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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited December 2012
    Toyota = 1,093,894
    GM = 950,414


    That reminds me. I watched "Tora! Tora! Tora!" for the first time last night. Great movie...particularly effects, for a 1970 movie. I remember my Dad watching it on TV when I was a teen and not interested (duh).

    Some other interesting data about employment, from July 2012:

    Detroit Three vs. Japanese Three: 181,000 to 67,000

    Source:

    http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2012/07/american-made-index-which-automakers-- - affect-the-most-us-workers.html

    Ah, I hear it now! "They employ more Americans?! They're bloated! They need to be more efficient like the Japanese guys!". ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Not necessarily apples-to-apples, but when three of us commute across PA, all our stuff goes in the trunk of my Cobalt. Stuff in the other guys' Matrix falls into the back seat. Ugh.

    That's just poor packing;)

    The trunk of my wife's Taurus is big like 18-20 cubic feet, but it's not easy to use. I about kill my back trying to place or reach something that's at the back of the trunk. Plus the opening isn't very big, so large items aren't easy to get in.

    Despite her having a full-size car with large trunk, we always take the Expedition when shopping, it's so much easier to load and unload. Plus almost anything will easily fit.

    But more than anything, I've grown accustom to how much easier the Expedition is to use vs. the Taurus. Easier to get in and out of, more comfortable etc. So we just naturally prefer to take it.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    So what is it, designed for more overall cubic footage? Wider hips? Larger midsections? Hah!

    "The new Malibu, with more fatboy room than ever! Designed in America by Americans!" :shades:

    Admittedly I could use a little more hip room myself but I still need legroom, I'm a 6 footer.

    We'll have to see what the emergency redesign does. The one for the new Civic wasn't much more than skin deep, it's harder to do a full redsign on short notice than it is to do a re-skin.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    edited December 2012
    Detroit Three vs. Japanese Three: 181,000 to 67,000

    That has zero influence on the vehicles I drive and in the scheme of things doesn't mean as much as it appears. Isn't there nearly 3 million jobs directly related to the US auto industry and they are employed by Detroit and the transplants.

    If the Japanese 3 were to close shop in the US, far more than 67k jobs would be affected.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If you want to talk about "bloat", take a look at VW. On the surface they look amazingly inefficient. Someone posted a link around here last week and the article compared them to GM of 50 years ago. Lots of brands, all run as little fiefdoms, and not much parts or engineering sharing. Instead of lots of suppliers, I think they make a lot of stuff "in-house".
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    Ah, I hear it now! "They employ more Americans?! They're bloated! They need to be more efficient like the Japanese guys!".

    If a business is unsustainable, then high employment is just temporary.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited December 2012
    See, told ya that high employment is a bad thing! ;)

    Found my Chevy mailer that just came this morning.

    In the handout:

    2012 Silverado LT 4WD Ext. Cab "All Star Edition": 0% for 60 mos. plus $1K trade-in allowance when you trade in an eligible vehicle, plus $1K bonus cash, or $5,500 customer cash, $1,500 All-Star Edition Option Package Discount (I'd think this would be right on the window sticker, though), $1K Bonush Cash plus $1K trade-in allowance when you trade in an eligible vehicle--"TOTAL $9,000 when you trade in an eligible vehicle".

    2012 Tahoe--0% for 72 mos. plus $1K bonus cash, or $3K cash allowance.

    2012 Traverse--0% for 72 mos. or $2K customer cash.

    2013 Malibu--2.9% for 60 mos.

    No mention of any other 2013 models at all, except the Malibu.

    It says the new Malibu has 100 cu. ft. interior room vs. 97.7 in the '12. It isn't in the rear seat legroom; I can tell that by looking.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    2013 Malibu--2.9% for 60 mos.

    Not a good sign when there's incentives on the hood for the model year that has just recently begun. Even worse sign when it's a newly redesigned model. Was that all trims, or maybe they're trying to get rid of some of the excess Ecos?
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Heck, I don't think that incentive is even all that great. Seems to me that GM and Ford often have somewhat bloated sticker prices compared to a lot of the competition, so I think they've built in incentive money. Ford has incentives on the brand new Escape for example. Also, thanks to the Federal Reserve manipulations, corporate money is dirt cheap right now. They can actually make financing profit off of 2.9% money.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    See, told ya that high employment is a bad thing!

