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Dad got a 200C with the new Pentastar engine and I can say first hand it is a huge improvement.
I think part of the issue is that that's the way some foreign economies work. There's a tight knit link between government and "private" companies. So you might call that an unfair advantage, but the US has other advantages such as more infrastructure, more experience, a much larger economy, a much deeper supplier base.
That NOT how the US "does it" - the government DOES NOT bail out companies as a regular part of our "capitalism". And by doing that for GM, they compromised Ford in a way that the market would not have - Ford now competes with GM for business because a lot of GM would be GONE that is still here. And that hurts Ford's market, it means Ford isn't employing as many people as they would have been if they had a bunch of the business that the dead or near-dead GM would have lost. The market was DISTORTED by bailing out GM, and incompentency and failure was REWARDED.
I'm sure if GM was shopping for a new plant location there would be plenty of state governments dangling offers in front of them. The states don't care which company it is, they just like having more jobs and a boost to the local economy and tax rolls.
Funny you'd mention your Dad's 200C. I was just looking at those on the website of the dealer where I got my Ram. They have a pretty blue 2013 200C Limited sedan with the 3.6 V-6, leather, sunroof, nav, etc, listed for $20,168*
Of course, there's that pesky asterisk, so it won't be quite *that* cheap.
My Ram, with that little asterisk by its $17,500 price, ended up bumping everything to around $20,750 out the door. So, I'd guess said 200C might come in around $23-23.5K OTD?
Personally, I think the Malibu would be a better car overall. But, that price is tempting!
I bought a Kia not to punish GM (they punish themselves based on their past history and product offerings) (and the warranty is far more coverage than GM, btw)...because it's a better car than GM is producing condidering style, options and performance for the money.
Based on the last 3 months, Optima alone is outselling the Malibu by a wide margin. Seems CR ratings are rather elementary in this case, my Dear Watson! We already have seen Chevy Malibu is being buried by the other mid-sizers in 2012 with respect to sales. Who is punishing who?
Regards,
OW
And then we let the others in unimpeded by any compensatory measures, and scream when our own companies need similar help. The South Korean government, aided directly and indirectly for so many years by the American taxpayer no less, rewarded incompetency in the old Hyunkia empire. That's what happened.
You're joking, right?
Apparently not in my view, but yes in your view. :P
American economic history of the past 40 years has a deep foundation of corporate welfare,
Give me some specific examples so I can understand exactly what you are talking about.
just as economic history of the past 30 years has a history of coddling self-titled "job creators", while the jobs are still unseen.
No arguments there. Weren't the Bush tax cuts supposed to create jobs? How did 10 years of that turn out?
The South Korean government, aided directly and indirectly for so many years by the American taxpayer no less, rewarded incompetency in the old Hyunkia empire.
No arguments about the US aiding Korea, either. But at least HyunKia reacted by producing CLEARLY superior vehicles to their previous offerings, right? So did the Korean government do something more correctly, or is GM just a lot bigger basket case than HyunKia?
The worst thing about "job creation" is that the current idiots are doing no better, just continuing the same lie. It's just another form of welfare.
Of course modern HyunKia cars are superior to their awful offerings of 20-25 years ago. Couldn't be worse! GM was certainly a bigger basket case than HyunKia - simply by being a larger organization, with a much older and more entrenched 50 layer useless management culture that screams at the idea of change, and having been nosediving as long as HyunKia had existed. It's easier to renovate a 1000 sq ft bungalow than to restore a 15000 sq ft castle.
I do believe the Hyundai failure was more due to Hyundai Construction and Engineering and the other Hyundai divisions than it was Hyundai Auto.
IMO it's hard to compare the Hyundai situation to GM as they were really different companies. Hyundai was huge collection of companies in a wide range of industries.
But in the end a bail out is a bail out.
Kia definitely would have been gone if not For Hyundai Auto acquiring them in the late 90's.
No question, GM sealed it's own fate prior to you and I being born.
The fact that they aren't is telling. That means they are not expanding. They either have just enough, or too much capacity. I know which I'd bet on.
I was born in '70, so I fully remember crappy Hyundai cars.
Ironically, my dad bought my sister a new '92 Hyundai Scoupe which actually wasmore reliable than his current '09 Accord. Somehow that '92 SCoupe lasted my sister all through high school and college w/o any major problems. The trans failed at 120k miles and that was it. Car wasn't worth fixing. I towed to the junk yard. I don't know if my dad's Accord will make it to 120k miles. It already had an engine tear down at 80k and looks like it may need another at 95k.
Granted I wouldn't want to be driving a '92 Hyundai regardless of how reliable.
My original point was from what I've read, the Hyundai Auto division was more of a victim in the Hyundai failure than the cause, regardless of how bad the cars were.
I was already harrassing salesmen at Dart Chevrolet-Cadillac and Hazlett Pontiac at that time (on my bicycle!).
Geez, seems like yesterday I was the youngest guy at work. Now, almost everybody's younger than me, and there's not a damn thing I can do about that!
I still believe GM has a pretty good repeat ownership percentage, but I can't remember where I've read it. Better than the casual reader of this forum would imply.
Which is why their turnaround is so notable. Going from worse than GM to better than GM is a much bigger leap than old GM > new slightly better GM. It doesn't seem as if GM really cares enough. Like a spoiled teenage kid whose parents keep making it too easy for them. Just not enough incentive to really change.
I wasn't referring to GM products, but to the corporate structure. Size and volume mean little if you can't support it. Like Fintail said, GM's decline started long ago. Though on the outside it may not have been visible in the beginning, but cracks in the foundation were forming.
US Auto Sales
Note that GM is LOOSING market share YoY 2011/2012:
19.7% in 2011
17.9% in 2012
What is going on?
Regards,
OW
Bad GM press, some factual, lots not--such as on here--surely aren't helping. As anyone who's had an introduction to marketing class, reality lags perception by....years.
Ford has done way worse in recalls this year, Toyota had a billion-dollar settlement, some 'sacred cows' of this board have performed worse, reliability-wise, than similar GM's...it'll take a while.
What's the repeat-ownership percentage of GM versus, say, Ford and Chrysler, do you know?
Since we were talking about schools earlier...it's 'losing', not 'loosing'.
What do you attribute the Fusion's free fall to, November to November?
The 200 is in a tougher class. That price is tempting but the 200 is bit dated, and it is only a facelift of the old Sebring.
Price is tempting. That's a better car than a Camry LE 4 banger for the same money. I still think I'd spend more and get something else, maybe a Fusion or Accord. Like you I prefer the previous Malibu (sis' company car).
Here you go, Teach'!
Also among the top five automakers in terms of garnering repeat business in Experian’s survey are General Motors (46.2 percent), Ford Motor Co. (46.0 percent), Hyundai Motor Group (45.3 percent) and Honda Motor Company (43.1 percent).
BTW loosing market share vs. the entire market means what in your world?
Regards,
OW
Recalls. But GM has more recalls overall.
The Ford brand has had 92 recalls since 2009, substantially higher than the next highest brands — Chevrolet, at 70, and Toyota, at 68, a search of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration database reveals. Of course, such a search doesn't take into account the severity of individual recalls or that the Ford nameplate is part of the larger Ford Motor. When recalls in its various divisions are added up, General Motors outpaces Ford on recalls overall.
Any other questions?
Regards,
OW
I don't care for the looks of the Fusion, but it sounds like it's got more legroom in the back, important in this class.
Also, weren't 100% of 2012 Fusions from Mexico (as opposed to a second plant).
There is something kind of polarizing about the looks of the Fusion. When they first started showing pictures, I liked it because it sort of reminded me of the old 1957-59 Chrysler 300 Letter Series cars, just a bit...although I know Ford wants you to think of the Aston Martin.
But, the one time i saw one on the street, in person, it just left me a bit cold. But, if I was car shopping in that segment, I wouldn't rule it out.
Flat Rock is being renovated for the Fusion. According to one article, production will begin in June 2013.
Ford clearly has had a bunch of recalls on important launches, and in the past six months.
I don't think it's a double standard.
I believe many, like me, believe the big 3 automakers to be highly incompetent, wildly highly criminally negligent, and therefore, very unworthy of our tax dollars in subsidies.
berri, there's a methodical, balanced answer for you.
Agreed about GM's lack of good leadership. But as far as taking time, how long do you watch the ship take on water before deciding something urgent ought to be done? Reminds me of the Costa Concordia.
Inventory, plain and simple.
Ford currently has 16,785 2013 fusions including hybrid models on dealer lots vs 54,463 2013 Malibus.
To be fair, it's not just the horrible product and reliability that creates a segment of the population to be strongly anti-bailout, but it is also poor customer service.
A bad manufacturer and bad dealer can combine to make a terrible car 10 times worse, while a good company and dealership could make a lousy car tolerable.
From what I've seen, the Big 3 fail on all counts.
That's because it didn't sell well enough to make the top 20. The Malibu's sales were 10,227 for November which is basically flat vs. November 2011.
13k Malibus sold in December last year.
Just based upon the Honda owners I've known over the years, I would have thought their retention rate would have been higher.
I would call all 5 basically even, as I'm sure the survey probably has a +- error factor of at least 2%.
Say you need a pickup, certain brands will lose a customer no matter how happy they were.
Regardless, GM has lost market share despite the retention rate.
Regards,
OW
I don't have any idea of the number of Pre-bailout GM buyers that would choose not to buy GM again because of it. Could range from negligible to significant, but I would lean towards the lesser.
In my area, the "I buy X brand, I always have and always will" are rapidly disappearing. Younger buyers are far more open to other brands than 30-40 years ago.
But be fair, you could have said that about Hyunkia a decade ago. Just remember words like Hyundai Excel! Wagoner and his wagon train are gone. I start the time clock at the BK. However, you're right in that we need to start seeing some action in the near future or it will become difficult to turn around. I get very concerned when I see blogs on pretty new Acadia's that reflect the same drive train issues you were hearing about in 2007 models. Strikes me that some executives may still be lacking accountability.
I think that's also true with over 50 buyers these days and they're the ones who tend to have the most disposable cash to purchase nicer new cars. From a car buyers perspective, there is just a lot of good product out there to choose from these days. Personally, I'm retired and haven't had buyer loyalty to brand names for many, many years. Once you are working, you quickly learn that brand names are ever changing and evolving products.
I've been retired for right at 15 years. Like you, my loyalty goes to the brand that has the best combination of what I'm looking for at the time I'm buying, and that varies depending upon my station in life when I'm buying. I don't lead a static life, so my purchases had evolved over the years to meet my more dynamic requirements and specifications that I'm searching for at the time of my next purchase.
In addition, younger buyers have been exposed to the supply market quite differently than we were over the years, and I suspect they don't have anywhere the brand loyalty I experienced in my much younger days, especially as it relates to car buying...
We're what, 4 years post BK? And the new Malibu vs. the previous one...well, I'd say they aren't feeling motivated enough. That's not a niche segment.
So the Malibu is flat from one year ago, but the Fusion is down 24%?
They are building in one plant, exactly as last year.
I think they are slowing production down to avoid yet another recall. Merely a guess.
Again, even the new Malibu in non-Eco form has been available only about the same time, or maybe slightly longer, than the new Fusion.
Ford does seem to have control of Fusion inventories better, but as I said, is it at least partly because of the recalls? They've had launch-quality issues with the Fusion and Escape.
I tend to not be a mainstream guy in most anything...where I like to vacation, live, what car I buy, what movies and music I like-- but that's probably obvious from this board and in my choice of a hobby car, also.
People here keep sayin it is about profit not just volume.