GM News, New Models and Market Share

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Comments

  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Ever sat in the back of a 3 series with a normal sized driver up front?

    The CTS is a tweener.


    I'd rather not sit in the back seat of a 3 series or CTS. But I definitely would rather be in the drivers seat of the 3.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    The CTS is a tweener. IIRC, the ATS will close in size to the CTS and the next CTS will move up to 5 series dimensions.

    The last time I sat in a CTS, it felt like the external bulk of a 5-series, but with the interior room of a 3-.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    The last time I sat in a CTS, it felt like the external bulk of a 5-series, but with the interior room of a 3-.

    I agree, I know I don't fit in the back seat of a CTS comfortably.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,906
    I was at our local Chevy dealer yesterday and they have two '13 Malibus. Well, one had a dealer plate and looked like somebody was driving it. It was a creamy white which I liked. Although the interior is upscale from our '11, the difference in rear-seat legroom is very noticeable, sadly. That's one dimension where I think the previous Malibu excelled.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    Although the interior is upscale from our '11, the difference in rear-seat legroom is very noticeable, sadly. That's one dimension where I think the previous Malibu excelled.

    Uh-oh...so you mean the '13 Malibu's back seat legroom is WORSE than the '08-12 style? That's a disappointment to me, because back seat legroom in the current Malibu was its biggest shortcoming for me.

    According to the specs, the outgoing Malibu has 42.2" of front seat legroom and 37.6" of rear legroom. However, when I sat in the back of it, my knees were too high up to fit in the hollowed out space in the seatback, so that's why I couldn't fit comfortably.

    Just for kicks, I looked up the Altima, since there's a good chance I might be buying my Mom's '08. 44.1" of legroom in front, and 35.8" in the rear.

    I'd really love to know how they get these measurements, because up front, the Altima and Malibu both felt about the same to me...very generous. But, in back, I could fit in the Altima a bit better, although my head did brush the ceiling. I don't remember it brushing in the Malibu. But, at least I didn't have to crouch like I do in the Impala!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    From the article:

    The average age of a Buick buyer has fallen from 64 to 61

    The Encore should help with that. That'll find a few empty nesters and young families.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,906
    Andre, I know you're a tall guy, while I'm a short (5'8"), round guy (!), but just by looks, the rear seat legroom is less. When I've sat in the back of our '11, my knees don't touch the front seats at all. That wouldn't happen in a '13 I'm sure. I'd be curious to see the dimensions when they come out.

    One thing, starting with '77 full-sizes, that GM used to excel at was interior room for exterior dimensions. Even into the boring '80's cars like Citation and Celebrity, they were good that way. Ford's roundish '80's Thunderbird and Tempo/Topaz seemed smaller inside to me than GM's boxy competition, although I don't know that for a fact. It seems like nobody builds for maximum interior space packaging anymore.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think they build with crash protection in mind first and foremost. Gotta get those 5 stars and Top Safety Picks.

    Pillars are thicker, and windows seem to be disappearing or at least getting chopped short.

    Have you seen a Range Rover Evoque? It's gotten insane...and people love 'em.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    This is what I've been saying since time immemorial. Buying a car you don't like just because it has better "resale value" is still throwing money away in my book! I probably would give two cents for many of the cars that get this mythical "good resale value." Heck, if the car is so awesome, why do you want to get rid of it? If I think a car is so awesome, I'm likely to keep it until I run it into the ground. I still have my 1989 Cadillac Brougham and intend to keep it forever.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The only other car on that list that even remotely appeals to me is the Mercedes C250 which is a colossal waste of money when I could've got the most ultimate Grand Marquis LS for far less money. I wonder when the next time I'll speed through the slaloms when I'm stuck in traffic on I-95 or the Schulkill Expressway?
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The LaCrosse is very likely the next car in our fleet. I just can't seem to pull the trigger. I'm adverse to having another car payment. Wifey wants the ultimate LaCrosse CSX with all the whistles!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Very, very few people think the same way you do.

    You're one of a kind! :P
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,477
    Just watch out for that MSRP on a loaded one...maybe they depreciate nicely at 18-24 months due to fleets, might be a better time to buy.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    Andre, I know you're a tall guy, while I'm a short (5'8"), round guy (!), but just by looks, the rear seat legroom is less.

    Yeah, I'm 6'3", with a 36" inseam, so there's a lot of back seats I don't fit into all that well. And a lot of front seats, as well! Plus, I like to stretch out, so just because I can physically fit, doesn't mean I'm automatically going to be comfortable.

