I've got a TB with Manual air. Temps out here are in the 90 and if I am stopped at a light (engine not revving) the coldness of the air deminishes considerably. The power of the flow is there but the temp must come up by at least 10-15 degrees. I am going to have them look at it next time it goes in. I also have the problem of the front doors rattling on washboard roads as was mentioned in the MT article. Guess they all have it, but this only happens when you really push it hard on dirt roads so I can probably live with it.
I don't think I implied that 4 and 5 cylinder engines are ever anything but inline in a car. 4 cylinder motorcycle engines can have a V configuration. A 5 cylinder V configuration makes no sense at all. So...I don't know why you threw that comment ("all car 4 and 5 cylinder engines are inline design") out there...
GM has employed some technological advances with this brand new engine (note: this inline 6 engine is new, not the technology of an inline 6). Inline motors should be more reliable but that's not the rule. For example, there is one head and head gasket on an inline motor but two on a V shaped motor (more parts to fail)...that's one example of why an inline 6 inherently is more reliable (but it doesn't always work out that way).
On the Positive side my TB-LTZ is getting pretty good gas mileage (19-21)with 3.73 gears. Accelerates very fast, plenty of power for passing or expressway driving. Not burning any oil, no rattles, or vibrations. On Star works good, a few problems at first getting an answer, but after insisting that they get everything right have had no problems. The radio volumn fading when I come to a stop is a nusiance, but I can live with it.
However the rear end (been totally replaced), the transmission not shifting right. The AC not working. Power mirrors and power seat moving at random, and a few other weird things happening make me wonder why I decided to buy this TB.
The TB is going in the shop tomorrow will post the results of the repairs when I get it back. Anyone with similar problems I would enjoy hearing from you.
Hardhawk: Thanks so much for your search for running board part numbers. I'm surprised the boards are not stamped, but oh well. I'm pretty determined and will get my running boards sometime. Again, thanks for your effort.
I don't know about the Envoy, but the Bravada has dual trip odometers (accessed through the DIC), so I'd think the other triplets would have them, too.
I've had a weird problem with the power mirrors since I got my Envoy. They don't remember their positions. I have the Seat Position Recall setting in the DIC set to Remote. Most of the time when I open just the driver's door, the mirrors will stay at the correct positions. If I open the passenger doors by clicking twice on the remote, the mirrors go haywire. The right one is especially bad, sometimes pointing toward the sky, sometimes toward the ground. I swear that sometimes they even move while the vehicle is in motion. The dealer so far has reprogrammed both of my remotes and the problem has minimized but it is still there.
The work around I've found so far is to press the driver 2 button then press driver 1 and the mirrors will return to the correct position. I also changed the setting for Seat Position Recall to active on Key insert. I'll be bringing it back to the dealer again to see what else they can do.
Because the mirrors move while the vehicle is in motion and I believe this can compromise safety, I've filed the issue with the NHTSA.
If you have the DIC system you have two trip odometers. To see them press the "odo" button on the steering wheel (not the one on the instrument panel), it's the one that is on the left top (above the one for fuel data).
Tinting.
Many states do not allow after market tinting on the front windows. It's dangerous both for visibility and for law enforcement. There are no manufacturers that provide a dark tint for the windshield or front side windows.
You are getting two things mixed up but you still may have a problem.
First: What the Onstar person told you was in reference to the "free minutes" for the cell phone use of the Onstar system. As on most cell phone systems, minutes expire. You have to buy minutes to use the cell phone feature each month.
Second: You have a year of Standard or Premium Onstar service included with your vehicle (depending on the option package you chose). That includes the Onstar features but has nothing to do with the cell phone feature. If you are having a problem it's because the dealer did not set it up (or set it up properly).
Did the dealer "set-up" the Onstar system when you got the vehicle? That is, did you sit in the vehicle and "talk" to Onstar for about 10 minutes giving information about yourself and the vehicle with the dealer? If not, then they have to in order to get the service. If that is the case, it will be a year from when it is set up, so you won't "lose" any time.
This is my first post. I just purchaced a 2wd TrailBlazer LS pkg 3. Indigo Blue with 3.73. GREAT on the highway. Test drove many models and for the money the TrailBlazer is the winner hands down. Powertrain is the best I have experienced in this class. Very stable in the corners. Flattened the mountains in WV with no problem. It gets looks everywhere it goes. GM has a winner on their hands folks. Hopefully the "XL" versions will even the bar with all of those 7 passenger SUVs. Over all I am very happy. This is my first new car and the info from the owners here have been valuable.
You can either have 27% tint on all windows, or ANY darkness on windows behind the driver with NO tint on front windows. However, the local shops here are legally allowed to put a 30-35% tint on front passenger glass w/the factory rear tint so it's lighter than the rear glass, but it still affords some glare and heat reduction.
Glad to hear we're not the only ones experiencing this problem. We were beginning to think our eyes were deceiving us. Haven't brought up the problem with the dealer, it happens so infrequently. Today, noticed that the right mirror was off again and could not "lock" it into a new position with the #1 button.
This month's review by CR of the Envoy was less than glowing to say the least. I had been considering buying this truck, and don't ordinarilly attach much credibility to their reviews. They made specific observations about sloppy handling, steering and marginal braking performance. Poor fuel economy was also noted.
Can any owners out there confirm or rebut these findings?
I'll have to see the review, but CR is generally a poor indicator of what is good and what isn't, especially for trucks. They always go with the sure bets like Accord/Camry in cars and they generally recommend car-like SUVs. I'm sure they love the Highlander wagon. I also question some of the recommendations they make on normal consumer products. Basically, take it all with a grain of salt.
I've been reading the posts about the power mirrors moving to "random positions." The first time I drove my Envoy with the memory mirrors, I thought I had a problem as well when the mirrors clunked against the stops until I put the transmission into drive. That's when I read the Owner's Manual, and found out that the mirror positions are tied to Driver 1 and Driver 2, and that the truck identifies the driver through the key fob (Look on the back of your fob; there is either a 1 or a 2 stamped on the back). If you're using a different key fob (remote keyless entry) when you drive your TB, the mirrors should move!
