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Last night I took an exit ramp, and anticipating a 90 degree turn, did not slow enough... this was a 180 degree ramp. Traction control (or antilock?) easily took care of the excess speed. In an older model car I'm sure I would have ended up using the shoulder to compensate.
Since the standard Intrigue takes care of situations like this just fine, I'm inclined to think the main reason to get PCS is the short axle, moreso than for handling characteristics. (But I'd stil like to make that comparison sometime.)
one2one : The CTS looks sweet. If Cadillac executes well, the division should flourish. Evoq is also a very cool car. First time I have ever been excited about Cadillac.
Cadillac is less likely to go simply from a prestige standpoint. However, they are taking a huge risk with cars like the CTS which, IMO, looks downright awful in the pics I've seen. I cannot imagine many Cadillac buyers liking it. If they continue along that path and Caddy sales tank, what can they do? Their traditional buyers will have gone to Lincoln or Lexus or wherever, and there might not be enough new buyers to pay back their investment. It is so close to what they tried with Olds it is scary.
I had an interesting and somewhat depressing conversation with a GM loyalist today. He was lamenting the corporation's record over the last few years and said that he has encountered many buyers who simply will no longer consider any GM car because they find them unappealing and they have a bad reputation. He equated the image that these people have to that others may have for brands like Daewoo or Hyundai. How sad. I dunno if things are truly that bad, but GM is at a critical point and I dunno if they have the horses to pull themselves out of the hole they have dug for themselves.
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vcjumper : Hey, I was at Philthy's tonight. You talking Oakville or Burlington?
Toyota
That's what I'm not understanding from the GM design studios. What's with the obsession to make cars that send people to opposite ends of the spectrum? First the Aztek, now the CTS. I've seen a lot of the new Escalades on the road. I like them, but I can easily see and understand why some would not. If their trying to get new customers, I would think that designs that were intresting yet moderate would be a better choice. The new Aurora may not be as dynamicly styled as the original but it's more interesting to look at than a TL yet not so boldly styled that it will set conseratives off. Even better, the Intrigue and Alero are perfect examples of the way the design studio should make cars. While not everyone will like the styling, more people than not think they look great.
The lean bit and the Deming only goes so far..
The Big 3 structure is awesome in comparison and is changing to lower costs.. The consolidation of suppliers is ongoing at a rapid pace and will displace alot of wage earners..
Having been involved with the automotive on and off for years as a supplier it has been fun, rewarding, and as a commissioned rep for the last 12 yrs,.."what a ride!!!!"
Love the Big 3 and the mystic it holds along with its ability to survive on thin pricing..
The fun is gone from the industry side so within the next 10 months it's off to enjoy the "Golden Years", maybe get another occupation???
>>> mosaix : The Koreans are skimming the bottom of the market. Most of the people driving these things are lower income families or students. Save a few grand and hope for the best I guess. Hyundia has come a long way from the Pony, but it's still nothing great. Kia is crap, especially the Sportage >>>
I would agree with your comments about the lower income folks, but lets think about this strategy a bit, if those people have a half-way decent experience then it is likely that they may become repeat buyers. Is this not the same strategy Toyota started with back in the 60's and Honda in the 70's ?? I am certain that longer warranties also have an appeal, due to some people's strap cash-flow positions. Chrysler used their 5/70k warranty to kick-start their sales back in the 80's, problem was the cars did not hold up that long.
The Big-3 should be very concerned about the Koreans, cause it looks like they are trying to duplicate the Japanese plans. And if they [GM] thinks they have their hands full with Toyota/Honda/Nissan/Subie now, wait till the bottom feeders [Hyundia, Kia] start getting it RIGHT.
I'm telling you guys after the initial styling & pricing part, people want cars that are RELIABLE!! The Cam/Cords are NOT anything that outstanding to look at, but most people have had very good luck with them and they keep coming back for more.
one2one ::: hold on dude, do you really know anyone who likes the Aztek ???
9899-Olds ::: Saturn started with a clean sheet, and they've got the same couple of sheets setting in front of them. Not a much has changed over 10 some odd years.
