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The next gen Escape is rumored to be derived from the Mazda 6.
The incentives on the F-150 are not the straight-up rebates we've seen with other vehicles. There's a $500 loyalty rebate and special financing deals. This article mentions only one of the finance options. Another (which I cannot find at the moment) listed lower rates pending the length of the loan.
I find this particularly odd, given that Ford is still going to produce the old F-150 to serve as a value option for those who cannot afford the more expensive new model. And I agree that it looks like they did a great job with the new design. All the more reason why those incentives should be unnecessary.
Mind you, none of these incentives are as insane as this one from Chrysler.
On the issue of sales. This issue goes wayyyy back. Scape2 stated that the CR-V could never outsell the Escape. His reasoning was that the Escape's V6 was such a huge advantage the 4 cylinder Honda could not take the lead in the American market. "American's demand V6 engines", was his theory. The very next day, sales for the month showed the CR-V ahead of the Escape. Since that time, sales have been used in this thread as something of an indicator for how popular or desirable a vehicle might be. As someone posted earlier, the market votes with their wallet. The issues I brought up show that truism isn't as valid as it might seem. I'll keep the "voting" analogy going as I explain them.
For example, there's the fleet sales issue. With Ford selling Escapes to rental fleets owned by Ford, can we really count those sales as votes in a popularity contest? I wouldn't. In this case, Ford literally bought those votes.
Incentives for the Escape were nonexistent or limited to $500 through most of the 2002 calendar year. A while back, those incentives were boosted to $1,500. Last month, Ford raised them to $2,000. This was done to clear out inventories of the 2003 models and make way for 2004 design. Ford is paying the dealerships and customers to lower the price of the vehicle. In essence, Ford is paying the voters. They're offering bribes to get people to buy the Escape.
With four times as many dealerships as Honda, Ford has an advantage similar to the elected official who has four TV and radio commercials for every one done by their opponent.
In each case, these advantages have little to do with the popularity or desirability of the Escape. They are market realities that give the Escape an advantage. It's like having a foot race where one runner must jump hurdles and the other does not. So, the remarkable thing about these sales figures is not the fact that the Escape sells more units than the CR-V. The remarkable part is that the Escape should be selling far more, yet it doesn't.
My remarks on in-house competition were in reference to Scape's comparison of 2002 sales versus 2003 sales (the CR-V dropped). In 2002, the CR-V was Honda's only SUV. For 2003, the CR-V was joined by the Pilot and Element. Last year, the CR-V had an advantage. This year, that is no longer true. To think of this year's numbers as poor is really a mistake. It's just that last year's numbers were abnormally high.
Well, it's not nearly as bit as the mid-sized SUV, full-sized truck, mid-sized car, etc. markets. It doesn't even come close really.
The Pilot is on waiting lists because production is so low. Plain and simple. Honda is producing too many vehicles off of the same platform and can't keep up.
The Titan will most likely not have incentives because Nissan, as I read elsewhere, does not want to offer them on any vehicle. They want to 'weather the storm alone" so to speak. I think they'll have a hard time selling any of those beasts without some incentives though.
"All the more reason why those incentives should be unnecessary."
You have to remember Joe contractor who needs a pickup for his small business. He's not going to look at price first if he's not loyal to one brand to begin with. Especially when the choices are so similar.
Ford is expecting to sell about one million F-Series' within the next year. They're not going to hesitate to offer incentives if they see people are turned off by the price.
A lower price is a _good_ thing. It is better to spend less on a product, not more. Don't try to turn value pricing into a bad thing.
I wish all companies would "bribe" me with lower prices...
From my earlier post:
"...sales have been used in this thread as something of an indicator for how popular or desirable a vehicle might be. As someone posted earlier, the market votes with their wallet. The issues I brought up show that truism isn't as valid as it might seem. I'll keep the "voting" analogy going as I explain them."
And if you reread the entire post, you should find that I'm speaking about a sales comparison, not the value to the consumer. Incentives are one of the things that make the comparison apples to oranges. In short, if Ford were not offering incentives on the Escape, sales would not be as high as they are.
Is that so? So are you the one who tells the good folks at 'The Farmer's Almanac' what the weather will be like in the future too?