Also, if you've set you DIC settings (different for Driver 1 and Driver 2) for Tilt Mirror in Reverse for Passenger, Driver, or Both, your mirrors will travel to the Tilt Mirror position.
My Envoy was clunking against the stops in reverse, so I just programmed in the position I wanted. On page 2-57 of the Envoy manual (the others in the trio may be different) states, "To change the preselected tilt position, adjust the mirrors to the desired position while the vehicle is in REVERSE (R). When the vehicle is shifted out of REVERSE (R), this new position is saved in memory as the tilt position." Now my mirrors work just like I want.
Humm, I thought I was crazy and did not want to bring up the subject since my Bravada is just perfect and does not have any of the problems mentioned. I thought it was "me". My mirrors too have this problem, specially the left one -driver- then, lately, the passenger mirror started acting up. Any way, thanks anjin_nav, I will give it a try and attempt to reset the mirrors. Will keep you posted.
Looking for some advice--found a Trailblazer with everything I want on it with the exception of the BOSE sound system. I haven't had a chance to compare with and without (I'm getting the 6 in-dash changer) and I was wondering whether those with the BOSE thought it added much to the system. I was also curious if I would be losing any unique features other than sound quality by not getting BOSE. Thanks for the input!
The comments from the CR article sound like the same complaints they make about any truck or truck based SUV. My Envoy handles well, brakes well, and gets decent fuel economy compared to the competition. Lets face it, CR wants all of us to be driving little econoboxes with hybrid fuel systems. I'm sorry, but they just don't cut it for me. If I want a washer or dryer, I will consult CR. For a car, truck, or SUV, I will consult the automotive press, and it continues to have nothing but good things to say about the Envoy. My ownership and driving experience confirms the positive press reviews.
I too have mirror issues -- anjin_nav my passenger one just started clunking in reverse when tilting downward. I'll try your fix and see what happens. I still feel there is a bug somewhere in the design as I all too often note they don't line back up just perfect afterwards.
hotshot7 Could be just me, but I've listened to both Bose and non-bose and I'd get the Bose if I were you. I did it on my GTP and loved it and with the TB...it's 10x better than my Pontiac was. Much richer than stock, better lows and real clear. I love music and would hate each drive if I didn't get the Bose System. I can live without the changer though.
any conclusion on the rise in temps while at idle? My guess is it's normal and something to live with, but I do wish it wouldn't raise up in temp like that. Odd design IMO. Flaw actually.
the door Rattle...I had it too on washboard roads. The dealer adjusted the rear drivers door and now it's, well....Like a Rock as Chevy states.
Not big deal as the dealer fixed it right away and even gave me a demo LTZ to drive but:
A week or so ago, according to the dealer, the linkage connecting the shifter to the tranny came loose, thus I found myself unable to get the car in Park, reverse or Overdrive. Just D3, 2, 1.
Pretty scary considering I was parked head first! Had to push her out of the spot.
A problem with these trucks is that they're pretty complicated. GM does a decent enough job recording operation of the features in the Owner's Manual, but who wants to read that? I want to get out and DRIVE!
Anyway, I wrestled with the mirrors a lot myself, especially when I thought the mirrors weren't adjusting properly. After some experimentation, I found that the greatest source of variation in the mirrors was ME. I would get in and sit in a different position almost every time I drove. It's a fact that after sleeping we're all a little taller, so your mirrors might appear aimed downward in the morning. Then after slouching all day over a computer's keyboard, I found myself slouching while driving home, making the mirrors appear adjusted too high. After a couple of long drives (240 miles), I even found my posture changed over time. That's not to say something couldn't be wrong with your mirrors, but get them adjusted and tweak them to meet YOUR changes in posture. That revelation sure helped my state of mind.
As for the Bose system, hotshot7, I'm not much of an audiophile, so I make a pretty poor judge. The regular speakers seem pretty good to me. However, Bose has a decent reputation out there, and a lot of my friends who CAN tell the difference in sound quality between a CD and an MP3 file tell me the Bose is a much better speaker. Also, with the Bose system, you'll get the adaptive sound that "listens" to the vehicle and adds the appropriate frequencies as your driving environment changes. For example, as your speed increases and you get more tire noise, the Bose system is supposed to increase amplitude of the appropriate frequencies in your music that would normally be drowned out by the tires. I've read a number of comments in these forums from those who said they couldn't hear the difference, but that is exactly the point!
Finally, (and forgive the long post) in their 2001 Death Valley Torture Test, September issue, Motor Trend gave the Envoy A/C a pretty good review for cooling the vehicle from 120 to 88.4 (degrees F) at idle after five minutes. That's not too bad, especially when you consider the engine is producing the least power at idle. You may notice your fan blowing a little slower (remember, the electrical power is drawn off the engine, too), and maybe the air blown is a little warmer (the compressor gets its power straight off the engine), but remember, at idle is just when the engine has the least power to spare. Also, you might have the auto A/C, and it may simply be decreasing its cooling intensity automatically. Unfortunately, that's just when we, the driver, seem to want the most from our A/C!
Thanks for your insights, but I promise, the mirror problem is not related to posture. The dealer acknowledged the problem and reprogrammed the key fobs. The mirrors worked for one day, then started going haywire again.
This is what happens:
1. Reset mirrors and program driver 1 position according to the instructions in the owners manual on page 1-3. 2. Get out of car and lock it. 3. Open all doors by pressing unlock button on driver 1 key fob twice. 4. Mirrors move to random position 5. Get in car and press button for driver 1 seat on door panel. Mirrors will sometimes return to original position, but most of the time move to yet another random position. 6. Press driver 2 button on door panel, then immediately press driver 1 button - Mirrors return to original positions programmed in step 1.
All this happens with car in park. To make matters worse, the mirrors will move while the vehicle is in motion if Seat Position Recall is turned on in the DIC. The driver mirror will micro-adjust to an extreme inward position so I can no longer see the lane next me. All I see is truck body. The passenger mirror micro-adjusts to an extreme outward and upward position so I can no longer see any portion of my truck body in the mirror, only sky. With the setting turned off, the mirrors remain fixed.
