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I own a HCH '05....commute 80 miles/day. I bought the HCH over a Prius for 2 reasons. The Prius was priced higher and in higher demand and less available to me. Even used Prius' were 23,000. I had 5 HCH to choose from at one dealership and they gave me a decent deal on the one I chose (5 spd). I also wanted a manual transmission - not avail from Toyota.
I get 44 MPG avg on my commute now...fill up every 6 days on a normal week of driving.
you: The new energy bill has, somehow, enabled the State of California to offer hybrid drivers the ability to use the car pool lane even if there's only one person in the car.
me: I just had a funny thought that that law actually is illogical if the government is legislating to save gasoline. The carpool lane might offer people the incentive to buy a hybrid. But most hybrids don't use any gas if stuck in traffic. You'd think we'd want to put those vehicles with the largest engines in the carpool lane, as a larger engine will use the most gas idling in traffic! You want the gas guzzlers to get where they're going as fast as possible, and shut them down.
What amazes me most is the award winning European Honda Diesel in CRV , Civic and Accord. In the US we waste all that weight and effort on a hybrid when Honda makes quiet fast and reliable diesels that have gotten 92 mpg in distance challenges.
U.K., May 6, 2004 – Honda’s new Accord 2.2 i-CTDi Sport has this week set no fewer than 19 world speed records and achieved 3.07 litres / 100 km (92 mpg) fuel economy to boot. British racing driver Robin Liddell and freelance journalist Iain Robertson were part of the European record-setting team
Even the heavier 4x4 CRV has a combined 42 mpg with the diesel, the accords are above 50 mpg combined and the Eurpean Accord is a TSX!
What is worse all the 1 Jan 06 tax incentives go to Hybrids, leaving the diesels with nothing.
Why not here? Our high sulfur fuel and EPA regulations and apparently quite a lobbying group sold on hybrids. Diesels are far less expensive to operate over time and initial cost is less . Europe is crowed and they are happy with the HOnda diesel why not in the United States?
Comparing Accords: Diesel, Hybrid and Gasoline 7 December 2004
After posting about the Honda clean diesel ad (earlier post), I decided to do some quick side-by-side comparisons using three models of the Honda Accord: the Accord Diesel featuring the new, clean 2.2 i-CTDi engine touted in the ad (picture at right), the new Accord Hybrid, and two gasoline sedans. The outcome: the Accord Diesel (using petroleum diesel) offers the lowest fuel consumption and the lowest CO2 emissions, even surpassing the Accord Hybrid.
In a sense, it’s not a fair comparison—the cars, even though they are of the same model family, target different consumers with different levels of performance and features. (Furthermore, the diesel isn’t offered in the US.) Honda opted to create a performance hybrid with its Accord, thereby somewhat reducing the fuel consumption and CO2 emissions benefits. Had the company implemented its IMA hybrid drive with a smaller, more efficient gasoline engine, the results would be much better.
Nevertheless, the comparison across different powertrains in the same model is interesting. The table below compares the Accord Hybrid, the Accord Diesel 2.2 i-CTDi Sport, the EX Sedan and the LX V-6.
Comparing the i-CTDi and the EX highlights some of the efficiency and benefits of the diesel platform. Although the gasoline engine is slightly larger, the diesel offers incrementally better acceleration (due to the greater low-rpm torque), 33% better fuel consumption and approximately 25% less CO2.
change soon as next year low sulfur fuel becomes available (mandated). Honda has claimed to have a US diesel in bound by 2007.
I know I will be torpedoed about this but the facts are clear, hybrids are an interesting way to go but why blow off diesel technology that speaks for itself?
Many reasons why the diesels will have a hard time in the USA:
1. perception - the last attempt at USA diesels in the 1970s and 1980s was a disaster, with terrible engines, filthy exhaust, and a huge overall failure. Also - everyone knows how sicekening the smell of diesel exhaust is.
2. clean diesel fuel will take a while to get ENTRENCHED here - none of the car companies are going to gamble with available diesel cars until the five "no diesel"states repeal that and ULSD is entrenched in the delivery aparatus in the USA, something that can take probably well into 2008 or 2009.