If Ford sales in such a huge decline then why do they sell 4 out of the 10 best sellers here in the U.S.? Honda has 2? After all these years? Why does Honda only have 2 models that have made any sort of gain? (According to Motor Trend)? Once again, you keep saying the ONLY reason why Ford sells any vehicles is because of incentives?
Waiting lists?? for Pilots? here we go again.. Give me your e-mail address I can give you dealerships in my area that have plenty of Pilots, CRV's, you name it.. This is spreading garbage about lack of vehicles in Honda showrooms. Either Honda doesn't know how to distribute its inventory or they need to hire a new inventory control department for the U.S. Plenty of Honda's here in the Northwest folks..
If it helps, neither do I. I've exlpained this to you before, but I'll do it again.
Edmunds did not share their selection criteria with us. I suspect that they simply could not find un-biased posters, so they grabbed a variety of individuals. I'm the Honda guy, Juice is the Soobie fan, Paisan is an Isuzu dude, and so on... That's my best guess. There were others who were asked to particpate, but they apparently elected not to.
"Why isn't the CRV problem board in the SUV room along with all the other make and models of SUV's and thier problem boards?"
I think Steve already answered that. There are many vehicles with "owners club forums". Each has threads specific to that sub-forum. Most include a thread for "Problems and Solutions", a "How much did you pay", "Accessories and Modifications", and others along those lines. You'll find the same applies to several Subarus, Mazdas, BMWs, and other makes. If you want to read these threads, they are open to anyone.
Because you're only looking at one month. There are other months, you know.
"Once again, you keep saying the ONLY reason why Ford sells any vehicles is because of incentives?"
Nah. I listed several reasons. Incentives just happens to be the one that makes you twitch.
Obviously, there are many Ford models that are selling well. Ford is utterly dominant in big trucks and even owns the bulk of the compact pickup segment. But this incentives discussion is focused on a comparison between the CR-V and Escape. Sales of the Escape are boosted by incentives, while CR-V sales are not.
"Did you read the entire Forbs article?"
Yep. I've also read that one tenth of a percentage point is worth about a billion dollars. BTW, most recent reports show Honda with an 8.2% share, but I posted the older Forbes article because it spells things out in more detail with data for all brands.
http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/030908/0025000018_1.html
See! I can post positive stuff about the domestics!
(I forgot to type this the last time around) The "old" F-150 they are continuing to produce is the V6 model only. They won't be producing the new one with a V6 until they catch up with demand of the V8's. They predict this will be sometime in the spring of next year.
In a way it is being produced for those who can't afford the new one. Only if they can't afford the V8 that is. I haven't seen anything about which V6 they will use though. Maybe the new 3.5?
Also, with the old model offering a 6cylinder and manual transmission, I wonder if some of the reason for offering the truck is to help Ford comply with CAFE standards? The best new F150 gets 15/19mpgs (on EPA sticker), vs the old F150 gets a 17/20 on its EPA sticker.
What an appropriate name for Ford's rental company, Hertz. That's exactly what dumping Escapes into rental fleets does to your resale.
We took quite a few rocky, steep, rough trails (for either of these vehicles). The Cumberland pass, Forest route 267 to Mirror Lake and Forest Service Road 839 to the Alpine Tunnel. The CR-V did a great job and I can't say I wished for 201 HP or the added expense of lower MPG.
We encountered major mountain passes such as Monarch and climbed 5, 6 and 7 degree inclines as we drove from Gunnison to Boulder. I didn't have any problem keeping up with vehicles on these roads and never felt as though I was lacking power. Heck, there were people in Civics, Focuses and other small cars with small engines doing just fine too. I was very happy to have an auto tranny that intuitively helps with engine braking.
I did notice it would be a hard place to own a Honda though, as there weren't any dealers outside of major metropolitan areas. (But Ford did have a large presence.) Notable vehicle sightings - Lots of Subies, 1 Avalanche (Michigan plates), 1 Aztek (every where here), not as many Libertys as I expected (here they're on every corner), 2 Pacificas (again, here you can expect to see one every 5 miles.) My observations only strengthened my belief that employee incentives sell a lot of vehicles for the big3.
I didn't really take note of Escapes. I find them difficult to pick out from the crowd and didn't spend much time trying.
You would notice my Escape. It has painted body molding. Something that would stand out on a CR-V, I am sure, if it were offered.
