I believe all sport-sedan lovers are latent sports-car nuts. Cars like the "ultimate driving machine" et al are only an intermediate step. If you are a German car fan and like the minimal Porsche interior, you know there's only one answer. Once you start rowing gears in a Porsche or any other sports car for that matter, you'll forget that sport sedans ever existed except for utility. In a sports car, things such as the interior, radio, squeaks and rattles have almost no significance. Of course, that is if the drive is what stirs your blood. Danny makes a good point about Ferraris etc. You will know the real sports-car enthusiast, that is DRIVER, by his odometer.
I have been staying out of here for awhile but have been reading most everything. One of my observations is that there are very few women participating. The posts about women could take on on another aspect...do your wives or women friends drive your car and what do they think about the TL and others? Most of the posts here are from men and are performance oriented. Women are responsible for a large portion of the money spent in our economies. I recently read a report that said they were responsible for the majority of the discretionary money spent. I bought our new TL for my wife. It is the third car I have purchased for her. She never test drives them or participates in the selection. All three have been Acura's. A '91 Legend, a 2000 TL and now an '04 TL. I always look for a car that is a cross between sport and luxury. I am the sport, she is the luxury. She loves the new TL, including the 270 HP. She isn't out racing but is in the car all day driving ( sales job ). The power comes on gradually and is very predictable. She loves the "near luxury" especially the seats and the stereo. The NAV is an absolute necessity as she is constantly having to drive to unfamiliar places. The real thing is she looks very nice in that silver/ebony car and people are constantly telling her what a nice car she drives. On the weekends I get to use the sport piece of the equation. The new TL is a perfect blend for the two of us. After 36 years of marriage I have a pretty good idea of what her expectations are. I laughed when I read the thread about "old people" ( anyone over 30 evidently )not pushing their cars but buying cushy luxury cars. Not always so. I am 58 and still enjoy driving fast and aggressive where it is safe to do so. I started road racing motorcycles at 38. My brother is 60 and has a V8 powered Triumph TR7. Next time your at a light and the guy next to you is in a BMW/TL/??? he may just be like me and decide to have a go. Paul Newman raced well into his 60's. Bottom line...the new sport/luxury cars are a reflection of what people want to buy and in most instances the people who can afford them are older than 30 !
Hmmm, not sure if I agree with you that a sports sedan is an intermediate step to a "sports car" (whatever that means is pretty grey).
I think true car guys buy the most performance they can afford, regardless of packaging. If you have a lot of money to blow, then you probably are considering a Porsche 911. But let's say your budget doesn't allow that and you're looking to spend $50k. At that price point, I would be looking at cars such as used M5s, new M3s, a Z06, a CTS-V. I wouldn't "demerit" the sedans just because they're sedans. I'd look at overall performance and upon doing so I'd see that the M5 and CTS-V BELONG in the company of "sports cars". If I compare those two sedans against what that money buys me at a Porsche dealer (a Boxster), I would actually be taking a step down on the performance scale. Why? So I could have a car with a "sports car" badge on it?
While I will one day own a useless toy like a 911 Turbo, it will not be my primary vehicle. Ever. I want performance and practicality and the 911 is all about having fun.
The M5 to me is still one of the ultimate automobiles in the world.
This is a true driver's interior in my book and hint it ain't German. Buick interiors look like playskool plastics compared to Lexus and Acura's. Not even close.
I agree with designman about "intermediate step to a sport car".
If it still has 4 door, its not a real sport car. It has a second purpose to serve as a family car. Why a sport car need a good audio system like bose, MLS, H-kardon, moonroof, navigation (so you dont get lost in a race track) etc?. just my 2 cents.
Like blueguy said, Sports Sedan drivers are latent sports car nuts. But a sports car is a two seater in my book, or a 2x2 coupe at most ala Porsche 911. Sports Coupes / Sedans are for people who want sporting fun, but who have lots of baggage. :-)
You can make a case for the sedans and coupes being sports cars as some have sports car like performance, and you find them in racing series. but in terms of purity, 1 or 2 seats max = sports car.
Put it this way. You are driving your favorite canyon / mountain road. What do you really want.
Buick...Acura...Lexus = same interior to me. They're designed with the La-zee-boy weaned Americans in mind. Soft leather, soft touch materials, soft, soft, soft.
If it still has 4 door, its not a real sport car. It has a second purpose to serve as a family car. Why a sport car need a good audio system like bose, MLS, H-kardon, moonroof, navigation (so you dont get lost in a race track) etc?. just my 2 cents.
Right the M5 is not a sports car. It's better than most so-called sports cars. I'll take the insane handling, great power, room for 4 adults and their luggage any day over the compromises of say an Elise or a 911.
An Elise or 911 would be a fun weekend toy but I can only imagine the misery of driving 500 miles in a buzzy Elise or with the din of an obnoxious Ferrari motor in my ear.
Yes, I said obnoxious. I'd prefer to never hear my engines. Or the road. Unless it's a convertible, I want zero road, wind, engine, tranny noise. Don't much care if the car has a radio either.
"Buick...Acura...Lexus = same interior to me. They're designed with the La-zee-boy weaned Americans in mind. Soft leather, soft touch materials, soft, soft, soft."
"I'd prefer to never hear my engines. Or the road. Unless it's a convertible, I want zero road, wind, engine, tranny noise. Don't much care if the car has a radio either."
Your two quotes are confusing. The second seems to support the first.Sounds soft soft soft to me. Perhaps there is a La-Zee-boy weaned American just under the surface.
What does a desire for silence have to do with overly stuffed seats and soft materials?
There's nothing complimentary about the two.
If I want to hear the engine, wind, road or tires, I can open the moonroof or power down the windows. Otherwise I want to drive the car with the 6 speed clicking away, revs racing, car carving down the road in eery, removed near silence.
Essentially, I want it both ways. As it stands now we're stuck always hearing something.
It just sounded like you were exchanging one creature comfort for another to me. Usually a quiet car is one with "near luxury accoutrements. The TL is very quiet and not what I would call cushy. The seats are a great improvement over previous TL's. When I am driving I like to have the stereo blasting away and the moonroof open. Just different strokes I guess.
msg #944 "Buick...Acura...Lexus = same interior to me. They're designed with the La-zee-boy weaned Americans in mind. Soft leather, soft touch materials, soft, soft, soft."
msg#922 "I wouldn't touch an STi or Evo because I find the interiors scary cheap."