    I just found some 2013 Malibu stats online, and it looks like it has 42.1" of front legroom, 36.9" of rear legroom. So, in theory at least, that's not much of a loss.

    I want to say the old downsized '78+ GM intermediate coupes only had something like 36.4" of legroom in back, yet I remember fitting fairly well in the back seat of my '80 Malibu, '82 Cutlass Supreme, and '86 Monte Carlo coupes.

    One thing, starting with '77 full-sizes, that GM used to excel at was interior room for exterior dimensions.

    I'll even give GM some credit for the '73-77 intermediates. They're inefficient by today's standards, especially the 2-door models, but I think they compare well to the '71-79 Mopar "B-body" intermediates and the '72-79 Ford Torino/LTD-II and its spawn. For such a low-slung car, my '76 LeMans has, IMO, pretty good seat height, while still maintaining some semblance of headroom. In contrast, the Ford and Mopar equivalents feel like you're sitting much lower to the floor, yet they're still not overly generous with headroom. The power seat in my LeMans also has a greater range of motion than what I've seen in the likes of a Cordoba or '77-79 T-bird. Or my '79 New Yorker, for that matter, a car that was based heavily on the old '71-79 B-body.

    Those GM intermediates were also smaller on the outside than their Ford/Mopar rivals. My LeMans coupe is about 208" long, on a 112" wb. A rival Torino or Montego was on a 114" wb and around 215" long, while a "small" Fury or Coronet coupe was on a 115" wb, and around 215" long.

    Even into the boring '80's cars like Citation and Celebrity, they were good that way.

    IMO, the 1980 X-body pretty much created the mold for the modern intermediate car. Unitized, FWD, good space efficiency, choice of 4 or V-6 power. It was marketed as a compact, but by EPA standards, was an intermediate. Most midsized cars today are essentially a modernized, improved, 1980 Citation IMO.

    Ford's roundish '80's Thunderbird and Tempo/Topaz seemed smaller inside to me than GM's boxy competition, although I don't know that for a fact.

    I know for a fact something like a Monte Carlo or Grand Prix from the 80's roomier inside than a T-bird, but I had to look up the Tempo versus a Cavalier. A Cavalier sedan was slightly bigger than a Tempo sedan (91 cubic feet of passenger volume and 14 cubic foot trunk versus 90/13 for the Tempo). The Tempo 2-door, however, was the same size inside as the sedan, while a Cavalier coupe was only rated at 84/13. The Cavalier coupe had a lower roofline than the sedan and less headroom, which probably accounted for most of that, while I think the Tempo 2-door was the same height as the 4-door. The Cavalier had thinner roof pillars and larger windows, which might have also helped it feel roomier inside.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Peeked at fitzmall.com, the highest MSRP is $36,840 but their no-haggle price is $32,797.

    So a pretty decent discount to start with.

    Goes back to an earlier topic - residuals. You're only paying 89% of the MSRP, so 11% of the depreciation is already taken care of.

    I'd time it at the end of the model year and aim for even steeper discounts, though.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,477
    End of year for sure. I remember a local dealer blowing out Regal CXL at the end of last year for like 22K - and if that's the screamer ad, probably a little wiggle room, too.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    Peeked at fitzmall.com, the highest MSRP is $36,840 but their no-haggle price is $32,797.

    I just found a couple that are worse than that! One is a Premium 3 for $38,082 and an MSRP of $41,290! The other is a CXS for $38,099, and an MSRP of $41,240.

    One thing I'll give them credit for...at least it looks like Buick is doing a better job of keeping the bottom-feeders out of its fleet. The cheapest LaCrosses I'm seeing at Fitzmall are internet priced around $28,300, with MSRP's of around $31-32K. So, at least Buick does seem to be getting a bit more premium. In the old days, they were much higher volume, but that's because a lot of Century Customs and LeSabre Customs got dumped into rental fleets. I'm sure Regals and LaCrosses still end up as rentals, because there ARE going to be people who want them. But at least they're not getting over-produced and dumped like they used to.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,477
    There are plenty of Regals and Lacrosse in the fleets - but from what I have seen, they are all decently equipped, I think all with leather, many with roof, some Lacrosse even with nav.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/27/opel-to-debut-engines-developed-with-saic-at-- the-paris-motor-sho/

    3 cylinder engines co-developed with a Chinese partner. What could possibly go wrong? ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Which is totally on-topic in a GM thread because it is *not* a GM recall and other recalls do exist, LOL.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/03/26/bmw-recalls-1-3-million-2003-2010-5-and-6-ser- ies-models/
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Every so often when comparing car notes I get reminded that Andre is a full 10" taller than me all of which is inseam! That'll change your preferences in a hurry!
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm all torso, about 6' with shoes on.

