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Comments
I suspect that the Wind Deflectors that mount to the roof, in front of the opening, would help - I never got one, as they mean No More Automatic Car Washes - but I still wonder. Anyone got one of those?
I think if you trace back through the months you will find a startling consistency in the posts to this site (which I'm pretty sure is about discussing problems, as opposed to exalting manufacturers).
I'm a regular guy who drives many rental vehicles for my job. I've never experienced what I have with this 2004 Highlander. I came to edmunds to see if by chance I was crazy (as you are proposing) and thank God (and this forum) I found corroboration...enough to validate that there is a real quality problem. Sure, the car rides smooth, nice interior, great features. But I have basically 3 requirements for a vehicle: 1) go when I step on the gas; 2) stop when I step on the brake, and 3) turn when I turn the wheel. My car does 2/3 of these rather nicely.
As far as anyone's remarks being inappropriate for this forum, the rules aren't hard to understand.
It's up to the host to make decisions as to what's OK and what isn't, not us as individuals.
I believe that's already been made quite clear.
We have been reminded once to confine our comments to HLs, good or otherwise, so let's just do that OK?
You say you are having problems with your HL, but that's not my fault. I'm very sorry that you are and wish I could do something to help you. Unfortunately I cannot.
But not everyone has the kinds of problems you have, in fact the vast majority of HL owners seem unaffected by those conditions.
I don't believe that the number of posted occurrences in this forum is an indication that the hesitation issue is "epidemic" by any means.
That's my opinion and I said so.
Please lighten up and try not to take it so personally.
For those of you that don't have this issue....be glad and happy that you don't.
I'd love to see toyota fix their hesitation problem. However, all they've done about it in the last 12 months is stall, deny and leave customers no recourse except arbitration and lemon law filings.
Until theres a TSB and recall, don't buy a highlander, solara, sienna, es330 or rx330 based on Toyota's reputation. Take a test drive. Decelerate, punch the gas, and if it's drives like a $40000 vehicle should, buy it. If not, move on.
Now I know using a stopwatch while driving is neither practical nor safe, but perhaps another method might be worthy of a try.
I suggest using a memnonic I use when first starting the 210 before a flight. It's engine is fuel injected, and one must activate the fuel boost pump for 3 seconds before starting up. I simply count off the following at a moderate speed: "One thousand and one, one thousand and two, one thousand and three", while holding down the boost pump switch. Voila---three seconds just went by and the engine starts every time!! (I've checked this with an actual stopwatch and it's pretty darn accurate)
So here's what might be worth trying. Floor the accellerator from 30 MPH and start counting the moment the pedal hits the floor. Stop the count when the engine begins to accellerate. Note where the count stopped.
I've tried this with three HLs in the past two weeks, our own which can't be persuaded to hesitate past the first "one" no matter how I try, another off a dealer lot which didn't hesitate at all,and my friend's HL which couldn't get past the first "one" either.
I've also experimented with our other two vehicles (neither of them Toyota). One--a big V8 equipped pickup--got to the "thousand" before gearing down and accellerating, and the other--another big V8 luxury sedan (about the size of a boat!)--took the whole 9 yards or at least one full second before getting going. Even at that though, I wouldn't consider a one second hesitation excessive or dangerous.
Anybody willing to report their results? Only one condition--please be factual and resist any temptation to exaggerate!
Since you don't have this issue, why don't you just let it go. It's not really up to you to prove or deny the issue.
I don't have it either, but I've had problems with other cars and had frustrating instances of skepticism from posters on these boards.
Nothing really productive will come out of asking people to "prove" their problem. It's not necessary (particularly since Toyota has admitted the problem), and it's not really anyone else's place to ask someone to prove it.
I've been holding back....but not anymore.
Pilot, I'm happy you don't have this issue with your HL, but others do so if you don't like reading about it, DON'T!
It's rather simple, let the others explain the problem/s they are having (which this forum is all about) and if you don't agree, go to another page because we are all getting tired of you trying to dismiss this issue!