Interestingly enough, I have the same problem with the memory mirrors on my STS. When the passenger-side mirror has tilted down when in reverse, sometimes instead of returning to the normal position, it aims all the way up to the sky. My dealership is aware and has been unable to fix it--they seem to recognize it's a problem. I suspect that these SUVs and the STS use similar electronics for the memory systems, since the features are all pretty much the same, so I bet it's a similar problem. As such, based on my experience, don't hold out too much hope for a permanent fix. At least with mine, it's an intermittent problem, corrected by putting the car in park and hitting the memory button again.
Hotshot7 - I have had several vehicles (including 2 Corvettes) in the past with Bose soundsystems. They all sounded terrible. However, I have to say that I was shocked at the level of sound quality in my TB Bose system. The highs are high and the lows are low. The old systems sounded very flat and almost muffled. I have not had the opportunity to listen to the stock TB system, but I highly recommend the Bose system.
For some time now, I have been following these three new vehicles and still continue to be very impressed with them. I'm not really in the market for a vehicle, but maybe I will be sometime. I like all of them for different reasons but maybe you all could help me by explaining why you bought which one you did. Here's what I think of each so far:
CHEVROLET TRAILBLAZER -Great, muscular, eye-catching good looks, especially a black LTZ. -Very good features for dollar, and best value of bunch. -Availability of LT w/ cloth, Bose, and Auto air. -From what I have read and seen, very cheap, downmarket plastic interior parts, especially dash. -Can't get an LTZ with cloth; I've read about other's mentioning here too. Wonder if it could be special ordered or if dealer would swap seats with an LT for either a discount or a slight charge?
GMC ENVOY -Nice, Euro-like styling. -Availability of air suspension. -Nicest looking interior with chrome and carbon fiber or wood trim. -Standard 17" wheels & Michelin tires. -Can't get an SLE with Bose or Auto Air.
OLDSMOBILE BRAVADA -Elegant, Old's car-like styling. -Standard air suspension & many other features that are optional on others. -Comfy looking interior, and from what I hear, higher quality materials inside than the others. -Great 5-year/60,000 mile warranty, even though the Old's brand will be no more. -Can't get cloth as an option.
I was just about to ask if the Bose was worth getting over the base stereo, and it seems that it is. Too bad you can't get it in an Envoy SLE though. Also, what are some of your thoughts on both the coil and air-spring rear suspensions? I've read that the air springs ride even smoother than the coils and I like the air hose in back that comes with it. However, I've been reading different reviews, and while some say the air suspension is a great feature that makes the ride incredible, others say they'd stick with the coils do to the sloppy handling and roll with the air springs. Any thoughts? What made you pick which of the three new ute's from GM that you did?
I have had the exact same thing happen with the passenger mirror on my STS also! Never on my Bravada though. Since it has only happened on my passenger side and, on the Cadillac, that is the only one with the curb setting, you must be correct that it is an electronic gremlin.
I have ask GMC directly through their Internet answering service and have ask the local GMC dealer to look it up in the Service Manual and I can not get a straight answer. The question is--The Envoy motor is all Aluminum but what does that mean? Many motors are Aluminum but they have Cast Iron cylinder liners. Mersades has several Aluminum motors and they have Aluminum cylinders(no cast iron liners). I think BMW does the same. Most lawn mower engines have all aluminum motors. Other Aluminum motors have plasma arc treated cylinders to make the surface hard and slick while the way of the future appears to be high silicone alunimum liners. So does anybody know what the new 4.2 liter engine has?
The I4.2 has iron sleeves according the brochures. From what I understand, the sleeves are cryogenically cooled before they are inserted into the cylinders, so that when their temperature rises, they expand forming an extremely tight fit - as if the boundary between aluminum and iron was an alloy. This minimizes the chances of coolant leaks, etc. Because the mating was done at cryogenic temperatures, the mating remains perfect over the entire operating range of the engine (as long as you don't try to run it in a vat of liquid nitrogen).
The mirror problem sounds like a failure in the position sensor or the feedback loop from the sensor to the instrumentation computer or a faulty ground circuit to the sensor. The failure could be intermittent, so that the computer's programmed value in memory could be corrupted sometimes, or the reading the computer is taking could be corrupted sometimes. If the mirror position sensor has a bad ground circuit, noise could cause the reading to drift which would tell the computer to compensate for the drift - and that would explain the micro adjustments until the mirror reaches its physical limits.
The air suspension system provides a smoother ride than the coils but, according to Car and Driver, could make passengers car sick with the ride it provides. Personally, since I plan on keeping my vehicle a long time, I would be afraid of the maintenance cost when/if the air bladders go out. A Bravada owner posted a few months back his air suspension nightmare...one of the bladders blew out and caused thousands in damage to his SUV (GM replaced the vehicle).
well, it's sad that my mirrors have a mind of their own, and that GM will probably not come to a fix in my ownership. I'm not happy, but have to live with it. thankfully they only move out of place about 50% of the time.
As a recent Exploder purchaser, I really enjoyed the CR review. But I enjoy the comments I see on this board even more. Stuff like "I'll trust CR for reviews on washers/driers, but not when it come to cars". Those types of statements are completely ludicrous, and contain no common sense. CR tests ALL products in the most scientific, unbiased, and consistent manner of any source...doesn't matter what the product is...they will be both truthful and consistent. They are for the most part completely objective.
As for vehicle owners, now we have a different story. We tend to be subjective, and emotional. Only makes sense as we just spent thousands of dollars on our new cars, and we want to justify our purchases.
My take on the story:
Exploder beat the GM triplets, and in just about every category. It also beat all the others with the exception of the Acura, Lexus, and Benz, but none of us cared about those since we wanted "truck-like" SUVs, not to mention they're like 10K more than we had to pay. The Exploder has a 3rd seat...do any of you guys have one? We've used ours three times in the two months we've owned it. Exploder handles better...I kinda like that. Exploder brakes better. Exploder has a more comfortable interior. Near as I can tell the only thing the triplets did better was the ride, and that was compromised with a load. And to add insult to injury, my Exploder with the V8 and tow pack will accelerate better, tow 1200 lbs more, and gets better MPG. But to absolutely make matters worse, I suspect when the CR reliability ratings come in, the Exploder will be rated average (typical of Ford), while the triplets will be rated worse or much worse than average (typical of GM). That part is pure speculation on my part, but based on the traffic on this board compared to the Exploder board, I'm thinking it's a pretty safe bet.
