Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier

mdriver · May 2001

Comparing the TDI engine to a Civic engine is very difficult to do. Even though a Civic may be faster to 60, it has to work frantically to do so. The TDI on the other hand is a low revving easy going engine, that could leave one with the impression that it is far more responsive then the Civic (VTEC or not).

As far as Edmund's Civic EX 0-60 time of 7.9 secs, I find this very optimistic since Honda's own website in the U.K. rates a 0-62 (0-100km/h) at 9.6 secs. It's the same engine in the U.K. as here. Those last 2 mph don't take 1.7secs to reach so something is very strange here. If Honda was able to achieve 7.9secs, they would be citing that all over there website don't you think?

wordman93 · May 2001

pull over and tell him or her to perform a VNT bleed and descreen their air box, then give'em a rematch. You'll go home smelling like Diesel with soot(diesel crap) on the front of your car:)

Earlier in here someone posted that the torque for the 02 SI will only be 130. That's below everybody including the Focus SVT which will have 145 lb./ft. at 5,500 rpm. I think that these two cars will be closely matched in performance, but seriously doubt that they will be below 7 seconds to sixty, unlike their competition.

dasteph94 · May 2001

hey, I meant no offense to Honda Hatchback folks! Until recently i only bought
Honda Hatchbacks and I love 'em! However, I felt I should put my two cents
worth in about the 2002 model--and I understand it will cost around $18,000,
which I assure you is more than I paid for my VW Golf Diesel. Most folks
don't care if it's slower off the starting line than a souped up Honda--are we
all race car drivers in everyday traffic!!!

And I feel Honda is missing their market--most of my fellow Honda hatchback owners
I think would agree that the new Honda has features that are nice but appeal
more to sports car buyers than hatchback owners.
At any rate, I apologize for any upset--having owned both cars I feel I can
compare them!

himiler · May 2001

About that WRX--I'm betting that the dealer uses that car for test drives, and customers just order the exact vehicle they want. I'm also betting that the car will see some hard miles before it's sold as a demo, so even if you could snag it for ~$20K, it might not be worth it. Super car, though.

RE: Si motor--It was my impression that the base RSX and Si would use the same 2.0L motor, which means that torque will be fairly robust, even if the Si is tuned more for high-RPM output than the RSX will be (chicks from the clerical pool usually don't like to wind it past 6000RPM.) Tuning in the RSX will also have to give a fatter torque curve to match with the autobox.

Actually, I prefer less torque in the lower revs--the higher the torque peak, the more the car will feel like my CBR600F3. Call it the electric motor effect--the more you put in, the more you get out. Zoooooooooom!

sobers · June 2001

Honda & also other Automakers quote conservative figures when it comes to 0-60 times.

I have seen a lot of magzines testing Civic coupe EX for 7.9 Secs & sedan 8.3 with manual trans.
Honda's claim are very conservative....

only1harry · June 2001

I agree about comparing the TDI & Civics, but I don't understand what you 're saying.. one works harder than the other to beat it.. ok, so? show me 2 car models from different manufacturers that are the same. The fact remains one is faster than the other. That's the end result. If you don't like revving a little high to beat another car, then Civics are not for you, but maybe a big V8s is.. because I guarantee you, to pass anyone in the TDI you 'd have to floor the gas too, isn't that making the car work? I 'm sure you don't blow cars away in a TDI (if any at all) by just touching the gas or only depressing it 1/4 of the way down.. It might be smooth because redline is not high and the inside cabin is well insulated from the engine bay. You still have to smash the gas pedal to pass anyone fast, let alone race, in a 90hp car..
Anyway, not that I 'm a big g7 Civic fan, but I have to agree with the other guys. I 've read many road tests from various mags and the figures I 've seen for Civic EX 5-sp coupe ranged from 8.0 to 8.5s. 8.3s is probably the most prevelant but 7.9 is probably doable with a really good driver behind the wheel but most likelly not without inflicting a little clutch damage at the same time..

