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GM News, New Models and Market Share

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    'Lousy launch' means weak sales out of the box

    GM really messed that up, though.

    At first only the Eco model was available, and it's a mild hybrid that simply isn't competitive in the hybrid arena, yet there was no significant price advantage either. All for an eAssist system imported from China. 3 strikes. :sick:

    You have to launch with your best foot forward, Chevy put up their worst.

    It's a shame, too, because reviews for the non-hybrid model are actually far more favorable.

    If anything, GM should have launched a performance model first, get the buzz going about how the 'bu is sportier/better than expected, then launch the volume models because that's what people end up buying.

    It's not a bad car at all, but they did botch the launch by focusing first on the weakest model in the lineup.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited December 2012
    What would be interesting would be to compare residuals for the Camry vs. Accord/Altima/Malibu/Fusion. Then and now.

    Edit: hosts - can we ask Car_Man to do that?

    For the same terms, say a 36 month lease, 12k miles per year.

    For today, and then for November 2009, prior to the Saylor accident.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    If people end up buying the "lame" models, or stripper unloaded models, rather than the sportier ones, then how come I hear average new car transaction prices are nearing $30,000!

    I was figuring people always buy the highest loaded-up trim. I know that's how dealers like to stock their lots full. I do know the 4 cylinder Accord outsells the V6, but man, people must be buying useless extended warranties, gap insurance, mechanical insurance, car alarms, and other dealer add-ons to be getting included in that average new car price of near 30K dollars!
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    $30k for which car? For the Malibu?

    I seriously doubt that.

    Quick unscientific check, fitzmall has 36 Malibus in stock, no haggle prices range from $21k to $28k, and only 3 out of those 36 break $26k.

    Considering not a single one hits $30k that's incredibly doubtful.

    Maybe $30k list with an average discount of $7,000. Maybe.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Just realized you meant average transaction for the overall market, never mind. :blush:

    Any whooo, seems the Malibu is stuck at the low end of the market. Most of those are 21-23k.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    That class action will go exactly nowhere if the EPA validates Ford's numbers. Because that absolves Ford from any liability regarding the numbers: they used the EPA's methods and the EPA verified the numbers. That's different from Hyundai, where the EPA found that Hyundai screwed up the testing "accidentally." :shades:

    Anyway, good luck holding the EPA liable for anything. :shades:
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    edited December 2012
    Opinions that differ from yours are OK. It's OK to choose not to respond.

    I can't find a single, non-factual or even slightly offensive statement in lemko's post.


    You are correct and that's why lemko didn't respond. I was commenting about you to lemko so I'm glad you responded to my post. :P

    Two out of three vehicles that I own are made by GM. I test drove an Acadia against a CX-7 and a CX-9 numerous times before settling on the Acadia. The Mazda products simply had too much road noise.

    What's funny is that circlew had issues with his 2003 Yukon Denali. So much so that he is one of the most anti-GM posters I've ever seen. I owned a 2002 Yukon Denali and other than one wheel sensor failing under the warranty period the vehicle was absolutely flawless except for the 12 mpg that is. So I end up with an Acadia as a replacement and he ends up with a Mazda. I don't know how to explain his OCB.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I dunno, I wouldn't be surprised to see Ford's magic 47mpg number revised downward. People are getting high 30s, not even close. The discrepancy is actually much greater than Hyundai's if you compare.

    Of course Ford's a domestic brand so they do have home field advantage.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    It's more the fact that the current EPA treadmill tests are unreasonably favorable for hybrid drivetrains versus real-world. Kind of an extreme example of designing for the test.
  • obyoneobyone Member Posts: 7,841
    How much is the NA Buick arm dependent on China? Lacrosse must be the volume seller, is it even offered there? The Chinese Buick nameplate doesn't seem to have a lot of product overlap with what is seen here. Only connection I can see is the Excelle (Verano), which is still a global platform IIRC. Not seeing that two way street. If China was still in its 1951 state, Buick would still exist.

