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Comments
I also found that my previous repair shop had destroyed the platic screw inserts on my passenger side door while trying to fix a rattle that was subsequently fixed.
to byebyels. I think the A6 is a much nicer car for the money. I would shy away from the turbo though.
A big yes on swiching to syn oil. Highly recommended.
Lastly, just got the window controller problem again. I think the only that is still original is the driver's.
How about those PATs eh.
Enjoy folks,
Scott
I hate to see one vehicle cause someone to switch brands. Almost all of the problems mentioned here have been corrected. With more power and (hopefully) a redesigned interior the 2003 LS might be worth a look (assuming you liked the LS other than the problems). You're probably just as likely to have problems with the 540i or A6 as a new LS. If you simply want a different car or like something else better then go for it. Just don't think you're necessarily getting a superior product.
7196 of 7203 My Lease Is Up Soon No More LS by byebyels Feb 03, 2002 (02:20 pm)
I am new to Edmunds and am looking for my next car. The LS I have has been in the shop sevral times and many times for the same problems. My first choice currently is a 2002 BMW 540 i 6-speed 4.4L 4-Door Sedan (preferably black). If I cant get the jack for a new one I'll get a used one with their certified warranty. Any one have any suggestions for a luxury car in the $40-50K range other than another LS please post for me. Thanks
We're a partial group - so advice on an exceptable replacement will probably be slim... although a few have recently jumped ship for the new Jaguar X-Type - which looks pretty cool, but would be too small for me.
There really aren't too many autos that can compare for the money - I guess that's why the auto mags can't classify it or match it up correctly in the comparison tests.
I did have a "hard start experience" yesterday. I had just returned home and about a half hour later - jumped in the car and tried starting a couple seconds and then tried again and it started after a couple more seconds. It was about 34 degrees F. Ran fine after that - even started it a couple more times -rolled over imediately.
Brian
I can see it now - click on any link and it sends you to the BMW website.
I will check the other post and web sites.
Regards Dana.
Dana: There's a synthetic oil board here under Maintenance and Repair but you have to be up on your chemistry to keep up with those guys.:) I really don't think you have a thing to worry about. The seal stories you hear are likely from people with very worn engines that were borderline leakers anyway.
Scott
LLSOC Member
Tom
Very Happy Charter Member LLSOC
Brian is an invaluable asset to LS owners (and to Lincoln) and anything about the LLSOC site and the wealth of LS information it contains is of relevance to LS owners who participate in this forum. You don't have to be a member to access much of the information the site contains. Seems Edmunds has no problem with it either as they provide a link to LLSOC.
Your posts provide no information, except to whine about your LS (with no specifics so we might benefit from your experiences) and say you're buying a BMW (whoopee!), and then to insult one of our most helpful, hard working, and passionate members.
I believe "byebye" alone should be appropriate.
Mania III looms near and it should be great fun!
About that binder filled with requests.....
SVT LS:
More Power at least 300+
Probably need larger gas tank then.
6 spd manual
Less lean ...Adjustable suspension
Thicker rimmed steering wheel
Big wheels and tires (tyres?)
Big, Center mount dual exhausts
New gas-shock trunk hinges
Don't Let the Jaguar S-Type folks have all the fun!
LS..... Best high performance value
funkcity.............out
No mention about the problems VW/Audi is having with supply problems right now. DCX, ouch. BMW, they have their share of troubles too.
I smell a rat, but I've been wrong before. How quickly can you say GIOWA, or Riez? Same stupid arguement keeps regenerating. OKay Pat, I didin't mean it. Sometimes you have to put a label on a troll.
I read about it somewhere in the archives at LLSOC, but I'm not sure where.
Byebyels-don't let the door hit you in the a-- on the way out.
Artie
Charter Member, LLSOC
As was said earlier... Buh Bye, byebye.
