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Oil Filters, whose is best, and Why?
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Quaker State are Fram and should be avoided at all costs. One can certainly tell Fram filters from any other.
I've seen most of the Champion Labs filters disassembled at Auto Zone and they all look very similar. STP has replaced Deutsch at AZ and SuperTech replaced STP at Wal-Mart.
The original MOPAR oil filter study was anti Champion Labs because of paper quality. I think the reference said the filtering medium looked flimsy. (Of course the Acura study was against some medium that looked "fuzzy") Supposedly the author backed down after threats from Champion Labs attorneys. The later study doesn't have this reference. The earlier anti-Champion comments are mirrored on certain sites.
In examining Champion Labs filters, the paper quality looks fine to me. Any comments on this from our paper expert?
multi pass filtration 94%, average competition 79%
source: Champion Labs
Fram: Single 96%, competition 64$
Multi pass 94%, competition 82%
I believe these figures are on Super Tech and Fram boxes despite the model number.
Question: I always assumed Fram would give the lowest possible results. If this is the case, what is the reference filter that performs worse? Apparently both of these studies refer to "averages".
Also, Why are average multi pass filtrations at a lower rate than single pass? Why are the referenced filters higher at single pass tests (that would seem to make more sense)?
Later
In your opinion, is it wise to go with a highly efficient filter, or are they so efficient that they tend to clog and go into bypass prematurely?
You can count on the paper in a Champion Labs filter being "good paper." I am including the paper Champion Labs buys from our competitor, but, of course, I think our paper is even better.
Champion Labs does a lot of testing of their filters. They often have us send hand-rolled coils of our paper taken from the outside of one of the rolls of paper that we are going to ship them, and they make elements in their model shop using this paper. They then put these elements on their tests stands to check the performance of the paper.
Champion Labs does an excellent job of building filters, they use top quality media, and they do frequent testing, so I wouldn't put too much faith in an article that casts them in a negative light.
tom
I think another of his comments on the MiniMopar thread was that some Champion Labs units had rust on internal portions of the filter. I seem to remember this from a few years ago, but haven't seen it lately.
Personally I usually use Champion Labs filters. I think they're good value. I yell and scream when getting an oil change at Wal-Mart, insisting on no Fram.
We recently acquired the business for the media that is used in the Super Techs, and I was very impressed with the specs for this paper. (Our main competitor in automotive lube filter media has left the market place and will be concentrating on other paper products. We have inherited a lot of new business because of this, and the Super Tech media is one of our new grades.)
tom
It might be possible to "counterfit" name brand products (remember a report on counterfit, rebottled oil about a decade ago). Obviously Wal-Mart is much less likely to do this than some small mom and pop parts store.
This is why I am not certain that the high efficiency filters are necessary. I am, for the first time ever, using one of the high efficiency filters. I have just had one put on my '89 S-10 pickup at the last oil change.
I think they are designed so as not to clog too early, so I wouldn't worry about that, but you just have to decide for yourself if the higher efficiencies in the small particle sizes is really doing anything to prolong your engine life.
I guess one way of looking at it is that "it sure couldn't hurt," assuming that these filters don't cause too much restriction or clog too soon.
tom
Obviously, the nature of the contaminate would have a major impact on the efficiency of filtration, other things being equal. Different contaminates are used for multi pass vs single pass.
The single pass test most often uses glass beads, as far as I know. An engineer at one of our customers told me just today that they most often use glass beads with a 10 to 70 micron size distribution for their single pass testing.
The multi pass test uses actual dust that has been screened and blended to contain particles within a specified distribution. This test dust used to be referred to as "Arizona Road Dust," and I'm not sure if that was just industry slang, or if maybe the stuff really was literally, "Arizona road dust." It was once supplied to the industry by AC, and now it is supplied by PTI.