    If Truman had allowed MacArthur to wipe out the Communist Chinese I'm sure you will agree that it would be an entirely different market one that Buick might find similar to the US where they are far from successful.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited December 2012
    They'd be selling to royalty instead of embezzling officials and politically connected "businessmen". 6 of one, half dozen of the other :shades:

    I don't know how much GM actually gains from the success of Buick in China, anyway, especially when costs are weighed in - costs that the cookie cutter MBA set likes to ignore. Opening up that market comes at a price, much of which hasn't been paid yet.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited December 2012
    It irritates you so much that I've posted why I choose the cars I do...because it's different from your opinion.

    Sometimes, those who think they are the most open-minded, are the most narrow-minded. I discovered that on my own at about age 23 or 24.

    You also seemed to insist once that I shouldn't have the feelings I do since I hadn't ever been to see the USS Arizona Memorial. Like that would be a necessity (although I would love to see it).

    There is room for all opinions.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited December 2012
    For all I hear about Buick in China, our Chinese friend and student who is spending a month with us, has never heard of Buick.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    I've spent a lot of time in Vancouver BC, which has a gigantic Chinese population. I've seen numerous older people that I would guess are of Chinese heritage in Buicks. Maybe it's a regional thing. The brand is successful there, which is amusing given that the popularity stems from the brand being favored by pre-revolutionary royals.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    A roommate from college I still keep in touch with was Chinese American. His parents were from the old country. He says that many Chinese here in the US he knew liked Buick long before it started it's Chinese operations. Those that spend the bucks tend to like German makes. They don't like Japanese cars. At least that's his take on it (but then ironically, he drives a Toyota). So much for trying to correlate demographics!
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    A roommate from college I still keep in touch with was Chinese American. His parents were from the old country.

    I had a Korean and Chinese roommates in college that were both born in their native countries and immigrated to the US with their parents as little kids. Neither liked Japanese cars and at the time, both drove Chevys.
  • lemkolemko Member Posts: 15,261
    Weren't the ubiquitous black London taxis made by Austin back in the day? I heard recent units used Nissan drivetrains.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    At one time yes. Today they are built by Manganese Bronze Holdings with an engine made by VM Motori in Italy. Manganese went into "administration" (bankruptcy) earlier this year. Geeley already holds a 20% stake.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    To them they're different. If I moved overseas I would try to get some thing not available here.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    But each plaintiff would get $60.

    God Bless America!

    :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    The root of any Chinese affinity for Buick goes back long before these probably shortsighted joint ventures where short term profits are traded for technology transfers.

    I had a Taiwanese friend when I was in school. He had an Accord - saw anything more expensive as being too showy. A lot of those who buy their way in and settle in my area love to be showy. I think the anti-Japanese thing might be some media hype.
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    I wonder how much $$$ per car for the next year the settlement costs customers of Toyota, since we all know it just gets tacked on to the price.

    Toyota's customers have bad drivers that don't know to shift into neutral when Unintended acceleration happens for the higher prices of todays automobiles (at least Toyota's)
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    Funny thing is that I think the decline in resale had little to do with alleged UA. I own an 09 Camry and I think the 07-11 Camry just doesn't have the quality in it that Toyota customers expect. There have been a lot of recalls and issues from trannies to water pumps that you just don't expect in a Camry. As for the settlement, Wall Street is happy because the media amount is probably overstated. Most of the vehicles already had a brake override installed as part of the recalls. The lawyers are smiling of course.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Toyota shares are up 2.6% on the news.

    Wonder how much of that 200 Million will go towards new Lexus?
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >something that rarely if ever happened at the old Greenville plant.

    Which Greenville? Ohio?

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    > I had to warn my wife about the Jetta not having

    Have any of the windows fallen into the doors yet on the Jetta? Friend bought one years ago and teh check engine light stayed on all the time despite repeated returns to the selling dealer and the windows dropped into the doors, one-by-one.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    Pennsylvania.

    No problems with Jetta windows so far. ;)
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I had a friend with a '76 AMC Hornet wagon, and one of the back windows came loose and would fall down into the door.

    How's the back seat legroom in that Jetta compare to your Malibu?
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I also heard Geely doesn't want a bigger stake. Which is kind of scary.