In general, we, as consumers, have grown to expect more for our money lately. But we need to keep in mind that cars are designed and built by human beings. The quality of cars has come a long way in the last 5-10 years. I still can remember when the delivery of your new car used to include setting up an appointment about 4 weeks out for "squeaks, rattles, and other adjustments." That doesn't seem to be necessary anymore, so it appears that the industry has made progress.
Brian is an invaluable Resource. He was just letting everyone know on this board why LLSOC was down. It was not advertising. It is just most of us LLSOC members chat in here.
Now byebyels is right about the LS reliability. My Car is still in the Shop. I took it in November 26, 2001! Got it back for two weeks at Christmas (Unfixed--They needed an Engineer/Rep. who wouldn't be available until after Christmas) Toook it back and it has been there ever since.
My Car has not left me walking but let me tell I have had Multiple issues with headlights, Clunks (Every kind Rear Seat, Steering Column, Suspensiion), brakes, Radio Failures,Window Failiure, The Tranny Delay. Not exactly a shining record...
It is very hard to be excited about my LS. So byebyels might be justified in leaving his LS. Hence the mass exodus by Leasing people. I have spent many hours at the dealer, and have felt like crap coming in with the same issues over and over. I wonder if lincoln has picked up on this.
Towncar people are very loyal (Because the Quality is there I believe), but I think the LS build qaulity and all the Minor issues are killing the LS Loyalty. We really need to talk to Lincoln at MANIA III about the quality.
We shouldn't deny the seriousness of the issues. But confront them and deal with them.
Regards,
Airwolf1000
Proud LLSOC Member
I haven't seen or read anything that indicates anything like this is on the way. If it doesn't, I'll probably move to a 2003 Cobra. Can you say 390HP and a Six Speed!
I'd rather have it in an LS, but time is running out!
Artie
Charter Member, LLSOC
One issue that I don't think I've heard mentioned, is with the economy where it is today, how many of the lease turnbacks really can't afford the freight to lease another expensive car? Or don't trust the economy and their job security enough to risk it? Better to lease an inexpensive car for 2 years until the economy straightens out. I also suspect, knowing human nature, that many people would not admit that they are going cheaper, but rather claim they are trading up, it's part of human nature.
Years ago I got a magazine called Audio Amateur/Speaker Builder (back when I did that occasionally as a consultant). They had a section called "Vox Populai" or some such that told interesting audio "tales." One seems relevant, when the mighty Marantz 10B tube tuner came out in the 60's, it was the king of tuners, and highly prized (even more so today, they go for many times original retail to collectors). The story was about one tech who got one in to align. He was intimidated by the Marantz due to it's rep, but got the manuals, and found out it would only take him about an hour and a half to align it. He did it, charged the guy $50, and it was perfect. The guy took it back to the Marantz dealer (who charged $175 to align one), had it realigned, and then brought it back and told the tech to listen to how it sounds properly aligned! The measurements hadn't changed, in fact he could tell they hadn't even aligned it as it didn't need it, but still charged for it. He raised his price to $100, and got the response from a customer "well, it's an OK alignment for the price, I suppose." Then he ups the price to $150, $25 less than the Marantz dealer, and customers start praising him as "finally finding a man who can do a great alignment without ripping you off." Later he met on neutral turf with the tech from the Marantz dealer, who confirmed that it only took about a hour or so to align. When asked why they charge so much, his response was "The customers want to pay, it makes them feel exclusive and important."
Regards, and hope your LS is back soon.
JS
LLSOC Charter Member
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
However I am not going to doubt most of them not releasing the LS. And I am not going to doubt that they if they say they are buying a 530 they are buying a 530 or an Audi. I am not here to second guess what you say or any one else for that matter.
Also J. Please do not lump me with Riez, and GIOWA, I am not argumentative about I-6 vs. V-6, am not playing devils advocate or the like. I am sad for byebyels, but I understand his point and those not releasing. And I am also sad for the LS because they lost a few customers who might of released an LS if everything was right. I personally am looking forward to future LS's but lets just say I will take future LS's with a grain of salt (Quality wise).
