Lincoln LS

sclark8 · February 2001

I have a 2001 LS8 Sport with the CD-6 Alpine stereo. IMHO the Alpine is an outstanding unit and has plenty of power. The weak link in the factory system is the speakers.

I installed 4 Polk DX7 Speakers. There is plenty of volume available and goes as loud as I want to hear it. The Polk 3-way speakers add midrange, highs and clean bass, which are sorely missing in the Lincoln speakers. The difference is like night and day.

If you install the speakers, yourself you can get the upgrade for under $200.00. It takes less than an hour to remove all 4 Lincoln speakers and replace them with the Polks.

Make sure you get some speaker wiring adapters from Crutchfield and save your old ones so you can use them on your next LS.

I purchased mine from Smile Photo for 89.95 a pair at:

http://smilephotovideo.com/results.cfm?store=carstereo&category=Speakers

medphys · February 2001

Does anyone know who makes double adjustable shocks and struts for the LS? Also, what would be a brake pad upgrade?

Thanks,

[img]http://www.delta-scca.org/Images/Feb11/couvillon_small.jpg[/img]

Medphys
'00 LS8
FS #3

heyjewel · February 2001

On the free CD changer deal with the sport pkg: My sticker showed no such discount. **But** today my dealer called and said LM just sent them a revised sticker with, you guessed it, a $605.00 deduction for the CD changer. They're going to cut me a check for the difference! Course, the check won't be for $605, but rather for my 2 year lease portion of that, somewhat over $200. Thanks Lincoln!

Maybe I'll use the $200 for some new speakers, seems to be just the right amount based on the previous post! I agree that the factory system is not quite as good as I'd like, but I do have high standards. My system also begins to distort, especialy in the low end, when I crank it up above 7 or 8 bars or so. Scott: you say just one hour to install 4 speakers ??!! :>) That'd be great. Did you have to remove all 4 door panels, or just the speaker grilles?

Now to the chronic LS critic - you're wrong about at least one thing: my 2001 LS does have pretensioners on all rear seat belts. You do have a point about rear air bags, I'd like to see them as at least an option. I would have bought them. But really, think about it, why don't you listen to your wife, do yourself and your kids (and us!) a favor and get that C-class? I'm sure it'll be perfect in every way and you'll hae nothing to complain about. Oh, maybe that's the point ...

Thanks

mikemeiches · February 2001

I have a Mercedes and want to get a club going similar to Brians where Edmunds lets you recruit and charge people $35 a yer to belong. My goal is $35 x 3,000 members or $105,000 per year.

Please email me at: mikemeiches@aol.com

Thank you

giowa · February 2001

Be nice. And please make sure you have your facts right before insulting others. Constructive criticism, where warranted, is hardly being a constant critic. I love my LS8 Sport w/AdvanceTrac. But it isn't perfect and it can be improved. It has certain shortcomings that can and should be rectified. Safety features is one of these areas. I just would like to see the vehicle improved. A platform should get better with age. That is why I want a V-8 manual. Or is that being too critical?

Can you refer me (us) to anything published indicating rear seat belts have pretensioners? All of the 2000 & 2001 LS material I have does not appear to indicate this. The LS does have "3 point safety belts for all five seating positions", comprised of...

"Front, inertia reel, with grabbers, pre-tensioners and height adjustable mounts"

"Rear, three inertia reel, lap and diagonal".

This is from Lincoln's own material. Two pretensioners, both up front. No mention of any in rear. I'm glad I have the '00 LS8, at least I have the "Rear seats--adjustable head restraints." Safer and people in the know can tell I have a '00 LS8 from a glance.

heyjewel · February 2001

Brian;

I am going to join the club. I realize the time and effort you've put in and the value of what you're doing setting up events like LS Mania and working with aftermarketers and LM HQ for the potential benefit of all. I'll check the website for the details.