mdriver · June 2001

If you take two cars that have the same 0-60 number, one is a larger displacement heavier car and the other a small displacement high revving car. The larger displacement car will probably SEEM more responsive because of the lower peak torque and HP ratings. I'm talking about perception not numbers on paper. The TDI will leave black stripes on the road at launch but quickly runs out of steam. The Civic is the opposite. If you did a 0-20 or 0-30 test, the TDI would probably be ahead of the Civic.

hoanvt · June 2001

http://www.vtec.net/news/items/704.html

qin2 · June 2001

A while back I was thinking about purchasing a new car and test drove all the sub-20 crowd.. for the life of me I don't understand why more people are buying the new Civic over a Sentra, Protege, or Focus. All 3 seemed very superior to me over the Civic. I can only guess its because Honda has a bigger reputation then the other three automakers.. which is a shame since the car is in my opinion is in no way better.

civic_cx_92 · June 2001

Civic EX, Sentra SE, Protege ES, Focus ZTS
all automatic transmission...
Price: Honda is most expensive
Gas milage: 32/37 mpg Honda, next best is 25/33 mpg Ford
Safety: no one but Civic sedan gets 'excellent'
Resale value: ?
Predicted reliability: ? (I'm Honda bias)

isellhondas · June 2001

Well, to each his/her own. No one car will please everybody. None of the cars you mentioned are bad cars.

People will be afraid of anything built by Ford because of repair history and lousy resale down the road.

People should drive what they think is best for them.

himiler · June 2001

Ladychaos--You might be shocked to learn that the West Coast boy-racers have embraced the Focus for two reasons:

The new Civic's McStrut suspension up front is tougher to modify than the setup on a Focus.

When you break something, as boy-racers are prone to do, the Ford's parts are WAY less expensive than the Honda's.

If Honda isn't concerned about losing the performance-image game with the young hot-rodders, why bother with the new Si hatch, then?
Think about it.

griffing · June 2001

I think that for $18-$20k, you could buy a much better car than the civic Si. I would rather have a slightly used prelude or a toyota celica gts. Each of these cars would out look and out perform the Si, while still having a better design. Spending that much on a car that you could mistake for a Focus would be insulting. It's nice that Honda is bringing it back, but they should have re-thought the disign, and made it at least look worth the money. Personally though, I would still rather have the Si than the God-Awful WRX, man that thing is UGLY!!!

mdriver · June 2001

Ladychaos, you say the Civic is still #1 seller, but the numbers are significantly down from last year. What's really amazing is the Civic is a new design, which usually reinvigorates sales from the last gen. But the opposite has occured. Don't forget, Honda is now stuck with this design for the next 4 or 5 years with maybe some very minor enhancements along the way. If sales are down now, what will they be like in 2 or 3 years when the competition has passed them by. Maybe Honda will have to start offering rebates, imagine that! Or worse, offer things like standard alloys on the EX - something the competition has been doing for years.

I also agree about the looks of the WRX - a dated body with some sporty accents.

himiler · June 2001

It's nearly a dud.

civic_cx_92 · June 2001

well I disagree again with mdriver!

Regarding sales of 2001 Civic down compared to 2000.
Civics produced in North America (USA + Canada)
6/10/00: 183,320
6/9/01: 189,422 (+3.3%)
Considering 3.9% 36 months rates offered by Honda on 2000 models it doesn't look all bad. However the new Sentra did much better (+86%).
http://www.autonews.com/html/main/art/prod611.pdf

sobers · June 2001

First of all May saw Civic sales to 32K !!
There are 3 reasons why Civic sells are lesser than 2000.

1)Incentives on 2000 Models
2)Record pace of 2000 sales
3) New 2001 Civic: Dealers trying earn atleast $500 per car at the start. Now they have started dealing Civics close to invoice (100-200-250)

So rather civic's sale are much better in retrospect than 2000. So is the car. It is VAST improvement over 2000. It is now gaining the sales of corolla also (people who prefer smother ride of corolla) I have seen all of my friends going with Civic which was almost 50-50 split....