Quick Survey
1. Is everyone here more aprehensive about buying another LS due to quality.
2. Who will buy another LS?
Everythin I am stating is regarding my experience regarding quality with the LS. I also feel I have heard similar complaints from many others that are not riez or Giowa. I have been very understanding and never used to complain about my issues until recently. Everyone has their breaking point.
Now let me make my intentions clear. I love the LS but I have never had quality issues like this in all of my previous cars and I definitely don't expect it out of a 38K+ Car. Maybe my expectations are high but in talking to my coworkers and friends they believe I am being too patient. I see it as giving Lincoln a chance to make it Right.
Many here have had problems with their cars, and some have had cars Swapped out. If their were not issues I would agree with you. I have a personal friend of mine that had his LS swapped out due to engine knock and other failures.
If we are a small minority in LS Owners and yet have had a few cars swapped, It makes me wonder how many are really getting swapped.
I have attended Mania I and II and always talk up the car. It just makes me also look like an idiot when I say the LS is such an awesome car and my friends say Let me see it, and I say "Its in the Shop)... and I am driving a Towncar or a Galant and so on and so forth. Actually though two weeks ago my dealership picked up the extra cost for an LS since it went over $35 dollars and Lincoln would not pay for it.
I apologize about my posts regarding my quality issues...I just want other to know they are not alone and also to raise awareness at Lincoln, regarding how my dealership is handling, rental polices, and what they need to improve on (The LS).
In any case thanks for the input J, it is duly noted.
I would also like some cheese with my wine.
Regards,
Airwolf1000
Proud LLSOC Member
that we all are learned drivers with diversified interests.
My bit has to do with warranty service. In December I took my LS (manual, only audio upgrades) in to get the rearside window fix (turns out my dealer only did the bad one and argued with me when I mentioned the service bulletin said to do both), and had a number of fit & finish issues at that time. My right rear air dam in front of the wheel hadn't been screwed down properly, my drivers' door handle had lifting chrome that cut my wife's finger, the little chrome bits in the middle of the air vents were missing in two places & the trunk lining didn't line the trunk (it looked like s***). Of course, there was that ball joint torque thing.
Anyway, they fixed the (one) window and checked the ball joint, then ordered the parts. A week or so ago the parts arrived, and I just picked the car up.
The door handle was replaced. One of the two missing air vent trim pieces was installled (I may have only pointed out the right centre one, but the far-right one was also missing -- is it rocket science to look for this stuff?), and the trunk was completely rebuilt (they put in both side "carpet" pieces" & replaced the missing hold-downs). This is generally good news.
I was asked to rent an Enterprise Focus the first visit, in December, and got a Sable loaner the second go-round. I liked the Focus better, but the overhead & time involved in renting the Focus far outweighed the simplicity of just getting issued the Sable (even though it had a number of "issues"). Loaners are really great -- even if they're sub-standard in quality. What's your time worth?
Here's my point. The previous five new vehicles I bought new required no warranty service, but I need to define "required." I'm averse to hospitals & car dealers -- I don't go there unless I absolutely, positively have to. The other five didn't have issues that interfered with my ability to use the vehicle -- that would be the rear window thing, along with the ball joint recall. This one did, so I'm trying to report my experiences.
What if I were supplied the same car I was having serviced as a loaner? What if I decided that some of the features of the new one were better? What if. . . Lincoln really wanted to compete?
It's interesting to note that when I bought my LS, I signed a document that relieved the dealership of providing a loaner. I could have chosen not to sign. For that matter, I could have chosen not to have bought the LS.
Go figure.
I for one would buy another LS in a heart beat. In fact, i have been trying to urge my wife in to one so that I can have hers, which would be an LS-V8 sport of course, to toy with.
Go for it....
Regards,
Airwolf1000
LLSOC Member
About the survey. I would buy another LS, and yes I would like to see the quality go up. I would also like to see the HP go up. I will be driving my 2000 LS8 for the next few years so I can wait. I am good at this being in New England and waiting for the Super Bowl Champions NEW ENGLAND PATROITS!!!!!!!!!