You dont like excellent interior or bad interior. You like a quiet car and a noisy car (you like it both ways).
So which car you prefer? in term of near luxury performance sedan.
I don't like cheap or soft. Why is that a difficult concept? I prefer the more austere feel and appearance of Teutonic machines and even some Infinitis over anything offered by Lexus, Acura and naturally the USA.
As for the sound thing, I'm baffled as to why people think it's out of sorts to want your car to be whisper quiet on the inside.
Currently I drive a 2003 330i with the Performance Package. The muffler makes a constant, droning rasp that reminds me of my sister's first Miata on long drives to So Cal with the top down. The other bimmers I've ridden in are quieter but still there's too much road and wind and engine noise.
It's not too hard to figure out what I prefer given what I bought. The G35 came in 3rd in my choices as I didn't dig the sloppy suspension or typical truck-like Nissan manual. Acura's TL with a 6 speed probably would have come in second as I would have even taken a TSX 6 speed over the G35.
Nothing else was even close as, the Lexus IS bored me with numb steering, a lackluster engine and a very, very bad image in so cal (teen brats drive IS300s around here - the rich kids Jetta\?Accord). Audi's A4 lacks any sort of punch and it has fwd or its god-awful power-sapping quattro (plus I was dropping a VW as they make horrible cars). MB's C class is a joke in terms of handling and power. CTS..rofl. It was always a 3 horse race among the manufacturers with decent, fun entry lux cars...Acura, Infiniti and BMW.
If only I could be so cursed to have to listen to that awful sound of the Enzo 12 cylinder engine as it screamed toward redline in each gear!! Some may consider an engine as noise, but in a car of this class, it would be music to my ears!
Try it for 7 hours straight and you'd be longing for a G sedan or a sedan de ville for that matter. Ferrari's are not made to be driven for more than a few miles. Imagine the cost of taking one 120,000 miles - dont they rebuild it every 36k or something. Its a race car engine so I guess those few mile rock!
the concept is difficult to grasp because you say "I want to drive the car with the 6 speed clicking away, revs racing, car carving down the road in eery, removed near silence"
But in your ideal car as you are describing it, you can't hear the "revs racing" and you have no idea when to shift unless you are staring at the tach rather than watching those curves. I think that's how you are confusing everyone.
Unless you can feel, hear, and be totally in tune with the machine, you are falling short of true sport driving.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
And that's why I didn't get the 330i. I test drove one a year ago. Loved the performance part, and but hated how loudly , IMO, the exhaust sounded with just a light touch of the gas pedal. And that car didn't even have a sport package.
I like a 'sleeper' type of car that can trounce the pavement and hug curves when called upon.
the "revs racing" and you have no idea when to shift unless you are staring at the tach rather than watching those curves.
I shift by feel not by engine sound. I know what my cars are doing by the pull of the engine. As I owned a car for years without a tach, I almost never look at my current ones. Shrug. Same can be said of the speedo...I'm pretty much just always scanning for the fascists in black and whites.
Still stand by my desire...absolute silence unless I decide to add some auditory stimulation.
you got away without a tach because you could hear it. You may think you were only going by feel, but your senses work together imperceptibly. That's the beauty of the human body. Its just like the old trick of not being able to fully taste something when you can't smell it.
if its too quiet, you can't tell what is going on. By the pull of the engine? Ok, so how does that translate as to when to shift? When it stops pulling that means you've hit the rev limiter, so you should shift??
This is one of those things that you should be careful what you ask for because you might get it. I am sure that if you got your wish and had a completely silent car, you wouldn't have a clue what is going on without looking at the guages. Maybe after quite some time with the car, you could get used to what speed objects are traveling past you to trigger your shifting, but it would not be intuitive from the start and would take alot of conditioning.
I am driving a perfect example now. I am currently stuck with a rental 2004 Maxima with the shiftronic. I can't tell what the heck that thing is doing without looking at the tach because it is so quiet. And that quietness also affects the perception of velocity so it turns out I'm always going much faster than I thought.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Well, you're in a better situation than I am...I owned one. After I turned away from the 330i last year, I went ahead and bought a 03' Maxima. It's not as silent as I'd preferred, but it's more so than the 330. However, nimble and agile it is not. No offense to any Maxima fans, but I feel it's not much better than my '87 Integra in term of handling. I knew I would make compromises by going with the Max, but now I think would be much happier with the 330. Oh well, you live and learn.
not much better than your Integra?? Considering the Integra was considered one of the best handlers of its day, that's saying alot.
I never drove the previous generation (although I did test an I30 once) so I don't know how different this '04 redesign is.
I really like the power of the Maxima, I'll give it that. But the ergonomics are horrible. I don't know who they designed these seats for. And forget about changing the climate controls while driving. I have to glance down about 3 times to find the button I'm looking for.
It does corner much flatter than I expected, though. I'm not saying its agile, just better than I expected, that's all.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Sport sedans are a compromise between luxury cars and sport cars. I consider my 530 quiet, but I can always hear the delicious growl of the engine. What's more, as others suggested, this should be savored. If you don't like noise you have to get a pure luxury car.
When I'm driving my Boxster S I often turn the radio off just so I can listen to the engine... has a jet-like whir and the exhaust notes sound like Charlie Parker wailing on his tenor sax. And when that baby gets to full boil, there isn't a sweeter sound in the universe.
Blueguy, you said you love the M5 as do I. I couldn't imagine wanting to drive that rocket without hearing those 400 horses. You must have sensitive ears. I have no problem doing long trips listening to the engine. What I hate are seats with horrible lumbar support.
I know 99% of enthusiasts don't agree with me. I love to drive. But when I'm in a car I'd rather not have anything else intruding into my time.
My favorite part of a road trip...when my passenger drifts off to sleep and I can turn off the radio and just cruise.
