GM News, New Models and Market Share

busiris

I still believe historians are on our side...

I think that's obvious. Death camps & marches, eradication of the Jews, etc. pretty much makes it clear the Axis powers were bad folks.

busiris

Seeing as how a lot of those writing those books came from the same groups being oppressed by the dictatorships, they ARE winners...

How many of those books were written by [non-permissible content removed] party members, or other active participants in the Axis powers governments?

busiris

It wasn't a analogy.

Great Britain and Churchill's primary concern was winning the war without the loss of Britain's colonies in the Far East, India, etc.

Since England enjoyed global prominence solely from being a world power ("The sun never sets on the British Empire"), it was willing to do everything it could to minimize the loss of territory.

An island nation requires colonies to supply it with resources. Japan realized this, and went after European owned territories in the Far East so it could become the next Great Britain. It didn't work out too well for them, and Great Britain realized it couldn't keep colonies forever, either.

fintail

Holden and Australian Ford are closer to what Chevy and Ford were during the old days than their American counterparts today. The V8, the RWD car, and the car-based pickup never died down under. Whereas today, Vauxhalls are pretty much just Opels (and Chevy and USA Ford are an odd mismash).

fintail

I missed that - I am more surprised about the aging C than the new ATS, to be honest. Interesting - and some huge MSRPs there too.

robr2

Holden and Australian Ford are closer to what Chevy and Ford were during the old days than their American counterparts today. The V8, the RWD car, and the car-based pickup never died down under.

But those Commodores, Caprices, Falcons and Utes represent a small market segment today. Most of what they sell are Cruzes, Fiestas and Mondeos.

fintail

True, and lots of beige Civrollas sell there too. But, the traditional cars have retained enough demand to make them viable, or they wouldn't be offered. Seems to be a more diverse linep there (Europe has one too), but I guess that's not the only difference.

robr2

The interesting thing about the Aussie market is how small it really is - this year 1.1 million units but experts feel if it weren't for 0%, it would be about 750K. So the F150, Accord and Camry could just about supply their marketplace.

The Mazda 3 is the top seller - about 40K units this year. The Commodore is at about 28K. That volume would barely justify it's existence in the US market. The saving grace is export to the middle east and now to the US.

Seems to be a more diverse linep there...

They do offer some unique vehicles there but just like any market, it's what sells.

fintail

Looks like the population there is only ~22 million, so yeah, it is small, much less than California alone. What sells, indeed...but still, maybe people there aren't quite as beige as here - the US is the place that loves Lexus the most, for example. Oz probably a higher take rate on manuals and diesels, too.

I have some stats on German sales through October (I think), should get those when I am at home.

andres3

Looking into my Crystal ball, I don't know what the future holds for GM, however:

On one hand, I hope GM fails to teach the pro-bailout proponents a lesson.

On the other hand, I do hope GM succeeds and prospers so that there is more competition, and more competition usually means better cars and better prices for consumers (as long as those consumers don't have to subsidize the losers, and can buy the winners).

Here's to a Happy New Year for GM. Maybe the ATS can wake up other automakers that have been resting on their laurels.

circlew

Really, what has changed in any significant way, other than shedding a division or two?

And THAT is the $60 Billion Question if there ever was one regarding GM.

Answers?

Regards,
OW

circlew

One simply cannot expect Americans to do that work at Mexican wages.

Exactly. That's why GM, Ford and Chrysler are slowly moving off-shore.

Get it yet? :confuse:

Regards,
OW

circlew

If we want to talk about war stuff, the Germans have conquered the British automotive landscape without a shot being fired

GM could not be killed...even by themselves!

But the offs-shore crowd did a heck of a job despite GM being Number 1 after WWII. A lot to be proud of regarding GM as an All-American brand...for the die-hards, perhaps. :P

Regards,
OW

tlong

Remember what was going on only about 40 or maybe 50 years before that movie was made, in Japan.

Just think of what was happening in the '50s and '60s in the U.S.
So what's the point of that relative to automobiles, anyway?

Bringing it back to GM, nobody has still told me what GM was thinking if they truly believed the new Malibu would even be as good as the previous one. Not the product of a hungry company determined to survive and excel.

uplanderguy

Read the entire thread, tlong. Someone posted a link to a very funny scene from a parody/comedy about Americans being completely lazy. I merely posted that in the same movie, there was a scene where Japanese management refused to stop the line when a worker's hand got caught in machinery. It was OK to mention the first, but hooboy, the latter factual post about the movie was no-no-no!

