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Comments
You said three transmissions replaced, now you are saying 4 transmissions replaced, which is it? I don't want to put words in your mouth!
You shoot the messenger (Ody owner) everytime they point out something they don"t like (problems) and back (defend) Honda. Give it a break. People come here to find help not shift the blame to them. The only thing they are guilty of is giving Honda alot of money and now they are sorry and want help.
But that's not the record:
pat84, "Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans" #2703, 2 Jun 2004 12:27 pm
Steve, Host
Now, having the originals go out prematurely is a different story, and one reason I will probably get the ESC for our '05.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
LOOK at all the money you saved on maintance!:)
Regarding suggestions about us using our van as a beast of burden... it does not tow anything, it is driven only by responsible adults who will occassionally haul people in the passenger seats and sometimes a couple of 2x4s from Home Depot.
Regarding why look at an '05 Honda... I am trying to give Honda a chance to make this right. I don't think I can expect them to purchase back my '00 Ody at retail and then give me a Sienna (or whatever) at invoice. I'm going to get nothing from Honda if I'm not at least somewhat loyal. If I get nothing from Honda, I have no reason to be loyal.
Regarding the transmission replacements... we had the first one done after 2 weeks, the second one after 1 year (probably 20k miles), and this last one after 79k miles. Until this last one, they have all been new transmissions.
Like you said, I wouldn't buy a Chrysler hubcap now much less a Chrysler vehicle. And after my problems with Chevy, I am looking at the Honda Ody to get away from American trash.
My point is that every car maker has problems and a case can be made for any model.But overall I beleive that when the Ody gets though its initial problems, it will be a fine vehicle, and that's when I may buy one.
isell provided one *possible* scenario which everyone jumps on which you can refute, and noone can realistically doubt - but really - a rational person can think in broader terms and imagine there are a few other possibilities to enumerate, and i won't try to be exhaustive: (like the transmission wasn't actually replaced when they said / documented it was, the vehicle has some control or mechanical issue causing repeated premature failures (?), the replacement transmissions were of inferior quality (where may i ask were they comming from - do you know?), the mechanic(s) didn't know how to properly replace them...) etc.
I would think Honda corporate would be very interested in such a high repeat failure rate. i guess if it were me, i'd have brought the thing to another dealership at tranny #3, and verify what got replaced (in an independant manner).
seems like you should have some leverage from the standpoint someone can research the work done at the dealership on your VIN, and something just isn't right, affecting the resale value of your vehicle.
I have no explantion as to why you would have gone through transmissions like that. I would bring copies of all of your receipts and sit down with the General Manager of that dealership.
Hopefully you can come to some kind of an arrangement that makes you happy.
From what I have read, the 4 spd in the early Odys is not that dissimilar from the Accord. It held up well in the Accord, but suffered in the Ody. Exclusive use of a V6 (as opposed to mostly 4 cyl Accords - 1.5x the torque), 1k lbs heavier base vehicle with room for more passengers and cargo, resulting in as much as a 2000 lb GVW increase, larger diameter wheels to turn.... How well can you expect rebuilds of the same unit to stand up? If the original fails at under 60k, will a rebuilt replacement make it to 100k? Maybe....
Fast forward to 2002. A new 5 spd unit to go with the higher output engine, for use in larger Honda/Acura models. Might have been a great success story if it had not been for a design error - insufficient fluid routing for cooling/lube of 2nd gear. Disappointing, but it shows that even Asian engineers make mistakes. Hopefully now they got it right. Mine was replaced this past summer at 35k miles. Well cooked....
I never lost a tranny on a rear drive vehicle. But my luck with FWD hasn't been all that good, and I consider myself a mechanically knowledgeable, and thoughtful driver. Lost the final drive section bearings on my '90 Camry V6 at 60k miles (not that uncommon - again mostly V6's suffered this problem), my '97 Grand Caravan was starting to wine when I sold it at 45k miles. My '00 Windstar spent 5 weeks in the shop at under 10k miles. They first tried to rebuild it themselves, then gave up after roadtesting it and ordered a new one. All were puchased new, just me and my wife driving them. No, I don't like it, but I am becoming resigned to it. Either lease and be done with the vehicle before the warranty runs out, or buy it and an extended warranty to cover the probability of failure.