3. Diesel exhaust has messed up Europe - they have soot all over the place. Some towns have even banned diesel engine cars on certain days of the week to help clean the air.
So diesel is a good step, but not a perfect one. A Diesel/Electric hybrid 4-passenger car that makes 70+ MPG is my hope for 2009 or 2010.....
something that can take probably well into 2008 or 2009
Have you got some info on that. The mandate is for ULSD (less than 15 PPM) sulfur to be sold at all stations by September 2006. I don't think that mandate gave a 2 or 3 year window to implement.
The reason for the dirty exhaust in Europe is they also have had high sulfur diesel up until January 2005. Now theirs is mandated at 50 PPM sulfur and will go lower in a couple more years. Germany has had ultra low sulfur diesel for several years not sure about the other countries over there. Modern diesel engines just like gas engines have evolved to a much higher level since 1970. Gas engines are the ones that were killing us in the 1970s not the diesel engines. Leaded gas was much worse than the worst diesel we have in the USA today.
I know you are not interested in diesel becoming mainstream as it will take some of the wind out of the hybrid balloon. Look on the bright side. Honda has some great diesel engines now. Heck I would consider a diesel Honda.
"In 2006, the federal fuel specifications for diesel will make the fuel lower in sulfur content than gasoline. California truckers supported the ultra low sulfur diesel fuel federally and were expecting to end the state-only standard. CARB has recently made a policy decision that they will mandate a different formulation of diesel fuel for California in 2006. The fuel formulation is yet to be announced. "This is a bad trade when the state accepts the current 5% reduction in pollution estimated for diesel fuel and foregoes the 90% reduction from purchasing modern equipment," stated Williams. "Shouldn’t they have to prove that they can make a cleaner fuel before they adopt a new standard? Transportation funding is dwindling and the price of diesel keeps California truckers in older trucks, but why?"
"Such findings go a long way toward explaining why the U.S. EPA crafted a much-praised rule that imposes tough emission controls on new diesel engines and requires that cleaner-burning diesel fuel be brought to market by 2007. The new rules will reduce particulate and nitrogen oxide emissions from diesel engines by 98 percent from their 1988 levels."
"Heavy-Duty Engines and Vehicle Standards and Highway Diesel Sulfur Control Requirements This rule established a single comprehensive national control program that will regulate the heavy-duty vehicle and its fuel as a single system. The new sulfur standards for highway diesel fuel begin to take effect in 2006. The new emissions standards for heavy-duty vehicles begin to take effect in 2007. In January 2001 and in June 2004, EPA finalized the Clean Diesel Trucks and Buses Rule and the Clean Nonroad Diesel Rule, respectively, with more stringent standards for new diesel engines and fuels. The rules require the use of lower sulfur fuels beginning in 2006 for highway diesel fuel, and 2007 for nonroad diesel fuel. These fuels will enable the use of aftertreatment technologies for new diesel engines, which can reduce harmful emissions by 90 percent or more. Aftertreatment technologies will start phasing into the diesel sector beginning in 2007 for highway and 2011 for nonroad. These programs will yield enormous long-term benefits for public health and the environment."
Nothing I can find says or indicates that low or ultra low fuel at public stations will be "mandated USA-wide by 2006" Gary......I think by the time all the stations are in compliance and you CAN ONLY BUY low or ultra low diesel will be 2008 or 2009, based on how the mandates look right now....
Yes, Honda cannot make one move until the fuel is readily available at consistent quality. They would be made fools to bring the car before that plan is certain. The 92 mpg trick may have been an expert driver but if I could pull it off I would have one today. along with a CRV diesel. My fuel savings would be well over $150 per month or $1800 per year. It is a shame.
I will find the law for you. Here is the sign on the pump where I just filled my Passat today. BP has been selling this in CA for over a year. If it can be screwed up CARB can do it. As long as the head guy is in a hate relationship with diesel cars they will try to block whatever effort is made to improve the situation.
EPA today announced plans to issue a rule later this year that will take two actions. The first action will shift the retail compliance date from September 1 to October 15, 2006, to allow more time for terminals and retail outlets to comply with the 15 ppm ULSD standard.