Oh and someone asked how you can tell when to shift without listening. If I've got my stereo blasting there's no way in hades I can hear my engine but I can definitely feel on BMW's peaky engines where the car's at in the torque curve. Slight pull is under 3k. Little thrust is up to 4k. Press you back in the seat is over 5k. Given the very distinct build in power of BMW's inline 6, it's cake to tell where you are on the tach.
Yep, beneath that bloated and elongated body, the Maxima does have power. I've been challenged three times already by some ignorant souls driving a Windstar, a 4Runner, and a souped-up Miata. I was like: "pick on somebody your size, punk!" Then I let them eat my dust. Yeah, funny but true. And you're right about the seat. I'm slipping and sliding at every corner.
blueguydotcom... Completely disagree with your statement: "Nothing else was even close as, the Lexus IS bored me with numb steering, a lackluster engine and a very, very bad image in so cal (teen brats drive IS300s around here - the rich kids Jetta/Accord)."
1. Who the heck cares about "image"? Or who drives how many of what? What relevancy does that have to do with anything? If everyone hated the "best" cars to drive the worst, would you join them? Or if they all drove the "best" would you drive the "worst" just to be different?
2. If you want something exclusive, keep in mind that sales for 3 Series, G35, TL, and CTS are all far, far higher than IS. Those other cars are dime a dozen on the road compared to the rare IS and the even rarer IS SportCross (touring).
3. There is nothing "numb" about the IS's steering. More like razor sharp and precise.
4. Price out a 325i and an IS300. You can have the latter for less, if reasonably equally equipped, and it can even have more equipment (e.g., LSD). You can't even get LSD with the 330i Perf Pkg (which has an MSRP almost $10,000 more than the IS300).\
Your comment had me thinking about the late great Superbird hemi-engined muscle car. Some thought it was too flambouyant and over the top back then. The "wrong" crowd wanted them and drove them. Now they go for nearly $100,000 at auction.
Maybe he didn't mean quite "numb", but I've test driven them and driven my cousin's and there is a layer of isolation there. I'd like to know what the front wheels are doing a LITTLE more intimately.
Other than that, the IS300 is a good deal for its size and power and handling.
Someone said "CTS... rofl" a few posts back. I won't pretend the CTS is currently a class leader but it does keep getting better. The 3.6L, 255hp, with 6 speed manual hits dealers this summer and it will then hang with the G35 crowd. Which is to say, still a bit down on raw power compared to the TL, but more along the lines of G35/530/IS300 handling.
Riez 1. Who the heck cares about "image"? Or who drives how many of what? What relevancy does that have to do with anything?
Everything. It's part of the reason I dislike owning a BMW and part of why I like driving my Mazda on weekdays.
If everyone hated the "best" cars to drive the worst, would you join them? Or if they all drove the "best" would you drive the "worst" just to be different?
No I still bought a car with a very bad public image. That fact weighed heavily on my mind before making the trip back to the dealer. I talked to two close friends about it extensively as I'm a torn jeans and old t-shirts kinda guy and the BMW carries a stigma I dislike. While getting gas on weekends I've actually been asked by other people if I was borrowing my BMW.
2. If you want something exclusive, keep in mind that sales for 3 Series, G35, TL, and CTS are all far, far higher than IS. Those other cars are dime a dozen on the road compared to the rare IS and the even rarer IS SportCross (touring).
Unfortunately, the IS isn't rare here. It's all over the place and usually travelling in a pack amongst Civics and Integras. I didn't want exclusive. I wanted something not owned pretty much exclusively by modder boys with 19 inch rims and giant spoilers.
3. There is nothing "numb" about the IS's steering. More like razor sharp and precise.
Driven two and I'd say the steering is numb. To each his own. You can go round and round on the subjective but neither side can win what feels right to them and not to another. You like it, as Chris likes the road feel of the G35. That's why they make more than just vanilla ice cream.
4. Price out a 325i and an IS300. You can have the latter for less, if reasonably equally equipped, and it can even have more equipment (e.g., LSD). You can't even get LSD with the 330i Perf Pkg (which has an MSRP almost $10,000 more than the IS300).\
I'd sooner drive just about anything over a 325i. I think it's a rip off. Why pay 30k for a car with no guts and bad worksmanship? It'd be like owning a VW/Audi again.
Your comment had me thinking about the late great Superbird hemi-engined muscle car. Some thought it was too flambouyant and over the top back then. The "wrong" crowd wanted them and drove them. Now they go for nearly $100,000 at auction.
So a Toyota Altezza transplant with an iron block 3.0 inline 6 will be a collector's car? Okey dokey. Wishful thinking?
The lack of power and poor steering feel played the biggest role in my decision to pass on an IS. The car didn't excite me. Unlike the G, TSX and BMW 330i, I wasn't smiling while driving the IS... actually I only wanted to get out of it both times.
The desperation of the Lexus dealership who dropped the price to invoice made me uneasy as they called back over and over with lower offers. He was begging me to buy the car. Creepy. Finally, seeing 16-24 year old boys exclusively driving the Lexus IS reminded me of why I passed on the Integra GS-R in 97.
BrianSomeone said "CTS... rofl" a few posts back. I won't pretend the CTS is currently a class leader but it does keep getting better. The 3.6L, 255hp, with 6 speed manual hits dealers this summer and it will then hang with the G35 crowd. Which is to say, still a bit down on raw power compared to the TL, but more along the lines of G35/530/IS300 handling.
I had the misfortune of piloting a 5 speed CTS with the old engine. It had the so-called sport packaging too. The car bobbed and undulated on hard corners. The interior was a mess, exterior not much better. The dealership seemed really enamored with it being a Caddy. When he asked if I'd buy one I said it lacked the punch and sublime road feel of the German targets. This tool asserted the CTS competes against no one as it's a Caddy. Okay, I guess only pimps would be interested in it then...dunno. He also scoffed at my request for a manual - even though they had one - as he felt Caddies shouldn't have a manual. In the end my experience with the Caddy was a sharp reminder why American car companies should go the way of the dodo.
325 a ripoff?...How about the 330?...you are paying nearly $7,100 more for literally the same car with .5 liters of added displacement. If the 325 is a ripoff, the 330 is outright highway robbery. Are you kidding me?
One car has power, the other doesn't. I'm paying 7k extra so I can move in a manner befitting a car costing 30-40k. There's a marked difference in rumbling to 60 in under 6 seconds and taking well over 7 seconds.