If anybody needs any asurance...take it from me Civic is going to keep its sales crown & popularity. I am experinecing lot of guys going towards Civic over other cars. Ford Focus is not even on the short list of 80% consumers I know !!

seminole_kev · June 2001

are buying 4 Foci apiece since they're sales numbers are close to the civic's. :-P

himiler · June 2001

Does that assessment include the fabulous new McStruts, increased weight, and dumpy styling?

You're kidding yourself if you think the Focus isn't the biggest threat the Civic has seen in a while. That SVT Hatch is going to chew up the Si pretty badly.

mdriver · June 2001

The Focus has already taken over as the car of choice for enthusiasts. The 01 Civic (not Si) has furthered the Focus' lead with its disappointing perfomance. The Focus has been so successful because it starts with an already excellent suspension and steering setup compared to the pedestrian 01 Civic. The 02 Si starts with an 01 Civic platform an attempts to improve on that to bring it up to SVT levels. Good luck.

isellhondas · June 2001

Good Luck...as Honda sells every one they build as fast as they roll off the trucks...

Focus? Not a bad car..not bad at all.

blackfociz · June 2001

Well, count another who was thinking of the Civic but went instead with the Focus ZX3 (2001, black, 5-speed). Quite honestly, to get power everything, cd, sunroof and 16" wheels for $12900 is a great value. I've only had it a week and 300 miles, but I love everything about this car so far... The only concern I have is dealer service. But when I had a Honda CRX back in the day, service was nothing special at the Honda dealer either...

silver_bullet · June 2001

As a former ZX3 owner (sold it to my fiancee, who adores it) AND a former Civic Hatchback owner, I have to agree that the Focus is a great design that is sadly let down by the quality of some of its parts and the mostly awful service provided by Ford dealers. However, I also feel Honda is vastly overrated (and overpriced), and mostly cruises along on the strength of their past successes - the competition hasn't stood still. Honda service is nothing special, and parts prices are quite high. I will look at the Civic Si when it appears later this summer, but I'm not expecting to see a car that offers much for the money. And Isell, I certainly wouldn't try to make an argument supporting the worth of the car based on the buying habits of the American public... most people make ill-informed choices based on their emotions and marketing hype (can you say "SUV"?).

mdriver · June 2001

Honda does NOT sell every Civic they build as fast as they roll off the trucks. This is why dealers are selling them at just over invoice. If they were selling as isellhondas says they are, most people would be paying list price or above which is clearly not the case.

silver_bullet · June 2001

When I lived in Seattle, I was amazed at the attitude most people had about Hondas - you'd have thought the cars were capable of driving across water, and the dealers certainly priced them accordingly. Now that I'm back in TX, I see the same Civics sitting at a local dealer week after week (not to mention Insights). I think the last generation Civic coupe and hatch were nice looking cars, they just didn't offer much for the money. The new Civics just look boring - and the price is still too high.

kroliph · June 2001

Honda will have to be careful with the pricing of the new Civic Si. The competition in the pocket rocket segment is going to be brutal this fall. I agree that Honda has a great reputation. But anything over $19,000 for this car might price Honda right out of the competition. Especially considering that most of the competition is offering more performance goodies for the same if not less money. If the price of the Civic Si hits the $20,000 mark, I think people will start adding the WRX to their shopping list.

I agree that the WRX may not be the nicest looking car on the road. But just get behind the wheel of one at your local Subaru dealer and it will take a few hours to wipe the smile off your face. It is hard to deny that the WRX sets new standards for affordable performance and safety with it's AWD system.

isellhondas · June 2001

Thanks for keeping me in line...I mispoke.

I meant to say that I expect the SI's to sell as quickly as they arrive. They will probably all be pre-sold.

sobers · June 2001

Honda will leave more than enough room on Civic Si for afetrmarket add ons like supercharher kit. Mugen has already started workin gon 2.0 Lit I-VTec series & that will help Si too. I also doubt that Civic Si will cost more than 18,000. If it does, Honda will up the power to 170hp.

