mexican part as it'll probably last longer than the original OEM Mopar/American part. There was no such flyer or brochure with my Neon about insisting on OEM part replacement with your insurer.
The Neon was different, it was mainly starting to slip into 1st and 2nd gear with slow/stopped starts that sometimes made it jump into gear harshly.
I was told you never really know when it'll completely "go out" so it's best to fix it now (of course the shop would say something like that?) Over time it did seem it was only getting worse and more frequent, not better. I think in general that's the way problems get, worse, never better over time.