31-32k for a 325 gets me a car with great handling, bad reliability (average is bad as hitting the 50 percentile in anything is horrible), a lackluster engine, horrible tranny and the stigma associated with BMW.
In my cost to fun ratio the 325i ranks below just about everybody in that segment save for the CTS and A4.
"Interesting - when did more horsepower mean more raw power? Torque by definition is raw power and the TL is the class bottom on that one..."
Why G35 is slower than new TL that has 5.7 secs in 0-60? 1. G35 torque is 260 2. TL torque is 238 3. CTS torque is 220 4. IS300 torque is 218 5. 330i torque is 214 6. 325i torque is 175 while its hp is 184
The bottom of the class? where the hell did you get that? TL horse power is 270 while G35 is 260.
Subaru WRX/STI with 300hp and 300 ft/lbs torque with 5.4 secs in 0-60. If you like torque power this one is better but with only 0.3 secs difference. Just like blueguy said, I wouldnt touch it.
I agree with blueguy about 325i but I still love BMW stylings
"31-32k for a 325 gets me a car with great handling, bad reliability (average is bad as hitting the 50 percentile in anything is horrible), a lackluster engine, horrible tranny and the stigma associated with BMW"
tranny ?!?
It seems with German cars that you get performance and handling but reliability is not too good. Are there reliable german cars ?
Frankly, i have driving an Acura for 5+ years; it may not be the most exciting car but i know it is very reliable and maintenance is not an issue. Deciding to buy a BMW knowing its reliability and costs has been a difficult one.
I don't know how you can excuse the phrase "American car companies should go the way of the dodo". Saying they ARE going down, or WERE going down, or WILL CONTINUE to go downhill, implies an opinion of what *you* think is happening. That's one thing. To come out and dictate that GM and Ford *should* be driven to extinction is quite rude. Let's assume for a minute that Caddy's are 100% trash. Why not let market forces cause GM sales to dive and cause bankruptcy? Isn't that what America stands for, the free market? At one point in history, the cars your beloved Honda was making would have elicited nothing but laughs from performance enthusiasts. Yet notice how far they have come because of competition.
I agree your experience at the dealership leaves much to be desired. Although it does not excuse their behavior, you have to remember that Cadillac is, fairly successfully compared to say Lincoln, trying to shift their demographic to a more youthful group. Old ways are hard to change unfortunately.
That said, I have been treated poorly at a Lexus dealership. They were all quite smug acting as if their IS300 was the only sport sedan in town. So I think this attitude comes from certain sales people and not the brand.
When I said "raw power", I meant to convey the general "pull", or "kick" of the car, especially as a reference to 0 to 60 feel. Sorry wrong choice of words.
Also, that 220 you quote is for the 3.2 CTS. The new 3.6 is 255 hp / 252 lb ft torque. That's why I said earlier it will be in the same ballpark as the fastest other RWDs in this class. Of course that's all "paper racing", it will be interesting to see what MT or C&D say.
blueguydotcom... I'll let Bimmer magazine, a most biased source against the IS, speak for me. Check out their 4/01 comparison test of the IS300 vs 330Ci:
"The Lexus' steering, on the other hand, is exemplary. Not only is it exceptionally tight and precise, with just the right level of power assist at all speeds, but it gives immaculate feedback, as well. The steering wheel itself is fat but small in diameter, and with no supplemental controls save the [AT] gearshift buttons, it's nicely uncluttered, as well. It's perfectly capable of communicating precise information about how much grip is available from the front, what the road surface is doing to the chassi, how much angle is dialed into the wheels, etc."
They said it had "superior steering" over the 330Ci.
Remember, this is a biased BMW source. I'd say that is high praise indeed!
bxd20... While every dealer is different and there can always be a bad apple in the bunch... My local Lexus and Infinit dealers are both heads over heels better than the local BMW dealer. The BMW dealer won't even offer loaner cars unless you bought from him. This dealer spent a fortune building his new building just a couple years ago. But it even lacks a proper waiting area. You have to wait over at the Ford dealer; they share a parking lot. And there is no parking, for either his cars or yours. The BMW dealer about 150 miles away much better, though that is a combined BMW, MB, Land Rover dealer. Yet, it pales in comparison to the amenities of the Lexus dealer down the street. And the saddest thing about having traded my two Infiniti a few years back was losing the great dealership and wonderful customer service. We got to know the staff personally.
Say what you will about their cars, but Lexus and Infiniti have worked hard to dominate the dealership ratings for nearly 15 consecutive years, by most sources. Their customer service is rarely second to anyone else in the car business.
I am feeling dated when you mention the superbird. There was only one in the small town I grew up in. In an attempt to add another one, some of the local boys took an old Rambler and painted it the same color yellow. They built a wing out of scrap lumber and screwed it on the trunk. A rudimentary nose was formed out of some plywood. When they were done, after very little thought, they christen it the sh1t bird. On the weekends they would cruise the town looking for the real yellow bird and park next to it whenever possible. The only person who didn't enjoy the joke was the real bird's owner.
I have never driven an IS so I'll reserve judgement on whether it's steering is worse, as good, or better than BMW's, but Bimmer is written by hardcore driving enthusiasts. They are consistently harder on BMW and their mistakes than any other source that I personally read. If I remember correctly, that comparison involved an early production 330Ci with the "new" steering. It took about 6 months before BMW, realizing the mistake, switched back to the "old" steering. FWIW, I bought an 01/01 production 330Ci and took part in BMW's steering retro offer. The difference between the two is huge!
At one point in history, the cars your beloved Honda was making would have elicited nothing but laughs from performance enthusiasts. Yet notice how far they have come because of competition.
Beloved honda? I own a BMW and a Mazda.
you have to remember that Cadillac is, fairly successfully compared to say Lincoln, trying to shift their demographic to a more youthful group. Old ways are hard to change unfortunately.
That's like saying compared to Manson, John Wayne Gacey was sorta sane.
No matter what they're still American companies and I'll freely admit I'm biased. I will buy Japanese and German but it'd take something mindblowing to ever get me to buy American.
They said it had "superior steering" over the 330Ci.