Thanks

George Autumn Red 5 Speed LS

ezaircon4jc · February 2001

Thanks! I think I finally get it :-). Your participation here is GREATLY appreciated!
Michael

heyjewel · February 2001

My advice for rear seat pretensioners is above.

ezaircon4jc · February 2001

If we want a truly safe car, we could all opt for a NASCAR car. They can be had for a little over $100k. The point being there needs to be a balance between affordability and the possibility of needing a certain feature. My kids are 18 and 10. In all the miles we've driven, well over half a million, I've needed a spare once and my wife was hit on the left front fender (slow speed) once. I have not needed any type of airbag. If airbags were offered in the abundance Volvo and BMW offers them, I'm sure most of us would not be driving this wonderful car as the cost would be prohibative. I'll gladly give up foot, knee, ear, eyeball, etc. airbags for a still very safe, affordable car. BTW, all those airbags don't help Volvo and BMW keep up with Lincoln in NHSTA's crash tests.

giowa · February 2001

You're confusing me. Your "advice" in #159 about the '01 LS having standard rear pre-tensioners is "above", at #154? But #154 is just you asserting something as fact but with no source. Advice and facts are different things. Can you show us something substantive showing '01s have rear pre-tensioners. If I'm wrong, I'd like to be corrected. Methinks you are confusing "3-point belts" with "pre-tensioners".

giowa · February 2001

IF you need 'em, you'll want 'em and you won't care what the price is during that kind of accident. Dale's death pointed out the value of a good working seat belt.

Why would Lincoln want to fall well behind BMW, MB, Volvo, Saab, etc. in regard to important safety features that really aren't that expensive? If A4s and Passats can have 'em, let along Saturns or '02 Explorers (curtain airbags), then why not an LS8?

Check out NHTSA crash test results. Volvo S80 received 5 stars all around: both front and both side. Lincoln LS did receive one 4 star, think for front side impact.

medphys · February 2001

First you should go to the Mercedes board, where you might get a bite. Obviously your marketing skills are lacking or you wouldn't be asking Lincoln guys to give you advice. Then you should attempt some noble effort on behalf of your Mercedes brethren, like being an unpaid liason between them and the German engineers. After you have established some credibility with both groups you may have a shot, but don't quit your day job. If everyone "over there" gives you the cold shoulder....buy an LS, or just come back for counseling

Medphys
'00 LS8
FS #3

stanny1 · February 2001

At $105,000 a year, you would probably be underpaid if you put in the time and effort to pull it off and have the knowledge and skill to integrate the nerd and car-nut personas required.
People like Brian are pretty rare. Oh, I didn't mention the true enthusiasm necessary. No amount of compensation can buy that compassion.

ottos · February 2001

Would yall buy the LS again? Why would it make a better choice than a comparably-priced 330i? I think the LS has good value, but all these problems (minor and major) might end up costing me enjoyment and satisfaction. What are these cars like after 50k miles? Problems like engine and transmission calibrations that aren't robust (requiring PCM reflashing) do not compare well with competitive cars that do not have similar problems, or problems of the same significance.

3-series are apparently reliable after many miles, as Consumer Reports' data on used cars shows, as well as Edmund's. So how do you feel LS's compare?

When I buy my car, all that matters to me is reliability, lack of major problems, and performance. I don't really care about prestige, the number of luxury features, or the minor difference in size. Which one?

johnnylinc · February 2001

WOW--I never would've thought that would happen! That's cool, and speaks for your dealer's integrity, especially if he called you first. I'm guessing that this is NOT retroactive to Sept. 1 when I took delivery.

Regarding speakers, you do have to remove the door panel. Go to LLSOC and click on the FAQ link; there's a good explanation of a speaker swap that was written and performed by airconhall--it's the first item in the list.

I totally agree w/you, as I've said before, that the stereo is lacking; I listened to Scott's speakers at Mania and they were a definite improvement. Still haven't swapped mine yet, but it's on my list. Aftermarket five-by-sevens aren't as prevalent as six-by-nines, but there are still lots of choices available--let us know what brand & model you choose.

ezaircon4jc · February 2001

I think you'll find that for a first year car the LS has relatively few problems. I have the V6, the same "basic" engine as is in my '96 Sable. I just turned 100k on that car and just today replaced the battery! The engine is as strong as day 1. Most of our issues are really nit-pick or were corrected pretty quickly when the problem area was found i.e. the radio, window mechanism, fogged headlights. I would buy another in less than a heartbeat! I can't wait to be in a position to have 2 LS' in my garage!