BTW, I know the SE had it. I owned one.
ICVCI: I find your comment a bit divisive. The reviewer simply doesn't notice Escapes, about what one would expect from a CR-V owner. BTW, did you opt for side impact air bags on your Escape? How about ABS and EBD? My CR-V EX has all three, standard. (I mention these as an example: I would be less than fair unless I also mention that side airbags are optional on the LX and ABS/EBD aren't even offered on the lower trim level).
Actually, I think the title of this thread causes friction. It isn't so much one vehicle VS another, for these are very different SUVs, each with it's own advantages and disadvatanges.
Being petty (from either the CR-V or Escape side) simply makes it more difficult for people wanting comparisons to get past the people and decide which vehicle is best for THEM. It's sometimes amusing, but not often helpful to those seeking information.
Escapes are hard to pick out in a crowd, yet you can pick out the Civics. Interesting.
There are a lot more Civics on the road than there are Escapes. Not so interesting. And, the Escape from the rear is almost a spitting image of a Grand Cherokee.
They couldn't have been that rocky, steep, or rough if Civic's, Focus's and other small CAR's were able to traverse these ROUGH roads. You know the little speed BUMPS that they put along National Park Roadways to slow traffic down DON'T count as Off-roading or even rough roads.
Also Confusing the Rear of an Escape with the Rear of the Gr. Cherokee would be like confusing the Penn State Nittany Lion for the Detroit Lion symbol.
Odie
I admit it. I never go offroad and don't really see myself doing so. I worry more about scrathes in the parking garage.
ICVCI: You lost me. I thought the fewer of something in a crowd, the easier it was to pick out from the crowd, no?
BTW, I am with you on the amusing stuff. If someone needs info, I think people address it, but in the interim, the amusing stuff is, well, amusing.
The fact is, any comparison thread is going to run out of truly useful information rather quickly. Internet enthusiasts are pretty good at finding information nowadays, and the significant points are ground to a pulp within the first few weeks. After that, the only left to do is bicker about details.
When someone comes to these threads and actually posts, "Hey, I'm giving these two vehicles some serious consideration", the group tends to get in line, answer specific questions, and provide something useful. Other than that, this is simply entertainment for those who like to debate.
Drive by wire -- something that Ford hasn't figured out yet. Drive by wire eliminates throttle cable where the pedal inputs are related to the on board computer and then to the servo operating the throttle. This is a must for vehicles with traction control, where the driver's inputs are to be over-ridden by the computer. Luckily CR-V has the VSC-off button that completley turns it off, unlike BMW's where it is just less sensitive.
The poeple who complain about CR-V MPG's would get even worse numbers with the V6 Escape. This is all due to their driving habits. You can not compare "slow as mollasses" Escape driver getting 22 mpg highway to a "jackrabbit starts" driver in the CR-V doing City driving.
CR-V can tow a Jetski or a snowmobil, or anything else up to 1500 lbs. The 1500 lbs is the brake limited not engine limited. UK Honda lists 2000 lbs towing limit with trailer brakes.
I have driven with 5 large adults and CR-V can still kick Escape's butt (same load) from light to light dash.
Escape is just as a big station wagon as CR-V, it just took Ford 5 years to figure out how to copy Honda and Toyota to offer a small SUV.
I have not driven this CR-V in the snow, but I have driven Gen 1 (2001 CR-V) in the snow. As a matter of fact, "the other site" organizes off roading trips and CR-V is quite capable on the trail. It is no Jeep, but I have not seen one Escape on that trail. There were Jeeps, Broncos, and CR-V's. So be true to your self, if you never take your Escape off the paved road, then you should have gotten a station wagon. As far as I remember, the last Chevy Caprice/Buick roadmaster station wagons came with a V8 and were capable of towing.
As far as the V6 dillemma goes, some people have to compensate their physical inadeqaucies with a large engine. Sorry, can't help you there. Honda sells much more I4 powered Accords than V6 powered ones. V6 are only offered in the US, the rest of the world seems to be happy with the I4 Accords. Once we start getting taxed on the displacement and gas prices rise to the rest of the world levels, maybe people will get off their high chair/soap box and realize that a well designed and quality built 4 cylinder engine will work 90% of the time. It is not like you tow your boat every day, you are lugging around all that heft and extra 2 cylinders 5 days a week to use it once or twice a month to take your boat to the lake. It would have made a much wiser financial decision to buy a smaller, more fuel efficient vehicle for commuting and maybe a used truck to tow.