Camry and Accord are reliable BUT, they are losing that advantage on a daily basis. The mediocre designs of these cars will catch up with them in the years to come. The new Altima will likely be only the first strike.
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one2one : I wouldn't say I love the CTS, but it's an attractive car. Then again, I like Saabs a lot also. Unique and attractive are they key. Aztek I don't like much.
Korean cars:: I'm not sure if the Korean makes are moving in the direction they are because they're trying to follow the Japanese pattern on purpose or if it's simply that they see an opportunity and are taking it.
I read an article recently that pointed out that the major car companies have all but forgotten the entry level segment. GM, Ford and Chrysler certainly have. So have Honda (to a lesser extent), Nissan and especially Toyota. So there's a huge market that the Big Boyz are overlooking.
I remember back in the 70's when Datsun (Nissan for you young-bucks), Toyota and Honda only made small cars. Even their big cars were small! But there was that little thing with the oil during those times too. Now is as good a time as ever for the Koreans to make a move with the still overinflated gas prices at the pump. It'll be interesting to see how they work it.
I read the article on the Ford Lighting. They listed just some of Ford's SVT (Special Vehicles Team) models then touched on AMG and BMW's M cars. The OSV Intrigue would have been nice. The Buick Regal GNX was made but that was just for show. GM has no special vehicles planned to hit the streets unless the always present Grand Prix GTP and Regal GS are their SVs. Or am I just not looking in the right place?
So... Her next two cars? A 1985 Ford Escort (also absolutely *BASE*) and a 1991 Ford Escort. (Not quite base, since it did have a radio! :-) )
US manufacturers only build small cars in the hope that people will "move up" and buy the bigger, more profitable cars later. Chintzy customers like my mom don't appeal to them or help the bottom line.
I'm sure there are some boardroom types in Detroit who say most cheap customers are like my mom, and there'd be no point building small cars at all if it wasn't for CAFE regulations.
You have to lay the blame on Wayne Cherry as GM's head of design. He is responsible for the Aztek, the overdone cladding on Pontiacs, the Impala, the Monte Carlo, the Avalanche, and I suspect he might have been the guy responsible for the GM "Orca" big RWD cars that killed that platform. The guy simply is a bad designer. I saw my first Chevy Avalanche in the flesh today and it was absolutely repulsive, almost worse than the Aztek because of the sheet size of the thing. So there's no end in sight for this stuff.
Having said that, you wonder how clean designs like the Intrigue and Alero made it thru. It's like he has a split personality. Either that, or he delegates a whole bunch.
As for the CTS, I really do not like the pics I've seen and I doubt if Cadillac buyers or even salespeople will either.
Interesting commentary at www.autoextremist.com the other day: in a nutshell, it said that Cherry will take Lutz thru the design hall to look at upcoming cars, and Lutz will say something like "no, no, no, no, no, no, yes, maybe, no, no, no, no..." I suspect that may be well the case with Cherry's work.
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The Corvette C5 and Impala were designed by John Cafaro. I personally like them both as I totally dislike the boring Japanese theme in most new sedans in the market. The plain looks of the current Accord and Camry make my big butt Impala to stand up among the crowd of me too rice burners. Love or hate it...that's my theme
In the mean time I think that Germany and the Europeans in general have the best and most appealing designs in the market. The Japanese have nothing outstanding or interesting in this area for now...
I agree, the Aztek was way overboard. If it were a niche vehicle fine, but this was suppose to be a big seller. Avalanche is a niche truck, so I think GM will be ok with that. Ugly ya, but to each his own.
As for the CTS, I think it looks sharp and is probably right on track. I don't think you can compare it to the Aztek and I don't think it looks all that out there (as some pictures may suggest). Cadillac is in a tuff spot and not everyone will love what they are doing. I do think that there will be a large group that will like these new generation Cadillacs though.
I had the same mixed feelings about the Evoq until I saw one in front of me. The car is just beautiful!
Unlike most up scale Japanese cars, the CTS does not try to mimic BMW's or MB's design cues. It wants to stand on its own right and I think it does it nicely.