    I usually feel squeezed for rear seat head room in swoopy cars.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Excellent balancing act! BMW should be ashamed!

    Regards,
    OW
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,686
    edited March 2012
    OMG. 1,300,000 cars! Were they built here in the states? Or shipped in?
    Oh the humanity of it. Just shows what junk they have been building all these years. Proves some of us were right. :sick:

    There, now that we've taken care of a relatively innocuous battery cover problem which might, might cause a fire, we can go back to talking about a set of brake pads missing on a Sonic or one steering wheel being loose on a Cruze--the important stuff! :shades:

    (I feel so much better.) :P

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,906
    Now THAT's a recall!

    Again, if we mention every other aspect of competitive manufacturers' cars here, why not mention their recalls too--in comparison with GM recalls?

    Maybe 'balance' isn't the right word, but 'objectivity' is!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,906
    fezo, your inseam is 26" too? That's about what mine is! I can never buy pants right off the rack, dammit!
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,906
    OK, it's not high comedy, but I thought this Red Green clip was kinda comical, for those of us here who are married or in a relationship.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxnui77xQOQ&feature=related
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    Gee, does BMW buy their battery covers from GM? :blush: :P
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    26" You got it. I have a reasonably normal abdomen - just no legs to speak of!

    Oh, forget off the rack pants!
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,038
    fezo, your inseam is 26" too? That's about what mine is! I can never buy pants right off the rack, dammit!

    Wow, a 26" inseam must be a nightmare to find off the rack! Sometimes I can find a 36 inseam, but it's not often. I can often make do with a 34", depending on how the pants are made.
  • fezofezo Member Posts: 10,386
    I tend to buy pants from someplace like Lands End that dies free inseam work.

    Funny thing is when I go to drive a car that one of my daughters has been driving I have to move the seat back! They are each 5'2" with tiny legs.

    I think daughter #3 will be taller and #4 is adopted and no genetic clue but my best guess is she'll top out around 5'2" as well....
    2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Every manufacturer has recalls, but I agree that the number is astounding in this case.

    I betting whoever kept this issue "under wraps" for so long, without implementing a modified battery cable before so many were installed is looking for employment now, as he should be...

    To me, as complicated as cars are nowadays, I'm surprised we don't see more recalls...

    All it takes is a single part to experience a higher failure rate.

    And, lets be honest about it... BMW doesn't have a "rich" history of voluntary recalls, and I say that as a multiple BMW owner...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    5 years with no major maintenance, then they trade up! Hilarious!

    I don't think recalls are as negative as most people seem to think, never have (I've been a member since 1998 and expressed that many times over the years).

    We've all seen how they can be masked as "customer satisfaction campaigns" to fudge the numbers, anyway.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Anyone notice how I've been holding back on the Shelby news? It's been difficult not to post it.

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Looks like GM will not be able to pay back former GMC bailout funds.

    Back when Ally Financial was known as GMAC Financial, the U.S. Treasury gave it $17.2 billion in TARP funds to weather the global economic crisis. GMAC is now Ally Financial, and although it has repaid $5.4 billion of what it was loaned, there doesn't seem to be a clear path for repaying the outstanding amount. Bloomberg reports that Ally's mortgage unit, Residential Captial (ResCap), is teetering on the ledge of bankrupcty, and its banking operations didn't perform well in the Federal Reserve's stress tests that assess a bank's health.

    An IPO for the entire company faces dim prospects (one was rumored back in April of 2011), so in a private equity ploy, the Treasury would like Ally to divvy itself up and sell the pieces to unlock value. Estimates are that the pieces could fetch $23.1 to $28.6 billion. The plan is supported by Elliott Management Corp, a shareholder that holds 2.3 percent of Ally stock. However, Ally's CEO and its board don't want to break the company up, and the Treasury – which holds 74 percent – doesn't want to lean on the leadership too hard for fear of "appearing as a heavy-handed owner."

    In addition, the looming bankruptcy of ResCap will have an unknown effect on Ally's ability to do anything. Before the mortgage implosion, GMAC's auto unit was struggling and ResCap was restructured as a separate entity so that it wouldn't be dragged down by the captive finance department. The situation is reversed now, with ResCap in trouble and the captive finance arm supporting itself, but Elliot feels that the restructuring won't be enough to shield Ally from perhaps 18 months of litigation and billions in claims.

    Ally execs feel differently, but no one will know until the trigger is pulled and the courts weigh in. With the Treasury reluctant to compel a move, it could be some time before it sees its $11.8 billion again.