"CARB does not yet KNOW what diesel formulation it will approve in 2006 !! From this story: "
CARB can make stricter rules, but must comply with Federal minimums. I actually expect maunfacturors to import diesels to the other 46 states, even if CARB states require more stringent rules. Those vehicles can be imported into CA at 7601 miles...
"1. perception - the last attempt at USA diesels in the 1970s and 1980s was a disaster, with terrible engines, filthy exhaust, and a huge overall failure. Also - everyone knows how sicekening the smell of diesel exhaust is.
2. clean diesel fuel will take a while to get ENTRENCHED here - none of the car companies are going to gamble with available diesel cars until the five "no diesel"states repeal that and ULSD is entrenched in the delivery aparatus in the USA, something that can take probably well into 2008 or 2009."
responses:
1. I am actually expecting Honda and other foreign manufacturors to produce diesels first. Don't forget that Mercedes diesel cars from 1978 - 1992 are legendary for reliability. That is the first thing I think of when I think of a diesel car.
2. Diesels are available now in non CARB states, and I expect that those states will get the higher MPG vehicles with modern diesel engines when the low sulfur diesel is widely available.
Around here in the New York Metropolitan Area, diesel fuel costs at least 12% to 15% more per gallon than regular gasoline. There is no possible way that it would pay to purchase a new diesel vehicle with that fuel price differential, especially when the new higher-priced low-sulphur diesel fuel hits the market.
"Around here in the New York Metropolitan Area, diesel fuel costs at least 12% to 15% more per gallon than regular gasoline. There is no possible way that it would pay to purchase a new diesel vehicle with that fuel price differential, especially when the new higher-priced low-sulphur diesel fuel hits the market."
It's about the same cost as premium here at local gas stations, not sure about truck stops. However, it is easier to refine, and if the market takes off, the price of fuel will probably fall, perhaps slowly.
quote Yerth10-"Honda is yet to realise it."-end quote
The have realized it - but they only have those in Europe. The USA market has still not completely BEYOND DOUBT accepted hatchbacks in huge numbers. It's getting better, but it's still not a slam dunk....
Could someone who is attending the Civic chat tonite please ask one of the Civic Team members to confirm that there will be no manual transmission engine for the 2006 US Civic Hybrid?
That rumour is being bandied around, but I see nothing from Honda anywhere that acutally says "No, we do not have a manual tranny engine and this is why..."
Midnightblue, unfortunately here in Canada the HC only sells with a worthless slushbox! You lose about 8% fuel efficiency and some performance with automatic. If the new HC has a manual tranny(unlikely in Canada)--I will consider a Honda hybrid product. If NOT then I will look elsewhere for a fuel efficient car with a stick!
Specs still show a manual option on the Civic Hybrid. I hope it deos offer a manual. The 2006 CHC with VCVT has EPA of 50/50.
The gear ratios have a much taller fifth than the ICE only 5-speed: Gear Ratios: 1st: 2.666, 2nd: 1.534, 3rd: 1.022, 4th: 0.721, 5th: 0.525, Reverse: 1.957, Final Drive: 4.437 . . . X
My estimates are 50/55 for the manual Civic Hybrid.
I'm not confident in that College Hills link, since I've read many times that the 2006 Civic Hybrid will only be equipped with a CVT, not an MTX (even as an option). I just came across this post this morning in another Edmunds forum:
The information there appears to be pretty authoritative, until we soon see the official Honda brochure. It clearly indicates that there will not be a MTX.
This forum is great. I have a few concerns regarding my future purchase of an 03 HCH. I negotiated a dealer down to $15,500, but I must purchase a 4yr extended warranty. Covering the car for another 4 yrs is very expensive, but what happens after the 7yr/100,000m warranty on hybrid components expires. Honda is not offering an extended warranty on the hybrid components. What are the owners on this forum going to do when their hybrid component warranty approaches expiration? Do you plan on keeping the car or selling it before the expiry? Do you think the market demand for hybrid mechanics will provide an inexpensive solution? Or do you think the HCH resell value will go well below non-hybrid Civics? I look forward to your replies. Thank you in advance!
The lack of a manual tranny in the hybrid civic makes it less compelling in comparison to a non-hybrid MT civic. A slushbox CVT inflicts gas inefficiency and it is a shame there is not a third pedal!!