And circlew, someone else here called you 'crazy' once, but if you honestly can't see what I was talking about, concerning the Beetle not available for sale in the U.S. for a quarter-century or more, compared to the Impala's and Camaro's downtime, which you've brought up before....you are simply incapable of complex thought.

tlong

So why is the newest Malibu so lame?

uplanderguy

Does it having less legroom than the previous car make the entire car "lame"? I know you've never sat in one yet driven one, but here is a post in the 'GM Fans' forum about someone who actually drove one (besides the score or so of automotive press out there):

#1199 of 1200 Test drove a new Malibu by roadburner Dec 10, 2012 (6:48 pm)
...to get a $50 Macy's gift card. While FWD mid-size family sedans are far from my cup of tea, it had a very nice interior, felt solid, and drove quite well. I would say that potential buyers in that segment should give it a hard look.

I think people who have no or little knowledge of cars are the ones who rely totally on the handful of automotive journalists, who have biases like all humans, to make their decisions for them. I make my own purchase decisions like strong-minded people do.

"Lame" to me is referring to Mexico as 'America', which absolutely no one else does, and wanting me to feel as bad about small Mexican farmers losing work because of NAFTA as people in my own hometown. I mean, I know you're from California, but......

busiris

While your at it, don't forget to put the cover sheet on your TPS report. Did you get the memo...?

(From the movie Office Space, my favorite corporate parody)

busiris

"...referring to Mexico as 'America', which absolutely no one else does..."

I know you don't like the idea of it, but you better start getting used to it, as more and more auto production moves south of the border. It's gonna happen, regardless. The die has been cast, so to speak.

Mexico is going to become the "new Canada" for domestic carmakers, albeit a significantly cheaper one to manufacture cars in...

uplanderguy

...and I will still refuse to buy a new car from there, for personal reasons. If you're OK with it, that's fine. I'm not telling anyone not to, just saying why I won't.

I am glad that GM moved production of the car that replaced the Aveo, from Korea to Michigan, and that production of the Camaro will be moved from Canada to Michigan. I think it's great, too, that Ford plans on moving Fusion production from Mexico to Michigan.

As I get older, it's more important to me to 'do the right thing'. Always. Not the easiest, not necessarily the cheapest thing, but the right thing. I believe in pulling one up by one's bootstraps and all that--I did that--but I've become more of a 'big picture' guy I think, about what is most important, than I was when I was younger.

tlong

I think people who have no or little knowledge of cars are the ones who rely totally on the handful of automotive journalists, who have biases like all humans, to make their decisions for them. I make my own purchase decisions like strong-minded people do.

The best measure of success is the market, and the market is underwhelmed. That's not automotive writers.

When Hyundai was down and out, they swung for the fences. When GM was down and out, they tried for a bunt.

tlong

"Lame" to me is referring to Mexico as 'America', which absolutely no one else does...

You're ignoring gagrice's comments that this is not the case.

uplanderguy

The best measure of success is the market, and the market is underwhelmed. That's not automotive writers.

So writers have no effect on the market? When most potential buyers don't know much of anything about cars?

uplanderguy

OK. You and gagrice. I'll have to take your word on that one.

uplanderguy

When Hyundai was down and out, they swung for the fences. When GM was down and out, they tried for a bunt.

Aren't you a believer in CR? They say in the current newsstand issue, that certain Hyundai models are of lower quality (reliability) than GM. What say you?

fintail

Speaking of Malibu, I was going through a pile of German magazines I brought home, and apparently the new style Malibu will be sold there. Surprisingly, the magazine didn't rip the car to shreds - just complaining about the lack of engine options, and apparently a lack of higher speed handling ability (or so I think, my German is not perfect). They like the high level equipment for the money, and don't think it is bad looking. It will be a "big and cheap" car there, but as here, that segment does have buyers.

And if Hyundai is going to be bragged about, then one has to admit that the chaebol received tremendous aid from their federal government, and the homeland itself has received tremendous aid from the American taxpayer. It is not a true self-made Horatio Alger rags to riches story. Just as no citizens of Peru or Nicaragua or Chile etc call themselves "American" :shades:

tlong

So writers have no effect on the market? When most potential buyers don't know much of anything about cars?

So let's see, writers are no good for evaluation of the car, and buyers are no good, either. It's really an outstanding vehicle, and even though others in its segment far outsell it, the new Malibu is really the best vehicle of all.

OK, well even if the buyers don't know much, they are the ones who will determine the cars success or failure. So GM had better start exciting more buyers, no?

tlong

Aren't you a believer in CR? They say in the current newsstand issue, that certain Hyundai models are of lower quality (reliability) than GM. What say you?

I say that those buyers who know nothing about cars have caused a great increase in Hyundai sales, while not the same for GM.

