Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

john121 · January 2006

Great help Alcan! There is a cracked reluctor ring on the left front drive shaft. It was also just loose enough for me to move into temporary alignment with the sensor (being cracked it was skewed on the shaft). Test driving shows low speed self-test problem is gone. I will now read up on outer half-shaft replacement with a new ring - my next project! Thanks again for putting me on the right path.

alcan · January 2006

You're welcome. When you buy a reluctor ring, order 2. They're cheap, and f you don't have a spare you're sure to crack the replacement ring installing it. Murphy was a mechanic. LOL

john121 · January 2006

I like your idea of installing just the reluctor ring, if I understand correctly, because it sure looks like just a new ring needs to somehow be pressed onto the outer axle hub. I'm confused though by a manual that states "If a front ring becomes damaged, the outer CV joint and axleshaft assembly must be replaced". I can get the old ring off but is there a trick to getting a new ring on the axle hub without breaking it? Who is a good source for the rings? Thanks again for the detail on an alternate method.

alcan · January 2006

I order the rings from my local Ford dealer's parts department. Warming the replacement ring in a toaster oven or judicious use of a propane torch can help expand it so it's a fairly easy install. Hold it by 2 pairs of vise-grips 180 apart.Make sure the CV joint housing is cleaned well first.

john121 · January 2006

Excellent detail for this ring replacement. Thanks much Al.

tanjo · January 2006

I just wanted to update you all on the problem...it is fixed. We ended up putting in the used ABS motor, and now it is working like a charm.

Thanks for all the advice and help!

john121 · February 2006

Update on repair: I followed Alcan's advice on replacing the ABS system reluctor toothed ring this weekend without having to replace the complete halfshaft. Heated the ring with a torch and used a pvc pipe coupling of the same dia. to tap in on the driveshaft hub. In the process, learned how to pull and replace a halfshaft - think I'll be faster next time!
Can't thank you enough for your help Alcan.

pathf2 · February 2006

I have a 01 Honda Accord. I bought front disc pads from NAPA. About 10K later the right front pads were "gone" and the left were hardly worn. Don't know what material they were made of. I just bought Honda Disc pads and put them on. Any idea why the right side wore out? Don't want to wipe out these expensive Honda disc. No pulling and any other signs they were waring out. Something isn't right. Thanks, Path Finder

pathf2 · February 2006

I have a 01 honda accord. I replaced the front disc pads from NAPA auto parts. At 10K the "right front" pads were "gone". Left had little to no ware. What's going on? Bad material? No driving signs and everything looked normal around the rotor. Thanks, Path Finder

bpeebles · February 2006

Most likely you failed to file off the burrs where the pads press into while braking. If these burrs are not filed off, then the new pads are likely to bind where the old pads left the burrs.

Dont forget that while braking, the ENTIRE WEIGHT OF THE CAR is forced into the edge of the pads. The edge of the pads put this huge force against a metal "tang" that sticks out. (all that force into space about the size of a pencil-eraser!)

That metal "tang" gets burrs in it over time. If these burrs are not filed smooth when replacing pads, the new pads will not behave/last as well as they should. This is the same area that you should apply hi-temp brake-grease when installing new pads.

Personally, I perform PM (Preventive Maintenance)on my brakes every 2 years. I pull them apart, clean everything up, file off any burrs, re-grease and assemble. The brake-fluid has to be changed every 2 years also.... but I am sure you already knew that.

marsha7 · February 2006

It may also be possible that your RF caliper is frozen making the pads wear out...check the caliper for freely moving piston(s), and, now that the pads are worn, I would seriously check the rotor for possible replacement...

alcan · February 2006

You're very welcome! Glad to hear you got it sorted out.

wtd44 · February 2006

The best thing I ever did for a Jeep Grand Cherokee was put in NAPA near premium pads and rotors. The cost was close to $300 for parts and well worth it, to get rid of the maddening brake wear that Jeep doesn't see fit to address themselves!

ronnys · February 2006

I have a 1995 Toyota 4runner 2 wheel drive. I have owned this truck for a little over 3 years now, I'm currently rebuilding the engine but that's not where I need help, about 6 months ago I went out to warm up before leaving for work and as always the dash lights came on and it cranked I went back inside. I came back out about 15 minutes later and noticed the anti lock brake light was still on, there are no noticable difference in the brakes I have been told that the speed sensor can get dirty and cause this to happen. I washed around the wheels as suggested it's still on, while it's down for engine repairs I would like to take care of this problem also. Can anyone tell me what might be the problem? Where is the speed sensor located? Does it need to be replaced by the dealer (YIKES$$$$$)? I know what purpose this sensor is used for I just don't know anything else about it....HELP PLEASE

alcan · February 2006

Rear only or 4 wheel ABS?

ronnys · February 2006

Yes rear wheel only

alcan · February 2006

Here you go. Click any image to enlarge it:

http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/1- 6/25/f2/0900823d801625f2.jsp

ronnys · February 2006

Thanks for your help, I think (hope) I can get it from hear with this info.

alcan · February 2006

You're welcome. Let us know how you make out with it.

jjpcat · February 2006

I have a 2001 Civic LX with 73k miles. A new problem just show up. During the past week, there have been 4 occasions when the front right brake was making chirp chirp noise when the brake was NOT engaged. All these occasions happened right after I made a turn. To get rid of the noise, I had to bring the car to a stop and the noise would disappear immediately.

I did some research on the web. Some articles link the noise to bad pads. But I still can't understand why. If I have bad pads, shouldn't the noise kick in when the brake is engaged instead of when the brake is released.

I claim no expert in auto repair. So maybe some of you can explain in more details. Thanks.

It's said that Honda's brake pads last a long time. So, do you think 73k miles is normal for mixed local & freeway driving in metro area?

bolivar · February 2006

73,000 miles?

Give your car a small break, put brakes on it all around.

isellhondas · February 2006

For crying out loud!

Take it in and get the brakes inspected! the noise you hear is no doubt from your wear indicators!

73,000 miles is a LONG time for front pads to last! If you keep driving it you will need new rotors too!

Highly unlikely you will need rear brakes. These last 150,000 miles sometimes.

This isn't something to guess about.

ub1 · February 2006

i have a 2005 cobalt. i am experiencing with pulling and
when i am stopping the car pulls to the right/left and the wheel falls. i had 4 new tires put on under warranty because of tire cupping. since then, i have been experiencing an intermitten hard pedal. can anyone help me with these problems? can't recreate these problems for the dealer to do anything or gm...

bpeebles · February 2006

Isit the Cobalt one of those Daewoo-chevies made in Korea?

Since you are still under warantee, the best you can do is complain to the dealer often and MAKE SURE that they document every time you complained. Make it THEIR problem.

unfortunately - I suspect what you are experinecing may not be unusual for that vehicle. There is a reason that Daewoo did not sell cars in the USA for very long. My wife rented a Daewoo once in Colorado and she said it had a tough time keeping up with traffic at the 75MPH speedlimit.

ub1 · February 2006

actually it was produced in lordstown, oh. it 's a piece of crap...and i have been complaining alot! but thank you

wtd44 · February 2006

Would anyone disagree that brakes have moved way up to near the top of the list of irksome systems in modern cars. In the "olden days" brakes were virtually bullet proof: Then, they improved them... >:^(

bpeebles · February 2006

You bring up a good discussion-point about "modern" braking systems. You contend that they seem to be more "irksome" than you recall from the olden days.

Lets review some Facts:

In the "olden days", if one got 60,000 miles from their automobile - they were VERY lucky indeed. Most cars were ready for the scrapyard by then. (A Mercedies-Benz was the exception) Today, An automible is expected to be usable for at least 150,000 miles. (Almost double from the the "olden days") My daughter had her last car for about 260,000 miles!!

In the "olden days" there were DRUM brakes on all 4 wheels. (Some had Disk in front) The DRUM brake design is MUCH more heavy-duty (That is why big trucks still use DRUM brakes) Also, the brake systems were OVER designed and often more capable than they needed to be.

When fuel-efficnecy became an important factor (1970's), the designers made the cars lighter and altered the braking systems to handle the bare-minimum they needed to. (taking into account the lighter vehicle)

Then came SAFETY! Braking systems started to incorperate dual-redundant hydrolic systems. ABS started to be designed in to the systems. My car has ESP which is the next progression above ABS. ESP has the ability to apply the brakes on any of the 4 wheels indipendantly in response to the input from a myrad of sensors.(read- MORE COMPLICATED!)

Given all the above mixed in.... we now have more COMPLICATED braking systems that are working closer to their maximum abilities and are expected to last TWICE as long.

It is not very difficult to see why there are more problems with the braking systems on modern automobiles.

One of the biggest issues is that Brake fluid is hydroscopic (attracts water into itself) If the fluid is not changed, then your hydrolic system will corrode from the insisde-out. Given the tight clearances within hydrolic-systems, it does not take more than a pinpoint of rust to cause a failure.

To reduce the chance of failure due to water-contamination, BRAKE FLUID MUST BE CHANGED EVERY 2-3 YEARS!!

bolivar · February 2006

bpeebles, I agree with most of your statement.

Overall, cars are much better than 20 years ago. Much, much better than 30 years ago.

Fuel injection systems and their electronics are very good. Exhaust systems, with unleaded gas, last 5 times the life under leaded gas. Plugs will last to 100,000 miles. Oil to 7,500 to 10,000 per some manufactors recommendations (I just can't bring myself to strech it this far!) Antifreeze to 100,000 miles (Same comment!)There are no 'points and condensor'. Basically, there is no 'turnup' as in olden days until 50, 75, or 100,000 miles. Many, many cars, with reasonable maintenance will reach 150,000 miles, and more.

But, I think the braking system is one area where there are problems. I think the manufactors are purposefully under-designing braking systems, mainly in an effort to give their dealer network one area where they can make big money on 'maintenance' type repairs.

Rotors are designed too small and thin. Pads the same. Rotors do not have any extra metal allowing 'turning' them, which means they are to be completely replaced. And these repair services are greatly overpriced.

This underdesigning was not done a few years ago. You seldom saw warped rotors 20 years ago. Pads would last 40,000 miles minimum on most cars. Now there are many models where you have severe warping and pad replacement at 20,000 miles.

The concept of disc brakes has not changed. The design has been weaken by the manufactors.

tigercat21 · February 2006

Speaking of brake fluid being hydroscopic, does anyone know what happened to the synthetic brake fluid that was used a few years ago? I never see it mentioned anymore. I remember that you couldn/t mix it with conventional fluids.

alcan · February 2006

If you're referring to silicone based brake fluid, it can't be used in vehicles with ABS systems because it contains about 3x as much dissolved air as glycol based fluid and tends to aerate when forced through small orifices such as those found in ABS pressure modulators. It also tends to produce a spongy brake pedal as it's about twice as compressible as glycol fluid.

The only U.S. manufacturer who used silicone fluid as OE was Harley Davidson, and that was for paint damage concerns. HD has now switched to conventional glycol fluid.

gonogo · February 2006

Changing brake fluid is no big deal, I have done it twice on my 1999. I use the simple gravity method, open a bleeder and fluid will drain, just takes a little patience. And the next time the anti-lock brakes activate it flushes them. I never replaced brake fluid until the ABS came on the scene.

tigercat21 · February 2006

Thank you sir for the response. It seems that years ago i saw a master cylinder on a car that said "silicone brake fluid only". It could be that my memory is playing tricks on me though.

I do see thats theres a lot more negatives then positives for silicone brake fluid. I read that some classic car owners switch over to it though. Probably not a good thing to do.

bpeebles · February 2006

Another drawback from silicone fluid is that it is NOT hydroscopsic. (I know...I just thru telling you that being hydroscopic was bad... but the scope the discusion has expanded now...)

With glycol-based brake fluid, it will keep in suspension a certain amount of water which acts as a "buffer". Only after it has absorbed too much water does it need to be replaced. (2-3 years...NOT milage dependant!!)

The Silicone brake fluid, being impervious to water, will let all moisture fall to the LOWEST POINT of the brake system and collect there as droplets. This is usually where the walls of your brake-cylinders exist....thus Silicone fluid has been shown to cause more-frequent brake-cylinder failures.

How does the moisture get in there? Same way it gets in your gas tank and oil sump! As the weather changes (temp. and humidity) condensation occours in the system.

gonogo · February 2006

Moisture migrates right through the hoses into the brake system.

alcan · February 2006

Yep, right through microscopic pores in the hoses. For condensation to occur, water has to be present in the first place.

wtd44 · March 2006

Brake systems that require new pads, perhaps even new rotors, at the 20+-K mile point on original equipment are problematic. That was the real point of my #1257 post. Otherwise, I agree that today's vehicles are MUCH improved over those of the "olden days." We get a lot of freedom from anxiety that used to be prevalent. :shades:

richardson · March 2006

You people should read this link. http://www.babcox.com/editorial/bf/bf50412.htm

bpeebles · March 2006

THANKS!! That is a very informative paper about the most recient findings into brake-system corrosion. The finding of copper and iron ions in the fluid which inhibit the buffers is very interesting.

I like the idea of using "test strips" diped into the master-cylinder to determine the ion concentration in the fluid. I wonder where one could procure these "test strips"?

The bottom line is the same.... CHANGE YOUR BRAKE FLUID REGULARLY. This will replenish the additives that get "used up" by the copper and iron ions.

richardson · March 2006

I found brake fluid test strips on line. 100 for about 55.00. That's more than I want to buy.

tigercat21 · March 2006

I wonder how accurate testing from the master cylinder is. Its not like brake fluid circulates like motor oil. Contaminents could be at higher levels at outer parts of brake lines and lower in master cylinder reservoir. I read that water tends to accumulate near wheel cylinders, even though the hydroscopic properties of brake fluid are suppose to distribute it throughout the fluid.

richardson · March 2006

I wonder too. It seems to me, it's the same fluid that moves a little unless there is a leak or it is flushed.

bolivar · March 2006

Water will cause two problems.

-If the brakes get hot, water near the brakes could boil. Once it boils into steam, it is very compressible. Which means you have soggy or no brakes.

-Water accumulating on metal parts, especially in the piston bores or master cylinder bore, will rust the metal causing pits. Pits will cause leaks when the seals move across them.

wtd44 · March 2006

Hygroscopic is the more often used form for hydroscopic.

artgeek · March 2006

The master cylinder on my 1982 Chevy van has been leaking from the reservoir; it comes out between the reservoir and the reservoir lid. What is causing this? The cylinder was recently replaced and I had the same problem with the old one. It is as though there is some back pressure causing it to push out at the top.

Thanks for any assistance, my mechanic doesn't seem to know what it is.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2006

overfilled perhaps? Hmmmm...what else.....warped rotors?

wtd44 · March 2006

It sure would seem that the reservoir has been overfilled. If the rotors are warped, and someone filled it, then the warped rotors might "back off" the pads and thus push fluid toward the reservoir, causing the overflow... (?)

artgeek · March 2006

I know it isn't overfilled because it keeps leaking even after I notice that the braking power has gone down from lack of fluid. Then I refill, not to the very top, and the braking power comes back to normal.

I'll have someone check out the rotors. Thanks for the feedback.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2006

Also checked for a crimped brake line or hose.

bpeebles · March 2006

You are suggesting that it is leaking out the top of the resivour to the point of being soo low that you lose pedal-pressure.... this sounds like a poor seal on the lid of the resivour to me. It is supposed to be a SEALED SYSTEM so moisture cannot get into it.

supadups · March 2006

Can incorrect alignment lead to brake damage? For example, if my car is veering off to the right a lot, can this cause added wear to the brake system (in particular the rear brakes). Please advise. thank you.

Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

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