Remember, this is a biased BMW source. I'd say that is high praise indeed!
Riez, are they buying my car for me? No. then why should I get something I find to offer numb steering? Using quotes from car magazines is pretty useless when it comes to a subjective thing like road feel.
kominsky... Been subscribing to Bimmer for a couple years. I can't remember a non-BMW "beating" out a BMW in the comparisons I've read, including their review of the 330Ci vs IS300.
blueguydotcom... The primary point of the quote is to show that most sources who have actually tested an IS300--including those not disposed to love it--have raved about its steering. Your counter assessment flies against the majority opinion.
C&D, 10/00: "surgically precise steering combines with the car's nimble disposition to provide all the moves you need"
Automobile, 6/00: "steering is correspondingly quick and accurate".
MT, 9/00: "its steering response so quick, precise, and communicative that it keeps up with the 328i Sport on sheer athleticism."
CR, 5/01: "The steering feels responsive".
Edmunds, 7/01: "razor-sharp steering".
C&D, 3/04: In 7-car comparison, IS300 steering rated a 9 out of 10, falling only behind the 325i's steering.
Just a sampling. Plenty more of same. I'll keep looking to see if I can find anyone who calls it "numb".
6 grand less gets a WRX. An IS300 loaded gets an STi, not to mention the others in the Subaru lineup. Luxury in that platform is a non-factor and the performance just isn't enough. This is why these cars don't sell and Lexus should have known this.
Wouldn't mind having a Sport Cross based just on looks. IMO it's the best looking car in their repertoire and one of the best looking cars period. Lack of AWD drive is a shame.
So far you've said nothing to justify the $7,100 difference between the 325i and 330. The difference is 40 horses. It's the same car, same tranny, same poor BMW reliability. And unless you are a stoplight racer for a living the 0-60mph difference is inconcequential. The 325i has enough power to move that car very well. I personally, think they are both a ripoff, and that's why I went with an A4...but the 330 is by far the biggest insult to one's intelligence.
blueguydotcom: "No matter what they're still American companies and I'll freely admit I'm biased. I will buy Japanese and German but it'd take something mindblowing to ever get me to buy American." That speaks for itself.
As far as the IS300 vs. 3 series steering feel goes, I have another theory to throw out. Riding in the IS300, I feel very well insulated from road noise, wind noise, drivetrain vibration. Could all that sound deadening contribute to a less-connected feel? When you don't hear, or feel, the cracks in the road and your brain is used to doing so, it might be interpreting that as meaning Avalon-like handling.
I sort of agreed with you up until you said you went with an A4. I would say for 30+ k (40 if you really load it up) the A4 is very lacking in the power department. I have ridden and driven them and they feel way too underpowered. Handle like a dream and look great but for that kind of dough they should have more power.
I think everyone agrees that the BMW is a overpriced but everyone also seems to agree that it is a great car. I would have loved to have one but could not afford the extra money for the 330 (went with a CL-S) and the 325 was just too slow for me. Sadly i think BMW sells so much because so many people buy them for status and the more they raise the price the more people seem to want them.
There are plenty of differences between the 325i and the 330 beyond just the engine. For starters how about the transmission (yes, it is different), suspension, brakes, wheels and tires, power memory seat (left side), power seat (right side), upgraded audio system and of course the ever important trip computer.
Regarding the "same poor BMW reliability", ummm, yeah right. Hate to burst your bubble, however, all scientific and anecdotal evidence suggests that the Audi line is considerably worse. Contrast that with my personal experience of over five years of BMW driving and so far, I have had two burned out taillights. Now, I realize that the Lexus crowd would be aghast at how unreliable my cars have been, but personally, I can live with that. ;-)
As for what's a rip off, and what’s an insults one's intelligence, well, one could say that the only car that wasn't an insult would be a completely utilitarian car which will get one from point A to point B and nothing more.
I got a loaded A4 1.8T frontrack for just under $30K. It won't win any stoplight races with those 6 cyl engines, but it has plenty of power for my purposes. I'd harldy call that a ripoff.
Shipo,
I am not comparing BMW to Audi in terms of reliability. I am poiting out to Blue that reliabilitywise the 325 and 330 are the same car. BTW...I've had two Beemers in my family and they were always in shop with electrical glitches. Compared to their Japanese counterparts BMW reliability is poor. BTW you can get a sport suspension, power seats, and trip computer in a 325
Comments
I bought our new TL for my wife. It is the third car I have purchased for her. She never test drives them or participates in the selection. All three have been Acura's. A '91 Legend, a 2000 TL and now an '04 TL. I always look for a car that is a cross between sport and luxury. I am the sport, she is the luxury. She loves the new TL, including the 270 HP. She isn't out racing but is in the car all day driving ( sales job ). The power comes on gradually and is very predictable.
She loves the "near luxury" especially the seats and the stereo. The NAV is an absolute necessity as she is constantly having to drive to unfamiliar places. The real thing is she looks very nice in that silver/ebony car and people are constantly telling her what a nice car she drives. On the weekends I get to use the sport piece of the equation. The new TL is a perfect blend for the two of us. After 36 years of marriage I have a pretty good idea of what her expectations are.
I laughed when I read the thread about "old people" ( anyone over 30 evidently )not pushing their cars but buying cushy luxury cars. Not always so. I am 58 and still enjoy driving fast and aggressive where it is safe to do so. I started road racing motorcycles at 38. My brother is 60 and has a V8 powered Triumph TR7. Next time your at a light and the guy next to you is in a BMW/TL/??? he may just be like me and decide to have a go. Paul Newman raced well into his 60's.
Bottom line...the new sport/luxury cars are a reflection of what people want to buy and in most instances the people who can afford them are older than 30 !
Bottom Line... We old goats will blow the doors off you young whippersnappers!
;-)
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I think true car guys buy the most performance they can afford, regardless of packaging. If you have a lot of money to blow, then you probably are considering a Porsche 911. But let's say your budget doesn't allow that and you're looking to spend $50k. At that price point, I would be looking at cars such as used M5s, new M3s, a Z06, a CTS-V. I wouldn't "demerit" the sedans just because they're sedans. I'd look at overall performance and upon doing so I'd see that the M5 and CTS-V BELONG in the company of "sports cars". If I compare those two sedans against what that money buys me at a Porsche dealer (a Boxster), I would actually be taking a step down on the performance scale. Why? So I could have a car with a "sports car" badge on it?