And if people in this segment buy ugly cars like the IS300 and the Maxima, the CTS will shine! Well, I reserve the right to retract this after I see it myself, just in case...
;^)
This was Roger Smiths legacy along with a ton of screwups. Roger also couldn't stand Ross P and gave him almost a billion bucks..
Our domestic industry is steeped in blunders and on the flip side, lots of victories..
Hate to get sentimental, but my memories are Detroit and its clout; a big generation gap that anybody under 45 wouldn't really realize or probably care..It's very easy to bad mouth Detroit..
I have driven the Intrigue harder than any car due mainly to my dislike for it's noisy demeanor..
At 49k with "no checkups" since new it needs tires only and another air filter..It leaks no fluids and loves the 2250/2750 level which is 75/90.. Other than brakes early on, no tweaking required for anything..
Now why would I want to risk this type of reliabilty going to an Acura which is more expensive, and smaller?..I know the dealer on this side of town for I had several Buicks in his repair facility..He is a Buick/Nissan/Honda/Acura and his Buick service brains are real clowns..Never ever have purchased a car at the place..
If a car requires service checkups; it ain't in my garage..No tweaking allowed..Oil changes and tire rotations are the only service required..Even the returned Intrigue was reliable, had steering and brake problems; otherwise it was a runner.
In short they mention that they were not too crazy about it, and that Cadillac may be betting too much on the new looks & designs.
Only time will tell whether the dogs [consumers] like it or hate it. If it is the latter Cadillac may be in for some MORE rough times, cause the look/theme is supposed to be carried over to other Caddy models as well.
>> It leaks no fluids and loves the 2250/2750 level which is 75/90..
Now that gas is getting down to $1.55 a gallon in CA, I'm allowing myself to leave the Intrigue in 3rd gear more often. 70MPH is about 2800-3000 RPM and that's where the motor really starts to assert itself.
Every day I hop around nimrods in their uber-machine Benzies and Bimmers, jakking on cell phones, taking up valuble space in the left lane.
UGGHH. >:-|
Ifen you drivzen der performance makshinery, putten der footen on der gasen ,and *GO*!!
Things are not as bad as I say? Perhaps you're right; maybe they are worse. Let's look at the record, shall we? I have about $3000 in GM card cash and there is not one thing they make that I can spend it on. I would have gone for an Intrigue, but they killed Olds. That means the Alero is out also. I don't want a fullsize truck (too big) and their small pickups are too narrow and have severe quality issues according to all reports. The entire Chevy lineup is unappealing. The Pontiac people come closest but I can't stand their boy-racer tendencies. The only Buick I like is the top-line one and it's too expensive. Saturns are dull, mean, unappealing cars. So I'm out of luck.
I want to like GM. No one wants GM to do well more than I do. I have always been a GM kid and currently own 3 old GM cars. But ever since the days of Roger Smith the management has consistently run GM into the ground. Their product is unappealing, their design either dull or repulsive, and their engineering increasingly questionable. I have a friend who owns a '97 Olds 88 LSS. It was a big move for him, but he is much like me and wanted to support GM. What he has now, about a year out of warranty and with 80,000 km on the clock, is a designed-in transmission flaw that GM knows about and will do nothing to fix that will cost him between $1300-2500 to put right. The car is babied, yet things are going wrong. Most recently the CD player packed it in, and he was told, "oh, those only last 3 years anyway". Is that what you get when you spend $30K on a new GM car? If so then maybe I'm too positive in my assessment of GM.
Instead of making investments in better product they spend their money on things like the Aztek and the Avalanche. They are no more a car company these days than P&G, or so it seems. They are not interested in making cars, only in making money. Hence the decontenting of vehicles, the cheap mouse-gray cloth interiors, the reliance on quick-and-easy gimmicks rather than solid engineering. And it has been like that for *decades* now. What are these people thinking? No one there knows what used to make GM great or what a good car consists of. They're all a bunch of soap salesmen.