    Then again, weren't they pretty heavily regulated. I know there were even rules about the wheelbase and turning circle on those cabs....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    At one point VW dealers didn't have enough ignition coils to replace all the faulty ones.

    A friend had a Passat 1.8T that spent so much time in the shop, I thought she owned the Ford Five Hundred loaner they kept giving her.

    The 2 VW family also ditched their Touareg and drive an Ody and a Venza now.
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    And circlew, someone else here called you 'crazy' once, but if you honestly can't see what I was talking about, concerning the Beetle not available for sale in the U.S. for a quarter-century or more, compared to the Impala's and Camaro's downtime, which you've brought up before....you are simply incapable of complex thought.

    Hmm...that coming from someone who continues buying bottom-basement Chevy's. I am honored!

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    Aren't you a believer in CR? They say in the current newsstand issue, that certain Hyundai models are of lower quality (reliability) than GM. What say you?


    Aren't you a believer in market trends? Malibu sales were way ahead of Sonata. Now they are far below. What happened?

    Regards,
    OW
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    It is not a true self-made Horatio Alger rags to riches story.

    But they sure took a lick'in to GM, Ford and Chrysler over in this neck of the woods. Perhaps they got auto religion from their bailout.

    Regards,
    OW
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    I also heard Geely doesn't want a bigger stake. Which is kind of scary.

    Probably 2 reasons:
    1 - they might be able to pick up the entire company for a song in bankruptcy
    2 - Nissan has had their NV200 (the same one that NYC approved) for use a black cab in London. It gets much better fuel economy and more importantly emits 50% fewer emissions than the current black cab and meets the other specs required including the 25' turning radius.

    The radius is based on being able to turn around in the front drive of the Savoy in London without having to back up.
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    A friend had a Passat 1.8T that spent so much time in the shop, I thought she owned the Ford Five Hundred loaner they kept giving her.

    I counter your focus group of 1 with my own: my 2005 1.8T Passat has 101K without any major mechanical issues.
  • busirisbusiris Member Posts: 3,490
    Food for thought...

    Really, the only significance of anecdotal evidence and individual experience in the overall picture is the influence that particular experience or event has upon the individual involved... In this case, whether the car was a lemon or an iron horse, and whether or not that experience would incline that individual to buy or avoid the same Nike/model car in a future purchase.

    Any other use is just an attempt to add weight to a point one is making.

    You had a good experience... Someone else has a bad experience. If we're talking about a limited production run of 25-50 cars, that might be significant. When sales are in the 100's of thousands, not so much...
  • andres3andres3 Member Posts: 13,934
    My Audi mechanic mentioned that the window regulators are known to fail like clockwork on their 5th birthday (though not all of them, 3 of 4 are still fine originals in my case).

    A minor issue, in the grand scheme of things. My Dodge Neon never had a window regulator failure, but that was because it had crank windows. If they were power, I'm positive the failure rate would be higher and worse than any VW/Audi.
    '18 Porsche Macan Turbo, '16 Audi TTS, Wife's '19 VW Tiguan SEL 4-Motion
  • ClairesClaires Member Posts: 1,219
    edited December 2012
    Interesting question. Since we just ended WW2 and are starting to get back onto the topic of GM News, New Models and Market Share, though, it would be better to ask in the Camry Leasing forum, or in the Toyota on the mend? topic, where the whole Toyota Settlement thread really belongs.

    ClaireS, Host
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  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    Claire, the Toyota settlement post is relative here as if you've scanned this thread long enough, you'll know that all it is is about bashing GM at all costs, whether one's posts are factual or not. Toyota products, among others, are posted here when it's a positive thing; it's important to relate what GM's competition's negatives are as well IMHO.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited December 2012
    Aren't you a believer in CR? They say in the current newsstand issue, that certain Hyundai models are of lower quality (reliability) than GM. What say you?


    Aren't you a believer in market trends? Malibu sales were way ahead of Sonata. Now they are far below. What happened?


    The Malibu has had a bad launch and a handful of auto writers didn't like it much. I was the first person I'm aware of to quote here or other places online, about the rear legroom reduction. Now, back to my original question.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • circlewcirclew Member Posts: 8,666
    edited December 2012
    Now, back to my original question.