Brian
The M5 to me is still one of the ultimate automobiles in the world.
This is a true driver's interior in my book and hint it ain't German.
Buick interiors look like playskool plastics compared to Lexus and Acura's. Not even close.
If it still has 4 door, its not a real sport car. It has a second purpose to serve as a family car. Why a sport car need a good audio system like bose, MLS, H-kardon, moonroof, navigation (so you dont get lost in a race track) etc?. just my 2 cents.
You can make a case for the sedans and coupes being sports cars as some have sports car like performance, and you find them in racing series. but in terms of purity, 1 or 2 seats max = sports car.
Put it this way. You are driving your favorite canyon / mountain road. What do you really want.
Porsche GT3 or E55 AMG.
Corvette Z06 or Cadillac CTS-V
Give me the sports car.
If it still has 4 door, its not a real sport car. It has a second purpose to serve as a family car. Why a sport car need a good audio system like bose, MLS, H-kardon, moonroof, navigation (so you dont get lost in a race track) etc?. just my 2 cents.
Right the M5 is not a sports car. It's better than most so-called sports cars. I'll take the insane handling, great power, room for 4 adults and their luggage any day over the compromises of say an Elise or a 911.
An Elise or 911 would be a fun weekend toy but I can only imagine the misery of driving 500 miles in a buzzy Elise or with the din of an obnoxious Ferrari motor in my ear.
Yes, I said obnoxious. I'd prefer to never hear my engines. Or the road. Unless it's a convertible, I want zero road, wind, engine, tranny noise. Don't much care if the car has a radio either.
"I'd prefer to never hear my engines. Or the road. Unless it's a convertible, I want zero road, wind, engine, tranny noise. Don't much care if the car has a radio either."
Your two quotes are confusing. The second seems to support the first.Sounds soft soft soft to me. Perhaps there is a La-Zee-boy weaned American
just under the surface.
There's nothing complimentary about the two.
If I want to hear the engine, wind, road or tires, I can open the moonroof or power down the windows. Otherwise I want to drive the car with the 6 speed clicking away, revs racing, car carving down the road in eery, removed near silence.
Essentially, I want it both ways. As it stands now we're stuck always hearing something.
When I am driving I like to have the stereo blasting away and the moonroof open. Just different strokes I guess.
"Buick...Acura...Lexus = same interior to me. They're designed with the La-zee-boy weaned Americans in mind. Soft leather, soft touch materials, soft, soft, soft."
msg#922
"I wouldn't touch an STi or Evo because I find the interiors scary cheap."
You dont like excellent interior or bad interior.
You like a quiet car and a noisy car (you like it both ways).
So which car you prefer? in term of near luxury performance sedan.
As for the sound thing, I'm baffled as to why people think it's out of sorts to want your car to be whisper quiet on the inside.
Currently I drive a 2003 330i with the Performance Package. The muffler makes a constant, droning rasp that reminds me of my sister's first Miata on long drives to So Cal with the top down. The other bimmers I've ridden in are quieter but still there's too much road and wind and engine noise.
It's not too hard to figure out what I prefer given what I bought. The G35 came in 3rd in my choices as I didn't dig the sloppy suspension or typical truck-like Nissan manual. Acura's TL with a 6 speed probably would have come in second as I would have even taken a TSX 6 speed over the G35.
Nothing else was even close as, the Lexus IS bored me with numb steering, a lackluster engine and a very, very bad image in so cal (teen brats drive IS300s around here - the rich kids Jetta\?Accord). Audi's A4 lacks any sort of punch and it has fwd or its god-awful power-sapping quattro (plus I was dropping a VW as they make horrible cars). MB's C class is a joke in terms of handling and power. CTS..rofl. It was always a 3 horse race among the manufacturers with decent, fun entry lux cars...Acura, Infiniti and BMW.
But in your ideal car as you are describing it, you can't hear the "revs racing" and you have no idea when to shift unless you are staring at the tach rather than watching those curves. I think that's how you are confusing everyone.
Unless you can feel, hear, and be totally in tune with the machine, you are falling short of true sport driving.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I like a 'sleeper' type of car that can trounce the pavement and hug curves when called upon.
I shift by feel not by engine sound. I know what my cars are doing by the pull of the engine. As I owned a car for years without a tach, I almost never look at my current ones. Shrug. Same can be said of the speedo...I'm pretty much just always scanning for the fascists in black and whites.
Still stand by my desire...absolute silence unless I decide to add some auditory stimulation.
if its too quiet, you can't tell what is going on. By the pull of the engine? Ok, so how does that translate as to when to shift? When it stops pulling that means you've hit the rev limiter, so you should shift??
This is one of those things that you should be careful what you ask for because you might get it. I am sure that if you got your wish and had a completely silent car, you wouldn't have a clue what is going on without looking at the guages. Maybe after quite some time with the car, you could get used to what speed objects are traveling past you to trigger your shifting, but it would not be intuitive from the start and would take alot of conditioning.
I am driving a perfect example now. I am currently stuck with a rental 2004 Maxima with the shiftronic. I can't tell what the heck that thing is doing without looking at the tach because it is so quiet. And that quietness also affects the perception of velocity so it turns out I'm always going much faster than I thought.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
However, nimble and agile it is not. No offense to any Maxima fans, but I feel it's not much better than my '87 Integra in term of handling. I knew I would make compromises by going with the Max, but now I think would be much happier with the 330.
Oh well, you live and learn.
I never drove the previous generation (although I did test an I30 once) so I don't know how different this '04 redesign is.
I really like the power of the Maxima, I'll give it that. But the ergonomics are horrible. I don't know who they designed these seats for. And forget about changing the climate controls while driving. I have to glance down about 3 times to find the button I'm looking for.
It does corner much flatter than I expected, though. I'm not saying its agile, just better than I expected, that's all.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
When I'm driving my Boxster S I often turn the radio off just so I can listen to the engine... has a jet-like whir and the exhaust notes sound like Charlie Parker wailing on his tenor sax. And when that baby gets to full boil, there isn't a sweeter sound in the universe.