Happy Holidays everybody!
The opening sentence: "It would be interesting to have more factual and less subjective info about this hesitation issue" clearly explains my intent.
This forum has seen much speculation about the issue by many individuals, some insisting it's a problem, some not so convinced, others saying it's not.
If there's anything at all consistent about this discussion it's that there's been far more subjectivity than objectivity,and lots of speculation but few (if any) real conclusions.
I believe it would go a long way toward clarifying the issue for everyone if some of the folks who say they have a problem could provide more factual info. Can you suggest reasons why this should be a problem for anyone who is genuinely looking for answers and perhaps solutions? That's the reason why I'm here, and I assume there are others who feel the same way.
Question for you both. Is it not allowed to express opinions or ideas in these forums which might not agree with yours?
Thanks! Love the Highlander.
Sorry but these problems (hesistation) are real, not opinions but actual occurences.
Sure, express your ideas but don't try and tell us these issues aren't happening because they are.
Maybe you don't relize it but you are coming across like we are just "making this up".
I really don't understand what's not to agree with since you don't have this problem.
So I'll ask again...why do you care?
Why not come up with something positive instead of negative....or better yet, nothing at all.
I'm interested in the Highlander "hesitation" issue because I own one. I'm here because I want to learn more about that issue, period.
My opinions and ideas about the issue are not intended as an affront, criticism, doubt, or in any way intended to suggest people are making this up.
I believe I have as much right to address the issue as anyone else, provided it's done according to the rules here.
Having said that, I won't get into any further debate with you two (or anyone else) on personalities, why I'm here, or what I can or cannot ask about the issue. I believe we take direction on those issues from the Host of this forum, not individual posters.
Now, about the issue.
I would welcome any information from anyone with the hesitation problem who chooses to provide it.
For those who choose not to provide it, that's OK too. It's your decision and I respect it..
One thing I'm particularly interested in learning is: "how long a hesitation interval are we talking about here?"
So far, no such specific information has appeared in this, or any other forum that I've seen.
Problem solving 101 = "Define The Problem."
This element of the puzzle has been conspicuous by its absence.
There have been complaints posted about hesitation, much displeasure expressed because of it, and lots of very graphic depictions about what might happen as a result of it, but very little detail on the nature of the problem.
Defining any problem is fundamental, it's a positive step, and needs addressed to put the problem into any sort of rational perspective.
I look forward to any responses in this regard.
Thanks in advance.
The problem as I see it is to wit: The people who have the hesitation think we should all have it, and those who don't, think those who do are a small percentage of vocal owners. Nobody will win the other over to their side.
In the meantime though, I really would like to learn what the duration of this "hesitation" problem being reported actually is.
I think it would shed at least some light on the issue.
Thanks a bunch.
Scoti1--It states "1 to 2" seconds. Not too specific and only one piece of data. The author didn't seem to be too alarmed about it. Hopefully there'll be more data over time, then maybe a better profile will emerge. Forgive me, I'm just an Engineer--we tend to fixate on lots of data.
Thanks for the heads up..
One final observation. In the post referenced by Scoti1, the author states he was able to reproduce the hesitation after allowing the 05 HL to decellerate to the lowest gear, then "punching" it. That was when the 1-2 second delay occurred, apparently. I wonder if this characteristic is typical, ie, that it typically happens when the tranny is in the lowest gear after decelleration. Any similar/common experiences on this aspect of the puzzle?
Here are two other references to the 1-2 second delay:
#1935 of 2172 Test Drove an 05 Highlander & 05 Rx 330 by audionut1 Nov 03, 2004 (12:02 am)
Reply
The highlander had the trans/engine hesitation issue...slowing down to a near stop and then after applying the gas, 1-2 sec hesitation, then the trans shifted abruptly. I was able to replicate this behavior time and time again. However, the Rx trans/engine was always smooth. We have a 2002 Highlander and it's been great...very quiet, very comfortable seats, smooth engine and trans. My brother in law is a master tech for Lexus...the 05 Rx has new software which fixs this hesitation problem. Interesting that Toyota has not applied this patch to the highlander.