    Once again, looking at the world from a one-dimensional viewpoint.

    High employment is a good thing ONLY if the items or services being provided are in demand and are selling well.

    High employment at a horse-buggy manufacturing plant probably isn't a very good thing, especially since few use buggies for transportation needs now.

    AT&T could restart a factory manufacturing dial-type telephones, and hire 100K workers to staff it, but I don't know anyone that would consider that a "good" idea.

    One can't simply look at one side of an equation and determine if it makes sense or not... Well, that is, unless you're a politician...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    No offense, but your examples being compared to the D3 employing more Americans by far than the J3, are rather spurious.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I dunno when NHTSA started doing the offset crash, but I do remember a section of the 1984 Consumer Reports auto issue that focused on safety. It stated something like "No car built today can survive a 35 mph crash into a fixed barrier. Yet, the driver has a remarkable chance of not only surviving, but walking away, unharmed."

    There was an airbag-equipped 1974 Olds Delta 88 4-door hardtop that was used in Smokey and the Bandit. It was dressed up as a police car, and toward the end, right after the Snowman crashes his rig through the two '67 Fords, a '77 LeMans hits one of the Fords and then the Delta smashes into the LeMans.

    The Olds only received minor damage, and the airbags didn't deploy. I heard that, several years later, it was used in a crash test, mainly to see how well the airbag performed.

    Also, a few years back, I remember seeing an online pic of an Olds 98 equipped with airbags, that was crashed into a barrier. IIRC, it was red. Dunno if it was NHTSA that crashed it, though. Also dunno how the car did in the test, but the airbags did go off, and the way the car folded up, it actually appeared to do quite well. The front clip of the car buckled and folded up, much like a unit-body car, and the passenger cabin didn't get much damage.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I already can't find it, but it's touting the Malibu as having more interior room than the previous model (100 cu. ft. versus 90-something).

    Awhile back, I figured out that if you multiply front seat legroom x shoulder room x headroom, do the same for the back seat, add both together, and then divide by 1728 (to convert from cubic inches to cubic feet), the number comes out very close to the published specs.

    I tried that with the 2013 and 2012 Malibu and came out with 100.35 and 97.42, respectively. According to Chevy's website, the 2013 has 100.3 cubic feet, while the 2012 has 98 according to cars.com. Fueleconomy.com lists both at 95 cubic feet of passenger volume, and a 16 cubic foot trunk, so that tells me that they just screwed up and accidentally published the 2012 figures for 2013. They do list the 2013 Regal at 98 cubic feet of passenger volume, and a 13 cubic foot trunk.

    The 2013 gets most of its boost from shoulder room...57.5" up front and 57.1 in the rear, compared to 55.9 and 53.9 for the 2012 model. Legroom doesn't suffer much, in theory. The 2013 has 36.9", while the 2012 has 37.6". The 2013 also lost a smidge up front, at 42.1 versus 42.2".

    However, the big question in my mind continues to be how, exactly do they arrive at these legroom measurements? I've found that that there's often little rhyme or reason to them, with regards to how well I fit.

    Just from knowing what the published specs are on some of the cars I've had over the years, if I was to assign an arbitrary legroom number, I'd rate the 2008-2012 at around 35" and the 2013 around 31-32". I think my '76 LeMans coupe is rated 32.9" in the back seat, while my '68 Dart was only 32" Yet, I could fit in the back of either of those better than I could the 2013 Malibu.

    I think my old Intrepid was about 38.3" in back, while my Park Ave might be around 40"? In the Intrepid my knees wouldn't touch the seatback, but they do in the Park Ave. However, the Park Ave has a higher seating position, which will inflate the legroom number.