It's hard to imagine, given the current gasoline situation, that used hybrids are going to lose value faster than non-hybrid Civics, especially given the glum predictions about the cost of gas continuing to be high. I suspect that we'll see more independent hybrid mechanics offering their services soon -- if there's a market for a service, it will get filled.
I bought an extended warrenty on my '03 HCH. It came in handy earlier this year when the EGR valve went south on me -- the repair didn't cost me a penny and more than paid for the cost of the extended warranty.
"It's hard to imagine, given the current gasoline situation, that used hybrids are going to lose value faster than non-hybrid Civics, especially given the glum predictions about the cost of gas continuing to be high."
Well, there are no concerns about long-term reliablitly for the ICE Civics, and (being a small economy car), they already get pretty good MPG. So there is less difference between the HCH and the ICE version. Add in the uncertainty of the hybrid components and there is the possibility of lower resale. Not the certainty, a possibility.
I am taking at least a $2000 risk, purchasing this car and extended warranty. But, this car will save me approximately $425.00 p/y if gas prices remain around $2.50. Additionally, I figure there will be more mechanics who will be trained in the Civic Hybrid Technology, providing a less expensive repair, after my 4 yr and 7yr warranty expires. My only worry is the Hybrid Battery cost!
"How much did you paid for your Honda Extended Warranty?"
We paid $985.00 in September of 2002, but the finance charges were reduced by a percentage to offset that (my husband had them on the run). The car itself cost $18,575.00.
Has anyone been able to find out the official MSRP for the 2006 Civic Hybrid? I thought Honda was supposed to introduce the Civic Hybrid for sale today, but I haven't been able to find any "official" pricing info so far.
I stopped by a dealership yesterday (the guy called to tell me they had 20 new Civics in and impolied that they were all hybrids, which if course they weren't). He implied that the MSRP would be around 21k but he couldn't or wouldn't be any more specific.
Plus you can get an EX for below MSRP and you may pay over MSRP for the hybrid so the price difference is much bigger than it looks at first glance. In 6 months you may be able to get an EX for a little over invoice and hybrids will still be at sticker and above.
And in six months the EX will still get 32 MPG and the Hybrid will get 50+ MPG and gas prices will still be going UP and the Hybrid will be much cleaner to the environment and the hybrid components will be covered by an 8 year warranty and.....and...and...
We don't know that the hybrid will even get close to 50MPG yet. The Prius and current HCH doesn't get the EPA rated mileage by most people, but most regular Civic drivers can get EPA mileage. Let's see what the first owners get.
...what if the HCH gets 5 MPG less than EPA, and the EX gets 2-3 more MPG than EPA ratings?
Furthermore, what if it pollutes the environment more to R & D and manufacture the HCH than it does the EX (Toyota has supposedly admitted that the environmental impact of creating and manufacturing the Prius exceed that of the Corolla, for example)?
AND, what if the ULEV EX burns nearly as clean as an AT-PZEV? An environmental organization (OK, I forgot which one because it was over a year ago) has said that if all cars and trucks just had an LEV rating, then automotive vehicles emissions would not even play a role in global warming. Their manufacture, however, would. In that sense, maybe we should all just buy used cars and save the environment by not encouraging more manufacturing?:)
Unless someone intentionally drives his or her civic with the gas pedal floored the car absolutely will achieve EPA figures. I speak from personal experience. I have driven my 2005 HCH 5-speed manual hard and achieved 47mpg for the entire tank. Driving around at a reasonable speed nets 51mpg on average. I have achieved an average of 50+mpg over the last 3,500 miles. The car comes with the tools to help a driver achieve high mileage. Just keep an eye on the real time mpg indicator and keep it between 40 and 60 mpg as often as is possible. It’s not hard to do.
I'm not sure about any other state but here in Connecticut there is no 6% sales tax on a hybrid vehicle. Add this savings to the Federal tax break and the annual fuel savings and there really is very small price difference between a loaded Civic EX plus sales tax and a HCH.
So, there is about $2790 MSRP difference between a base Hybrid and a EX sedan automatic and you give up the EX's moonroof and attractive, spoked rims in exchange for the Hybrid's automatic climate control and pie pan rims. To this, you need to add the dealer price markups to the Hybrid that could run into thousands of extra dollars.