Enjoy your triplets ya'all...I'm enjoying the heck out of our superior Exploder.
You are in dreamland my friend. The GM triplets have handily beat out the the new Explorer in every car magazine I have seen. Further, the data you are feeding us is clearly fiction as it doesn't jive with reality. Explorer has lousy styling, worse gas mileage, less power in the V8 (though the towing is a little better), a lousy weak V6, a cheap dash board and Ford quality to boot. Ford has has 5+ recalls on the Escape and the Explorer is already at 2.
No action on the Explorer board because no one is buying them. The local lot has tons in stock.
If the 2002 Explorer is so great, then it should sell itself on its own merits. If that is the case, why then does Ford have to offer cashback ($500)and low rate financing on a BRAND NEW VEHICLE?? *Incentive and rebate info obtained from autosite.com
As far as CR's reviews are concerned, they are far from unbiased...they have always had a very clear bias against GM products. Sometimes it is warranted, but to continually put down everything the General makes sounds as if they have an axe to grind. This makes CR's opinion worthless (IMHO), especially when the automotive press has heaped praise on the triplets.
Finally, Quality is not job 1 at Ford, nor has it ever been. Remember, Ford is the Klingon word for crap!!
A pet peeve of mine - why should a vehicle with a third seat get extra points compared to a vehicle with only 2? Aren't we comparing apples and oranges? I don't have kids - only a large dog, and I won't buy a car with a third seat! It constantly drives me crazy that car reviewers and others give the edge to something I don't need and certainly don't want!
By the way, while I am thinking about getting a new commuter vehicle, I don't have either an Explorer or one of the GM triplets at the moment, though I have test driven both.
Where did you see the information you shared in print? I'm from the old school and like the idea of Cast Iron liners vs the truly all aluminum engines. Do you by chance know about the all aluminum 4.6 liter Explorer engine. I know in it's early development they had coolant leaks and overheating problems.
Also--I understand that the latest method of inserting cast iron sleeves is to place them in a mold and the moltant Aluminum flows around them forming the completed block. There are engineered external rings made into the liners that forms an even better bond as the engine heats up. In other words the difference in the coefficient of thermal expansion between the cast iron and the aluminum serves to tighten up the liners within the aluminum block as the temperature rises.
No one buying them eh? Exploder was the 4th highest selling vehicle in the US in July, behind the F-150, Cheby, and Dodge-it trucks. Styling is subjective. IMHO the Exploder looks much better than any of the triplets. MPG in our 2wd V8 with 2500 miles on it is up to 16 now, and that is pure city driving. As for power, the HP ratings need to be taken with a grain of salt. So the triplets are rated at 270. Do you drive your SUV around all the time at 6000RPM? I think not. The 0-60 time in the V8 Exploder is sub 8 seconds. If you'd like to put your money where your mouth is, why don't you bring your triplet over and we'll put it to the test. My Exploder will beat it in the 1/4 mile, beat it 0-60, and beat it in a trailer towing contest. And finally the subject of reliability. Why don't you pull out last years CR car buyers guide. About the only GM product in the lineup with even an average reliability rating is the Burb. Yet the old model Exploder was at least average, and was a recommended model.
Why is it you are here anyway? You might want to learn how to spell (or at least learn how to use the spell checker) although I think it quite ironic that such a "Ford junkie" as yourself is constantly referring to his vehicle as an "ExploDer" instead of an "ExploRer". You obviously mean to do that since you can always edit it (for 30 minutes anyway) if you post it wrong.
I personally chose my Bravada because I don't like the new Explorer. I almost bought a 2001 last summer as I had a 1998 Blazer LT and, although it was a great car - no problems the whole time - I liked the Explorers styling better. They said "wait a new one is coming". Then I drove the thing. I cannot believe you are seriously saying a car that sounds so "tinny" when you close the doors is better than the luxury SUVs that the General came out with. My choice was simple - I wanted a LUXURIOUS SUV without the "truck-like" feel and wanted all the goodies. When you compare things that really matter to me - the standard and optional items - it only made sense to get the Bravada. Quite honestly, I wouldn't have an Explorer now because I think of it as an SUV for someone who cannot afford something better.
The only reason you could be here is to try and get a rise out of GM owners. You are clearly blowing a lot of hot air in your post.
There is no way you are getting 16 mpg in the city alone. The thing is rated by Ford at 14 which is probably generous. As for looks, subjective. Side by side, the Ford looks dull and boring. Sales may be brisk with the new model but they are disappointing, Ford even stated they were. Reliability of Ford is a joke. While not horrible, as a manufacturer they lag behind GM now and if you check www.jdpower.com, you will see the proof. CR gets it's data from consumers directly which is not as accurate and hence flawed.
No point in arguing with you further... drive your Ford and be happy. It's a decent truck and I'm sure it will serve you well. Just don't ramble on about how your truck is superior cause it isn't.
CR gets it's data from readers and some of the samples are very small. J D Power does random surveys to people who really own and have experienced the cars. They also have consistent sample sizes. J D Power has much more reliable data than CR.
have you ever received and participated in the consumer reports survey? how does jd power do their survey, by telephone, mail, or in person? i have done the consumer report survey but the only thing i know about power is on tv or literature at a car dealership
In my opinion, there is no way that any Exploder is better than these new SUV's. Sure, many reviewers do say that the new one is "Much improved over the previous version", but that's really not saying much at all. They look boxy, are built like tin cans, everything rattles, and the inside is lightyears beyond cheap. The triplets aren't perfect, but they are in a different world than any Ford piece of junk.