    My '67 Catalina convertible is only rated 33.9" in the back seat, yet I fit just fine.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    Ford has incentives on the brand new Escape for example

    Yes, my friend who bought his '13 Escape probably a couple months ago, mentioned that he got a rebate, but it was a small one...I'm thinking it was $500.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    With the latest ( and still unsolved) engine fire dust up with the Escape and the number of overall recalls its had in general, you can probably bet on more rebates coming down the pipe for the Escape.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I believe I saw somewhere recently where the F-150 eco-boost has a possible issue in wet weather after high speed driving causing it to stumble? I'm definitely wait and see before I buy another turbo personally. I think the technology is more suited to aircraft than cars. Some of the more modern diesel tech may be a better answer to cars, but not the stinky Ford and Chevy pick up diesel engines I've had the displeasure to be by stuck in traffic.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Autoworkers Employed 2012

    D3=181,000

    ToyHondNisHunKia=74,300

    CARS Sold YTD Nov2012
    D3 = 1,472,508

    ToyHonNisHyunKia =3,344,554

    That's what happens when your head remains in the clouds at D3 management and UAW.

    Regards,
    OW
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    I believe I saw somewhere recently where the F-150 eco-boost has a possible issue in wet weather after high speed driving causing it to stumble? I'm definitely wait and see before I buy another turbo personally. I think the technology is more suited to aircraft than cars. Some of the more modern diesel tech may be a better answer to cars, but not the stinky Ford and Chevy pick up diesel engines I've had the displeasure to be by stuck in traffic.

    Some makes do very well with forced induction and turbocharging, but overall, since a turbocharger adds additional parts, that means there are additional parts to fail, relative to a normally aspirated engine.

    To me, it all boils down to the risk/reward factor. It the implementation is done well, and has a good track record, and it buys me great mpg and extra HP/performance, I'm all in.

    A turbo just so I can say I have turbo power? No, thanks...
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    With a diesel, forced induction is a must or you won't have much power. Outside of a garder tractor, I don't think you'll find a N/A diesel.

    As for the smell, with the new urea injection systems, the current crop of diesels are surprisingly quiet and don't smell nearly as bad as those made a few years ago.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    A turbo just so I can say I have turbo power? No, thanks...

    Why not? People turned V6 badges into something to be coveted. No matter how inefficient or crappy or terrible said V6 might be, it was turned into an object of desire. You could put a 1.5L V6 into an car and so long as it had a badge, it'd be desirable over the more powerful, more efficient, less expensive 2.0L I4 that came standard with the car.

    The same could be done with turbo, if done properly. Ford strikes me as doing it properly, they are building an entire ethos around the "EcoBoost" badge: both power AND efficiency. GM should be looking to do something similar.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    edited December 2012
    I haven't driven an eco-boost and am a bit put off by the price premium and the fact that you can't always get it on AWD versions. I'm presuming they have minimized turbo lag, but I'm leery about reliability and especially durability since turbo's usually operate at greater rpm and higher temperature. An automobile turbo can actually have more complexity than an aircraft turbine engine because of it's necessary wider operating range and parameters. You don't do a lot of tooling around in stop and go traffic in a B737 and once airborne the air temperature is much lower. I hope these initial issues are just niggling start up issues and Ford has done it's homework given it's large investment and it's apparent product strategy built around turbo's.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Other companies have been using them for years. Subaru lives on the things, as does VW. They've been around a long time now so I don't forsee any major teething problems.
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Well we are talking about ford. They can screw up something as common as a spark plug;) They went from having them spit out of the head to breaking off when you need to change them;)
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    True. Then again, with everyone else using turbos (Heck HYUNDAI is using them successfully) that argues that A: they're mature technology and should be OK to use, and B: they'd better keep up with the Joneses.

    VW - 1.8L turbo
    Dodge: 1.4L turbo
    Chevy: 1.4L turbo, 2.0L turbo
    Hyundai: 1.6L turbo (twin scroll no less), 2.0L turbo
    Subaru: 2.0L turbo, 2.5L turbo, 2.5L STI turbo
    Nissan: 1.6L turbo
    Ford: 1.0L EcoBoost, 1.6L EcoBoost, 2.0L EcoBoost, 3.5L EcoBoost V6.