The diff between SVT & Si would be :
1) the % of power 'actually' going to the wheels
2) Transmission smoothness & efficiency(ratios)
3) Build Quality(Reliability) !!!

sobers · June 2001

May01 May00 ytd01 ytd00
4 Honda Civic 32,365 31,253 127,909 136,684

5 Ford Focus 27,908 26,050 113,274 121,884

Now tell me
2000 Civic with 4.9 APR, Market Boom
2001 Civic dealer profit & No APR Figure, Market Slowdown ==> Still the sales are quite good even after initial few months of Dealer profits in the order of 500+ !!

Focus currently has low APR & 1500 Rebate !!

Civic is doing much better despite Focus RENTAL sales, Rebate, Low Cost.

Honda would easily cross last years sales #328K which was achieved by end of model & apr discounts

sobers · June 2001

the guys who talk about loss of front-bones as a reason for sales, WHICH OTHER CAR econocar GIVES you BOnes in front ???

himiler · June 2001

Once upon a time, a big reason for buying a Civic was because it was the ONLY sub-compact with wishbones. They're much easier to modify than strut-type arrangements, and work better at maximizing the tire's contact patch.

I could care less if there are no other cars in this class that carry wishbones--the point is that the Civic DID, and it was a better driver for it!

silver_bullet · June 2001

... and with the move toward a more conventional layout, and other concessions designed to please the mythical "Jennifer" that Honda said was their target Civic buyer, Honda is essentially retreating from the engineering high ground they once claimed. I don't think it is wise for them to rely only on "superior resale value" and "above-average reliability" to sell cars - the competition will eventually catch and pass them, as it already has in some ways (such as features per dollar). Getting back to the Si, it is an unknown at this point. We will need to wait until production examples are available for test. Isn't the Si going to come from a plant in the U.K.? Sure makes me wonder about how much "build quality" we can expect.

mdriver · June 2001

Build quality at the UK plant could be better than US plants since auto writers over there have always complained about mediocre build quality on the US made Civic coupe compared to the British made sedans.

If the 02 Civic Si is only $18k, same price as the 99/00 Civic Si, is Honda giving away ABS (standard on 02 Si) which was not on the 99/00? I don't think so. How can the new Si be the same price as the old one when it will have additional/upgraded options? My point is that the price has to be higher, if nothing else than to cover the cost of ABS. So figure $18k, plus $500 for ABS, plus a few hundred $ for miscellaneous upgrades like 16" wheels, etc. That will probably come out to about $19K - how about $18,995.

sobers · June 2001

don't forget that Jeniffer was Civic coupe target not the sedan. Even with sporty(guys) bias what Honda observaed from 96 to 2000 that 60% of the coupe buyers were female !! Rather that was the motive behind their male-target Model X !

New civic is a great buy & better than every other compact. It costs a bit more than others but is covered over 3-5 years. Good power, clean engines, sporty ride, Build Quality, Smart Design, 30-39 mpg!! HX trim, Interior room, Crash test. It is an all rounder. The only step back is front suspension which is not 'that' easy to modify now. But I am sure enthusiasts will find some way or the other to make it perform the way they want. There are many products already in the market. Also note that, enthusiats don't have any probem with front suspension but the rear(bouncing) which is still double bone with tuning for smoother ride.

qin2 · June 2001

"New civic is a great buy & better than every other compact."

I'd definatley be willing to argue that point.

silver_bullet · June 2001

Likewise, I'd have to take issue with your blanket statement as quoted above. The Civic might be the right car for some buyers, but calling it "better than every other compact" is going way too far.

sobers · June 2001

We should be counting it on all the aspects. It is an all rounder. The most imp part is Honda honors its own product & takes care of the economy for the consumer. They don't sell it to Rental companies in a bunch(Corolla). (Rental companies need to get them from local dealer & dealer may choose not to sell if he is not getting any benefit), Honda doesn't put heavy rebates, incentives so that the resale doesn't go down the sink (Focus). Honda stands by its product better than other brands.

The only question is whether civic is worth the extra cash upfront ? & it is up to every individual to decide whether it is worth. For me yes it is !