I don't regret a single thing about my purchase. I have an October 1999 build date Silver LS8 Sport, with Light Graphite interior. This car is every bit as good today as it was 2 years ago when I took delivery. IMHO, there is nothing currently on the market (or even soon to be on the market) that comes close to the LS in terms of value, handling, performance, roominess, comfort . . .
I'd be in another LS8 Sport in a New York minute.
And 2) Eagerly looking forward to my next one. I'll be ready probably in late '05 and, unless they do some kind of "edgy" or "polarizing" restyle of the body, I'll scarcely look at anything else before buying. Audi is about the only thing in the price range that interests me, and there's no dealer near my home.
Biased? You bet. By the fact that the car has covered 39k miles in less than 16 months, with one rear window regulator as the only failure. One tiny rattle in the driver's door window, and that only when it's very cold. Otherwise, no squeaks, clunks, wind noise, or other signs of poor quality construction.
I don't believe the LS is the best-built car in the world, although my particular example would make a case. Neither is it the most miserable lemon on the road, though Vic and a couple others could demonstrate that point. But if participants here and at LLSOC are a roughly accurate cross-section, lemons are vastly in the minority. Doesn't do Vic a bit of good, I know, but I just don't see a blanket quality problem with this car.
Chris has hit it right on the head: Even after three years of production with no major changes, in the $35-40k price range, the LS is still untouchable. IMBiasedO, of course.:)
Scott
LLSOC Member
As I said I leased it and after 1 year of listening to that whine in a 40,000 car I have had enough! I traded it on the Benz and it cost me something like 5000 as they don't hold any kind of value after 1 year but I feel it was worth it!
I have been lurking here since before I got my car and I have learned that you folks are a touchy group of die-hard fans! There's nothing wrong with that, but sometimes you can be a little sensitive.
I understand why people who are ending leases are changing to other brands: Lincoln, and its dealers are not standing behind these cars! Good luck with your cars in the future as I'm sure that I will have fun with mine!
RRS
What I do is compare my LS (manual) to anything else that arises, plus the existing cars. Here's where I am now:
o BMW is really expensive (first cost & maintenance) and comes with "yuppie scum" image baggage.
o Audi is expensive (first cost & maintenance), but lacks the baggage -- I may yet end up with an A6 2.7T.
o Lexus G300 or 400 doesn't have a manual transmission, besides which there's some of that YS thing going on (as in BMW).
o Infiniti G35 -- Now this is a real possibility. The manual isn't available until "later", but even then, I can't put my bicycle in the trunk (no fold-down rear seats). Maybe I'm the .03% person, or maybe the folks who want a manual transmission sports sedan that costs between 30K & 50K don't want the option of fold-down rear seats.
This, especially with the G35, falls into an interesting category. A post on another topic said something to the effect of: "What, you wouldn't base your purchase on radio reception, would you?" The answer is yes, if the alternate vehicle provided all else that mattered AND had good radio reception. My fold-down rear seats fall into this category. As do the manual, good audio system, the ability to choose options separately, and all the rest.
Bottom line -- I'm not completely satisfied with my LS. OTOH, can I buy anything better today for less than $40K? I don't think so.
Please keep me posted, as I know you will.
My issues with my LS (2001 V8 Sport):
1. The general quality things. A rattle that everybody can hear, but can never quite pin down where it comes from (best guesses are rearview mirror, base of windshield, under glove compartment, front passenger door). Big plastic screws appear in my trunk, and I _know_ they didn't come from anything I ever put in there. The moonroof doesn't close all the way when you hold the switch down. You have to let go and tap it a few times, it closes a little bit more each time. A big clunk from the rear passenger door that occurs sometimes when you hit a bump (but not every time). And just today (a cold one here in New England) I found the headlamp fogged. The "mystery beep."