    Regards,
    OW
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I did see an article where the new ultra high performance Shelby Mustang photos had been photo-shopped, making it look like the car was lifting the front end off the ground.

    That was a bit embarassing, I think...
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I did see an article where the new ultra high performance Shelby Mustang photos had been photo-shopped, making it look like the car was lifting the front end off the ground.

    Yes, doped-up pix for sure....but the package will be unbelievable for the deep-pocket club!

    Regards,
    OW
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,938
    I probably would give two cents for many of the cars that get this mythical "good resale value." Heck, if the car is so awesome, why do you want to get rid of it?

    It's not a mythical resale value. For example, a dinner at an average Steakhouse for 8 would wipe out the value of a Neon with 65K miles.

    The 2003 Accord V6 Coupe at 50 months and 65,000 miles of age I used to have gave me 13,250 reasons to sell it to get the 2006 A3. Those are 13,250 very real, very big reasons! That is the cold hard truth. Things change.... one day...2 doors is enough, another, you might need 4 or 5. With a big 3 car, your basically stuck, with the Japanese car, you have a big down payment.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,906
    edited March 2012
    Model-for-model, I do think Japanese cars have higher resale. It's that old 'perception is reality' thing. But some of that is offset, I think, by the higher new-car prices of Japanese cars. But I'd never let that sway me to buying a car that wasn't my first choice. As I've said, I love Studebakers and would've bought one new in the last few years if I could have, and they had low resale. Basically, I don't care. Honestly, I care less about that than where the parent company is from, where the car is assembled, percentage of NA parts, all in total. But first of all, I have to want the car. But I'm with lemko as he had previously pointed out...you're less-likely to get that alien or 'insectoid' styling, with headlights almost touching the windshield!--in a domestic brand. Just MHO.

    Also, just asking...did you price the A3 with and without trade? You were 'trading up' and I'm sure that didn't hurt your trade-in value any.

    When I bought my Malibu, including my GM card rebate, I got about 20% off sticker, and then got 35% of that net new-car price back with my 72-month old van trade-in, with hail damage but overall clean, 94K miles, a discontinued model and like I said, a van.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • kernickkernick Member Posts: 4,072
    When I bought my Malibu, including my GM card rebate, I got about 20% off sticker, and then got 35% of that net new-car price.

    And if Uncle Sam will subsidize my restaurant that'll lose money otherwise, I'll open up a local restaurant for you, selling $5 T-Bone dinners. We'll make you and your neighbors real happy. ;)
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    I finally gave up buying 2nd rate cars from GM which is proven by their bottom of the industry re-sale value and under average quality. I'm not saying the Europeans are any better for quality but for re-sale value, they are among the highest.

    Like it or not, US manufacturers have themselves to blame for the reality.

    Kudos for paying the market price for your cars! :shades:

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,906
    edited March 2012
    under average quality

    Since so many people here bow to CR, my Malibu and the '11 Sonata had the same reliability rating. And circlew, you amaze me sometimes. You once actually brought up GM's 1971 recall when we were talking recalls of current vehicles, yet when faced with poor 2009 Kia quality, your take is 'that was then, this is now'.

    Hmmm.

    I'd sure rather subsidize an American-headquartered company, which employs more Americans and American suppliers, than subsidizing Korea and Japan.

    And kernick, why don't you check out how much money governments threw at German, Korean, and Japanese manufacturers to build their plants in the deep south?

    As we learned in ninth grade economics class, I'd rather save the money up front than worry about getting it several years down the road.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited March 2012
    It's that old 'perception is reality' thing. But some of that is offset, I think, by the higher new-car prices of Japanese cars.

    Honestly, I believe it has as much to do with supply/demand as anything else. Honda in particular sells very few fleet vehicles. Just look at the number of used Cruzes vs Civics. There are over 4,000 used 2011 Cruzes available and only 1677 Civics.

    There are 8,645 used 2011 Malibus listed on Autotrader vs 1,343 Accords. The Malibu didn't sell 7x more Malibus in 2011. The sheer number of used Cruze and Malibus vs Civics and Accords is a huge reason the Chevs will have lower resale.