Michael, who can't wait for his K&N to arrive!

rcupka · February 2001

George,
I wouldn't count on changing all four door speakers in an hour. The trim panels need to come off, you'll need to be very careful when disengaging the pins that snap into the door inner panel, and don't forget the screws on the bottom. Also, treat the water shields gently it is important for sealing out air, water, and dust.

I would plan on an afternoon to do it right (more if Samuel Adams helps)! Glad to hear you are enjoying the car!

Dick

jerrym3 · February 2001

At the risk of having my heritage held up for ridicule, did Motorweek get their hands on a real slow test car, or did I read incorrectly that the LS V6 manual tested 0-60 and quarter mile times about the same as the Ford Escape? And, the Acura MDX was much quicker?
Granted, it's not the LS 8, although, there have been more than one post where drivers claim the manual LS 6 is "highly competitive" with the LS 8.
And granted, the LS 6 will leave the other two on a road course, but that's to be expected. The straight line acceleration tie (and loss) is not.
Hopefully, this car was not up to par with other LS V6 models and/or the driver wasn't up to par either.

ezaircon4jc · February 2001

Well, the LS is 40 ftlb's short in torque and about 30 horses shy of the Acura. As to the Escape, I'll wager the LS weighs just a few pounds more than an empty mini truck.

ezaircon4jc · February 2001

Other cars with comperable HP ie. Toyota Solara, Chrysler Sebring/Cirrus, have comperable 0-60 times. Try to compare apples to apples. I'll wager a Corvette will blow an LS away 0-60 too.

jroger19 · February 2001

I have not seen the Motorweek article but I can tell you that the 3000cc Escape is pretty lively--it is a real surprise. I drive an LS manual, and it is not lacking in power either, in my opinion. For the enthusiast, the manual is the best choice, as acceleration is very close to the 8 and balance is slightly better. Plus you have the control of changing your own gears, using the gears to decelerate, etc. Having driven the 8 sport for about 12k miles, and my manual for 2k, my choice for the automotive enthusiast is the manual.

On another subject, please remember that if any of you are having problems with your LS that the dealer cannot resolve, feel free to contact me at jroger19@ford.com. We stand behind the LS and want every one of you to be very happy with your car. If for some reason you are not, please contact me.

And as always, if you see a dealer offering an LS with a cloth or vinyl roof, please let me know!

ezaircon4jc · February 2001

Back by popular demand, the instructions for the 2nd outlet are in post #1011.

Michael

johnnylinc · February 2001

The 2002 LS is scheduled to begin production on July 16; same week as last year. If the ordering process remains the same, I'd expect dealers to have their LS order books around June 1.

The T-Bird goes into production in the Wixom plant on May 21. Some magazines speculated that it would have 260-270 horsepower from the 3.9 V8, but the Ford data sheet lists T-Bird horsepower at 252 and torque at 267, same as the current LS. The data sheet indicates that the rear gear is 3.58; that, in combination with slightly lighter weight, should mean that the 'Bird will be just a bit quicker than the LS. AdvanceTrac is not shown as being available.

My guess is that most T-Bird owners'll be doing an awful lot of top-down boulevard cruising and not much canyon running. It's a pretty car, though, and would be a nice garage companion for the LS. Think I'd put a Lightning in the third stall...

leadfoot4 · February 2001

Just my $.02 worth on airbags....Maybe I'm a Neandrathal in my thinking when it comes to passive safety equipment, but give me a good seat belt to hold me in a supportive bucket seat, so I can do the job. Along with that, give me either good acceleration, good braking, and/or a good suspension set-up that allows me to AVOID the crash in the first place, and I'm a happy man. I feel that avoidence is the best safety device there is. I'm now donning the Nomex and goggles...
In closing, I took the LS in this past Friday to get the "check engine light" dilemma taken care of. The dealer installed a new brake light switch/cruise control switch, along with whatever the computer adjustment is, and we're back in business. The tranny re-flash is working well also.

lateralg · February 2001

I agree.

giowa · February 2001

Don't think it is a question of only being able to have one or the other. I don't see reason why the LS can't deliver both: great all around performance (braking, handling, & acceleration) plus the passive safety features which its competitors have. Can't remember anyone faulting the BMW 3 or 5 Series, MB C or E Class, Volvo S80, Saab 9-5, etc. for only delivering either passive or active safety capability.

