Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

okko1 · October 2007

z germans are expensive

paisan · October 2007

I never turn brake rotors either, but at 36k the rotors would not be worn enough to replace them. Rotors generally last 60-80k miles, if the Benzes REQUIRE it, that is just dumb and a waste of $$$$.

-mike

ny540i6 · October 2007

I have 133K on my BMW. I've replaced at least 3 sets of rotors, with verification of minimum tolerances on 2 sets (skipped it on the third), so I am not sure where the statement that a minimum of 80K is the norm.

Mr_Shiftright · October 2007

Depends so much on the type of car...on higher performance cars, the engineers might sacrifice some rotor life for a more aggressive pad compound and better stopping.

0patience · October 2007

OEM warranty time is 1.8 hours to replace all 4 pads.
And we all know that warranty times are in favor of the manufacturer.
Standard flat rate is 2.4 hours.
The dealer I deal with sells the front pads over the counter at $162 and rears at $144. So, it will depend on the dealer you go to, which is why I said around $400 or more for the pads.

As for the time, I'd be willing to bet that the dealer will charge at least the 2.4 hours, adding time for bleeding, resurfacing or rotor replacement, hazardous waste fees and incidentals. Which should average out to the 3.5 hours.

paisan · October 2007

Yes rotor life will vary, 80k was an average for cars I've seen, obviously if you have a sports car, brakes aren't an issue, but I'm talking a generic person driving who doesn't pound the brakes hard should last 60-80k in general. I usually go about 50k on my cars and I'm running fairly agressive pads and doing about 2-3 HPDE events a year.

-mike

richardson · November 2007

Mr.Shiftright;
I believe you said you have an XA that requires brake fluid
flushing. I have an XB and the maintenance schedule says nothing about flushing, only inspections. How often does it say to flush? Thanks

bpeebles · November 2007

Brake fluid is hydroscopic. (It attracts water like a sponge until it is saturated.) Over time, as your brakefluid becomes more and more waterlogged, several bad things happen to your brake system.

1) The boiling point of your brake fluid goes down. You run risk of boiling the fluid during emergancy stop thus losing ALL brakes when you need them most. (air/steam in the brake fluid makes the brakes useless!)

2) The water tends to accumulate inside Brake calipers and expensive ABS components making them rust on the inside.

How do you prevent these bad things from happening? Replace your brakefluid every 2-3 years. Irreguardless of milage.

Mr_Shiftright · November 2007

I just do it on every car every 2 or 3 years or when it hits 36,000 miles, regardless of what the books says. I guess you could get away with it to 60K, but I think that's pushing it.

paisan · November 2007

And since I track my cars I generally do it 2x a year. ATE Superblue in the spring, and std. ATE Gold in the fall. By using the Superblue and alternating with Gold you actually know when it's all flushed cause the color changes on the caliper/discharge end when it's completely flushed!

-mike

ruking1 · November 2007

I read in passing there are brake fluid test strips and also sampling meters that can give almost instantaneous readings. I read the test strips are expensive, so it appears to make more sense to buy the more expensive upfront meter.

shipo · November 2007

Yeah, buy why even mess with strips or meters when it's waaaay cheaper to just alternate with ATE Blue and Gold.

Best Regards,
Shipo

paisan · November 2007

Not to mention that the fluid isn't homogeneous throughout your system. You could have moisture contamination near the caliper seals, but not up in the fluid resivoir.

-mike

ruking1 · November 2007

I don't know how it is in othr areas, but around here there are any number of sources to dispose of oil and anti freeze. I am sure shops that do brake bleeds will take your used fluid if you ask or they would charge you. The county is the only place that takes it (normal consumers) and you set up an appointment and go. Guy's fully dressed in haz mat suits take it from your trunk.

paisan · November 2007

Anyplace that sells brake fluid (pep boys, autozone, etc) will take up to a reasonable consumer amount of waste oil and brake fluid free of charge.

-mike

ruking1 · November 2007

Great! I will call in advance when I get my gal or so of BF waste (5 cars) . Another reason why I don't like to do it too much out of sequence.

bpeebles · November 2007

Here in Vermont (perhaps the most ecology-consience State in the country) we have "hazard waste depots" where we can take ANY household hazardous waste for disposal free of charge. (part-use paintcans, Aresol cans, used degreaser, batteries, paint thinner...etc )

Of-course, all of our garbage-dumps have separated tubs for all recyclables. There is a book printed up so we understand how to separate things.