As for sales, I think Ford is getting a little hard-up to sell these crapboxes. Here in Delaware, all the dealers have a ton in the lot but still can't sell them even with discounts. At first, I did see a lot more of these new 2002 Fords than I did any of the GM's. Lately though, I am seeing more and more Trailblazers and Envoys out cruising that were just bought. I've already seen the commercials with Ford offering 2.9% financing and someone here said that they also have a $500 incentive. However, just on the TV beside me, I saw a commercial that stated the following in bold letters and voice:
"Plus, an extra $750 Loyalty Rebate to all Explorer, Durango, and Jeep owners."
Come on now, this really is showing how SLOW Explorers are moving. GM has virtually no incentives, and they seem to have no trouble moving them off the lots.
I will try to track down where I got the info and let you know where to find it. I believe it was some web page describing technical details on the I6. I know for certain that the sleeves are iron, because it was a big issue for me and I wouldn't have purchased an all aluminum engine and would have passed on an I6 based vehicle if it didn't have liners. Iron is important for cylinders because it is porous and holds oil like a sponge. Aluminum does not. The result of the porosity is that the oil cannot be mechanically removed (only chemically). During cold starts, the oil retained in the cylinder walls by the iron keeps everything lubricated until the oil pressure sprays oil on the cylinder walls. Therefore, the engine lasts longer.
As for the mating mechanism between the sleeves and block, it will take me some time to relocate the story that I read. My take on this is that they cast the aluminum block with very high precision (techniques they learned from Saturn, lost wax method), minimize the machining needed to produce an extremely tight tolerance cylinder, and then insert the cryo-cooled iron sleeve which forms a virtually perfect welded interface when the sleeve comes back to room-temp. The main benefit of this is that the coolant passages are entirely contained in the aluminum block eliminating gaskets and risk of leaking. The thermal interface between the sleeves and block is so perfect that they don't need the coolant to surround the sleeve.
The modular methodology of constructing this type of engine block arrangement seems to make sense. They can make/machine close to perfect sleeves, and they can make/machine close to perfect blocks; and they can do this separately which makes repeatability easier. Then they solve the mating issue with this new technique.
Just found this forum so I have not read alot of previous posting, but since I had the TB here is some minor and major problems I have experienced. 1. a tinny, audible sound coming from the dash where it meets the windshield, this sound can be heard on every little bump in the road. 2. with the moon roof wide open and travelling at higher speeds the flap in front of the moon roof vibrates to the point I have to close the moon roof. 3. about 5 times in the last week the transmission seems to be stuck in 1st, the engine just revs up and there is little power until I put the gear shift into 3rd to correct it.
I am taking the vehicle in next week for these problems just hoping someone might have some insight on these problems before I see GM service
Got a JD Power survey in May 2001 for my 2000 Intrigue which was bought in March 2000. It was a very detailed survey covering everything from the car itself to the dealership experience and the servicing it had. It was an 8 pager that came in the mail and returned the same way.
I do not dismiss what CR does completely, but their data collection is not great and what you read there should be taken with a grain of salt. No data is perfect and testing is open to all sorts of inconsistancies. Such is life.
I've passed over a few posts regarding the Explorer...Exploder, whoever, whatever.
Interesting that there is a Ford advocate in a GM forum...must have an inferiority complex if there here trolling this section...or is that rolling over in this section? Is the roll over still a Ford Option?
As an avid test n tune racer at National Trails in Ohio during the season, I've pulled a 15.765 @ 87.1 mph with only 2500 miles on the beast...yet to see an explorer do that. Better yet, ask the road rager in a V8 Ford that tried to pass me on the right from about 70mph yesterday....took him to just over 100mph with a several SUV lead on him...needless to say, he died back and didn't even try. Probably read too many magazine tests and thinks ink and paper is real world. Damn these new I-6's scream up top...GM VTEC ain't all that bad!!
The third row of seat thing...sure, Ford has it. I barely fit in the darn things & I'm only 5'9" @ 165lbs. It would do in a pinch, but you'll have no place for your stuff. I wouldn't subject my family or coworkers to sitting there.
GM could have done that...but they are waiting to do it right. 02 will have an extended version with plenty of room and a V8 option for those that feel they need it. Nice thing is it's yet another choice, where Ford makes you jump to the Expedition for more room. No thanks. Too big for my tastes.
Overall, with three versions/makes of our three vs Fords Explorer, we have plenty of choices that Ford can't offer.
All in all are they close in the end...sure.
I'll give the new Explorer credit for having good brakes, little sportier handling and for marketing of course, but that didn't cut it for me. Sportier handling around curves wasn't by much and it made the thing ride noticably harsher.
I reviewed and drove both and chose the Trailblazer for it's style. Of the Olds, GMC and Chevy, I just like the TB. Way better than the Explorers plain Jane look. And the colors....all I see is that damn ugly grey green on the new Fords. Make some blues, reds and greens for #$@# sake.
The third row of seats...said it already....small and it looks as if Ford tried too hard.
The engines...old hat. Why not go all out improve the V6. At least they improved the V8 a little.
Ground clearance is about 1" more, but then regardless...adding running boards will kill that and not to mention that when motor trend tested it in snow in June 01 issue...the explorer became stuck....another poor tire choice. At least they haven't lost any tread yet.
My last little look had to do with price. Ford sure is proud of their new baby. By about $3k more than my LTZ.
Enjoy your Ford....I'm sure you'll be happy....heck you better be....it's too late!
Comments
GM has employed some technological advances with this brand new engine (note: this inline 6 engine is new, not the technology of an inline 6). Inline motors should be more reliable but that's not the rule. For example, there is one head and head gasket on an inline motor but two on a V shaped motor (more parts to fail)...that's one example of why an inline 6 inherently is more reliable (but it doesn't always work out that way).
However the rear end (been totally replaced), the transmission not shifting right. The AC not working. Power mirrors and power seat moving at random, and a few other weird things happening make me wonder why I decided to buy this TB.
The TB is going in the shop tomorrow will post the results of the repairs when I get it back. Anyone with similar problems I would enjoy hearing from you.