Guess it's a question of priorities. Some posters on this subject worry about cost. But there never appears to be a shortage of posters wanting to spend large sums upgrading their stereos. And we're talking about a car that sells for $30-40K to begin with. In the scheme of life, I can easily live with the audio choices offered by Lincoln but I'd rather not have to live without safety features that most of its competitors are rapidly adding. Never heard of a stereo saving someone's life.

ronniepooh · February 2001

Seems I recall in the early/mid 80's, the Japanese produced some good, light, efficient sport cars. 280z's, early Supras...then something happened. They got big and fat with electronic doodads, so-called "safety" equipment". Then guess what. They got overpriced, heavy..sure, they were safe...but no one wanted them. Hence no more 300zx or Supras.

Isnt the jury still out on airbags and ABS? Many insurance companies stopped giving discounts on ABS because of its lack of proof of effectiveness. And if Im not mistaken, the last time I strapped the kids car seats in the back of my car, there was a sticker on each car seat warning against installing the seats in ANY location with an airbag. I also recall reading reports that a side rear airbag can kill a kid who happens to doze off with his/her head to close to the door.

Reminds me of all the idiots who apparently "must have" navigation systems these days. Whatever happened to a AAA map for those annual road trips? As far as local driving, are these people suddenly forgetting their way to work?

christoffer1 · February 2001

The issue with the radio not turning off after the door is opened was looked at by my dealer yesterday. They said the unit was defective and will be ordering a new one. I am going to see if they will swap out the glove-box 6-disc for the in dash unit while they are at it. I am guessing I will have to pay any difference in cost and replace the glove box liner.

As far as the cruise control, they have to order new switches and won't know if this fixes it until next week.

I also had the 01-01-05 reflash done. I didn't think my shift times were slow, but I did notice quite an improvement afterwards. I would suggest that if any of you have your car in for service, have it done now under warranty. Even if you think the shifts are fine, you will want to do it now versus after warranty expires or as the tranny gets slower.

And that Mobil1 sure was smooooooth this morning even in -10 degree weather.

sclark8 · February 2001

I wish Airbags were an option. They add a hefty $1000.00 a piece to the cost of a car. If they were an option, I would not order them.

I think Americans have become safety nuts. There is nothing that will save you in a high speed crash. The laws of Physics take over. Remember your Physics F=MA

I have been involved in 2 serious auto crashes in my lifetime and the bags would not have helped. In my crashes, the cars did not even have seatbelts and I was not seriously hurt.

I vote that we have a choice.

keyrow · February 2001

I guess I am a bit of a rebel as I would prefer to save the weight and cost of extraneous safety equipment. I, too, find a good seat belt and comfortable seats to be sufficient. For those who desire it, those systems ought to be available BUT AS AN OPTION and forced upon those of us who do not. As for not hearing of a stereo saving anyone, Imagine That! They aren't meant to be life saving devices; their primary purpose is to help pass the time on long trips with less fatigue by not having only tire noise as one's companion. On the other hand, I use my stereo everyday, as I suspect do many, which makes it invaluable. Plus I haven't needed a seat belt or any other passive restraint system in over 20 years. I would rather put my money where it is used rather than where it MIGHT, PERHAPS, MAYBE, SOMEDAY come in handy. Yes I am taking a chance, but that is my decision. We still do live in a mostly free society even though many would like to dictate how everyone else ought to live.

Off my soap box now.

christoffer1 · February 2001

Brian;

I tried to register yesterday for the club, but PayPal didn't seem to believe me as to where I live. So, I either registered 4 times, or didn't get registered at all.