The actual purchase price difference will expand ever greater as larger and larger discounts become available on the EX as supplies ramp up.
Looks like there will be dealer mark-up. After putting a $500 deposit down, and verbally agreeing on sticker price about 2 months ago, the sales associate calls today and tells me they'll be in the end of this month, but the manager has said there will be $1-2K mark-ups. I was concerned all along that would happen, but I won't do that, even though I could afford it.
I argued my case that we had an agreement prior to his announcement (prior to Katrina, too), so she's going to try to talk to the manager about it. If not, they will lose my business, even if I still buy a Honda. It's one thing about the ethics of price gouging, it's another to have an agreement and then breech it - its called business ethics! I feel like taking out an ad in the local newspaper telling my story and not to buy at their dealership. But first, I'll wait and see if I can get them to come around.
I have 3 dealerships within a half-hour of me, and they'll get my business, even if it's not for a HCH. I like the deals on the 05's, or perhaps I will get an EX Civic w/NAV, if I like it in the test drive. Otherwise, I liked the Accord LX MT a lot. It's still a ULEV, with 26/34 MPG.
Comments
I get 44 MPG avg on my commute now...fill up every 6 days on a normal week of driving.
me: I just had a funny thought that that law actually is illogical if the government is legislating to save gasoline.
The carpool lane might offer people the incentive to buy a hybrid. But most hybrids don't use any gas if stuck in traffic. You'd think we'd want to put those vehicles with the largest engines in the carpool lane, as a larger engine will use the most gas idling in traffic!
http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/?id=99
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004/12/comparing_accor.html
Honda Diesel Sets New World Records
U.K., May 6, 2004 – Honda’s new Accord 2.2 i-CTDi Sport has this week set no fewer than 19 world speed records and achieved 3.07 litres / 100 km (92 mpg) fuel economy to boot. British racing driver Robin Liddell and freelance journalist Iain Robertson were part of the European record-setting team
Even the heavier 4x4 CRV has a combined 42 mpg with the diesel, the accords are above 50 mpg combined and the Eurpean Accord is a TSX!
What is worse all the 1 Jan 06 tax incentives go to Hybrids, leaving the diesels with nothing.
Why not here? Our high sulfur fuel and EPA regulations and apparently quite a lobbying group sold on hybrids. Diesels are far less expensive to operate over time and initial cost is less . Europe is crowed and they are happy with the HOnda diesel why not in the United States?
Comparing Accords: Diesel, Hybrid and Gasoline
7 December 2004
After posting about the Honda clean diesel ad (earlier post), I decided to do some quick side-by-side comparisons using three models of the Honda Accord: the Accord Diesel featuring the new, clean 2.2 i-CTDi engine touted in the ad (picture at right), the new Accord Hybrid, and two gasoline sedans. The outcome: the Accord Diesel (using petroleum diesel) offers the lowest fuel consumption and the lowest CO2 emissions, even surpassing the Accord Hybrid.
In a sense, it’s not a fair comparison—the cars, even though they are of the same model family, target different consumers with different levels of performance and features. (Furthermore, the diesel isn’t offered in the US.) Honda opted to create a performance hybrid with its Accord, thereby somewhat reducing the fuel consumption and CO2 emissions benefits. Had the company implemented its IMA hybrid drive with a smaller, more efficient gasoline engine, the results would be much better.
Nevertheless, the comparison across different powertrains in the same model is interesting. The table below compares the Accord Hybrid, the Accord Diesel 2.2 i-CTDi Sport, the EX Sedan and the LX V-6.
Comparing the i-CTDi and the EX highlights some of the efficiency and benefits of the diesel platform. Although the gasoline engine is slightly larger, the diesel offers incrementally better acceleration (due to the greater low-rpm torque), 33% better fuel consumption and approximately 25% less CO2.
change soon as next year low sulfur fuel becomes available (mandated).
Honda has claimed to have a US diesel in bound by 2007.
I know I will be torpedoed about this but the facts are clear, hybrids are an interesting way to go but why blow off diesel technology that speaks for itself?