The work around I've found so far is to press the driver 2 button then press driver 1 and the mirrors will return to the correct position. I also changed the setting for Seat Position Recall to active on Key insert. I'll be bringing it back to the dealer again to see what else they can do.
Because the mirrors move while the vehicle is in motion and I believe this can compromise safety, I've filed the issue with the NHTSA.
If you have the DIC system you have two trip odometers. To see them press the "odo" button on the steering wheel (not the one on the instrument panel), it's the one that is on the left top (above the one for fuel data).
Tinting.
Many states do not allow after market tinting on the front windows. It's dangerous both for visibility and for law enforcement. There are no manufacturers that provide a dark tint for the windshield or front side windows.
You are getting two things mixed up but you still may have a problem.
First: What the Onstar person told you was in reference to the "free minutes" for the cell phone use of the Onstar system. As on most cell phone systems, minutes expire. You have to buy minutes to use the cell phone feature each month.
Second: You have a year of Standard or Premium Onstar service included with your vehicle (depending on the option package you chose). That includes the Onstar features but has nothing to do with the cell phone feature. If you are having a problem it's because the dealer did not set it up (or set it up properly).
Did the dealer "set-up" the Onstar system when you got the vehicle? That is, did you sit in the vehicle and "talk" to Onstar for about 10 minutes giving information about yourself and the vehicle with the dealer? If not, then they have to in order to get the service. If that is the case, it will be a year from when it is set up, so you won't "lose" any time.
If interested in what's legal in your state or province, see:
http://www.pcisys.net/~bpc/auto_law/tint/ (Click on State/Province Name to read the actual laws where provided)
and
http://www.gilafilms.com/Customcut/tintlaws.html
Here in Colorado we have a two-phase law:
You can either have 27% tint on all windows, or ANY darkness on windows behind the driver with NO tint on front windows. However, the local shops here are legally allowed to put a 30-35% tint on front passenger glass w/the factory rear tint so it's lighter than the rear glass, but it still affords some glare and heat reduction.
Can any owners out there confirm or rebut these findings?
Fortunately I had just picked up my Seville STS two weeks earlier so it was "old hat".
Also, if you've set you DIC settings (different for Driver 1 and Driver 2) for Tilt Mirror in Reverse for Passenger, Driver, or Both, your mirrors will travel to the Tilt Mirror position.
My Envoy was clunking against the stops in reverse, so I just programmed in the position I wanted. On page 2-57 of the Envoy manual (the others in the trio may be different) states, "To change the preselected tilt position, adjust the mirrors to the desired position while the vehicle is in REVERSE (R). When the vehicle is shifted out of REVERSE (R), this new position is saved in memory as the tilt position." Now my mirrors work just like I want.
I hope this helps.
Any way, thanks anjin_nav, I will give it a try and attempt to reset the mirrors. Will keep you posted.
-Alan
hotshot7 Could be just me, but I've listened to both Bose and non-bose and I'd get the Bose if I were you. I did it on my GTP and loved it and with the TB...it's 10x better than my Pontiac was. Much richer than stock, better lows and real clear. I love music and would hate each drive if I didn't get the Bose System. I can live without the changer though.
tim
http://www.iwaynet.net/~tlauro/go-cars/trailblazer/1-main-page.html
any conclusion on the rise in temps while at idle? My guess is it's normal and something to live with, but I do wish it wouldn't raise up in temp like that. Odd design IMO. Flaw actually.
the door Rattle...I had it too on washboard roads. The dealer adjusted the rear drivers door and now it's, well....Like a Rock as Chevy states.
tim
http://www.iwaynet.net/~tlauro/go-cars/trailblazer/1-main-page.html
Not big deal as the dealer fixed it right away and even gave me a demo LTZ to drive but:
A week or so ago, according to the dealer, the linkage connecting the shifter to the tranny came loose, thus I found myself unable to get the car in Park, reverse or Overdrive. Just D3, 2, 1.
Pretty scary considering I was parked head first! Had to push her out of the spot.
Anyway, anyone else have this happen?
tim
http://www.iwaynet.net/~tlauro/go-cars/trailblazer/1-main-page.html
Anyway, I wrestled with the mirrors a lot myself, especially when I thought the mirrors weren't adjusting properly. After some experimentation, I found that the greatest source of variation in the mirrors was ME. I would get in and sit in a different position almost every time I drove. It's a fact that after sleeping we're all a little taller, so your mirrors might appear aimed downward in the morning. Then after slouching all day over a computer's keyboard, I found myself slouching while driving home, making the mirrors appear adjusted too high. After a couple of long drives (240 miles), I even found my posture changed over time. That's not to say something couldn't be wrong with your mirrors, but get them adjusted and tweak them to meet YOUR changes in posture. That revelation sure helped my state of mind.
As for the Bose system, hotshot7, I'm not much of an audiophile, so I make a pretty poor judge. The regular speakers seem pretty good to me. However, Bose has a decent reputation out there, and a lot of my friends who CAN tell the difference in sound quality between a CD and an MP3 file tell me the Bose is a much better speaker. Also, with the Bose system, you'll get the adaptive sound that "listens" to the vehicle and adds the appropriate frequencies as your driving environment changes. For example, as your speed increases and you get more tire noise, the Bose system is supposed to increase amplitude of the appropriate frequencies in your music that would normally be drowned out by the tires. I've read a number of comments in these forums from those who said they couldn't hear the difference, but that is exactly the point!
Finally, (and forgive the long post) in their 2001 Death Valley Torture Test, September issue, Motor Trend gave the Envoy A/C a pretty good review for cooling the vehicle from 120 to 88.4 (degrees F) at idle after five minutes. That's not too bad, especially when you consider the engine is producing the least power at idle. You may notice your fan blowing a little slower (remember, the electrical power is drawn off the engine, too), and maybe the air blown is a little warmer (the compressor gets its power straight off the engine), but remember, at idle is just when the engine has the least power to spare. Also, you might have the auto A/C, and it may simply be decreasing its cooling intensity automatically. Unfortunately, that's just when we, the driver, seem to want the most from our A/C!
Just some food for thought....