I am in the process of relocating to another city, so after Friday, I will be in exile for about a month. Please e-mail me at christot@f-m-bank.com by Friday and let me know if I was successful in joining the brotherhood.

It amazes me that people think that the membership fees for the LLSOC is all going into Brian's pockets. First, if he gets 3000 members, that would be quite a success. I am betting that 300 true enthusiasts will sign up initially. So that is $10,500 not $105,000. Given the costs that he has surely incurred and will incur in the future to develop the web-site, keep the server running, communicate with Lincoln, schedule events, etc, etc, etc, I am sure he needs more than 300 members just to break even. Of course, if we all sign up 4 times...

akirby · February 2001

All of the PCM issues were fixed by the 2001 model year. And made available to 2000 owners as well through TSBs. Considering that this was a brand new car from the ground up I think that says a lot. There were some issues with defective parts (seat heaters, window regulators) but those seem to have been corrected.

The LS is a much larger car than the 330 so keep that in mind. But there are two reasons why you should really consider the LS over the 330:

In spite of some early problems, LS owners still absolutely LOVE this car. If we love our cars this much with problems think how much you'll LOVE yours now that they've been fixed. The car is that good.

The second reason can be found in posts 1068 and 1072. No other vehicle mfr has this type of communication channel with senior management and engineers. We know about TSBs before the dealers. We're not stuck with calling the customer service line when the dealer can't or won't fix the car. We know why parts failed and when the new parts are available. We're also able to influence future engineering and marketing decisions. How many mfrs set up a free autocross course for owners just for fun and not as a marketing/comparison tool for prospective buyers?

You may prefer the 330 and there's nothing wrong with that, but keep the things I mentioned in mind as you do the comparison.

joe166 · February 2001

I can't fathom people using the same lame excuses against airbags that were used against seat belts many years ago. "It wouldn't have helped me in that crash"--how does anyone know that? "It hurt so and so in that crash"--yeah, well, anecdotal stuff like that is awfully hard to refute, so I won't bother.

The point is that although there are certain circumstances when an airbag can cause harm which are fairly well documented such as a very short person with the seat way up, the VAST MAJORITY of occupants will be helped with airbags. That is what they are for. No safety device is fool proof. As an anecdotal endorsement, I was driving a friends Mazda Miata when I was hit by a car thief running from the owner of the car. It totalled the new Miata but all I got from it was rug burn. I have seen enough evidence from competent engineers and designers that I am a firm believer in air bags when you pay attention and do it right. If not used right then they don't help at all. As to ABS, I tend to trust the engineers who, for the most part seem to endorse them. I try to stay on top of a lot of things, but ABS and handling systems are far beyond my capabilities. I am not vain enough to substitute my judgment for that of the Ford engineers. The ones I have met are pretty darned smart in their areas of expertise.

desertguy · February 2001

I remember several hundreds of post ago that the guy from Iowa said he took a trip with his family in his 1996 Chevy Impala & left the LS at home because it was roomier, the trunk was bigger, etc. I guess safety wasn't his primary concern then as the Chevy sure isn't as safe as the LS. How about NHTSA frontal crash rating of 4 stars for driver and 2 stars for passenger in the Chevy and 5 stars for both passenger and driver in the LS? It has no seatbelt anchor adjustment and as for pre-tensioners? I dunno.

ls1bmw0 · February 2001

Today is the last day for charter membership. In about a month or so(depending on how long it takes to get them made up), all charter members will be receiving a baseball cap with the LLSOC charter member logo, a membership card barcoded with your membership number indicating your charter membership, and a window decal (inside).
The cap will be a special color that will be retired once the charter members receive them. I am doing it to ensure that the charter members will stand out at our events. (That could be good or bad depending on your viewpoint!)

As of this morning we have 72 charter members.