2. Similar to 1., seemingly simple design issues. Engine? whine from about 1500-1800 rpm (I understand this was taken care of for 2002). The trunk that requires Olympian precision to get it to latch. It also is somewhat disheartening that it took until the 2002 model that Lincoln discovered some extra performance from seemingly trivial and obvious intake modifications.
3. The transmission. Actually my biggest complaint is the delay in going to drive. I back out of the driveway, go to drive, and I swear it takes so long that I'm convinced that it must actually be in gear and I didn't notice it, so I give it gas, only to get a nice jerk when it actually drops into gear. The selectshift is sometimes hesitant, even when what I'm asking of it will obviously leave it way clear of stall or redline. And sometimes it just seems to get confused for no particular reason.
4. This was discussed recently: the seat doesn't go back far enough. Now, I'm 6'4" with about a 33" inseam, so I understand this will be an issue for me with most cars, and I was fully aware of the seating constraints when I bought the car. I still don't see why the seat can't go back farther. One of the posters here made a good point: look how far forward the seat can go. I submit that anybody who finds the forward position comfortable for driving, is not legally or physically fit to drive. FWIW, my boss is 6'7" and has no problem fitting in his Focus wagon.
5. Lack of interior storage space.
I've never brought up those little quality issues with the dealer when it's in for oil changes, because I just know that they'll "look into it" and not be able to find the source of the rattles etc.
Anwyay, despite those complaints/issues, there are still a lot of things I like about the LS, and a few things that I love. If I was in the market now I would definitely consider it- but largely because the cars I find that compete with it in terms of both performance and amenities are much more expensive. When I bought mine (June 2001) I also looked at: BMW 3 series (too small), BMW 5 series (525 too weak, otherwise too expensive for comparable equipment (You have a car with a base price around $40k, and then you're going to charge me another $1300 for leather? Get real.)) Lexus ES300 (too boring, FWD), IS300 (too small), GS300 (could be exciting but has the same engine as the other two. Too weak), GS430 (too expensive), Audis (too expensive), Acuras (FWD). Maybe there are one or two other choices now (G35?), but I don't have an itch for anything else (that I can afford) right now... I'm definitely curious to see what 2003 has in store, though.
I'm sure that most here have been honest (well, most of us, discounting some), which is what I like about this group. However, I still believe that many who stretched to get into the price range of an LS, and others, are going less $, due to the economic indicators and such. Something we won't figure out here, it'd take much better data, but I still believe it's highly likely. I know one person who leases, and he turned in a Mercedes for an Honda Accord, as his business propositions are a bit uncertain (he consults).
"Also J. Please do not lump me with Riez, and GIOWA, I am not argumentative about I-6 vs. V-6, am not playing devils advocate or the like."
Oh law, I never intended that you would interpret what I said to indicate that I thought you belonged in the august company of these people who are denying villages all over the world of an idiot. I've enjoyed your posts, commiserated over your problems, and have found you well balanced and polite, and appologize if my wording indicated I was trying to paint you with the same brush! I'm sorry for anyone, you, byebyels (even though I think he's a horse's behind), that has had a lot of problems. My car, and the two others that park where I work have been pretty good to nearly perfect (we just can't stop talking about our LS's ).
I think a lot of problems have been exacerbated by poor mechanics and dealers and parts stock. I am fortunate to have the oldest LM dealer in the US, and I've been really happy with their service, politeness, and help. Their only problem is that on some things it took a long time to get parts, but I attributed that to buying a car that was that new. That plus the fact my car has had the following problems: relace hydraulic cooling fan and pump 1 week after delivery, check ball joints, reflash tranny, one headlamp replaced, radio (and of course steering wheel switch) replaced. That's it. With the exception of the cooling fan, everything else waited until I had another oil change. I have no rattles, no problems now (except I noticed I have a lug nut missing, makes me wonder if I should buy the locking lugs), nothing. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another if this one was bent beyond repair, or when I decide to buy a new car.
"Everythin I am stating is regarding my experience regarding quality with the LS."