This is what happens:
1. Reset mirrors and program driver 1 position according to the instructions in the owners manual on page 1-3.
2. Get out of car and lock it.
3. Open all doors by pressing unlock button on driver 1 key fob twice.
4. Mirrors move to random position
5. Get in car and press button for driver 1 seat on door panel. Mirrors will sometimes return to original position, but most of the time move to yet another random position.
6. Press driver 2 button on door panel, then immediately press driver 1 button - Mirrors return to original positions programmed in step 1.
All this happens with car in park. To make matters worse, the mirrors will move while the vehicle is in motion if Seat Position Recall is turned on in the DIC. The driver mirror will micro-adjust to an extreme inward position so I can no longer see the lane next me. All I see is truck body. The passenger mirror micro-adjusts to an extreme outward and upward position so I can no longer see any portion of my truck body in the mirror, only sky. With the setting turned off, the mirrors remain fixed.
CHEVROLET TRAILBLAZER
-Great, muscular, eye-catching good looks, especially a black LTZ.
-Very good features for dollar, and best value of bunch.
-Availability of LT w/ cloth, Bose, and Auto air.
-From what I have read and seen, very cheap, downmarket plastic interior parts, especially dash.
-Can't get an LTZ with cloth; I've read about other's mentioning here too. Wonder if it could be special ordered or if dealer would swap seats with an LT for either a discount or a slight charge?
GMC ENVOY
-Nice, Euro-like styling.
-Availability of air suspension.
-Nicest looking interior with chrome and carbon fiber or wood trim.
-Standard 17" wheels & Michelin tires.
-Can't get an SLE with Bose or Auto Air.
OLDSMOBILE BRAVADA
-Elegant, Old's car-like styling.
-Standard air suspension & many other features that are optional on others.
-Comfy looking interior, and from what I hear, higher quality materials inside than the others.
-Great 5-year/60,000 mile warranty, even though the Old's brand will be no more.
-Can't get cloth as an option.
I was just about to ask if the Bose was worth getting over the base stereo, and it seems that it is. Too bad you can't get it in an Envoy SLE though. Also, what are some of your thoughts on both the coil and air-spring rear suspensions? I've read that the air springs ride even smoother than the coils and I like the air hose in back that comes with it. However, I've been reading different reviews, and while some say the air suspension is a great feature that makes the ride incredible, others say they'd stick with the coils do to the sloppy handling and roll with the air springs. Any thoughts? What made you pick which of the three new ute's from GM that you did?
The mirror problem sounds like a failure in the position sensor or the feedback loop from the sensor to the instrumentation computer or a faulty ground circuit to the sensor. The failure could be intermittent, so that the computer's programmed value in memory could be corrupted sometimes, or the reading the computer is taking could be corrupted sometimes. If the mirror position sensor has a bad ground circuit, noise could cause the reading to drift which would tell the computer to compensate for the drift - and that would explain the micro adjustments until the mirror reaches its physical limits.
The air suspension system provides a smoother ride than the coils but, according to Car and Driver, could make passengers car sick with the ride it provides. Personally, since I plan on keeping my vehicle a long time, I would be afraid of the maintenance cost when/if the air bladders go out. A Bravada owner posted a few months back his air suspension nightmare...one of the bladders blew out and caused thousands in damage to his SUV (GM replaced the vehicle).
tim
As a recent Exploder purchaser, I really enjoyed the CR review. But I enjoy the comments I see on this board even more. Stuff like "I'll trust CR for reviews on washers/driers, but not when it come to cars". Those types of statements are completely ludicrous, and contain no common sense. CR tests ALL products in the most scientific, unbiased, and consistent manner of any source...doesn't matter what the product is...they will be both truthful and consistent. They are for the most part completely objective.
As for vehicle owners, now we have a different story. We tend to be subjective, and emotional. Only makes sense as we just spent thousands of dollars on our new cars, and we want to justify our purchases.
My take on the story:
Exploder beat the GM triplets, and in just about every category. It also beat all the others with the exception of the Acura, Lexus, and Benz, but none of us cared about those since we wanted "truck-like" SUVs, not to mention they're like 10K more than we had to pay. The Exploder has a 3rd seat...do any of you guys have one? We've used ours three times in the two months we've owned it. Exploder handles better...I kinda like that. Exploder brakes better. Exploder has a more comfortable interior. Near as I can tell the only thing the triplets did better was the ride, and that was compromised with a load. And to add insult to injury, my Exploder with the V8 and tow pack will accelerate better, tow 1200 lbs more, and gets better MPG. But to absolutely make matters worse, I suspect when the CR reliability ratings come in, the Exploder will be rated average (typical of Ford), while the triplets will be rated worse or much worse than average (typical of GM). That part is pure speculation on my part, but based on the traffic on this board compared to the Exploder board, I'm thinking it's a pretty safe bet.
Enjoy your triplets ya'all...I'm enjoying the heck out of our superior Exploder.
No action on the Explorer board because no one is buying them. The local lot has tons in stock.
As far as CR's reviews are concerned, they are far from unbiased...they have always had a very clear bias against GM products. Sometimes it is warranted, but to continually put down everything the General makes sounds as if they have an axe to grind. This makes CR's opinion worthless (IMHO), especially when the automotive press has heaped praise on the triplets.
Finally, Quality is not job 1 at Ford, nor has it ever been. Remember, Ford is the Klingon word for crap!!
By the way, while I am thinking about getting a new commuter vehicle, I don't have either an Explorer or one of the GM triplets at the moment, though I have test driven both.
Also--I understand that the latest method of inserting cast iron sleeves is to place them in a mold and the moltant Aluminum flows around them forming the completed block. There are engineered external rings made into the liners that forms an even better bond as the engine heats up. In other words the difference in the coefficient of thermal expansion between the cast iron and the aluminum serves to tighten up the liners within the aluminum block as the temperature rises.