1. perception - the last attempt at USA diesels in the 1970s and 1980s was a disaster, with terrible engines, filthy exhaust, and a huge overall failure. Also - everyone knows how sicekening the smell of diesel exhaust is.
2. clean diesel fuel will take a while to get ENTRENCHED here - none of the car companies are going to gamble with available diesel cars until the five "no diesel"states repeal that and ULSD is entrenched in the delivery aparatus in the USA, something that can take probably well into 2008 or 2009.
3. Diesel exhaust has messed up Europe - they have soot all over the place. Some towns have even banned diesel engine cars on certain days of the week to help clean the air.
So diesel is a good step, but not a perfect one. A Diesel/Electric hybrid 4-passenger car that makes 70+ MPG is my hope for 2009 or 2010.....
Have you got some info on that. The mandate is for ULSD (less than 15 PPM) sulfur to be sold at all stations by September 2006. I don't think that mandate gave a 2 or 3 year window to implement.
The reason for the dirty exhaust in Europe is they also have had high sulfur diesel up until January 2005. Now theirs is mandated at 50 PPM sulfur and will go lower in a couple more years. Germany has had ultra low sulfur diesel for several years not sure about the other countries over there. Modern diesel engines just like gas engines have evolved to a much higher level since 1970. Gas engines are the ones that were killing us in the 1970s not the diesel engines. Leaded gas was much worse than the worst diesel we have in the USA today.
I know you are not interested in diesel becoming mainstream as it will take some of the wind out of the hybrid balloon. Look on the bright side. Honda has some great diesel engines now. Heck I would consider a diesel Honda.
http://www.aiada.org/article.asp?id=46642&cat=Government
"In 2006, the federal fuel specifications for diesel will make the fuel lower in sulfur content than gasoline. California truckers supported the ultra low sulfur diesel fuel federally and were expecting to end the state-only standard. CARB has recently made a policy decision that they will mandate a different formulation of diesel fuel for California in 2006. The fuel formulation is yet to be announced. "This is a bad trade when the state accepts the current 5% reduction in pollution estimated for diesel fuel and foregoes the 90% reduction from purchasing modern equipment," stated Williams. "Shouldn’t they have to prove that they can make a cleaner fuel before they adopt a new standard? Transportation funding is dwindling and the price of diesel keeps California truckers in older trucks, but why?"
And from this story:
http://news.kypost.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050722/NEWS02/507220364/1014
"Such findings go a long way toward explaining why the U.S. EPA crafted a much-praised rule that imposes tough emission controls on new diesel engines and requires that cleaner-burning diesel fuel be brought to market by 2007. The new rules will reduce particulate and nitrogen oxide emissions from diesel engines by 98 percent from their 1988 levels."
From the EPA website:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/diesel/diesel.htm#regs
"Heavy-Duty Engines and Vehicle Standards and Highway Diesel Sulfur Control Requirements This rule established a single comprehensive national control program that will regulate the heavy-duty vehicle and its fuel as a single system. The new sulfur standards for highway diesel fuel begin to take effect in 2006. The new emissions standards for heavy-duty vehicles begin to take effect in 2007. In January 2001 and in June 2004, EPA finalized the Clean Diesel Trucks and Buses Rule and the Clean Nonroad Diesel Rule, respectively, with more stringent standards for new diesel engines and fuels. The rules require the use of lower sulfur fuels beginning in 2006 for highway diesel fuel, and 2007 for nonroad diesel fuel. These fuels will enable the use of aftertreatment technologies for new diesel engines, which can reduce harmful emissions by 90 percent or more. Aftertreatment technologies will start phasing into the diesel sector beginning in 2007 for highway and 2011 for nonroad. These programs will yield enormous long-term benefits for public health and the environment."
Nothing I can find says or indicates that low or ultra low fuel at public stations will be "mandated USA-wide by 2006" Gary......I think by the time all the stations are in compliance and you CAN ONLY BUY low or ultra low diesel will be 2008 or 2009, based on how the mandates look right now....
The 92 mpg trick may have been an expert driver but if I could pull it off I would have one today. along with a CRV diesel. My fuel savings would be well over $150 per month or $1800 per year. It is a shame.
http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/b1ab9f485b098972852562e7004dc686/808f29e5be8242ea- 8525702e004fbfb3!OpenDocument
CARB can make stricter rules, but must comply with Federal minimums. I actually expect maunfacturors to import diesels to the other 46 states, even if CARB states require more stringent rules. Those vehicles can be imported into CA at 7601 miles...