And
#1980 of 2172 05 V6 Hesitation by jcor Nov 11, 2004 (4:40 pm)
Reply
Found this site after seaching the web on this issue. My 05 V6 2WD Highlander has 1-2sec hesitation when coasting at 10-20mph then accelerating. It's so un-nerving that my teen will not drive it because of the hesitation. It's certainly annoying and possibly dangerous particularly at intersections and turns with oncoming traffic. I plan to bring it up as a major issue at my upcoming 1000mi service, but want to be prepared for the service mgr. After reading all the posts on this, I'm still confused. Is there really a "fix" that Lexus has for the 05 Rx330 that would work on the Highlander, or is this just speculation. Does Toyota or Lexus acknowledge this problem even exists? Has anyone had this problem sucessfully fixed by a Toyota dealer? If so, what was done? Thanks.
Just as a trial, not as a solution.
Have we confirmed, or not, that it is only the FWD vehicles and not the AWD vehicles?
I'm back in No. Cal. now with no hesitation issues.
I feel sorry for those that drive in heavy and fast traffic daily and have to put up with the hesitation issue. I believe now that it is real!
Pilot -- Now that you've received a bit of observational information from those who have experienced the hesitation, what does your engineer's mind tell you about what may be the cause?
So far you've got some saying the interval is one to two seconds; some very graphic and dramatic stories devoid of any tangible data as to interval time; others saying the interval is a split second at most; still others who say there is no hesitation at all; a corporate position that's been misinterpreted; and much of the issue wrapped in speculation and editorializing.
If you want me to make any kind of statement, the most I would dare to say is that Desertguy may be even closer to the truth than we all thought!
Let's just be patient and see where this goes.
Remember--Problem Solving 101. Any problem, if it exists at all, really should be identified before pointing at causes or solutions. That doen't seem to be the case in this situation. Most of those reasonable people you point to would suggest the accused is being executed with no benefit of factual,consistent, or conclusive
evidence, much less a fair trial.
But I'm fairly sure "reasonable" isn't what you wanted to hear, correct??
Pilot, you're back on the "if it exists at all" kick. Good for you!
I'm still listening.....
I remember the first time I experienced hesitation a couple of years ago -- it seemed like it was somewhere between 1 to 2 seconds in duration. I think this is because you're typically in a critical situation when the hesitation occurs, when even fractions of a second can seem like an eternity.
wwest, next time I think to do it, I'll try down-shifting to see whether it cuts-short the hesitation. (My prediction: it won't make any difference -- gear shifting will be subject to the ECM's hesitation algorithm.)
(pilot130, you want to know why there's notable absence of factual data on these boards? I'll tell you why there's notable absence of factual data on these boards. It's because we're lazy! We prefer to spend our time idly posting messages rather than getting out there and performing detailed experiments to accurately characterize the hesitation issue. That sounds too much like work. If you're like me, you're spending your time on these boards because you want a break from work! Isn't that why we're all here?)
Isofar as most of us being either lazy or taking a break from work, I cannot speak to that.
I can say, however, my primary interest in this issue is only to learn.
I can also say it appears some here want only to condemn, and accepting anything beyond their preconceived conclusions aren't tolerated.
Thanks for the input in any event.
http://www.pittsburghpostgazette.com/pg/04345/424551.stm
Sounds like personal insults are being slung at pretty much everyone who has posted their experience on this issue.
Phil
And that worries me since I don't have the.problem. If they come up with a software fix (which I'm sure is what they are working on) they will probably perform this update on all five speed transmission cars when they come in for service or at customers request. Been there done that with both a Lincoln LS and a Jag XType, both of which were less drivable after "the fix." That will probably screw my HL up. I would think they will be out with a TSB soon and would highly doubt there will be any recall.