    Toyota is proving to be a little behind the times (again) but they're heavily invested in hybrid tech. Honda and Mazda are employing DI and Atkinson cycles to boost efficiency instead (EarthDreams and SkyActiv...one tagline sucks and the other one is Mazda's heh). I think Mazda is phasing out their turbo gasoline engines.

    Anyway, turbos are a lightweight way to add efficiency, and therefore power, without a corresponding increase in displacement, and thereby size and weight. It also has the advantage of extracting more energy per unit of fuel instead of simply burning a larger quantity of fuel to get more power. They also a lot more flexibility when it comes to engine design, particularly when it comes to power and torque curves. So Ford is being pretty smart: I bet they end up in F150s after they run in passenger cars for a while.

    Not including luxury brands like Buick, Cadillac and Mercedes because it just makes things too complicated and because we're apparently allowed to disqualify things we disagree with by decree. :P

    Anyway, GM could come up with a nice marketing tagline (maybe call it EcoSport to go with RallySport and SuperSport) and go with the turbos.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Referencing diesel, I fully agree.

    I was basing my comments on gasoline powered engines.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited December 2012
    Referencing Ford, has anyone heard of any updates on the 1.6 EcoBoost Escape fire issues/recall? Have they determined the cause of the problem yet, and more importantly, the fix?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2013-ford-fusion-recall-delivery-stop-ordered.ht- ml

    New Fusion recall. I don't believe it's been posted here yet.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Recalls are really turning into a disaster for Ford. One really has to wonder what's going on there.

    Regarding the specific issue you addressed, it doesn't seem that serious. Still, these recalls are starting to mount up.

    How many can they sustain before irreparable damage is done to the brand?
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    Headlights seem not too serious, but that 'stop delivery' sounds serious. It's a decent number of cars, too, for a recent launch.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    Sure doesn't sound good. I think they'll be ok as long as the recalls don't continue to pile up and the fire issue gets resolved soon. Seems every launch lately hasn't gone very well. Looks to me like Ford has taken on more than it can handle.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    They need to push. They're in an excellent position to grow and they need to take advantage of the goodwill stemming from not taking a bailout. It makes sense that they'd push. GM's vulnerable.

    They probably should have dumped Lincoln instead of Mercury though. Lincoln just has too Buick an image and Ford needs to be chasing BMW and Caddy.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Recalls are really turning into a disaster for Ford.

    ...and they promoted the guy in charge, Fields, to Mulally's heir apparent. Only in America!
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    How many can they sustain before irreparable damage is done to the brand?

    Ever hear the term you "can't beat a dead horse?"

    How much damage can you do to a damaged brand. ??? Yes, Ford didn't take the bailouts, but they are a BIG 3 company and therefore just as guilty by association. The only difference is they were more active in fixing their problems sooner than at GM or Chrysler both of which basically stuck their heads in the sand until Uncle Sam came to the rescue. Make no mistake, Ford has had reliability issues nearly on par with Chrysler and GM in the past.

    I see Ford as a resusitated heart victim that is on life support and maybe they've recovered and are out of the hospital, but I wouldn't want to be the insurance company selling them life insurance right now.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Detroit Three vs. Japanese Three: 181,000 to 67,000

    The difference is that the 67,000 working for the Japanese 3 are earning their paychecks while the 181,000 for the Detroit Three are leeches to society and taxpayers; worse even, than those that commit fraud to receive undue welfare and/or unemployment benefits.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    No offense, but your examples being compared to the D3 employing more Americans by far than the J3, are rather spurious.

    I think more Americans would agree with Busiris before agreeing with you. Remember, well over 50% of Americans were against bailing out the D3.

    It was just a Cou de Gra that made that happen.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Audi will be bringing in the new 2013/14 A3 only as a sedan version for the US.

    Maybe if it doesn't sell better than the hatch they'll correct the mistake later on.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    Wow andres, nothing like painting with a broad brush.

    Amazing.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    The only point I was attempting to make in that postings was this:

    Creating full employment within a country isn't that difficult to do.

    What IS difficult to do is to create full employment that is self sustaining.

    Pre WWII Germany eliminated high unemployment by creating government based jobs. The Autobahn is a great example, since at the time, there weren't nearly enough cars in Germany to justify such a highly developed road system.