The I4 in the CR-V is much more capable than people think. Just the fact that we are comparing the V6 Escape to I4 CR-V and not the I4 Escape tells you something.
Since it evens out brakeforce front and rear, I assume it pays dividends in brake wear. Correct?
My understanding of EBD is that it only affects braking when ABS is engaged (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Unless you frequently lock-up your brakes during normal driving, it would not affect brake wear.
It does use the sensors from the ABS (probably why I've never heard of it apart from ABS).
I saw the Civics and Fungus "...as we drove from Gunnison to Boulder..."
The rocky roads that I mentioned were quite different from the paved ones.
Here's a site that has reviewed the roads I mention. Tincup Pass, Alpine Tunnel Road and Cumberland Pass Trail. We never needed the AWD capability of our CR-V but, we did need the additional clearance. Cumberland was easy, a car probably would have made it. Mirror Lake was easy but, too rough and rocky for a car. Alpine Tunnel was quite steep and we even bottomed out once. (I was going too fast @ 10 mph.) It took one hour to go the ten miles to the Alpine Tunnel. The 4x4 Dodge Ram (Colorado native driving) in front of me turned around.
http://www.salida.com/html/4wheeling.htm
No answer from Steve as to why the CRV problem room is not in this topic along side of all the other brands of SUV's??
Actually, there is already a CR-V Owners: Problems & Solutions discussion in the Honda Owners Clubs.
Whoever feels a need for one here in SUVs raise your hand!
tidester, host
If you don't stop with the conspiracy theories, I'm going to start posting links about how worthless swirly tornado thingys are ;-)
Steve, Host
You just described my 96 Civic to a "T"! No leaks yet though. I'll bet it didn't cost $400 to fix your Ford window either did it?
And yet the world still turns.
Yeah, I drove from Michigan to Colorado and back, with 10 days between. A 6 month old child and a wife as passengers and I didn't have my vehicle loaded down with junk. Maybe in bizzaro world.
The following is from a different thread
My 6 month old daughter sat in her rear facing car seat behind the driver and my wife could go between back and front seats without a problem. We fit a very large suit case, johnny jump up, collapsible walker, backpack camera case, 2 paper shopping bags filled with "stuff", Graco Metro lite stroller, booster seat/highchair thingy, pack and play and various other blankets, pillows, shoes and magazines in the back (behind the rear seats) with the rear seats pushed all the way back and nothing higher than the rear head rests.
I never said the CR-V would pull like the Escape. The CR-V can't tow. Did I say it could? I said it would keep up (and, in fact, did keep up) with every vehicle on the mountainous roads we encountered.
For suburban driving which, is what we bought our CR-V for, it performs just as well as it's V6 counter part. And better so at the pump.
If anyone is doing anything with magic dust, it's Ford. Something must be in the HVAC vents that makes their owners ignore the quality, reliability and dependability studies by J.D. Power, CR, Autopacific, and MANY others. Not to mention the consumer rags that sing the praises of the V. PLUS countless testimonials of those who have been burned and continue to be burned by Ford products. Last time I checked we don't have anyone on the CR-V board posting horror stories about their vehicle and how they'll never buy another Honda.
How ya like them apples?
With GM's Equinox on the horizon, it, the Escape and Liberty will compete for the same crowd. While the CR-V will be alone, as a practical, well built, safe, compact SUV for the rest of us.
Enjoy your sales lead, it won't last long.
4WD EX | Starting at $21,600.00
The pinnacle of luxury and convenience for the CR-V line, the EX adds to the 4WD LX with front side airbags, an anti-lock braking system (ABS) with Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD), remote entry system, power moonroof with tilt feature, AM/FM/cassette/CD audio system with 6-disc in-dash changer and 6 speakers, 15"alloy wheels, body-colored mirrors and rear privacy glass.
Only on the EX, though
The expression a needle in a haystack comes to mind. Fewer doesn't stand out unless there is something to draw attention to it. In the case of cars, if there are more of them on the road, you'll see more of them everyday.