The particle size distribution of the test dust runs down to smaller particles than does that of the glass beads, so, naturally, the efficiency of filtration will be lower for the test dust.
tom
Fortunately, the filters I have been directly asked about so far are ones that I have confidence in. I was able to give a truthful, positive answer.
What will I do if someone asks about a filter that I think is a piece of crap? If I remain silent, my silence will speak volumes, and if I answer truthfully and say that I think it is a piece of crap... well, you know I can't do that.
So, no more comments from old Tom about specific filters, regarless of whether I like them or whether I don't. OK?
I will be glad to speak about filters and filter media in general terms, however.
tom
Later
Thanks,
davisjd
Actually, you have to balance filtering out every microscopic bit against maintaining a steady, healthy flow of oil.
--- Bror Jace
Don't you want to know the pressure of the clean oil going to the engine?
tom
care to explain the facts?
Mobil 1 filters have an excellent internal build quality, but for the price, very few are going to shell out 3 times the cost, and when they were stocked at the favorite DIY parts stores, there were only limited sizes available, which made them even less popular. there are still a few left, and like i said, they have stopped stocking them, which means, no-reorder.
hope this helps........but i would really like to hear your reasons for the drop in oil pressure if you have one.
or if i'm wrong about the filter being restrictive, and it is indeed less restrictive, then that means it is not filtering as well as it should, which is another reason why i won't use it.
I'm still confused about where the reading is normally taken, upstream or downstream from the filter?
There must be someone in this group that can answer that question.
Looks to me like it would be most important to know the pressure of the oil that is going to where the oil is needed, which would be downstream from the filter.
If the pressure reading is taken downstream of the filter, though, then why is the pressure reading higher when the engine is cold and the oil viscosity is higher? You would be getting less flow through the filter with cold oil, and it would make sense that the pressure would go up on the inlet (upstream) side of the filter, and down on the outlet side.
I still think it should be measured on both sides!
tom
If the filter has a bypass valve then a driver may notice different oil pressure with different filters because the filter valve may open at varying pressures with each filter (individually or diff makers..if a certain brand has high pressure drop across the filter and the bypass only bypasses at a relatively high filter back pressure a driver would probably notice the differences more like when cold/hot/high speed/low speed etc..
If the engine has the bypass the driver should notice less variance because no matter what filter is there the bypass always opens at the same value so even if the filter is totally clogged the bypass opens the whole time and the pressure at the gauge sensor would be the same anyway (I think the sensor is probably after the filter, otherwise I think that engine speed would clearly show oil pressure differences, most pumps uses regulators to keep flow at required levels and just let the pump do its work by itself...fuel pumps use a regulator and then bypass extra fuel back to the tank is a good example (also helps mix up fuel additives when you add them after tank is full), the oil filter (and bypass valve) would also be a "pressure regulator"..(and it's not just the paper efficiency either, you have to check the size and number of the holes in the inside tube of the filter too, they cause back pressure too.
I used to use FRAMs but after learning about them and checking the bypass valve they use, it was probably bypassing most of the time and I never knew it.
If a filter does too good of a job at catching junk it will clog up relatively faster and start bypassing earlier and then you just lost the benefit of the filter anyway, sometimes the "high efficiency" is not such a good thing unless there is enough paper to last long enough to go a reasonable time/mileage.
For an example, pay attention to the air filter in your house, it stays clean for a while and when it starts getting dirty, it gets dirtier quicker (higher efficiency at that point!) but you probably don't have an air bypass built in so your fan/motor has to work harder to push the air through and eventually burns out if you don't change the filter ..
I'm beginning to think that average efficiency and good consistent quality is the main thing that matters to me, I'd rather have a filter catch the big/medium stuff most of the time rather than catch ALL the stuff some of the time and bypass a lot of the time.
Who would spend 3 times the amount for an oil filter? I would. Who would trust the life of their engine to a $3 filter? Not me. I'll gladly spend the $10 for a Mobil 1 filter knowing I have the best filter made, and my engine will still be running like new 10 years from now.
you really did your homework, and i agree with you 100%.