I will give the ATS big props for looking like mostly a grand slam. But GM still shouldn't be giving away the mainstream sedan market without a bigger fight than the new Malibu.

tlong

Just as no citizens of Peru or Nicaragua or Chile etc call themselves "American"

I'm sure you surveyed every single one. Quite an accomplishment. :P

fintail

When one resorts to semantics, there might not be much substance to defend :shades:

I haven't seen any real world context where the singular lone unqualified use of "American" doesn't mean USA.

tlong

When one resorts to semantics, there might not be much substance to defend

So then your word "no" is incorrect, just a "loose word". Got it.

Sort of like the imprecision of GM, lol. :P

tlong

"Toyota Motor Corp., moving to put years of legal problems behind it, has agreed to pay more than $1 billion to settle dozens of lawsuits relating to sudden acceleration."

Just to show that I'm happy to post negative Toyota content.

They deserve to pay, as does any company caught with lying or illegal behavior. Too bad most of the money will go to lawyers rather than litigants.

lemko

True. If not for the United States military, South Korea would've been overrun by Dear Leader a long time ago. Hyundai would've folded long before GM if not for the Korean government. Why is what is good for Korea's automakers bad for American ones?

I do like the taillights on the new Malibu, however.

uplanderguy

Magazines have fawned over Hyundai products of late, although the ownership experience is less than GM for those of you who buy into CR, and J.D. Powers, anyway.

Best-selling doesn't mean 'best', as I'm sure those who enjoyed their Fords and Mopars in the '50's-'70's would tell you, and for those who'd rather eat someplace besides McDonald's would tell you.

Country of origin (headquarters), place of assembly, N.A. content, styling, my history with the dealer, warranty, price, all mean far more to me in total than what somebody twenty-five years younger than me says in a car magazine. It's nice when they agree with me, but it doesn't direct my buying. Those who do, would worry me a bit as car owners and drivers.

obyone

It's a two way street. If not for Truman, MacArthur would have disposed of Dear Leader and the Communist Chinese in one swoop. Then where would Buick be without the Chinese market?

Political discussion similar to religious ones don't belong here. Hopefully the ones that carry that axe drop the subject cause it's really getting old.

uplanderguy

Opinions that differ from yours are OK. It's OK to choose not to respond.

I can't find a single, non-factual or even slightly offensive statement in lemko's post.

uplanderguy

That is an historic settlement, thank you for being big enough to mention it here.

busiris

Best car may not be the best selling one, but at the end of the day, the best selling one usually has the advantage of sticking around far longer.

Still, I understand your comment.

As for car rags, I was given a free subscription to Motor Trend a while back. IMO, when I scan through it (no, it's too much for me to actually read all the articles in detail, although I do occasionally find one of interest), I get the sense of a bunch of self-righteous egotistical critics attempting to wield some sort of power over the industry... Kind of like, "We don't really know how to make cars, but we can sure as heck criticize those that do, and we will...".

One can get some decent facts and figures from the magazine, but there's no way I would ever make a car buying decision based upon their suggestions and comments alone...

uplanderguy

I think all those writers have a sense of superiority, but MT is the bottom of the barrel, generally, in my memory. When I subscribed to C&D years back, I enjoyed their 'smart a**' writing style most of the time. I kind-of enjoy Jean Jennings (Lindamood) in 'Automobile' and wherever she was before that...a lady car writer who used to drive a taxi for a job, what's not to like?!

bpizzuti

Best-selling doesn't mean 'best',

And every time you quote GM sales numbers beating the competition we're going to beat you over the head with that. Than you anyway for admitting it. :shades:

fintail

How much is the NA Buick arm dependent on China? Lacrosse must be the volume seller, is it even offered there? The Chinese Buick nameplate doesn't seem to have a lot of product overlap with what is seen here. Only connection I can see is the Excelle (Verano), which is still a global platform IIRC. Not seeing that two way street. If China was still in its 1951 state, Buick would still exist.

I also don't know if bringing up the aid given to competition is really political. It is a legitimate topic.

Just like no doubt the massively subsidized defense given to Europe over the past 65 years (at the behest of the military-industrial lobby and arrogant military leadership who like to carry out an occupation in a holiday spot) has enabled them to use money for other functions, which has helped develop competitive industry. Not the only factor, but it is still a factor.

uplanderguy

Hey buddy, I bring it up only when someone (ahem) brings up what a 'lousy launch' the car had. 'Lousy launch' means weak sales out of the box. True for Malibu. Wasn't true for Camaro.

And incidentally, the Camaro has been a commercial and critical success. I still wouldn't buy one, because that niche isn't my type of car.