I trust you, and believe me I truly am sorry you've had such a terrible time. Heck, I'd even have volunteered to have another headlight go out if it helped. ;-)
"If we are a small minority in LS Owners and yet have had a few cars swapped, It makes me wonder how many are really getting swapped."
Good point, one wonders. Out of the admittedly small n sample of mine, this hasn't happened. I still believe that we hear about more problems on the board, because it's natural for people with problems to come here and get advise and commiserate. I don't think you'll find many average drivers who, if they like the car, will seek out a forum just to praise it, which I believe skews the data here a bit. Not invalidate it by any means, but I view it as potentially skewed.
"I apologize about my posts regarding my quality issues..."
For goodness sake, you shouldn't, you are definitely not a whiner, and deserve your opinion, as does everyone. That doesn't mean I can't skewer an opinion I disagree with ;-), but I respect yours. I appreciate you're taking the time to write down your thoughts, they have been interesting and informative. Thank you for the input!
stanny1 - I think the 10B was the only tuner the original Marantz made wasn't it? I believe it's what drove them out of business and forced the sale, they'd blown all their capital on the 10B. A friend in Chicago has one, which he constantly rubs my nose in, when he does, I just say how good my McIntosh MC240 tube power amp is sounding. ;-) You have a Charlie the Tuner? Wow, I haven't seen them since we sold them when I worked at a stereo shop in college. Remember Ampzilla and Son of Ampzilla? Audio companies then knew how to name things! And you're absolutely right, most tuners today are abominable, I have a Dynaco FM3 that sounds better than 90% of the tuners out there. Heck, the tuner in the little Kloss Tivoli radio is better than most.
Well, enough off topic posting.
Regards,
JS
LLSOC Charter Member
If anyone has had similar problems with him please let me know.
Regards,
JS
LLSOC Charter Member
The 2000 LS was the very first year of the brand new DEW 98 platform and some issues are to be expected. That doesn't make them easier to deal with, but realistically could have been anticipated.
BMW and Mercedes have been doing evolutionary changes for years, so I would expect fewer problems.
From my Wixom factory visit at Mania II, I believe that LS engineers are doing everything they can to improve quality as quickly as they can. The quantity of running improvements and the challenge of keeping track of them for warranty purposes must be quite a challenge.
You will notice that there are very few complaints from 2001-2002 LS owners. I expect the evolutionary changes on the 2003 will continue to improve the quality of the LS.
There is not a better value for a REAL Sports Sedan than the Lincoln LS.
He's under the nom de plume of riez. There have been several interchanges with folks on this forum with (insert his current name here) who have received his usual toiletful of hyperbole email. I've set up my email system to automatically put his email address and IP address into the garbage bin where it belongs. That way I don't have to worry about it. Hmmm, gives me an idea. I think I'll add a rule that automatically forwards his email back to himself! After one or two tries he might get tired of spitting into the wind.
Pat is well aware of the situation as he also is winning friends and influencing no one on the BMW forum and the CTS forum. As Pat suggested ignore his emails. Nothing gets to him more than people ignoring him.
Brian
The reason I brought up the subject is that if he was harassing me, he was bound to be doing the same to others. If all who are being annoyed and harassed by him complain to his ISP, might do nothing, might make him go through the inconvenience of finding another one.
Here's more on the subject.
http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10953
As a BMW owner and frequent reader of this lively board, the otherwise insightful comments are lost when he is stuck in the early eighties somewhere. Get a grip and stick to facts and the conversation and differences will have more merit to visitors here.
Just as many here appear to want to remove the image of Lincoln owners as mostly "elder statesmen", trashing BMW owners with twenty year old hip talk seems pretty empty. Just my two cents...
Linux: Anti-virus software for PCs
Brian - you should really look at a Linux web server for LLSOC. Unless you're using Microsoft proprietary stuff. They aren't susceptible to viruses or mass mailers like Code Red. And once you know what you're doing you'll be surprised at how powerful it is. Of course, if you don't already know a little about Linux or Unix in general the leaning curve is quite steep.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD