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(Message posted in Lincoln LS forum)
Hi everyone im kinda new to this whole car buying thing so I was hoping to get you opinions on some cars that I was thinking about buying. I'm 20 and still doing my undergraduate and I need a car to commute between school and my work (only highway) and I was doing som research about cars here at Edmunds. I came down to three choices 03 Linc. LS, 03 Jag. S-type, and 02 Lex. GS430. I'm looking for something used around 25K before taxes and fees and those 3 have my interest. My old car was a 95 Town Car (which I love very much but gas prices are killer). Since I dont have much time between school and work I wanted a car that wont need much trips to the shop and is generally low maintance. Gas mileage is important to me also and I need to use this care for at least another 6-10 yrs (tuition rates are up). I also need fold down rear seats (gotta move hings between dorm and home and a navigation system). I was wondering the opinion of the all members here that are willing to help me with this decision (my family and gf are going crazy listening to me talk about these things). I'm also open to new suggestions if anyone has them.
I got a used 2002 Jag S-Type, with 28,000 miles, and now it's got 35,000 miles, the light bulbs went out twice, and you do have to pull the gearshift a bit harder (but not really that bad) on hills, everything else seems fine and I love the car so much. Engine is very smooth, the tread on the tires seem good, and I still have a lot of brake pads left.
According to German Automobile Association, Jaguar's reliability is far superior than Mercedes (well, everyone is, Mercedes was the 2nd to the last). If you go to the Mercedes forum here, you will for sure see a lot of people complaining about its reliability as well. I think it's important to note, most people that suffer the most problems are also more vocal, I am a very satisfied owner, and I love my S-Type a lot, but even then, I only reply once in a while to give my testimony.
Just my opinion.
I find your situation a bit difficult to fully comprehend.
Several points:
I can certainly believe that a blown engine at 29,000 miles is frustrating. In any car.
And yet, the 2001 Jag warrantee was for 4 years (as I recall, or 50,000 miles, whichever comes first). Not 5 years. Or 6. Or 7. I believe that there are extended warrantees available, if the added insurance / peace of mind is worth it.
Are you suggesting that this 4 year limit on a Jag warrantee is merely a suggestion? And if a major issue surfaces beyond that limit, Jaguar should just fix it for you, when they have no legal requirement to do so?
You do not have $13,000 to spend on fixing the 2001 Jag, yet you were a few months away from buying a new 2006 Jag? (Setting aside the fact that when I was 21 & in college, I could barely afford an 8 year old VW, let alone anything even approaching my “Dream Car”.) How exactly can that be? Trading in a 2001 on a 2006 would likely have required a good sized bunch of cash?
I mean no disrespect and I do not mean to be condescending here, but if you cannot afford a major repair on the 2001 S-Type, how could you afford to purchase a 2006?
I am a Jaguar Fan, and nearly purchased an S-Type R 6 months ago. I have rented 4 or 5 S-Types and XJs over the years. And I could likely “afford” one, by making a few Lifestyle Changes. But I certainly cannot afford the risk of having such a complex & expensive (to buy & to repair) car as these Jags without a warrantee. With the labor rates charged for diagnosis as well as parts and labor to repair or replace problems, it seems the possible out-of-pocket expense would certainly hit my budget very hard, indeed. (I did own both a 2000 and a 2003 Lincoln LS - brother under the skin to the S-Type Jag – and traded each before the warrantee expired.)
I wish I could offer real assistance, but I see no recourse for you. If they were refusing repair on a vehicle still covered under warrantee, perhaps there would be legal recourse available to you. Here, ‘out of warrantee’ means that I don’t see where Jaguar or your dealer could be under any obligation to do anything.
The dealer, if you have a long standing sales and service relationship – and if they value you as a current and potential future customer, might lobby on your behalf to Jaguar USA. But again, I see no other reason for them to take any action. Certainly no reason for them to offer to perform thousands of dollars worth of work that Jaguar is not obligated to reimburse the dealer for.
Perhaps I am missing something here . .
Good luck!
- Ray
Still hoping to buy my Dream Car – someday . .
Now as for buying a new 2006, I don't see where you don't realize why I won't and can't pay 13,000 for a new engine but would buy a new '06. Well it doesn't take a finance major, but lets figure this out. First off, I don't have 13,000 cash, that would take me using tuition money. But I purchased my Jaguar S-type 4.0 at say "x" dollars and when I bought it I put very little down, so lets say my monthly payment was "y." And a new Jaguar S-type is still "x" just like a new one was when I bought mine, and on top of that interest rates are lower now, so right off the bat I am at the same car payment or even lower. On top off that assuming when my Jaguar still ran, I have say $15,000 in equity in it. So subtract $15,000 from lets say a new '06 is $50,000 thats $35,000. So regardless of financing $50,000 in 2001 or financing $50,000 in 2005 payments are the same, But now with my trade in and $15,000 in equity I am only financing say $35,000. So I will not have to pay a lump sum or put down more cash, and in fact my payments will be 20-30% less than what I am paying now since I will be financing for an additional 48 months and will have a car with equity to put down. If you need any other financial tips I am happy to help you out. Maybe you could afford that dream car, pay a car off, gain equity, and then you can move up a class in vehicles. It's the american way.
I keep cars forever, but was able to get an AWA on my hydraulic cooling fan (on a Lincoln LS, not a Jag, but they're very similar) which failed shortly after the warranty ran out. The dealer made it quite clear that he wasn't interested in submitting the thing unless there was follow-on business to make it worthwhile. I discussed it with him carefully, and got more than half of it paid for. What kind of relationship do you have with your dealer? Have you discussed splitting it, or do you want/demand the whole enchilada?
If you want to blow off the dealer (which I tend toward on a regular basis), you've got to accept the downside. If you run to him every time the ashtray needs to be emptied & pay accordingly, he'll pony up the paperwork hassle involved in replacing an engine. If you're like me and only show up when major things are broken. . .
That said, I'm still intrigued by the numbers involved in paying for the '06 S type. You use X's & Y's freely, as do most of us in the math world (I'm an engineer), but it might make sense to put in real numbers. I'm thinking it wouldn't take too many of those payments for the new car to pay off the repair on the old one -- then you go for the '07 (or '08), plus which your trade-in has a new engine. Plus which, the value of a used S type, even with an engine that works, isn't anything to write home about.
Maybe I'm missing something.
Certainly too bad about the engine.
I agree. You (and most other people) should avoid any future Jaguar involvement.
One hopes the tone that comes through in your posts isn't part of the reason the dealer isn't willing to work with you.
Good luck.
No offense intended.
My personal philosophy is to not own any vehicle beyond a manufacturer’s warrantee period. Even relatively inexpensive cars today can be prohibitively (even breathtakingly) expensive to diagnose (at shop rates) and repair. The electronics as well as the tight working quarters conspire to require extensive dis-assembly to even reach many parts under / behind the dashboard. And while a 4 or 5 year old Jag is worth MUCH less than a new one, replacing a motor (or trans. or rear diff., etc.) with new parts likely costs the dealer and / or Jag much the same as replacing those components on an equivalent new car. Perhaps even more, as many years may freeze mounting bolts, etc.
I choose not to buy extended warrantees on appliances or electronics, where my ‘exposure’ is typically limited to a few hundred to a couple thousand dollars. But that's just me. YMMV.
You are convinced that this is Jaguar’s problem – and thus they should fix it. Yet I see you say more than once that the Jag dealer cannot tell what caused the problem.
Although you state that you have had all maintenance performed (and I have no reason to dispute this) Jaguar may have no way (short of tearing apart the motor) to tell what caused this catastrophic failure.
In Jag’s view, I suppose they may believe it to be possible that the car was mechanically abused. Since they say they do not know what happened or what caused it to happen.
Assuming that you are confident that they will find no signs of abuse, perhaps one course of action would be to suggest that they (dealer and Jag) agree to pay two thirds or three quarters (as best you can negotiate) of the (estimated) $13,000 cost, if they will tear it down and if they find the failure is a result of a manufacturer defect. And you will pay that higher portion (or all of it) if they do find evidence of abuse – however that is to be defined and decided. (Perhaps by a disinterested / independent third party?)
Just my 2,000 cents worth . .
- Ray
FWIW: MBA – with high honors . .
A somewhat comparable Caddy Northstar V8 is available as a crate motor for something like $4,500 at:
http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/120/GM-Performance-Parts-Crate-Engines.htm
(Not that you could slip that motor in, of course, much as I’d like to drive such a “conversion” . .)
I’d expect that a complete, new Jag V8 (installed) would (or should) be way less than $13K. And a used Jag motor from a wreck ought to be even less $$s.
Again – I sincerely wish you good luck.
- Ray
Wondering what 320 / 310 HP / TQ would do for that S-Type . .
No one attacked you here - I think maybe you might have read a bit too much into some things that were asked. That can happen, and is especially easy to fall into when one is mad at a situation. I know the folks here understand that and no one is upset with you. As I say, everyone genuinely wants to be helpful.
And you know what? If you would break your message into paragraphs with a blank line in between them, they would be easier to read and thus easier to follow. :-)
Let us know how it goes - good luck.
If I were you, I would try to negotiate with the dealer to see if you can split the cost, if not, since the car is paid for, I would try to fix it and then sell it (get a loan to fix, sell, pay off the loan), or, sell it to the dealer. They might want to fix it and then sell and make some money. Use the proceed to buy a more reliable car. After graduation and when you make over six digits, you can then buy a new Jag, but remember to buy the warranty (I would also pay off the college loan first).
If you do want to take it to the court, I really don't see a recourse. Warranty clearly states 4 yrs and 50,000 mile warranty...
In regards to the repair, I think the only recourse is if the recall letter was never sent to you. If they can prove that it was sent to you and you somehow did not respond to it, you're probably out of luck. Of course it's hard to prove, maybe it was lost in mail or it was never sent and they insist they have. However, if during recall period that you've serviced your car at a Jag dealer and they did not replace the regulators for you, you can probably do something about it.
Now I have to be on Jag's side. I think you should have had the windows repaired at a Jag dealer, I understand that it might be hard for you to go to an authorized dealer due to weather/location, but you have to make a decision whether the $876 is worth the trip. If you decided that you would rather save yourself a trip at a local shop, then it doesn't sound like Jag should be responsible for reimbursing the difference. I don't think MBZ, BMW, or Lexus will reimburse you for having warranty work done at a non-authorized shop either.
Lastly, don't worry about comparing the Jag to other luxury brands, go to MBZ, Audi, or BMW forums, you'll find just as many complaining. My best friend drives a 2005 CLK 320, he's had his shares of problems with stereo, speaker cover, tires, and various minor problems. Another friend who drives a BMW's has also been complaining about the SMG and a few problems on the exterior panels. Only luxury brand that's really trouble free is probably Lexus, but it's probably in a league of its own in terms of reliability.
In regards to your front window, yes, two of my three windows made squeaky noises prior to the problem. Of course, my rear windows had only been down a couple of times since I purchased the car.
Thanks for the info about Lexus. I keep hearing good things about them from their owners around here. Because I live about 90 miles from any of the luxury dealerships, perhaps at my age I should just settle for a Chevy or Ford.
Thanks for the heads up on the squeaky window, I am taking the car to my dealer to check it out sometimes this week (signal light bulbs went out too). I do have tint window, I hope they don't blame it on the tint window.
Also, my radio display is faulty. Every time I start the car it display a bunch of trash, and gets normalized after a while. Anybody knows if there is a in-dash cd changer from Jaguar?
Thanks Guys
The 2005 model has an aluminum hood, retuned front suspension, restyled exterior, and some other stuff.
Bill
I believe they were mandatory for Jaguars sold in Canada. Could it be the car is wired for this feature but not installed in the US.
David,
Jacksonville, Oregon
thanks
Anyone have a spare handbook that's looking for a new home?
http://www.keycast.com/keycast/jaguar/myjaguar04/main.asp?infoid={308E06A9-BEE7-- 410A-96FB-B29E647A233D}
If so, how well does it work for you?
For instance. Check out this car http://tinyurl.com/bkj54
It has 3 years and about 50,000 miles remaining on the warranty (6 year/100K for Select Edition) and the dealer has priced it at roughly KBB retail value for "excellent" condition for the mileage and equipment listed.
when making a left turn (from a stopped position).
The dealership states they can not find any problems. The tranny service light have come on 3 times in the last 6 months. Each time it (service light) has come on it has been after dealership hours and on the weekend. I will drive it directly to the dealer if it ever comes on doing dealer operating hours. Car has 28.5k miles on it. I'm still searching for answers from dealership. Like You - I Love the car but these issues are starting 2 irritate me..
Thanks,
Chintan Talati
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com