The good thing about it is that all recycling is FREE of charge. The actual "garbage" our household generates is about 2 garbage bags a month! (about $2.75 each to dispose of)

jipster · December 2007

I've had my 99 Buick Regal LS for almost 4years now. Recently I've noticed the braking pressure to be "lighter" on slow speed stopping, while higher speed stopping it seems the same. On slower speed stopping I probably have to press the brakes down a bit further.

I checked the fluid level and it's about 1/4" to 1/2 inch down from where the stain mark is on resevior (from it's previous level) and about 3/4" an inch to an inch down from max... any thoughts? Thanks.

ruking1 · December 2007

Garbage is not big but HUGE business in CA!! It actually sounds like a novel idea to get rid of 2 garbage bags of stuff for 2.75 each!!! It is an absolute BARGAIN, once you see the following.

The "Municipality" as franchisor grants the "franchise" , but once granted, it is in effect a total monopoly and it HAS to include union labor. Cutting to the chase, you can NOT opt out of the Municipality's "solid waste" @ (currently) 26 per month. Well, technically you can!! They will technically condemn your house as unfit for human habitation, as you do not have so called "sanitation services". And we are scared of Guido with a baseball bat.

So basically your/my 2 garbage bags per mo cost 13 each or 4.73 x more!!!! Since we are on a brake thread, imagine a $300. dollar brake job costing $1,418. I am in the wrong business!!!

paisan · December 2007

Well you should flush the brake lines every 2 years as the fluid will absorb moisture and give you that squishy feel.

As your brake pads wear out the fluid level will drop proportionally. It may or may not be time for new pads, but that's why the fluid level is lower.

-mike

jipster · December 2007

Some goober awhile back wrote that flushing the brakes can mess up your abs brakes.

I thought about the brake pads wearing out causing the drop in fluid level, I'll have them checked out.

bolivar · December 2007

Wear on the pads will definitely cause a drop in the fluid level.

If the brake 'feel' is changing, getting harder or softer, I would guess the problem is in the vacumn booster system. Possibly the ABS, but DIY people usually don't know much about ABS stuff.

paisan · December 2007

Some goober awhile back wrote that flushing the brakes can mess up your abs brakes.

Actually on some early ABS systems you needed to bleed/flush the ABS units and it was tricky. This is what they may have been referring to.

-mike

bpeebles · December 2007

That goober may have been myself. Perhaps I did not explain well.

Bleeding the brakes CAN messs up the ABS system on some vehicles. (depends on ABS design) Before bleeding the brakes on YOUR specific vehicle, read the shop manual.

Some vehicles require PRESSURE bleeding, Some specify VACUUM bleeding, others are OK to use a buddy to press the brake pedal to bleed.

Some vehicles even requre you to hook up to a computer to "activiate" the ABS motors during brake bleeding. Otherwise, the ABS motors may not get the fluid in them flushed when you bleed at the wheels.

Dont take my word for it, READ the technical manual for several vehicle makes.... but I may still be a goober - LOL

imidazol97 · December 2007

I know that for certain GM cars it's recommended to never push the piston back in on brakes during a brake change without opening the bleeder screw to allow the displaced fluid to drain instead of pushing old fluid backwards through the ABS unit and parts toward the master cylinder. Old crud in the line can sometimes cause problems with the ABS unit later.

Sounds like good technique to me. It just means you do have to bleed the brakes even after a pad replacement because of the opened bleeder. Better than a $1500-2000 ABS unit.

jipster · December 2007

O.k, thanks all... you too goob.

I assume whoever I get to look at my brakes will know the proper procedure for having them bled/flushed. Really don't care to pay dealership prices on what sounds like should be a simple procedure.

I'll write back and report my findings when I get it diagnosed, hopefully sometime this week.

aldriver · December 2007

My brakes are usually fine in the morning then if I get into heavy traffic they become stiffer and stiffer. It will get to the point the front driver side will get to the point it will not release and must sit for a while to cool down. It is only the front driver side doing this. My mechanic replaced the brake line in there and it seemed to make some difference but the problem still remains.

Any help or ideas greatly appreciated.

bpeebles · December 2007

I have seen calipers which work fine when cold.... but after driving for awhile and they warm up... then the caliper starts to stick and keep the brake pads pinched against the rotor.

When I encounter a caliper which behaves like this, it is not worth trying to "fix" it... Just install a rebuilt caliper and send that bad one back to be refirbished.

paisan · December 2007

Yup, I'd say replace the caliper or rebuild the caliper, depending on if there is a rebuild kit available.

-mike

burdawg · December 2007

Have the pads been replaced recently? A sticking caliper is a possibility but not usually on such a new car.

wtd44 · December 2007

My observances over many years of repairing brakes seem to indicate that a sticky caliper is more often the problem when brakes drag, especially after the brakes are warmed up. The flexible hoses in the front brakes would be choice #2. On common (non exotic!) vehicles, I always opt for factory rebuilt calipers. The exchange price is cheap, compared to the effort and time consumed in a home garage rebuilding them.

jeffyscott · December 2007

My kid had to add nearly 16 oz of brake fluid to his car ('97 Jetta), am I correct in thinking this is a huge amount of brake fluid to have lost? The fluid was topped off about a month or so ago, added a very much smaller amount that time.

Had a minor leak in rear wheel cylinders noted a couple months ago. I'm thinking this must have gotten much worse based on the amount of fluid lost.

paisan · December 2007

Yeah, my guess would be a leak somewhere. That is a lot to lose in a month.

-mike

curtc2 · December 2007

This is about my Daughter's 2002 Audi A6 in Denver. The brakes failed... press pedal and no brakes... very scarey and unsafe. First, the brake fluid was replaced and fully bled. Brakes worked for a day, and then no brakes. New vaccum hose replaced and system seems to hold vacuum, but after cold soaking all night in Denver winter, brakes again do not work. It was towed to the shop and is being looked at now. What could be the problem?

kiawah · December 2007

I decipher what you wrote, that the sequence of events is:

- daughter had an episode where she lost her brakes
- took it to a shop, who didn't find anything wrong (ie. a leak somewhere), but replaced the brake fluid and properly bled the system.
- she drove for a day, and then had another episode where she lost her brakes
- took it back to the shop, and they replaced a vacuum hose
- lost the brakes for the third time.

If we assume that the first shop didn't find any leaking components at the wheels or hoses (they would have replaced some component), and also assume that there 'was' fluid in the car (they drained the old fluid and replaced/bled), then it sounds like your master cylinder needs replacing.

She should verify that she does have brake fluid up to the proper level in the master cylinder. If she doesn't, then that means there is a pretty substantial leak somewhere (loosing all of the fluid in a day), and any competent shop should be able to find the brake fluid dripping off the car. If there is brake fluid, then the master brake cylinder is suspect (since we already know that the brakes were properly bled and worked for a day).

Mr_Shiftright · December 2007

Did she "lose" the brakes as in pedal right to the floor, loose and floppy so that you could push the pedal to the floor with one finger, or did she find the pedal rock-hard, NOT to the floor, but the car just wouldn't stop.

These represent two REALLY different problems with two different solutions.

So you'll need to define exactly what happened.

isellhondas · December 2007

Yes, there is a leak somewhere and it's a bad leak if it took 16 oz of fluid!

You said there WAS a minor leak in the rear cylinders a couple of months ago? Were they replaced at that time?

If not, you now have a MAJOR leak! If the were replaced, it's leaking somewhere else.

Leaks don't get better when ignored and we are talking about your BRAKES and the ability to stop!

shipo · December 2007

A minor leak in a braking system? I don't know, maybe it's just me, however, I think that any leak, regardless of how small or slow, is a MAJOR leak. Yes, no?

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright · December 2007

Exactly. What I was driving at in my question was the one possibility that can occur when there is brake fluid loss but no leak to be seen---- brake fluid being sucked through a faulty power brake vacuum booster and burned off.

bpeebles · December 2007

I agree with you... ANY fluid loss in a brake system is a major problem. Once the master-cylinder sucks air..... game over!

I once had a guy tell me that brake fluid *evaporates* and it was normal to lose fluid.... let me tell you I did not consider selling the car he was selling!

jeffyscott · December 2007

Well, when mechanic reported the leaking rear wheel cylinders, he had called it minor. But he did say that could get suddenly worse, just when you need brakes.

The problem was found when he replaced rear bearings, but he did not call and say "hey your brakes are leaking, I think you should fix those...even if it means leaving the bearings for another time".

Anyway, I've been telling my kid that he needs to fix them now...that 16 oz is a huge loss. He is finally going to do it Thursday. His big issue was he did not want to take the bus to school for one day, while his car is worked on :sick: .

Mr_Shiftright · December 2007

Best thing you could do for him is let the air out of all four of his tires.

kmatalani · December 2007

Hi, I have a passat 2003 1.8. The sensor is telling me my pads need replacement. I am wundering if the sensor is on the pads or the callipers. In other words do I need special pads or any good pads will do?

Mr_Shiftright · December 2007

The sensor is on the caliper and should be replaced if they have lit up your warning light. Once you have the new sensor in place, you plug the wire into a special connection in the new brake pads. The pads have a special surface that completes a connection to your warning light. Once that special surface wears off, the circuit is broken and your warning light goes on. Some people don't replace the sensors but they lead a hard life and if they fail, you'll destroy your rotors as you have no warning system.

Here's a photo of the typical plug-in as it goes into the brake pad (but it doesn't show the sensor itself, which is usually a small cylinder device)

http://www.pelicanparts.com/bmw/techarticles/E36-Brake_Pads/pic3.jpg

0patience · December 2007

The problem was found when he replaced rear bearings, but he did not call and say "hey your brakes are leaking, I think you should fix those...even if it means leaving the bearings for another time".
So you are saying he had the brakes open to replace the wheel bearings and the wheel cylinders were leaking and PUT IT BACK TOGENTER?????

Who does this sort of thing? I'm sorry, but some folks may thinnk I go a bit over the top about doing things the RIGHT way, but this is a clear indication of laziness.

Anyway, I've been telling my kid that he needs to fix them now...that 16 oz is a huge loss. He is finally going to do it Thursday. His big issue was he did not want to take the bus to school for one day, while his car is worked on.
Ok, I am going to say something here you may not like, but here it goes.

Leaking brakes are an UNSAFE thing. It is your responsibility as a parent to NOT allow your "child" to drive something unsafe, no matter what they think.
Take the keys away and tell them they are not driving it until it is fixed. Plain and simple. Let him scream and yell. Take a stance.

Ok, I'll go back to my corner now.

isellhondas · December 2007

I was thinking the exact same thing.

WHY wouldn't someone have replaced or at least overhauled those wheel cylinders when it was already apart??

Oh, I guess nobody rebuilds wheel cylinders anymore. I know I have honed out and rebuilt dozens of them and never a problem.

Maybe at today's labor rates it doesn't make sense?

bpeebles · December 2007

Contrary to what somone else said above... the sensor on VW is is built into the drivers-front inside-brakepad. (NOT part of the caliper) It is simply a short loop of wire that is imbedded into the pad and will get sliced when the pad wears too thin. Once this wire is cut.... the light on the dashbaord comes on.

It is best to replace with pads that have the built-in sensor. When you go to the autoparts store they will ASK you if you need the pads with the sensor or not.

It is possible to install pads WITHOUT the sensor-wire .... but you need to bypass the sensor circuit if you do this. (otherwise the light on the dashboard will stay on forever.)

Mr_Shiftright · December 2007

Yes the sensor clips onto the caliper and the other part of the wire goes into the pads. It's "part of" the caliper in the sense that it is attached to it. I don't know location for each and every car but that's the general idea.

you can see it here:

http://www.thepartsbin.com/sitemap/volkswagen~brake_pad_sensor~parts.html

earnhart · December 2007

I have a 2006 Honda Odessey and not too long after purchasing this vehicle (I bought it new) there began to be a very loud grinding when brakes were applied. Not all the time and it didn't matter if brakes were applied hard or light or if it was cold or hot or going up hill or down or on level ground. When I took the car to Honda they said that this happens in some Odesseys but not all and that they were well aware of the problem and would replace the pads (asbestos) only once for free and that was all they could do for me. It didn't help until I contacted the Better Business Bureau and then (for free) they again resurfaced my rotors and replaced the pads and now when they bled my brake lines they found air! (This car has under twenty thousand miles!). Soft brakes and pulling to left too. All is well for now but now I don't trust this car and curse the day I bought a Honda Odessey.

jeffyscott · December 2007

You're a little late with that advice, since school is out now

. Let me note that the "child" is 18. That is not to say that we don't still have control, since he lives here. He did call after 2-3 days of denial that this was a problem. At the point in time when the large fluid loss was found there were 5 days of school before the break. His "commute" is 3 miles at low speeds.

So you are saying he had the brakes open to replace the wheel bearings and the wheel cylinders were leaking and PUT IT BACK TOGENTER?????

Yes, we picked the car up and there was a note on the bill "wheel cylinder leaking".

Anyway, here is another thing that I thought was odd. My kid checked the fluid right when the brake light came on. I thought he must have lost a lot of fluid very suddenly to have the light just come and then find it 16 oz low. I had always thought that the brake light came on when only a tiny amount of fluid was needed...like a couple ounces. I really expected that he would step on the brakes once and lose most of the fluid again...but that has not happened.

Is it unusual to have the light not come on until the fluid is nearly 16 oz. low?

Stop here! Let's talk about brakes

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