    Then look at v6 Accord vs v6 Malibus. Autotrader lists 1737 v6 Malibus vs 263 v6 Accords. I'd think very few v6 Malibus are fleet yet they are dumped on the used market 6 to 1 vs the Accord v6.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,906
    I can't argue that point. But as I said, I really don't care about resale value. I was pleasantly surprised what my '05 Uplander brought towards a low-priced new car. As is usually the case, things that the masses think are great or awful are usually somewhere in the middle.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,686
    There also is the factor of word-of-mouth value. For many people they rely on the vocal evaluations of some devoted fans of certain brands. It's like Enron stock was. Notice despite the transmission problems for decades with Honda products, they still sell. People still think they're getting a great deal on a used Odyssey which is likely to puke the transmission. I read the threads about VCM and the dissatisfied customers. It seems HOnda isn't treating them the way it used to treat the customers with defective vehicles in the days of larger profit margins due to currency exchange rates.

    When will the bad reputation of certain vehicles on sludge, runaway acceleration, brake wear, transmissions, poor software engineeering for engine/transmission control, etc., affect the reputation with new, neophyte buyers.

    As for the comparison between brands and the numbers for sale, I don't think that is all due to companies dumping fleet purchases of the US brand vehicles. I believe many people buying Hotoy imports justify the extra they get charged by the stealerships by holding onto them for a long, long time. And I see driveways with replacement GM products every 2 or 3 years.

    For some reason the Hotoy fans didn't turn on the makes the way that US manufacturer customers did. Is it that the US makers were the Old House of their parents?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited March 2012
    I don't think most people get rid of a car they like early than they need too. The vast majority of toyhon owners I know who keep them a long time do so because of good reliability and liking the vehicle.

    My MIL has a 160k on her 05 Camry and only has had one repair. My dad's 09 accord has required one minor repair in 70k miles. His previous Taurus was in the shop 4 or 5 times, once via tow truck by the same mileage. The Saturn my MIL traded in was junk by 120k.

    I've dumped many domestics by 3 years mainly due to them falling apart. The insanity is I keep buying them.

    As far as price. My dad chose the Accord, partially due to the deal he got on it. He paid 26k for a $30k Accord, and they gave him 2k for a 00 Taurus with 180k on it. The Honda dealer was as willing to deal as the Ford dealer. He ended up with the accord over the fusion because he felt he was getting more car for the$.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    You act as if the big-3 never got any government subsidies or incentives, which is almost beyond belief.

    This constant "well, they did it, so we should be excused when we did it, too" mentality is why the big-3 got their butts caught up in a sling and lost to foreign based competition.

    While they were only concerned with each other, competitors entered the market and cleaned their clocks.

    The idea that " Sure, my product is lousy, but it's marginally better that the other guy's even more lousier product, so you should buy it anyway" is a sure fire way to go out of business.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,906
    I'm trying to remember the last time a completely-new Big Three plant was built in the 'States--probably Spring Hill, TN...unlike the German, Japanese, and Korean-owned plants here.

    So, again, we're talking 'then' versus 'now'.

    I think I look for objectivity or a level playing field, more than other routine posters here.

    Again, that's probably my humble, small-town upbringing, but who knows.

    Trust me, I do think a Toyota built here is more advantageous than the many Toyotas built in Japan and sold here, now or in the past.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,906
    I'm trying to remember the last time a completely-new Big Three plant was built in the 'States--probably Spring Hill, TN...unlike the German, Japanese, and Korean-owned plants here.

    So, again, we're talking 'then' versus 'now'.

    I think I look for objectivity or a level playing field, more than other routine posters here.

    Again, that's probably my humble, small-town upbringing, but who knows.

    Trust me, I do think a Toyota built here is more advantageous than the many Toyotas built in Japan and sold here, now or in the past.

    Probably the root of it all for me is, I hate hypocrisy.

    I think there are a couple posters here (present person I'm responding to excepted) where the hypocrisy of posts is absolutely stunning. But hey, it's a free country...just like in choosing which car to buy.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,686
    You're right in that some present their thinking and logic just as I have my logic and my thinking. There can be a communication. I appreciate that people like busiris and dieselone discuss and explain--even if they believe I am wrong!!! Grin.

    As for the problems, I offer my leSabres (3), my Cobalt, and my prior Centuries (1989) as examples that had few if any problems to be fixed.

    Then again, I have to respect that I had a darned good Buick/Chev/GMC/Pontiac/Geo garage who cared about their customers. The service manager told me that a major problem is that many people just drive the car from A to B without taking care of the regular maintenance. Then when the lack of maintenance allows something bigger to occur, they are all upset. Over the decades the newly planted imports were much more successful at getting import owners to return to the dealer for the mandated checkups and to only use import supplied products. I recall reading in an import brand thread last week someone asking if they could use another brand of antifreeze in their import brando--they were afraid they might hurt it with a nonmanufacturer supplied product. Same for engine and transmission oils.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

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