OK, I feel better now. And I'll try not to be so negative in the future. But I'll still be upset.
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You know what vehicle on the market these days really grabs me with a combination of high style, eye appeal, good performance, and known levels of quality? In other words, all of the things that GM used to have a lock on?
I saw it last weekend and if my GM card cash could have been used on it, I would have it in my driveway right now. It was the Acura 3.2 CL Type S in what the Acura guys call "pimpmobile gold" paint. Just beautiful. A sharp-looking, stylish car you would be proud to drive, and one that likely will not disappoint you before the payment book is used up.
I know you and jgriff have had an ongoing debate here and this is not intended to exploit that. But maybe, just maybe, he is right on some things.
And I assure you, you have no idea how hard it is for me to write what I just wrote. That, my friend, is how far GM has fallen.
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The Mercs and the Bimmers aren't worrying about you so unless you have the top end package, your buns are beat!!!
Maybe the cars are being dumped in Canada...The taxes in your country are getting a little out of hand..I assume you work for a non-automotive type of business.
Canada is a neat country to visit and a great setup for shipping to the USA and billing US $..Great rate on exchange..I love the system..
I spent some time each month in the Niagara-on-the-Lake region and it is grand..
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I'd say judge the cars on their merits rather than who drives them. I had to overcome a similar feeling about buying an OOOOLLLLDSmobile but I did anyway.
Yeah, Olds is going away, but there will be parts for years to come. Plus, GM finally upped the warranty when they killed the brand. We might still be stick in 36 month warranty mode otherwise...
9899Olds: I don't think driving in "3" (some of the time) harms the car. There's a lot of stop and go traffic on the highways in metropolitan CA, so you don't get to troll steadily at 2200 RPM in overdrive anyway. (But late at night, with nobody around, I can just leave it in "D" and set the cruise.)
An no, the heat's just fine. We're having a mild summer, in fact-- despite all the power grid doomsday talk a few months ago.
Have you seen the new SUV triplets (Trailblazer/Bravada/Envoy)?? Beautiful trucks! How about a Rendezvous? They look great in dark blue. There is more good GM stuff coming also. The CTS in January and the Saturn VUE in late fall.
GM still does make a lot of mediocre cars BUT, there is a lot of good here and coming also. While I am still mad that GM killed Oldsmobile, word is getting out that Pontiac is moving up in terms of sophistication and perhaps there will be a car for me again when my Intrigue dies.
Cheer up and take another look.
;-)
My quote: Intrigue is a so-so $28,000 car, but a great $22,000 car.
Does anyone that actually has a 1998 Intrigue really know that it has heated outdoor mirrors? Or was that just a rumor? One thing I sure hate about the 2001 models is the elimination of the remote fuel door release. Dumb.
white6::::::I like your value quip assessment of the Acura and the Intrigue..Haven't seen any 02 Zs yet..Lost my steam for one right now, for there are too many irons in the fire.. Selling the Mich home, at least trying, and making bids on Fla properties. Stilling working the rep business of forgings and castings, trying to find a place to put money to earn a decent return and working on the golf game..Golf sucks right now; had a bad 18 today..
Made an offer on the 99 Concurs Thursday-the 11k mile car-offered 20k, they are at 23900, little spread, but don't think it would matter if I upped it to 22k, may have to wait until the end of month.. This week is tax week for the extension filers and so it starts off wrong..
dindak:::::The Rendezvous is ugly, not butt ugly like the Aztec..If GM can't do any better than either one of those offerings as psuedo SUVs; they should scrap the tooling and kill the body line..
Somebody on this forum mentioned the high-priced Buick as their dream car; I assume the Park Ultra which is probably one of the biggest automotive rip-offs going on..The Buick lineup is puzzling and it doesn't improve..
I went through three Buicks, new jobbies and their suspension is junko,junko..I used to call Goodyear for tire replacement and they always came back and asked"you are driving a Buick,right?"..
Another funny sight is Goodyear LS tires on a $50k
STS Cadillac, they come equipped with them from the factory..
White 6: your comment is dead on, everyone (thing) has a price...