Steve
I remember, I was there.
You are right to be concerned with the resale value of your Ody. I think that Honda should just "give" you a new Ody for all of the time and effort on your part dealing with this issue. What "joy" of ownership have you had with the Ody? Why should you lose your hard earned money?
Ask for a 200k warranty on the transmission and all of the doughnuts you can eat while waiting for your transmissions to be replaced. Honda might just decide that it would be cheaper for them to just give you that "new" Ody! :-)
Bottom line: RWD and FWD co-exist. Have for a very long time. RWD packaging provides more room for robust internals, and does not have to share space with a differential section. I am not defending Honda (or Ford, Chryco or Toyota, for that matter). Just pointing out that FWD, overall, is going to be more problematic, and when it goes, more expensive both from the standpoint of the unit cost, and 3-5x for the R&R labor.
Steve
A one year only disaster
My point was back in the sixties, when everything except Eldorados and Toronados and maybe some oddball foreign car was RWD,the "robust" automatics didn't last nearly as long as today's FWD cars do.
Today, people get furious when their transmission fails at 125,000 miles.
I guess cars are getting better!
Yes, reliability and longevity is certainly better today in all automotive sectors than we grew up with, but there is room for improvement. I think Honda has taken some well deserved dings for taking what worked well in their small car platforms and trying to make big vehicles for the American market without proper modification & testing. I think Toyota may be doing a better job in this area by moving up more slowly and cautiously. I don't think I will be first in line for that hunk of a pickup truck that Honda showed last week at the auto show.
Steve
Honda Ody 240 hp!!!!! Don't make me laugh! Who drives an Ody like we did our cars back in the 60's? This vehicle has a bad designed transmission, period!
I don't know, either, but if this kind of issue happened regularly it would show up in reliability ratings, which are just big, styatistical analyses of customer feedback. It doesn't. There seems to be some problems with some older Ody transmissions that are more than one would expect for a Honda, but are not enough to bring ratings down. In other words, buying another Honda could mean there are no problems, and statistically problem does mean there will be far fewer problems, than this particular van.
Back in the sixties a car didn't have to ba a muscle car to wear out a transmission. A Powerglide mated to a 283 was good for MAYBE 60,000 before the clutches would wear out causing it to slip between first and second. Other transmissions were even worse.
People accepted this as "normal" at the time because it was.
BTW, the failure rate for Oduyssey transmissions has been stated as 2%. That's way too high in my opinion and not normal from what we ecxpect from Honda. Still, it is far from a "bad designed" transmission.
I haven't been lucky enough to see Honda's repair records for the Ody transmission 2% failure, Have you? I thought company repair records were confidential!
I guess I should believe everything that Honda says. Naw, I might buy a Ody and spend time getting to know the service manager. Uh, doughnuts anyone!
Not allowing enough transmission fluid to flow to the second gear is "a bad design" in any book.
Nice try.
As I'm sure you know, Honda has recalled these to have an oil jet kit installed. At the same time, they look through the hole to detect wear or heat discoloration on the gear that's affected.
Our store is the highest volume in the state and, as such, we have literly inspected hundreds of these and installed the oil jet kits.
Well, I asked and we have found exactly ***ONE***
that was questionable. Imagine that!
And that one was on a ragged out Odyssey with a Class 3 trailer hitch on it and it had 88,000 miles!
Two out of three technicians that looked at it thought it was fine but the third guy thought there might be a bit of heat discoloration.
The photos were downloaded to Honda who without question authorized a replacement transmission.
I doubt you would believe me, as sarcastic as you are but that is the absoulte truth.
Oh, and at least in Southern California we had lots of freeways in the 60's. We just didn't call them expressways.
I also lived in San Diego in the 60's and La Jolla was the 'burbs, like out in the boonies. Now, is it the same today or do people live way out side the city limits, like 2 hours in some cases.