I know that you know that's what was said.

As they say about opinions...'everybody has one' (something like that! ), but when I read things I know to be factually incorrect here, it needs correcting, since as we all know when something ends up in print it automatically becomes fact to a lot of people!

stever

There's a documentary floating around basically saying if not for Truman and the "greatest generation", we could have left the fighting in Asia to Russia and China and the Cold War would have been a whole lot different.

But GM probably made a lot more money the way it went.

Cadillac ATS, Ram 1500 are Detroit Free Press Car and Truck of the Year 2013

bpizzuti

Ahh, but the concept itself applies globally.

After all, because GM doesn't sell as many Corvettes as they do Cruzes, does that mean the Cruze is more of a success?

Let's use a ridiculously extreme example. Is a Bugatti Veyron more successful than a Chevy Silverado? The Silverado sells more.

I go back to Mazda and Subaru a lot with this, because they're lower-volume "niche" manufacturers. I see their respective fanboys (FYI I'm a fan but not a "fanboy") wishing and hoping they'll "beat" Honda or Toyota or GM in sales of some model or another. That's stupid. They're not nearly as big, and Mazda is actually on record as not WANTING to get that big. Their vision is "success" is to serve their market well and make a good profit in doing so, not to sell more Mazda3s than Honda sells Civics, or sell more Foresters than GM sells Equinoxes.

GM, on the other hand (as well as Toyota and VW) has world domination on the brain, and they and their fanboys always wave around number of units sold, conveniently skipping whether they were sold profitably or not (and whether they were sold to fleets or not also).

I was just reading about the maker of the iconic Black Cabs they use in London having financial difficulties, they may go the way Checker went here. It's too bad, I could see the viability of a dedicated fleet-only make. You never saw Checker or London Taxi/LTI complaining about fleet sales dragging down resale value or impacting the brand's reputation.

busiris

Quote from the link:

"The system is sure to spawn imitators, as are the excellent voice-recognition and iPad-style controls of CUE, the Cadillac User Experience."

I agree that the ATS is a breakthrough in car design for GM, but I'm not so sure about its CUE system. From what I've read so far, its gotten far less than optimum reviews.

Then again, iDrive wasn't a hit for BMW when it first came out, either... But it did eventually catch on. Ergonomically speaking, I think having a tactile device controlling the car's interface (iDrive style) may end up winning the day over a touch-screen interface that requires additional effort/attention to locate exactly where to tap the screen, but that's just my opinion. It certainly seems to be a safer design to me...

bpizzuti

I think they're better off putting the controls on the wheel a la Ford. The problem with a bunch of buttons on the center console is that your hand is not on the wheel while you're working them.

The great part about some of the new systems is you can control audio, cruise, AND climate without removing your hands from the wheel. Voice control is nice too, but ideally you want people to keep their hands on the primary controls (in this case the steering wheel) as much as possible. Integrating climate control into the touch screen unit like Ford and Dodge are now doing (on the Dart, even MANUAL climate control can be controlled through the touchscreen) means you can put controls on the wheel too. I want to see much more of that.

On the other hand, the only way i want to see voice command setups is of Apple (Siri) or Nuance (Dragon/Vlingo) do it.

andres3

They say in the current newsstand issue, that certain Hyundai models are of lower quality (reliability) than GM. What say you?

I'd say to those Hyundai owners, stop being cheap, penny wise and pound foolish, and get the Honda's!

ateixeira

I'm sure lawyers will get $999,999,999 and the Saylor family will get $1 from that settlement.

Actually I'm not sure if the Saylor family ever settled with Bob Barker Baker Lexus. They did already settle with Toyota.

andres3

Part of that settlement was to pay off losses for "diminished value or reduced resale value."

I have a lot of big problems with that as:

1) Toyota has never guaranteed good resale value as far as I know.
2) Toyota doesn't control the used car market.
3) People chose to unload their Toyota's on their own free will with a fire sale.
4) If you honestly think the car is dangerous, why would you knowingly sell it to someone knowing it could kill them?

#4 is the biggest thing. How could a good honest person sell something to someone they think will end up killing them? Shouldn't they have kept it and let Toyota buy it back in the settlement? Or at the very least, had the car destroyed and just increased their claim a bit in the lawsuit.

I hope the secondary buyers file a lawsuit against the original owners someday. That would be justice.

bpizzuti

4) If you honestly think the car is dangerous, why would you knowingly sell it to someone knowing it could kill them?

#4 is the biggest thing. How could a good honest person sell something to someone they think will end up killing them?

You're assuming someone selling a used car is a good honest person. Think about that for a moment.