2. clean diesel fuel will take a while to get ENTRENCHED here - none of the car companies are going to gamble with available diesel cars until the five "no diesel"states repeal that and ULSD is entrenched in the delivery aparatus in the USA, something that can take probably well into 2008 or 2009."
responses:
1. I am actually expecting Honda and other foreign manufacturors to produce diesels first. Don't forget that Mercedes diesel cars from 1978 - 1992 are legendary for reliability. That is the first thing I think of when I think of a diesel car.
2. Diesels are available now in non CARB states, and I expect that those states will get the higher MPG vehicles with modern diesel engines when the low sulfur diesel is widely available.
The hybrid concept makes much more sense here.
It's about the same cost as premium here at local gas stations, not sure about truck stops. However, it is easier to refine, and if the market takes off, the price of fuel will probably fall, perhaps slowly.
The last time I bought gas was August 7th, $2.379 at Sam's Club.....so far 512 miles on this tank, about 80 more before I need to fillup again...:D
It's All Good !!!
4-Door Sedan-Gasolene
2-Door Coupe
2-Door SI
4-Door Sedan-Hybrid
No idea about GX model.
I dont know whether the SI (160 hp) will be selling well with high gas prices.
Sad that 3 / 5 door version of Hybrid is not coming to US.
Expect Prius to rule the road.
99% of everyone who buys a 2006 Civic will be ecstatic about their car. That's all that matters - are you happy with your car?
Test Vehicle: 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid
Estimated Base Price: $21,500
Gasoline Engine Size and Type: 1.3-liter inline four with variable valve timing
Gasoline Engine Horsepower: 93 at 6,000 rpm
Gasoline Engine Torque: 89 lb.-ft. at 4,500 rpm
Electric Motor Size and Type: 70mm wide permanent magnet with 158-volt nickel metal hydride (Ni-MH) battery
Electric Motor Horsepower: 20 at 2,000 rpm
Electric Motor Torque: 76 lb.-ft. between 0 and 1,160 rpm
Combined Horsepower Rating: 110 at 6,000 rpm
Combined Torque Rating: 123 lb.-ft. between 1,000 and 2,500 rpm
Transmission: Continuously variable transmission (CVT)
Curb weight, lbs.: 2,875
Estimated EPA Fuel Economy (city/highway): 50/50 mpg
Observed Fuel Economy: 47.1 mpg
Length: 176.7 inches
Width: 69.0 inches
Wheelbase: 106.3 inches
Height: 56.3 inches
Leg room (front/rear): 42.2/34.6 inches
Head room (front/rear): 39.4/37.4 inches
Max. Seating Capacity: Five
Max. Cargo Volume: 10.4 cubic feet
Prius-I had 11 cu. ft. and Prius-II has 16 cu. ft.
Price is the only selling point.
After all, a 5 door hatch is a Superior in Design & Efficiency.
Honda is yet to realise it.
The have realized it - but they only have those in Europe. The USA market has still not completely BEYOND DOUBT accepted hatchbacks in huge numbers. It's getting better, but it's still not a slam dunk....
That rumour is being bandied around, but I see nothing from Honda anywhere that acutally says "No, we do not have a manual tranny engine and this is why..."
Thanks Edmundites !!!
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?DID=RSS&n=274&sid=274&article=9178
Midnightblue, unfortunately here in Canada the HC only sells with a worthless slushbox! You lose about 8% fuel efficiency and some performance with automatic. If the new HC has a manual tranny(unlikely in Canada)--I will consider a Honda hybrid product. If NOT then I will look elsewhere for a fuel efficient car with a stick!
From everything that I've read, the 2006 Civic Hybrid will NOT have a manual transmission. It will only come equipped with a CVT.
The gear ratios have a much taller fifth than the ICE only 5-speed:
Gear Ratios: 1st: 2.666, 2nd: 1.534, 3rd: 1.022, 4th: 0.721, 5th: 0.525, Reverse: 1.957, Final Drive: 4.437 . . . X
My estimates are 50/55 for the manual Civic Hybrid.