Also, if engines are designed to constantly by-pass the filter with part of the oil flow, that's news to me. I know fuel systems are designed that way, but I never heard of an automobile lube system designed that way (of course, there's a lot of things I never heard of).
I know that the relief valve on a filter can be at the bottom or at top, but I never heard of a built-in bypass in the engine itself.
Man, I wish some automotive engineer would come by and straighten us all out here!
I don't know about the rest of you, but I am CORNFUSED!
tom
BOTTGERS, Think about it, you always have the highest actual pressure at the pump, it just goes down from there all the way finally back to the resevoir where it starts all over again. Each constriction causes "pressure drop" not "pressure add", think about water going through a hose and you pinch the hose with pliers, you are causing "pressure drop" and you can feel the pressure on the high side and you can tell it is reduced on the low side (you are reducing the flow also) . The filter is one of the restrictions to flow, it forces the oil to go through the paper/fiberglass/media...and then on through the several routes through the engine and finally drains back to the pan.
even then, some just won't admit they are wrong.
have a great weekend.
if a bypass valve is too weak (F R A M) then you will get bypass all the time and there ya go.
You will always see the oil pressure fluctuate with engine speed, but it should be less fluctuation after the filter than before it because of the bypass action, kind of has a leveling effect. You said you notice about 60 psi going down the road? it probably limits out close to that even if you speed up more right?? Maybe the gauge is before the filter I don't know but I do know the bypass keeps you from building up too much pressure and causing leaks everywhere before the filter and oil starvation everywhere after it
At low flow rates (low engine speed) you would have less pressure drop anyway, at higher speeds (higher flowrate) you actually are cramming the oil into the same filter and it is effectively blocking it more so you get more pressure drop. My example with the water hose, if you have the water on slow the pliers don't really stop the hose too bad either, but open the water all the way and you notice that now you are really constricting the flow because only so much can actually get out when you have it stopped up partially,,,,and no matter how fast it is coming out it will always be at the same PRESSURE as the atmosphere it is pouring into,,,weird huh?
As far as a $3 filter? Just make sure it is any $3 filter that is not orange , sorry , I get kinda carried away with that sometimes.
Y'all have a good weekend back to ya
I still think it would be cool to have a pressure reading just before and just after the filter, so that the restriction due to the filter could be monitored. I guess that would also allow you to know when the filter was by-passing, right?
Hey, I've never seen you post there, and I wonder if you are aware of "s-series.org?" It's a bulletin board for s-series vehicle owners. It's a really great place, and you ought to check it out sometime.
Here's a link...
http://www.s-series.org/phpBB/index.php
tom
and with a bypass the 2 gauges would not actually help much anyway.
I went to school at Auburn University and got a Chemical Engineering degree (I'm sure I just opened a can o'worms) and learned plenty about filtration. I took several labs that showed the effects of filtration/obstruction/restriction/alcohol intake
and all that so I did learn some basics at least.
It is amazing what the 2 gauges show as the filter media starts filling up, you see very quickly that filtration can be a bad thing very easily if not done properly...filtering too much can hurt worse than filtering too little actually.
I installed water filters on the water pipes to my house (I have a well) and I actually get better water after they get dirty for quite a while before I notice any restriction effects (low pressure at the faucetts..)
I realize you work for a filter paper manufacturer but I am actually not a big fan of really high efficiency filtering media, I figure that the dirt actually helps with the filtering work (limited help I know but it does add to the filter media and is basically "free help".
I do realize that better quality media/paper can hold more dirt before actually stopping up though and I am still looking at different filters as far as price/quality goes...I just have this hangup about those orange ones...
You having a good weekend yet? I am!
see ya ?(hear from ya actually) soon
And thanks for that s-series page, I'll be checking it soon, I've got 2 of 'em so I should probably see what the rest of the s-world thinks huh?