Cadillac installed an over-running clutch within the transmission of their FWD cars equipped with the high HP high torque Northstar engine as a result of too many loss of control incidents on curving downhill icy, slippery, roadbeds.
When and if the driver happens to quickly get off the gas the engine would provide so much drag to the front wheels that they would lose traction with the roadbed.
These are all FWD, or front biased AWD vehicles we are talking about here. Maybe the degree to which they are subject to teh Caddy problem is not as great, but they are most definitely subject to the problem!
Now, if you asked me to stand up and truthfully testify before a court of law to the following I would have absolutely no reservations about doing so.
"My 2001 AWD RX300 somehow puts the transmission in an engine "no-drag" mode during coastdown. It also puts the transmission in an engine no-drag mode just before coming to a full stop."
"These incidents are either extremely rare, or if this activity is consistent, then my ability to take note of them is somehow lacking. I very rarely notice these effects."
Now for the assumptions.
Just suppose, instead of adding an over-running clutch, Toyota decided to eliminate the potential for loss of control in these circumstances by finding a different method.
Most of us, or maybe not, have at one time or another driven a vehicle with a manual transmission. Out of absolute necessity just before coming to a stop you would always release the clutch. If you were traveling down an icy roadbed and decided to coastdown you would most likely depress the clutch. At least long enough to put the transmission into neutral.
So suppose that's just what Toyota decided to do with my front torque biased AWD 2001 RX300, put the transmission in neutral to prevent loss of control incidents as a result of engine braking to the front wheels on an icy roadbed.
My 2001 RX300 has the trailer towing package, extra transmission cooling radiator, which has NEVER been used. The owners manual indicates that the transmission fluid is good for the life of the transmission.
At 38K miles my transmission fluid looks and smells burned and Lexus just told me that I should flush and replace the fluid every 15,000 miles.
It can be pretty hard on the transmission clutches and bands if the transmission is not in first gear when I decide not to come to a full stop after all and go WOT instead. My gas pedal is mechanically coupled to the intake, if I say go, the engine RPM starts to climb.
But most, if not all, of those complaining of hesitation have an e-throttle. So let's suppose the follow-on fix for my burned transmission fluid is to not allow the engine RPM to rise until the transmission is in the proper gear.
So, you are coming to a full stop, and at some point the system decides to shift the transmission such that it eliminates engine drag. And now lets say that just about the time the mechanics of the transmission have started to move into this "non-engine-drag" mode, you go WOT.
Does the transmission have to fully complete the initial shifting sequence into "non-engine-drag" mode before it's ECU will accept/begin another shift sequence?
At just what point in the above scenario did you go WOT?
One thousand one, one thousand two, etc....
Or does it?
car salesman always claim to have never heard of any problem with any car they are selling
I can assure you, I'm not closed minded on the subject by any means. I don't have it on our HL, I know others who don't, and know no one who does, but that doesn't mean I believe it's non existent nor that some kind of fix (if it does it'll probably a TSB) will eventually be instituted by Toyota.
Contrary to those who insist Toyota ignores customer concerns to customers, I truly believe Toyota is more sensitive to customer concerns that most other automakers--that's why they are consistently at the top of their game.
Just to comment on your thoughts. There's a great deal more drag on a 4x4 driveline, hence more inertia, more cumulative slack within the system, and because of different geometry, more driver noticeable quirkiness. All of these factors can contribute significantly different characteristics to a 4x4 vehicle, and especially, first time 4x4 owners might be particularly sensitive to the differences. That concept might also be a factor in this issue, and has been noted, but isn't always included with the much touted Toyota quote (inferred to as an admission of culpability by those same advocates) in that Pittsburg Newspaper. I'm of the opinion (just an opinion--not a conclusion folks!!) that driver sensitivity may indeed be a big part of the puzzle. Having read through all of this forum, and other forums making reference to the problem, I think there's some merit there.
Not wanting to further upset those who advocate I've got no business participating here, I'll just leave it at that for the time being.