Brian

billincal1 · February 2001

Some people would rather fly off a cliff and shout on the way down "But it's my right to fall off this cliff!" Being disgruntled about what has been designed in to save your life speaks volumes of that person. If this guy ever finds himself in a panic crash situation, believe me, he will kiss the ground the Safety engineers walk on for the advanced lap belts, airbags, side air bags, crumple zones and any other feature they put between him and 3000 lbs of oncoming steel. Believe me, the radio is the last thing on your mind when the your life flashes before you....
Think about that next time you get your nose out of joint because "big brother" is infringing on your constitutional right to be stupid!.

But you know, he may be right, maybe we should return to the good old days of harpoon steering columns!...at least the government was out of our hair!

Bill

giowa · February 2001

Yes, I do wish my LS8 was as roomy as my '96 Impala SS, esp. in useable trunk space. But the fact is, it isn't. You are correct about the wonderful vacation I took with wife and kids to mountains of CO in my SS. Do remember that when I bought it in '96 things like side air bags and Brake Assist weren't out or only in things like BMW 7 Series or MB S-Class. SS also weighs about 600 pounds more than my LS8. Wonder what would happen if an LS8 hits head on into an SS?

I took the Impala because I couldn't go on a week vacation with all the stuff I needed to take if I went in the LS. I'm a big proponent of using the multi-link non-intrusive trunk hinges. LS needs these! (Does this make me a critic?) Also, my SS does need some miles on it. I bought her new and she only has 18,000 miles on her today. My LS8, which I bought new in 12/99, has almost 29,000 miles. I do drive the "safer" car more, when I can. The SS is a collectible; I keep her garaged. Not sure if LS ever will be; I drive her daily.

jond · February 2001

Thought I would share my experience with you in trying to get TSB 01-01-05 (the transmission reflash) installed on my LS8. Contacted dealer several weeks ago, dealer did not know anything about it. Said they would check. Called them back approx two weeks later and they said they had found the TSB and would be able to put it on my car. They said it would take about a half hour or less and I could just wait to have it done. I made an appointment to take my car in and have it done (that was today 2/28/01). Got to dealers about 7:40 this morning to have TSB installed, only thing they were to do. At 9:10, I asked what was status of my car and the response was:
1. that the computer did not work.
2 they had another tech trying it but could not get it to work
3. Ford had not called back.

Since we were long past the 30 minutes it was supposed to take to do this, I asked whether they thought they would be able to get the reflash done if I left the car with them for the day. They said they did not think so. I asked them to let me just be on my way and that is what happened. They have no idea when they will be able to do it. The service manager was apologetic, but not helpful.

I am peeved because they wasted a lot of my time and did not tell me what was going on until I started asking. I am even more upset because they apparently do not have the equipment or knowledge of how to do the reflash. Indirectly, they blame Ford (Lincoln).

While I love my LS8, with this kind of dealer service (or lack therof), I could not recommend anyone buy one, and it is not likely I will be looking for another Lincoln. While this is a "high tech" fix, I believe I have a reasonable right to expect a dealer to be able to do it.

I guess I am just going to have to put up with the transmission problem, which I consider to be unsafe, until my lease expires next year.

If anyone at Lincoln can find a dealer in my area that can actually install this TSB, I would appreciate it because I do not believe my dealer is going to pursue it. I am gone now and am sure have been forgotten.

For this reason, I am going to request that Alexander Motors in Fond du lac, WI be removed from the good service dealers list. I am afraid that I can no longer recommend them for "technical" problems, basic service is still acceptable.

If things change, I will let everyone know.

keyrow · February 2001

Yes, I do place more emphasis upon things I use everyday rather than on something I use once in 20 years, even if it is capable of saving my butt. If that makes me stupid, so be it. BTW, I have two Masters degrees (indicating incredible stupidity) and I served in Beirut so I have seen my life flash before my eyes several times and no I was not prepared to kiss the ground of those who designed/make Kevlar helmets and vests. I willingly placed my life on the line for what I believed in. If now my CHOICE is to not be forced to have SUPERFLUOUS supplemental restraint systems, it is just that, my choice. I suppose you believe those who ride motorcycles or pilot private aircraft (I do) are also loony and would want those same safety features required on those modes of transportation as well. Good Luck, but I doubt it will happen. You can encase yourself in a cocoon in an attempt to avoid the world if you wish. I prefer to take that CALCULATED RISK. Please do not get me wrong; safety is very important, it just is not my top priority. If it was I would be driving an Expedition or Suburban (or a tank). Life is a trade-off. Everyone must decide what features are necessities for himself. Let us agree to disagree but remain friends. Afterall, we both share the enjoyment of driving a fabulous vehicle.