Blueguy, you said you love the M5 as do I. I couldn't imagine wanting to drive that rocket without hearing those 400 horses. You must have sensitive ears. I have no problem doing long trips listening to the engine. What I hate are seats with horrible lumbar support.
My favorite part of a road trip...when my passenger drifts off to sleep and I can turn off the radio and just cruise.
Oh and someone asked how you can tell when to shift without listening. If I've got my stereo blasting there's no way in hades I can hear my engine but I can definitely feel on BMW's peaky engines where the car's at in the torque curve. Slight pull is under 3k. Little thrust is up to 4k. Press you back in the seat is over 5k. Given the very distinct build in power of BMW's inline 6, it's cake to tell where you are on the tach.
And you're right about the seat. I'm slipping and sliding at every corner.
1. Who the heck cares about "image"? Or who drives how many of what? What relevancy does that have to do with anything? If everyone hated the "best" cars to drive the worst, would you join them? Or if they all drove the "best" would you drive the "worst" just to be different?
2. If you want something exclusive, keep in mind that sales for 3 Series, G35, TL, and CTS are all far, far higher than IS. Those other cars are dime a dozen on the road compared to the rare IS and the even rarer IS SportCross (touring).
3. There is nothing "numb" about the IS's steering. More like razor sharp and precise.
4. Price out a 325i and an IS300. You can have the latter for less, if reasonably equally equipped, and it can even have more equipment (e.g., LSD). You can't even get LSD with the 330i Perf Pkg (which has an MSRP almost $10,000 more than the IS300).\
Your comment had me thinking about the late great Superbird hemi-engined muscle car. Some thought it was too flambouyant and over the top back then. The "wrong" crowd wanted them and drove them. Now they go for nearly $100,000 at auction.
Other than that, the IS300 is a good deal for its size and power and handling.
Someone said "CTS... rofl" a few posts back. I won't pretend the CTS is currently a class leader but it does keep getting better. The 3.6L, 255hp, with 6 speed manual hits dealers this summer and it will then hang with the G35 crowd. Which is to say, still a bit down on raw power compared to the TL, but more along the lines of G35/530/IS300 handling.
Brian
Everything. It's part of the reason I dislike owning a BMW and part of why I like driving my Mazda on weekdays.
If everyone hated the "best" cars to drive the worst, would you join them? Or if they all drove the "best" would you drive the "worst" just to be different?
No I still bought a car with a very bad public image. That fact weighed heavily on my mind before making the trip back to the dealer. I talked to two close friends about it extensively as I'm a torn jeans and old t-shirts kinda guy and the BMW carries a stigma I dislike. While getting gas on weekends I've actually been asked by other people if I was borrowing my BMW.
2. If you want something exclusive, keep in mind that sales for 3 Series, G35, TL, and CTS are all far, far higher than IS. Those other cars are dime a dozen on the road compared to the rare IS and the even rarer IS SportCross (touring).
Unfortunately, the IS isn't rare here. It's all over the place and usually travelling in a pack amongst Civics and Integras. I didn't want exclusive. I wanted something not owned pretty much exclusively by modder boys with 19 inch rims and giant spoilers.
3. There is nothing "numb" about the IS's steering. More like razor sharp and precise.
Driven two and I'd say the steering is numb. To each his own. You can go round and round on the subjective but neither side can win what feels right to them and not to another. You like it, as Chris likes the road feel of the G35. That's why they make more than just vanilla ice cream.
4. Price out a 325i and an IS300. You can have the latter for less, if reasonably equally equipped, and it can even have more equipment (e.g., LSD). You can't even get LSD with the 330i Perf Pkg (which has an MSRP almost $10,000 more than the IS300).\
I'd sooner drive just about anything over a 325i. I think it's a rip off. Why pay 30k for a car with no guts and bad worksmanship? It'd be like owning a VW/Audi again.
Your comment had me thinking about the late great Superbird hemi-engined muscle car. Some thought it was too flambouyant and over the top back then. The "wrong" crowd wanted them and drove them. Now they go for nearly $100,000 at auction.
So a Toyota Altezza transplant with an iron block 3.0 inline 6 will be a collector's car? Okey dokey. Wishful thinking?
The lack of power and poor steering feel played the biggest role in my decision to pass on an IS. The car didn't excite me. Unlike the G, TSX and BMW 330i, I wasn't smiling while driving the IS... actually I only wanted to get out of it both times.
The desperation of the Lexus dealership who dropped the price to invoice made me uneasy as they called back over and over with lower offers. He was begging me to buy the car. Creepy. Finally, seeing 16-24 year old boys exclusively driving the Lexus IS reminded me of why I passed on the Integra GS-R in 97.
BrianSomeone said "CTS... rofl" a few posts back. I won't pretend the CTS is currently a class leader but it does keep getting better. The 3.6L, 255hp, with 6 speed manual hits dealers this summer and it will then hang with the G35 crowd. Which is to say, still a bit down on raw power compared to the TL, but more along the lines of G35/530/IS300 handling.
I had the misfortune of piloting a 5 speed CTS with the old engine. It had the so-called sport packaging too. The car bobbed and undulated on hard corners. The interior was a mess, exterior not much better. The dealership seemed really enamored with it being a Caddy. When he asked if I'd buy one I said it lacked the punch and sublime road feel of the German targets. This tool asserted the CTS competes against no one as it's a Caddy. Okay, I guess only pimps would be interested in it then...dunno. He also scoffed at my request for a manual - even though they had one - as he felt Caddies shouldn't have a manual. In the end my experience with the Caddy was a sharp reminder why American car companies should go the way of the dodo.
Interesting - when did more horsepower mean more raw power? Torque by definition is raw power and the TL is the class bottom on that one...
31-32k for a 325 gets me a car with great handling, bad reliability (average is bad as hitting the 50 percentile in anything is horrible), a lackluster engine, horrible tranny and the stigma associated with BMW.
In my cost to fun ratio the 325i ranks below just about everybody in that segment save for the CTS and A4.
Why G35 is slower than new TL that has 5.7 secs in 0-60?