    We could largely do away with high unemployment in the US if we elected to, say, mandate the usage of Volt-type automobiles, and along with that, mandate the creation of solar-powered home charging systems.

    Add in the creation of a couple of hundred Solyndra-style government funded companies to make and install these soar panel networks, along with the necessary supporting mechanisms required, and now... Everyone has a job.

    Problem is, it isn't self-supporting.

    From my viewpoint, I'm hesitant to tie the bailouts to such a process... Yet.

    I think it's very possible that GM can regain a profitable status not requiring government support, but its certainly got a ways to go. Not only does GM have to maintain manufacturing a competitive and viable product, but it has to deal with its long-term obligations still on the horizon.

    Just as important, GM needs to get its stock price up to the point the government can recoup its investment. If it can't succeed in doing that, the bailout stigma will hang around GM's neck like a dead albatross for years to come.
  • fho2008fho2008 Member Posts: 393
    VW/Audi have had the 2.0 turbo here for many years (yes it was 1.8 before that), and in europe turbo AND supercharged engines think its called twincharger or something? Not to mention Porsche turbos.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    People in the US did used to see turbos and superchargers as objects of desire. Then the whole "no replacement for displacement" thing started,

    It's all Preston Tucker's fault. He wanted to design a 9 liter engine. ;)
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    Realize how epic and grand a failure Chrysler and GM were.

    They were losing not millions but BILLIONS a month. Not per year, but per month!

    In order to lose that much money, you have to be a tremendous failure at the top, the bottom, and the middle.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    edited December 2012
    GM is unveiling their new redesigned full size pickups. All well and good, they needed a redesign. Slight problem: the new one doesn't come out until spring 2013, and dealers have got over a 3 months supply on-hand and no sign of slowing down yet. With the 2014 announced and coming, a lot of consumers are going to WAIT to purchase, instead of decreasing that inventory (unless GM dumps a ton more cash on the hood). This is not good decision-making here.

    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/12/gm-to-debut-new-full-size-trucks-thursd- - ay/

    And in an interesting ironic twist ESPN just showed the Tundra commercial where they tow the Space Shuttle. :shades:
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Painting with a broad brush? He just set off a bomb in a paint factory! That comment was most-definitely uncalled-for!
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    The autobahn originally was built so Hitler could easily deploy tanks and military equipment.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2012
    Except the idea and some construction predated Hitler by a dozen years or so. And per Wiki, "the autobahns were not primarily intended as major infrastructure improvement of special value to the military as often stated because they were of no military value as all major military transports in Germany were done by train to save fuel."

    Next someone will say the US Interstates were designed to accommodate aircraft landings. :shades:

    In other German news, GM's Opel to end car production at German plant (Detroit News)
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    No, but Eisenhower did push the Interstate system to facilitate military transportation in case of conflict.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited December 2012
    Next someone will say the US Interstates were designed to accommodate aircraft landings.

    Yes, that claim has been made by some for decades.

    Problem with the claim is simple... It isn't true.

    http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/interstate/interstatemyths.htm#question5

    Same as the claim that Hitler built the autobahns for military transport.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_autobahns
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    No, but Eisenhower did push the Interstate system to facilitate military transportation in case of conflict.

    That would be the same millitary that planned to use trains and aircraft for transport, right? :shades:

    Eisenhower built the Interstates in order to make automobiles more useful and therefore increase sales. If they hadn't been built we just might have ended up with a more viable rail system. And fewer of these straight, boring roads (give me twisties any day).
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    edited December 2012
    I think the military in both Germany and the US saw the potential of using a national highway system as a defensive/offensive device, just not one of primary importance.

    One has to remember that, even under Eisenhower's administration, auto transportation was not the first choice of long distance travel. Train transportation was far more prevalent nationwide then than it is today. And, air travel was growing rapidly at the same time.

    Moving a battalion of tanks is far better suited to train transport than truck transport over long distances.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I bet the concrete guys in Kansas City were behind the whole scheme. :D

    Anyone got any GM news they want to talk about?
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