Rando
So you think I'm wasting my money on Mobil 1 filters, huh? I strongly disagree. I don't get 300,000 miles or more out of my cars by being lucky. I directly attribute this longevity to the use of Mobil 1 filters and full synthetic motor oil.
>the pressure going out of the pump should be the same as the pressure going in<....where do you come up with this folklore?
and when are you going to explain why we saw a pressure drop when using the Mobil 1 filter?
I still think we need a good automotive engineer to visit this board and give us a lesson on engine lubrication systems.
tom
The MOBIL1 filters are good , probably better than most of us need, I had a 1989 Nissan 280Z that I sold at 189000 miles never having any engine work, only used 20w50 Castrol oil and hate to say it "F R A M" filters..
changed oil at 3k and was never low on oil at the change. MOBIL1 did not exist at the time and neither did synthetic oil...
Granted with synth oil and MOBIL1 you should not have oil related problems, most people would not see them anyway these days so many people lease vehicles they rarely keep them long enough to realize the benefit of long term care. Some of us do keep a vehicle long enough to see it though and for us....well here we are ain't we?
If your into electrical theory? its similar to hydraulic ,,,,pressure is voltage, pressure drop is voltage drop, current is flow rate, resistors..same as filters or any other restriction point...wires cause some resistance to electric flow just like any pipe/tube causes some resistance to hydraulic flow as well
did everyone remember to set the clocks back?
see yall later
Rando
bottgers: this is not a slam, but perhaps you could take a basic hydraulics course. I think your confusion stems frum the nature of how a system reacts to a pump. Both have head curves which vary with flow. You seem to be interested in this subject. You probably would get a lot out of it.
zr2rando: Lots of good posts. Food for thought about the high efficiency filters. Thats why if you are using a gigh efficiency flter, synthetic oil is important in wintertime. BTW, Mobil and Amsoil were available in 1989. Mobil 1 in 1975 and Amsoil a bit earlier, I believe.
Al
tom
Although I won't be able to add any comments about the subject, I would love to know where you guys are getting your information about Fram filters by-passing. Can you put me onto this report?
Thanks
tom
We need to remember that above about 20 microns, the high efficiency filters are little, if any, more efficient than a regular filter. It's the little guys that are captured more efficiently with the high efficiency filters.
I have finally, for the first time, bought a high efficiency filter. I put a Pure One on my '89 S10. The oil pressure readings have not changed noticeably from when I was using just a regular PF52 AC filter. So, I am apparently not doing any harm by using the Pure One, but am I doing any good????
tom
Tubby and the Boys are gonna do some serious butt-kickin' this year!
tom
As far as the PURE ONE , nothing wrong with it that I've ever heard, looking at them the filter mmaterial seems to be great but they have little holes in the inside which makes me think they probably restrict flow a little there but from everything I've heard they are good filters----at least they make their own which is more than you can say for others...
As far as the FRAM bypass, I just cut one open and pushed on the valve and it had very little tension, made me think it took very little filter backpressure to keep it open...the paper looks fine but the cardboard ends look cheap...
WAR EAGLE!!!!!!
On the Pure One, I assume you are talking about the holes in the center tube that allow the oil that has passed through the paper to get to the engine? If so, they probably have MORE holes, even though they are smaller, so that the overall flow restriction is no worse than would be the case for center tubes with larger (but fewer) holes.
Now, tell me this, are you guys Plainsmen, War Eagles, or Tigers???? Gees, make up your minds! Maybe the local papers thought people would get bored with the headlines always reading "Tigers Beaten by Wildcats" during basketball season, so they came up with other names to call the team?
tom
P.S. Did you check out the s-series.org site yet?
Besides, differences of opinion make life interesting. This would be an awful boring place if we all had exactly the same knowledge and all held the very same opinions.
Stick around, Dude. Be part of the group. Learn stuff with the rest of us. Contribute stuff that you know. Express your opinions.
Later
tom