What would you buy if Focus & Civic are priced similar or close ? I rest my case. People who vote from their wallets are not fool !!

mdriver · June 2001

The VW Jetta/Golf actually has a higher resale value than any Civic despite average reliability. So from an resale standpoint, getting a Jetta/Golf is the smartest decision, not a Civic.

The Focus has low resale value mainly due to its discounting up front. But it is superior to the Civic in terms of handling, steering, room, ergonomics and power (particularly torque) and I am a Civic fan, or used to be. You don't have to be a "boy racer" to appreciate the precise handling and steering in the Focus. The problem with the current Civics is, you can't get one that drives like a Focus even if you're willing to spend more $.

kroliph · June 2001

I have to agree w/ mdriver on that point. The Focus does handle pretty well. Ford of Europe seems to be able to design a pretty decent small car platform. Of course, reliability seems to be a different issue. There has just been too many recalls on the Focus. And how is that thing going to hold up over 10 years? I'll bet the Si's will still be on the road.

I'm looking forward to driving the new Civic Si. Let's hope that Honda has been able to save enough money by eliminating the front wishbones that they can keep the price down. I agree that ABS is going to boost the base a little. But, I don't think they are going to have to cross the $18,000 mark by much. I think the car definitely needed ABS though.

At the end of the day, it is difficult to ignore Honda reliability. I just wish they would have tossed in the 6-speed to make things a little more interesting. I know, I know, if I want the 6-speed buy the Acura.

By the way, it would seem that the Acura RSX type S may start around $23,500. Any higher than that and I'm not going to even bother test driving one.

silver_bullet · June 2001

At a projected price of around $18K, the upcoming SVT Focus will feature a Getrag six-speed transmission and lots of other goodies. I think the RSX is going to be another Honda blunder - nice car, maybe, but another move away from the enthusiasts that made the company what it is today.

greenguy · June 2001

price the RSX out of the market for most in the buying market. They have to keep the price within reach of those enthusiast that are willing to spend their hard earned ca$h on a new car. The Si will keep them there, but the RSX, It is priced for those that can spend $20-25K on a car. That is why the Focus and the SvT will take away market share.
Besides, with $25K to spend on a car, I would opt for a WRX. ( you say its ugly, well so is your momma,and it will kick [non-permissible content removed] like your momma too;))

silver_bullet · June 2001

For sure - for equal money, the WRX gets the nod over an RSX Type S. At least in photographs, the RSX looks really dumpy and tall. It reminds me of an Olds Alero :-0

surreal2 · July 2001

so why cant it beat a toyota echo 0 to sixty? even the zx3 falls behind, comparing 5 spd to 5spd.

i actually wanted to buy a zx3, but with the tremendous problems with reliability, fuel economy(most zx3's are actually getting worse fuel economy than the embarassing advertised fuel ratings!), and the fact that the thing is incredibly slow, i dont think i can bring myself to do it.

i dont know what civic mdriver was referring to, but this is the civic Si forum, right? the Si's 2liter engine will offer considerably more power than any focus currently available, and i'll believe in the svt when i see it. maybe the svt will be able to outrun an echo. =P torque? the 2.0liter zetec has its torque peak, if memory serves me, at 4500rpms, just like any peaky small displacement twin cam engine. not that it is a bad thing, but i wouldnt list torque as something the focus has over the civic, except maybe on paper.

when i drove the focus, i found it to be a decent ride, but i couldnt live in fear everyday that something would go terribly wrong. plus, the seating position was way too high(as it likely will be in the civic si as well) for my taste...

just my $.02
-rob

pocahontas · July 2001

Edmunds.com's First Look of the 2002 Honda Civic Si is now available. Here's the full story: 2002 Honda Civic Si, Return of the Great Cheap Date, by By Warren Clarke. Let us know what you think. ;-)

Happy Motoring!