Now where is that cliff I can drive my MANUAL LS off of? 8-)

thomas_l · February 2001

Wow - didn't expect the response! Great stuff both for and against passive safety gadgets. I too remember tooling around in my 63 Bel-air without the optional seat belts and with the rib-crusher steering wheel backed up by the all steel dashboard. Of course drum brakes and bias belted tires all around was good enough too in 1963. Come to think of it, a lot of things weren't too dangerous in 63 either! I think my issue with the MB brake assist was the "driver control" issue. With active handling systems like AdvanceTrac there is some "interference" where the machine overtakes/modifies driver input and there is a switch installed to disable it. I haven't investigated, but I think the MB brake assist is using inputs from it's version of AdvanceTrac, but is primarily a function of the ABS and cannot be disabled by the driver (again - I'm not positive about that). For that matter - the only ABS disable feature I have seen has been on 4x4 trucks/suv's.

ezaircon4jc · February 2001

All I know is that my Insurance company quit giving the ABS discount on the grounds that there is no evidence that they reduce the chance or severity of an accident. Even the engineers will tell you that ABS stops are LONGER on wet pavement than someone who can modulate the brakes. When I was learning to drive in the early 70's, I was taught to modulate the pedal to keep the tires at the edge of grip, not skidding. I understand the principle of being able to steer the car around the obstacle, but how many people actually try to avoid the danger and how many just slam on the brakes (hoping ABS will defy the laws of physics), hold on and slam into the obstacle. I venture to say that the latter happens more often than the former, IMHO.
I can live with airbags and ABS as long as they don't do more harm than good. I also don't thihk the government has any business mandating these things. I believe market forces (read you and I) will dictate which features an auto manufacturer needs to offer to stay in business, IMHO.
Michael, who has now locked himself in his flame retardent castle, equipped with a safety catch on the draw bridge, and life vests around the required 2' deep moat.

ls1bmw0 · February 2001

Review pictures of LS frontal offset crash on LLSOC. Car t-boned a Honda Civic that pulled out in front of the LS at 50mph. Both air bags deployed. Driver and passenger sustained very minor injuries, mainly abrasions due to impacting the airbags. Both occupants were wearing their seatbelts.

ABS was found to be a problem in accidents due to people having to "unlearn" years of being taught to pump the brakes to stop. Unconciously, people were found to go back to their old ways in a panic situation. ABS works if you stomp on the brake pedal and keep it there. Any let up screws up the system and prevents it from doing its job.

From a personal observation, in eight years as a volunteer paramedic I never pulled a dead person out of a car who was wearing a lap and shoulder belt properly. If I had my druthers I would have a full five-point Simpson harness in each of the front seats.

I normally keep traction control on when I don't want to completely focus on driving. It's an out, just like airbags for people who don't wear seatbelts or purposely keep them loose as well as ABS for people who don't have the training and experience to pump the brakes in an emergency.

packv12 · February 2001

I am sorry about your problem with Alexander in Fond du Lac, but don't abandon the marque for this reason.

I am in Green Bay and have been using Van Drisse, and they have been great. I realize that it's quite a trip for you, but I'm sure that they could do it for you. Talk to Rod, Debbie, or Kim, and they should be able to set you up.

It took them about an hour to do the re-flash, and another hour to check the fuel gauge that doesn't read quite right.

Either that, or have your service writer get hold of Van Drisse, and maybe they can figure out the problems involved in the re-flash.