Thanks,
MidCow
The exact URL on the Civic Hybrid is :
http://www.collegehillshonda.com/artman/publish/article_337.shtml courtesy of Collge Hills Honda.
Cheers,
MidCow
I'm not confident in that College Hills link, since I've read many times that the 2006 Civic Hybrid will only be equipped with a CVT, not an MTX (even as an option). I just came across this post this morning in another Edmunds forum:
loudgizmo, "2006 Honda Civic / Civic Si" #1135, 5 Sep 2005 9:04 pm
It's a link to :
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/09/show_time_for_t.html#more
The information there appears to be pretty authoritative, until we soon see the official Honda brochure. It clearly indicates that there will not be a MTX.
Yes the more I read , i think you might be right no manual trans anymore for the Civic Hybrid. :sick: :sick: I just can't drive an auto!
Thanks for the link.
MidCow
Maybe you can mount a dummy pedal, with a nice stiff spring under it, to the left of the brake pedal. Just for old times' sake.
I bought an extended warrenty on my '03 HCH. It came in handy earlier this year when the EGR valve went south on me -- the repair didn't cost me a penny and more than paid for the cost of the extended warranty.
Well, there are no concerns about long-term reliablitly for the ICE Civics, and (being a small economy car), they already get pretty good MPG. So there is less difference between the HCH and the ICE version. Add in the uncertainty of the hybrid components and there is the possibility of lower resale. Not the certainty, a possibility.
We paid $985.00 in September of 2002, but the finance charges were reduced by a percentage to offset that (my husband had them on the run). The car itself cost $18,575.00.
MC in VA
There are only 2 options: $21, 850 1.3L AT, or $23, 350 1.3L AT w/NAV
About what we expected, I guess. Not much more than the EX, but you can get an EX AT w/NAV for less than a HCH without. Hmmmmmm....
In 6 months you may be able to get an EX for a little over invoice and hybrids will still be at sticker and above.
HHHMMMMMMMMMMMMM.......................
The Prius and current HCH doesn't get the EPA rated mileage by most people, but most regular Civic drivers can get EPA mileage.
Let's see what the first owners get.
Furthermore, what if it pollutes the environment more to R & D and manufacture the HCH than it does the EX (Toyota has supposedly admitted that the environmental impact of creating and manufacturing the Prius exceed that of the Corolla, for example)?
AND, what if the ULEV EX burns nearly as clean as an AT-PZEV? An environmental organization (OK, I forgot which one because it was over a year ago) has said that if all cars and trucks just had an LEV rating, then automotive vehicles emissions would not even play a role in global warming. Their manufacture, however, would. In that sense, maybe we should all just buy used cars and save the environment by not encouraging more manufacturing?:)
Seriously, what were they thinking with blue interior? I think my white '92 Accord may have been the last Honda that had blue interior.
Interesting.
absolutely will achieve EPA figures.
I speak from personal experience. I have driven my 2005 HCH 5-speed manual hard and achieved 47mpg for the entire tank. Driving around at a reasonable speed nets 51mpg on average. I have achieved an average of 50+mpg over the last 3,500 miles.
The car comes with the tools to help a driver achieve high mileage. Just keep an eye on the real time mpg indicator and keep it between 40 and 60 mpg as often as is possible. It’s not hard to do.
The actual purchase price difference will expand ever greater as larger and larger discounts become available on the EX as supplies ramp up.
I argued my case that we had an agreement prior to his announcement (prior to Katrina, too), so she's going to try to talk to the manager about it. If not, they will lose my business, even if I still buy a Honda. It's one thing about the ethics of price gouging, it's another to have an agreement and then breech it - its called business ethics! I feel like taking out an ad in the local newspaper telling my story and not to buy at their dealership. But first, I'll wait and see if I can get them to come around.
I have 3 dealerships within a half-hour of me, and they'll get my business, even if it's not for a HCH. I like the deals on the 05's, or perhaps I will get an EX Civic w/NAV, if I like it in the test drive. Otherwise, I liked the Accord LX MT a lot. It's still a ULEV, with 26/34 MPG.
Why did you do that?