1. G35 torque is 260
2. TL torque is 238
3. CTS torque is 220
4. IS300 torque is 218
5. 330i torque is 214
6. 325i torque is 175 while its hp is 184
The bottom of the class? where the hell did you get that? TL horse power is 270 while G35 is 260.
Subaru WRX/STI with 300hp and 300 ft/lbs torque with 5.4 secs in 0-60. If you like torque power this one is better but with only 0.3 secs difference. Just like blueguy said, I wouldnt touch it.
I agree with blueguy about 325i but I still love BMW stylings
tranny ?!?
It seems with German cars that you get performance and handling but reliability is not too good. Are there reliable german cars ?
Frankly, i have driving an Acura for 5+ years; it may not be the most exciting car but i know it is very reliable and maintenance is not an issue. Deciding to buy a BMW knowing its reliability and costs has been a difficult one.
I agree your experience at the dealership leaves much to be desired. Although it does not excuse their behavior, you have to remember that Cadillac is, fairly successfully compared to say Lincoln, trying to shift their demographic to a more youthful group. Old ways are hard to change unfortunately.
That said, I have been treated poorly at a Lexus dealership. They were all quite smug acting as if their IS300 was the only sport sedan in town. So I think this attitude comes from certain sales people and not the brand.
When I said "raw power", I meant to convey the general "pull", or "kick" of the car, especially as a reference to 0 to 60 feel. Sorry wrong choice of words.
Also, that 220 you quote is for the 3.2 CTS. The new 3.6 is 255 hp / 252 lb ft torque. That's why I said earlier it will be in the same ballpark as the fastest other RWDs in this class. Of course that's all "paper racing", it will be interesting to see what MT or C&D say.
Brian
"The Lexus' steering, on the other hand, is exemplary. Not only is it exceptionally tight and precise, with just the right level of power assist at all speeds, but it gives immaculate feedback, as well. The steering wheel itself is fat but small in diameter, and with no supplemental controls save the [AT] gearshift buttons, it's nicely uncluttered, as well. It's perfectly capable of communicating precise information about how much grip is available from the front, what the road surface is doing to the chassi, how much angle is dialed into the wheels, etc."
They said it had "superior steering" over the 330Ci.
Remember, this is a biased BMW source. I'd say that is high praise indeed!
Say what you will about their cars, but Lexus and Infiniti have worked hard to dominate the dealership ratings for nearly 15 consecutive years, by most sources. Their customer service is rarely second to anyone else in the car business.
Caddilac engineer said it's 0-60 would be 4.7 secs but tested by C&D 5.2 secs
CTS-V 3.6Litre engine 255hp
0-60 6.7 secs www4.foster.com
I give Cadillac a lot of credit for making exciting cars.
Beloved honda? I own a BMW and a Mazda.
you have to remember that Cadillac is, fairly successfully compared to say Lincoln, trying to shift their demographic to a more youthful group. Old ways are hard to change unfortunately.
That's like saying compared to Manson, John Wayne Gacey was sorta sane.
No matter what they're still American companies and I'll freely admit I'm biased. I will buy Japanese and German but it'd take something mindblowing to ever get me to buy American.
They said it had "superior steering" over the 330Ci.
Remember, this is a biased BMW source. I'd say that is high praise indeed!
Riez, are they buying my car for me? No. then why should I get something I find to offer numb steering? Using quotes from car magazines is pretty useless when it comes to a subjective thing like road feel.
blueguydotcom... The primary point of the quote is to show that most sources who have actually tested an IS300--including those not disposed to love it--have raved about its steering. Your counter assessment flies against the majority opinion.
C&D, 10/00: "surgically precise steering combines with the car's nimble disposition to provide all the moves you need"
Automobile, 6/00: "steering is correspondingly quick and accurate".
MT, 9/00: "its steering response so quick, precise, and communicative that it keeps up with the 328i Sport on sheer athleticism."
CR, 5/01: "The steering feels responsive".
Edmunds, 7/01: "razor-sharp steering".
C&D, 3/04: In 7-car comparison, IS300 steering rated a 9 out of 10, falling only behind the 325i's steering.
Just a sampling. Plenty more of same. I'll keep looking to see if I can find anyone who calls it "numb".
Wouldn't mind having a Sport Cross based just on looks. IMO it's the best looking car in their repertoire and one of the best looking cars period. Lack of AWD drive is a shame.
"No matter what they're still American companies and I'll freely admit I'm biased. I will buy Japanese and German but it'd take something mindblowing to ever get me to buy American." That speaks for itself.
As far as the IS300 vs. 3 series steering feel goes, I have another theory to throw out. Riding in the IS300, I feel very well insulated from road noise, wind noise, drivetrain vibration. Could all that sound deadening contribute to a less-connected feel? When you don't hear, or feel, the cracks in the road and your brain is used to doing so, it might be interpreting that as meaning Avalon-like handling.
Brian
I think everyone agrees that the BMW is a overpriced but everyone also seems to agree that it is a great car. I would have loved to have one but could not afford the extra money for the 330 (went with a CL-S) and the 325 was just too slow for me. Sadly i think BMW sells so much because so many people buy them for status and the more they raise the price the more people seem to want them.
Regarding the "same poor BMW reliability", ummm, yeah right. Hate to burst your bubble, however, all scientific and anecdotal evidence suggests that the Audi line is considerably worse. Contrast that with my personal experience of over five years of BMW driving and so far, I have had two burned out taillights. Now, I realize that the Lexus crowd would be aghast at how unreliable my cars have been, but personally, I can live with that. ;-)
As for what's a rip off, and what’s an insults one's intelligence, well, one could say that the only car that wasn't an insult would be a completely utilitarian car which will get one from point A to point B and nothing more.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I got a loaded A4 1.8T frontrack for just under $30K. It won't win any stoplight races with those 6 cyl engines, but it has plenty of power for my purposes. I'd harldy call that a ripoff.
Shipo,
I am not comparing BMW to Audi in terms of reliability. I am poiting out to Blue that reliabilitywise the 325 and 330 are the same car. BTW...I've had two Beemers in my family and they were always in shop with electrical glitches. Compared to their Japanese counterparts BMW reliability is poor. BTW you can get a sport suspension, power seats, and trip computer in a 325