Freeways,Expressways or is it Highways? You say tomato I say....
Sarcastic, Me! I just calls them as I sees them.
a ragged out Ody with a 3 Class hitch! Oh, brother!!!!
Have fun!
Man, you sure know a lot about cars.......
Just for the record, while some may call me foolish, I am still a fan of Honda's because at this point, Honda has stood behind their product. No company is going to have perfect products and I just happened to draw the short straw on this car. As long as they make this situation right, I have no problem staying loyal to Honda. As long as they prove to me that the customer should not unduly bear the cost of their failure rate, I will be fine.
I am knowledgeable enough to know when a vehicle has a "design" flawed transmission.
Please tell us how great the Ody is, after all the title of this board is Ody Problems & Solutions!
Craig, your comment about 1 failure at your dealership does strike me as strange, but terrain, temps, and road conditions can have a big influence on this. Mine whined like a banchee at 35k. I was aware of a growing problem for a good 1-2k miles. I waited a bit until it was unmistakeable for a reason - I didn't want a 'patch' that would keep it alive for a year or two, then die on my dime. But my dealer was not that surprised, saying that while most under 25 - 30k or so could be saved with the rejetting, my situation was not all that atypical. I already had a few rounded and chipped teeth, and they said that they had already changed out a few like it. Now considering that they are required to take digital photos of the metal bluing and physical damage and upload them for pre-approval, I don't think that they are making this stuff up.
Yes, this is called "problems and solutions". You only hear of the worst stuff on this forum. Not a peep from the thousands of very happy owners with zero problems. Frankly, I am glad we have this group. I still am very happy with my van, despite the failure. Friendly Honda House in Pok, NY took excellent care of me. The inconvenience factor was almost zero. Same type of experience with Colonial Ford when it happed a few years ago on the Windstar. If the dealer does his job properly, then we need to get over it and move on. I would buy another one, and just encouraged my sister who was looking at a Highlander to lease a Pilot.
If we didn't have failures, we wouldn't need Failure Analysts. Then what the heck would the people in my lab at work do for a living???
Steve
If you and "toy4me1" are not the same person (don't laugh, individuals have been known to have multiple screen names, despite it being against Townhall rules), then I certainly apologize.
As far as being mistaken, again, I will be the first to acknowledge when I've made a mistake, as I have made several. However, unless you care to point out the other instance in which I was mistaken, it is difficult for me to respond.
Now, as far as whether or not you are knowledgeable enough to know when a vehicle has a "design" flawed transmission, I'll accept that you could be that knowledgeable. Tell me, how many Honda transmissions have you torn down and diagnosed as to the cause of failure? How many of those transmissions failed due to owner abuse, how many failed due to improper assembly, how many failed due to a material failure, and how many failed due to a design flaw? Have you had your results certified by anyone with American Honda?
Or, do you simply "know" a lot about cars, in general, and feel like you know "enough" to espouse an opinion. Tell me, if these transmissions have a "design" flaw then, by design, wouldn't this flaw be in ALL the transmissions? And if this flaw was in ALL the transmissions, wouldn't the failure rate be significantly higher?
Yes, this board IS the Honda Odyssey Owners: Problems and Solutions. And, as an Odyssey owner, I will check it from time to time to see if other Odyssey owners have any problems. Personally, our vehicle was exhibiting a driver side slider door which would not properly open with the remote or the door switch. It took one trip to the dealer for an adjustment and the door has worked perfectly ever since. If this problem recurs, I'll be sure to check here for a solution.
And, since you pointed out, this is the Odyssey Owners: Problems and Solutions Board; I'm curious. Do you have any problems or solutions you would like to discuss?
Out of curosity, I went into our shop yesterday and I asked them how many inspections showed the need for a replacement transmission. The number remains at one. That is after a LOT of inspections. We have a new tech who came from another Honda dealership and he said they had replaced ONE also.
It's funny...here Honda has stepped up to the plate in an attempt to do right by theri customers and a few people try to turn this into something ugly.