I just spoke to my service advisor, he stated that they had a problem with the WDS being down last week. Either way, he has agreed to both of the suggestions. Either they (Van Drisse) could do it for you, or have your service advisor call them.

billincal1 · February 2001

James, I think you hit it right on the head with your "only use it every 20 year response" that's just it...you use it. not everyday, not every week, maybe (and hopefully) not ever...but the fact remains it's there when the time comes. But based on your other vehicles of choice, I can see why you have a devil may care attitude. In Calif, you so much as straddle that cycle without a helmet..you're gonna be talking to a judge. And as unfair as that sounds the government is intervening on your behalf. Fatal cycle accident rates as well as long term head injuries have actually gone down in Calif. primarily due to this law.
Interesting to hear you were in Beirut, Spent most of my tour in Alaska drawing up charts for the command...not very macho but did some great fishing! Anyway, if I could just add this one last comment..there is nothing SUPERFLUOUS about supplemental restraints...they are going to protect you whether you like it or not...It doesn't take 2 masters degrees to see that logic.
Bill

ls1bmw0 · February 2001

I know the safety issue is a highly personal one so I can understand the intensity of some of the postings. Just a friendly reminder so we keep our posts on a relatively even keel :>)

Edmunds Town Hall Terms of Use.

I agree to disagree in a civil manner should I take issue with the statements of another Town Hall participant or any Edmunds.com, Inc. Editor or content contributor. I understand that civility and respect underlie the success of an on-line community such as Town Hall.

thomas_l · February 2001

Read The Other Guy's Manual (he he ...) With all the safety talk, I HAD to share this: The C240 owners manual has, in every reference to a passive safety device (ABS, ESP, et al) , a big caution symbol and text to the effect of "this device does not cancel the laws of physics and is not a substitute for safe and prudent driving technique..." When I get a chance, I will have to get the exact words. I think I have met a few drivers that really need that level of detail - like they are the ones that read the book in the first place. Yeah right.

billincal1 · February 2001

I have often wondered if ABS work as well as they are touted. I found out first hand in my 88 Ford F250 manual 6 Cyl. Ford truck.(Big Boy!). Some little rice rocket cut in front of me about 100ft from a light that went from green to red sooner than he thought. His brakes went on about 3 ft in front of me, calling him all sorts of names I slammed hard on the brake peddle and knew I was about to nail his rear end. ABS make a very large chattering vibration sound when they're engaged. It stopped me cold about 6" in front of that little 'dweeb"...Ever since than I have had complete faith in ABS and wouldn't have anything else.
Bill

billincal1 · February 2001

Will try to stay on more even keel...Safety is a real flash point with me, my brother was just recently T-boned in a brand new Accord and didn't have side airbags, he was pretty banged up (but made it thru ok with just a few cracked ribs)...Sorry James for ragging on...no hard feelings

Bill

rcupka · February 2001

A few months ago I attended the Grand Prix Driving Course at Bondurant Driving School. During some off-track training you are taught the benefits of ABS through several exercises where you head into 90 degree corners at very high speeds, put the brake pedal to the floor (invoking the ABS) and steer your way through the corner or around cones. I think the chief benefit of ABS is to maintain directional control while achieving maximum braking force. For many this benefit is not understood, it is often possible to avoid the accident by steering a few feet to the left or right, instead of trying to bring 4000 lbs.of metal to a stop.

Dick

christoffer1 · February 2001

Regarding your post for the 2001 console cover you wrote:

"I have the answer! I ordered the '01 console "top" with the redesigned cupholders last week. The part was $68 at my dealer. If it doesn't fit (not likely) or the color is wrong (not likely either), I won't have to pay. As long as all goes well, I'll have my choice of cupholders! I'll keep you all advised."

I was just at my dealer and was quoted $281.88 for the cover and $13.33 for the rubber inserts. So, if you can do it for $68, let me know how it goes and who you parts source is.

BTW, I tried to see if I could swap my glove box CD changer for the in-dash 6 disc as the radio unit is being replaced. Ford LM said No Can Do because the wiring on 2001's has a different harness for the in dash that wasn't available in 2000 and would require swapping a lot of wires. Sounds plausible enough anyway.

Lincoln LS

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