Besides, it's almost Christmas, and there are much more important concerns at this time of year.
Too bad those truly important concerns don't continue throughout!!
Happy Holidays Everyone!!
I bought the vehicle in late 2000, and here it is late 2004, 4 years and 40k miles. And yet the number of times the effects have been noticeable enough to get my attention I'd bet I could count on my fingers.
So, rather than attributing it to driver sensitivity, I would attribute it to the absolute rarity of the exacting circumstances wherein it is noticeable to the driver.
As a for instance, I would be willing to bet that all 04 and later FWD Toyota/Lexus vehicles are subject to the effect.
One fine day I was working around the car while the blower motor was running at a fairly high speed when I noticed a vibrational, fluttering, sound coming from the rear of the vehicle.
It turned out to be the reverse flow flap fluttering in and out, open and shut, as a result of the cabin volume's cavity resonance effect.
And yes, removing it will likely result in some level of exhaust fumes inside the car but only in specific circumsatnces. AS you travel down the road the aerodynamic effect will result in a somewhat higher air pressure on the underside of the vehicle than elsewhere, sometimes forcing reverse flow.
Since the exhauster outflow is under the driver's side rear quarter panel (RX300) it is this very effect that helps to make the already too small exhauster port much less efficient than it should be.
You can overcome the reverse flow problem by turning the blower motor up an extra notch.
The problem was the simulation goal was increased fuel economy. If no "conditioned" air escapes the cabin, then the A/C compressor will run a lot less.
What is this magical cure on page 34 of the Owner's Manual to which you refer? An Adjustment of some kind? Or is it just the slight opening of a rear window that I've used before?
You seem to be the only Forum member that's got the handle on this. Please share...
And, Happy Holidays, all!
Many new Highlanders are not setup correctly by the dealer and often the owner will have to refer to page 34 to normalize the sunroof. I know I did.
I am not sure whether you are referring to excess noise with the roof open or closed. If you mean with the roof open, then cracking a rear window will definitely help. If you mean with the roof closed then try the normalization procedure.
Going from the Avalon to the HL the tranny and brakes are like night and day. In general I like the HL very much, but wish Toyota would address these 2 issues. The Avalon tranny does do one thing, when coming almost to a stop it seems to hesitate long enough to downshift that if you accelerate before it downshifts you get a sudden slam and acceleration. If you come to a full stop this does not happen. This same effect is in the HL tranny. It makes you want to come to a full stop. I believe that the trannys are educating the drivers how to use it.Maybe thats what adaptive trannys do. I for one would like to have the trannys do what I tell it to.
I agree that Toyota has gone and fixed something that wasn't broken. Too bad we have to depend on Toyota for a solution to a problem they created.
By the way, has anyone noticed the hesitation in a 4runner? Can't find any mention of it in the 4runner forum.
But then mine has a mechanical throttle coupling.
I'm placing my bet on Toyota using the e-throttle to prevent the engine from responding until the transmission "settles" into the proper gear.
But then there remains the question of why do this, why "drop out of gear" in the first place.
And my bet here is on prevention of loss of control due to engine drag on an icy roadbed.
If you were driving a high torque FWD (or maybe even a RWD) vehicle on an icy street or on black ice and with a manual transmission wouldn't "this" be just about the right point you would be releasing the clutch?
The reason for the need to extend the life of the bands and clutches is because the transmission is dropping out of gear during coastdown and/or when coming to a stop in order to prevent loss of directional control due to engine drag at the driven, front, wheels of a FWD vehicle.
Once the transmission has dropped out of gear in these instances, or by pure happenstance is in the process of dropping out of gear, the bands and clutches would be quickly worn down if the engine were allowed to build torque before the transmission can be "put" into the proper gear.
The 4runner will never exhibit this symptom
because it is RWD or rear biased AWD/4WD. And yes, the driven wheels of a RWD, or a rear torque biased AWD might also "lock" due to engine drag torque, but you would still have directional control so the hazard there would not be nearly as great.
get real.