    Certain Hyundai models are on the Top Ten Researched Cars or 2012 list. Again, the Sonata outsells the Maluibu and the Impala. Since not a single GM is on the list, you must be right about the Foreign bias. :blush:

    Top 10 most researched new and used cars for 2012

    Since the Hyundai brand is still growing here in America, I assume their overall quality, warranty and owner satisfaction all are ahead of GM.

    2002 Hyundai Sales = 375,119
    2012 YTD November Sales = 643,572

    GM lost market share during that period. CR be damned!

    Regards,
    OW
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited December 2012
    "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"

    You left out "J.D. Edwards be damned too". But you always leave out pertinent stuff.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    Andre somewhere here asked me about rear-seat legroom in the Jetta.

    I just went out and looked at it in the garage. The rear-seat legroom behind my wife's driver-seat position looks just fine. I'd say it looks like a little less than in our '11 Malibu, but fine.

    I know you disagree Andre, and I know you're a lot taller than me, but I think our '11 Malibu has cavernous rear-seat legroom...at least behind where my wife and I set the seats. When the '08 was introduced, I swear I remember a writer calling the rear seat "limo-like". The car isn't wide inside, but since primarily only four sit in it, that doesn't bother me very much.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    I think the 2008-2012 Malibu is probably fine, legroom-wise, for most people. My biggest issue with it is that the hollowed-out area in the seatback is too low for me. My knees end up hitting the hard plastic of the seatback, just above that hollowed out area. Here's a pic, for reference, which shows the hollowed out area, with a kid in the back seat, who fits just fine...
    image

    If I put the front seat back to where I'm comfortable, I can't fit in the back seat. But, someone of more average height probably could. And, the front seat really wouldn't have to be moved up very far for me to be able to fit in the back.

    However, the 2013 Malibu took it to an extreme. When I put the seat back to where I'm comfortable, I don't think anybody could fit behind me. And, for even an average-sized adult to fit in the back, I think you'd have to move the seat so far forward that the driver's position would be severely compromised.
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited December 2012
    I'd say both those front seats are farther back than we keep ours.

    BTW, I just called the body shop as I was asked to provide the claim number the other day and I just remembered to do so. The young lady at the body shop, very friendly and who remembered me from when my Lark rolled down the driveway into our six-week old Cobalt a few years back, is named Tabitha. I asked her about 'Bewitched' and she said her sister's name is Sabrina!

    In that photo you provided, one can see the depth of the cutout for the rear door. That's one thing I think adds an expensive look to that era Malibu...long rear doors, like other (but pricy) cars.

    When I first looked at a '13 Malibu in my dealer's showroom nearly a year ago, a glance in the rear seat made me take notice of the reduction in legroom back there, right away (as I've said, I posted it here before I started seeing it be written about quite a bit...am I a 'trail blazer'? (bad pun)). Much later I climbed in a '13 and set the front seat to where I'd sit (my wife moves it up even a bit further), and I got in the back and I was fine...my knees didn't touch the seat back. But the difference was visibly noticeable to me.

    I do like the new Malibu's dash, door panels, and rear-seat center armrest better than the interior in ours. Taillights look better, obviously.
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Dude, it's never a wise move to start arguing with a forum admin...
  • uplanderguyuplanderguy Member Posts: 16,862
    edited December 2012
    I'm a free speech advocate, although of course I realize that we are all guests of Edmunds'.

    I think if you re-read the post, you'd come away with a different term than "argue".
    2024 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray 2LT; 2019 Chevrolet Equinox LT; 2015 Chevrolet Cruze LS
  • dieselonedieselone Member Posts: 5,729
    My Audi mechanic mentioned that the window regulators are known to fail like clockwork on their 5th birthday (though not all of them, 3 of 4 are still fine originals in my case).

    They must share a supplier with Ford;) I've had window regulator issues with the drivers window on my '07 Expedition twice. It still sounds like it could break anytime, but with domestic vehicles I'm accustom to tolerating things which sound like they are on the verge of failing.
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