A design flaw is what Honda is trying to fix by the "Fix", allowing "more" transmission fluid to circulate around the second gear. The transmission wasn't designed this way out of the box, Honda had to come up with a fix, hence it is a bad design.
Since you ask if I had any problems & solutions that I would like to discuss....How about trying to help an Ody owner when they come to this site with a problem. I mentioned in my post 3951 to set up a conference call with the dealer/honda to find a solution. In the business world that is how things get done, it's called "communication" and it works.
I have no dog in this fight, I just believe that 4 transmissions in 79k is something out of the ordinary and Honda should find out what's wrong in this situation.
Remember, the person that is having this concern over resale value is the person that is paying for this Ody. It is easy to dismiss his problem since it is not our money.
I was just trying to help out that Ody owner, sorry if you thought different.
Still, it was a voluntary recall. So I think Honda, if not necessarily all its affiliated dealerships, would try to do the right thing.
Did they show you this data? Maybe, they were just giving you a quick, simple answer just to get rid of you? Since you are in sales..the less you know about the problems of the Ody the better.
I'm sure it would help with sales when a customer asks how many transmissions were replaced and you say, just one.
Party at Karens house to blow off some steam everybody! :-)
I don't mind a spirited discussion but when you call me a liar and apply terms like "grease monkeys" to skilled technicians who do complex repairs that I know I sure couldn't do, you have stepped WAY over the line.
Anybody have any door or noise issues lately? I haven't.....
Heywood is bringing the dip! ;-)
Come on isell...those were legitimate questions.Asked in a somewhat unorthodox manner...not trying to be mean spirited in any way.I know the "grease monkeys" of today are extremely skilled and trained in what they do.That was a joke.Do as Karen asked...take a walk around your block a couple times...you'll feel much better. I did.
I believe you. It could be the hilly terrain, or other factors, that accounts for the replacement numbers differences. And again, I am pleased that Honda replaced mine at 35k with no hassles, instead of trying to stonewall. I think they saw the light, as this would have quickly become a PR nightmare after the problems with the '99-'01 4spd units. I am sure many were saved from mid-life failure by the voluntary fix now.
Steve
which is why I would advise him to....
scroll....scroll....scroll....
Thanks!
I expect Isell to defend his product, my salesman does the same. Reagan once said...I trust everything I hear, after I verify it.
I agree, scroll, scroll, scroll
Thanks
BTW my '02 ODY that I traded in had the tranny go out after I sold it around 66K miles.
Geez, does anybody expect a dissertation with footnotes and data charts? True only Honda has ALL the data but personal experience does count for something. I know isell can come on a little strong at times and there are times when I have disagreed or though he could have come across better but this is ridiculous.
2. You can't write off somebody's hands on experience just because they don't have complete factory data. His hands on experience (from his dealer and another) is still more valid than anybody's personal opinion, including mine. Opinion is just that opinion, he has limited experience and is closer than most of us to the facts.
"A design flaw is what Honda is trying to fix by the "Fix", allowing "more" transmission fluid to circulate around the second gear. The transmission wasn't designed this way out of the box, Honda had to come up with a fix, hence it is a bad design."
Ok maybe it WAS a bad design but they are working to fix it which is more than Plymouth did with some of the issues in my old Voyager!
"Since you ask if I had any problems & solutions that I would like to discuss.... How about trying to help an Ody owner when they come to this site with a problem. I mentioned in my post 3951 to set up a conference call with the dealer/honda to find a solution. In the business world that is how things get done, it's called "communication" and it works."
Thank you, that's what we need more of around here is help and communication.
"I have no dog in this fight, I just believe that 4 transmissions in 79k is something out of the ordinary and Honda should find out what's wrong in this situation."
Agreed, a tranmission in 79K is too early, especially with a Honda with its reputation for quality.
Now to the party at Kristie's house. Is the gril lit, I have some steaks to cook!
I'm still holding out hope that Honda is going to work to keep me as a customer. I'll let you know how things go if/when we hear back.
The dealer has never heard of this. Same with the place where I bought the remotes.
This is for a 2000 Odyssey LX