Pocahontas
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards

kroliph · July 2001

I don't mind the looks of the new Civic Si. I'm actually glad to see it return to a hatchback design. It definitely adds an extra degree of utility over the previous Si. I hope Honda doesn't forget to dial up the handling responsiveness. Does anyone know if they are going to be including a strut tower brace? It still seems strange to be asking that question about a Honda.

Does anyone know when they are going to be selling this car? I went to my local Acura Dealer to drive a RSX Type S and the only one they had was sold. The dealer had a real attitude as well. He made it clear to me that the only way I was going to look at one was if I was serious about buying. Maybe I'll try again in a few months when all the hype is over.

silver_bullet · July 2001

I've read that this car won't become available in the U.S. until next summer - too long of a wait, IMHO. Honda needs to get this car to our market ASAP, before they lose even more credibility with performance buyers. Acura and Honda dealers (not surprisingly) seem to come from the same mold - obnoxious and arrogant. Gee, maybe they used to work at the BMW store

sobers · July 2001

were 32K+ last month & in June is it 33+. It seems it will cross all the expectations without any incentives or spacial rates etc.

Civic is selling very well & much better than other compacts without any help !

That asnwers why 98 Camry LE & 98 Civic LX with the same mileage are available at the same price(edmunds tmv private party) !

pere_ubu · July 2001

the Focus does not beat out the 2001 Civic in terms of room - unless you're comparing the ZX3 with the Civic coupe. And even there, the redesigned suspension allows enough interior for the Civic to be now reclassified as a "compact" instead of "subcompact". Sitting in the back of a Civic coupe in only a squeeze if you've got two 6'5", 250lbs guys back there.

As for torque -- surreal explained it well: for all the better numbers, the Civic actually is a faster car. I mean, all the Civic trims are faster than any of the Foci, and they all get at least 32/37 mpg. 'Nuff said. (I'm not sure how the Si will compare with the SVT in those departments, but I doubt the SVT will get anywhere near the mpg that the Si will.)

Handling: I test drove a few Foci before I bought my Civic, and I have to admit that they handle real well and are a blast to drive. I'd give the Focus an "A" in the handling and fun-to-drive department. I don't know what Ford did to make such an inexpensive car handle so well, but someone at Ford is a genius.

HOWEVER - (ahem) - it should be pointed out that the new Civic is no slouch in the handling department either. I'd give it an "A-" in the handling department. But that goes for the EX model, which has front and rear stabilizer bars. The HX, LX, and DX probably handle real well; but probably are a step down from the Focus in that area.
.
With all that said, I should report something that I'm not too happy about, and which will gratify the anti-Civic people: The current Civic is now subject to a recall involving improperly tightened fuel filler hose clamps. My appointment to have it checked out is next week. So now we Civic owners can't rank anymore on the Focus owners about all their recalls.

But in the long run, our Civics are practically bulletproof. Oil and tire changes are the only maintenance we'll ever be needing up to 100K.

pere_ubu · July 2001

Honda is dragging their feet on the Si to their detriment, and a lot of potential Si buyers are going to go the way of Focus SVT, Nissan Sentra SE-R, or even Mazda Protege in the meantime.

My only guess is that they're afraid the Si might cut into RSX sales, but Honda/Acura has got more to worry about in the form of the WRX than their own Si, imo. Bad management on Honda's end.

novcenthusiast · July 2001

hi all,

Honda management needs to have some of their senior engineers make a lateral move to their deprtment so they can get a clue.

I think the problem with Honda USA is Acura. They probably won't bring the CTR over to these shores because they'd be afraid of hurting RSX sales. Thats likely the reason the Si is about 10ft-lbs of torque short of the base RSX. I'm wondering how difficult it would be to find a left hand drive version of the CTR and bring it over here.

Looks: wouldn't be that bad if not for the Focus headlight treatment. In fact the Type R with other body pieces almost looks good.

Shifter placement: From an engineering standpoint it makes perfect sense. In a FWD car there doesn't seem to be any reason to have the shifter on the floor. How its feels shifting it remains to be seen but I'll bet after a little acclimation no one will care.

Honda Civic Si / SiR 2005 and earlier

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