I personally chose my Bravada because I don't like the new Explorer. I almost bought a 2001 last summer as I had a 1998 Blazer LT and, although it was a great car - no problems the whole time - I liked the Explorers styling better. They said "wait a new one is coming". Then I drove the thing. I cannot believe you are seriously saying a car that sounds so "tinny" when you close the doors is better than the luxury SUVs that the General came out with. My choice was simple - I wanted a LUXURIOUS SUV without the "truck-like" feel and wanted all the goodies. When you compare things that really matter to me - the standard and optional items - it only made sense to get the Bravada. Quite honestly, I wouldn't have an Explorer now because I think of it as an SUV for someone who cannot afford something better.
There is no way you are getting 16 mpg in the city alone. The thing is rated by Ford at 14 which is probably generous. As for looks, subjective. Side by side, the Ford looks dull and boring. Sales may be brisk with the new model but they are disappointing, Ford even stated they were. Reliability of Ford is a joke. While not horrible, as a manufacturer they lag behind GM now and if you check www.jdpower.com, you will see the proof. CR gets it's data from consumers directly which is not as accurate and hence flawed.
No point in arguing with you further... drive your Ford and be happy. It's a decent truck and I'm sure it will serve you well. Just don't ramble on about how your truck is superior cause it isn't.
Ford = Found on the road dead
Crap approved by Jac 'The Knife' Nasser. The most disgusting automotive company in the whole entire world!!!
NO FORDS IN MY DRIVEAWAY!!!
As for sales, I think Ford is getting a little hard-up to sell these crapboxes. Here in Delaware, all the dealers have a ton in the lot but still can't sell them even with discounts. At first, I did see a lot more of these new 2002 Fords than I did any of the GM's. Lately though, I am seeing more and more Trailblazers and Envoys out cruising that were just bought. I've already seen the commercials with Ford offering 2.9% financing and someone here said that they also have a $500 incentive. However, just on the TV beside me, I saw a commercial that stated the following in bold letters and voice:
"Plus, an extra $750 Loyalty Rebate to all Explorer, Durango, and Jeep owners."
Come on now, this really is showing how SLOW Explorers are moving. GM has virtually no incentives, and they seem to have no trouble moving them off the lots.
iron, because it was a big issue for me and I wouldn't have purchased an all aluminum engine and would have passed on an I6 based vehicle if it didn't have liners. Iron is important for cylinders because it is porous and holds oil like a sponge. Aluminum does not. The result of
the porosity is that the oil cannot be mechanically removed (only chemically). During cold starts, the oil retained in the cylinder walls by the iron keeps everything lubricated until the oil pressure sprays oil on the cylinder walls. Therefore, the engine lasts longer.
As for the mating mechanism between the sleeves and block, it will take me some time to relocate the story that I read. My take on this is that they cast the aluminum block with very high precision (techniques they learned from Saturn, lost wax method), minimize the machining needed to produce an extremely tight tolerance cylinder, and then insert the cryo-cooled iron sleeve which forms a virtually perfect welded interface when the sleeve comes back to room-temp. The main benefit of this is that the coolant passages are entirely contained in the aluminum block eliminating gaskets and risk of leaking. The thermal interface between the sleeves and block is so perfect that they don't need the coolant to surround the sleeve.
The modular methodology of constructing this type of engine block arrangement seems to make sense. They can make/machine close to perfect sleeves, and they can make/machine close to perfect blocks; and they can do this separately which makes repeatability easier. Then they solve the mating issue with this new technique.
1. a tinny, audible sound coming from the dash where it meets the windshield, this sound can be heard on every little bump in the road.
2. with the moon roof wide open and travelling at higher speeds the flap in front of the moon roof vibrates to the point I have to close the moon roof.
3. about 5 times in the last week the transmission seems to be stuck in 1st, the engine just revs up and there is little power until I put the gear shift into 3rd to correct it.
I am taking the vehicle in next week for these problems just hoping someone might have some insight on these problems before I see GM service
I do not dismiss what CR does completely, but their data collection is not great and what you read there should be taken with a grain of salt. No data is perfect and testing is open to all sorts of inconsistancies. Such is life.
Interesting that there is a Ford advocate in a GM forum...must have an inferiority complex if there here trolling this section...or is that rolling over in this section? Is the roll over still a Ford Option?
As an avid test n tune racer at National Trails in Ohio during the season, I've pulled a 15.765 @ 87.1 mph with only 2500 miles on the beast...yet to see an explorer do that. Better yet, ask the road rager in a V8 Ford that tried to pass me on the right from about 70mph yesterday....took him to just over 100mph with a several SUV lead on him...needless to say, he died back and didn't even try. Probably read too many magazine tests and thinks ink and paper is real world. Damn these new I-6's scream up top...GM VTEC ain't all that bad!!
The third row of seat thing...sure, Ford has it. I barely fit in the darn things & I'm only 5'9" @ 165lbs. It would do in a pinch, but you'll have no place for your stuff. I wouldn't subject my family or coworkers to sitting there.
GM could have done that...but they are waiting to do it right. 02 will have an extended version with plenty of room and a V8 option for those that feel they need it. Nice thing is it's yet another choice, where Ford makes you jump to the Expedition for more room. No thanks. Too big for my tastes.
Overall, with three versions/makes of our three vs Fords Explorer, we have plenty of choices that Ford can't offer.
All in all are they close in the end...sure.
I'll give the new Explorer credit for having good brakes, little sportier handling and for marketing of course, but that didn't cut it for me. Sportier handling around curves wasn't by much and it made the thing ride noticably harsher.
I reviewed and drove both and chose the Trailblazer for it's style. Of the Olds, GMC and Chevy, I just like the TB. Way better than the Explorers plain Jane look. And the colors....all I see is that damn ugly grey green on the new Fords. Make some blues, reds and greens for #$@# sake.
The third row of seats...said it already....small and it looks as if Ford tried too hard.
The engines...old hat. Why not go all out improve the V6. At least they improved the V8 a little.
Ground clearance is about 1" more, but then regardless...adding running boards will kill that and not to mention that when motor trend tested it in snow in June 01 issue...the explorer became stuck....another poor tire choice. At least they haven't lost any tread yet.
My last little look had to do with price. Ford sure is proud of their new baby. By about $3k more than my LTZ.
Enjoy your Ford....I'm sure you'll be happy....heck you better be....it's too late!