I really like the CR-V. I also really like the Tribute. Here's what I'm thinking...
My decision may come down to whether I can find a Tribute configured how I want. The CR-V EX comes with ABS/EBD, side airbags, and premium sound standard - so all I have to do is find a silver EX and I'm done.
My preferred Tribute is the LX-V6 AWD. Side airbags, ABS/EBD, and premium sound are all options and I'm unable to find a Tribute LX-V6 so equipped in local dealer inventories. There is the ES-V6, which comes standard with ABS/EBD and side airbags (premium sound is still an option) - but it comes with leather seats, which I do not want to deal with in Arizona heat after a long sweaty hike.
So a properly equipped CR-V is easy to find, but there is a slight chance I could find a properly equipped Tribute, spend an extra grand, and get much better power, sportier handling, bigger and better tires and wheels, and a lockable 4WD system.
A cool new option on the 2004 Tribute is an auto dimming rearview mirror with Homelink, which you can program to work as your garage door opener and gate opener. I hate clutter, so I love Homelink because it gets rid of the remote(s).
I think you should go with the ES-V6 if you select the Tribute - buy a couple of sheepskin covers if you don't like the leather.
The big question is which vehicle do you like best - driving, gas mileage, towing, comfort. Drive both and then buy the one you think fits YOU. Each car has it's benefits and drawbacks. I suggest you draw up a parallel list with the names of the cars in each column, then list the attributes of each - power, towing, MPG, "Fun", Styling, braking, reliability, etc. Select one car or the other for each factor. This will tell you which car fits your needs best. Then go drive each and confirm your decision.
The Honda service department said if Honda installed it they would have to warrant it for the life of the basic warranty, and that the dealers cannot install non OEM products.
Ironically enough, this exact mirror is OEM on the Saturn VUE (I noticed it when I test drove one in my shopping process last month).
I'm assuming you mean "percent inclines" right? They don't typically mark the roads around here unless they are greater than 10%. Anything less is just a trip to the market.
I noticed one such sign on Sunday while driving back from a trip to Home Depot and Lowes. The sign was there to warn trucks that they would be travelling on a 12% grade for the next mile. It's a short hill but it has several curves to make it a little more interesting. However, it's still nothing compared to some of the others I drive on every single day.
Here's what one publication had to say about part of our trip.
MONARCH PASS elev. 11312'
(on US 50 west of Salida, CO)
The summit of Monarch Pass is about 22 miles west of Salida and about 17 miles west of Poncha Springs, Colorado. The westbound descent from the summit begins with a truck warning sign that says--"6% grade next 9 miles." The Colorado Dept. of Highways lists it at 6.4%. The grade is fairly steady and there are numerous 30, 35, and 45 mph curves during the first 6 miles of the descent. After the 9 miles of 6% grade there are several miles of lesser grade. The town of Sargents, Colorado is about 10 miles west of the summit and there is another 3 miles of downhill after Sargents although the grade is not as steep. There are no escape ramps going west.
Bottom line is this, I kept up with traffic with absolutely no problems. The CR-V was more than adequate when I wanted to pass. And, I didn't have to shell out extra money for power I didn't miss.
Try starting from a stop light or stop sign in the middle of a hill that is steeper than those you travelled. Or try going up that same steep hill at normal neighborhood speeds of 25 mph.
There's a hill about three blocks from my house which I drive up and down nearly every day that our Civic can't climb unless I'm doing about 40 mph in second gear. Otherwise it loses momentum. If you try to take the hill going 25 in second gear you'll be shifting back to first very soon. I vowed not to have to deal with a vehicle like that again.
On a side note, I had a similar experience when test driving a Mazda 6i 5-speed (I4 similar to the CR-V's I4). But I was taking it easy due to the fact that I was not familiar with the area. The 6s auto I drove did just fine. I'm still going to look at the 3 (and now the S40) before I jump on a 6 though.
Another thing, other than the Acura, there is no other engine similar to the CR-V. Comparing it to a Mazda simply displays an ignorance of the CR-V.
I have no doubt you are an authority on the Escape. However, I think it wise for any car owner (including myself) to comment only on HIS/HER car, not one they don't own. Please. Tell us what you like about your Escape, and let others tell us what they like about their CR-V.