Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!
Options
BMW 5-Series Wagon 2004 Redesign
This discussion has been closed.
Popular New Cars
Popular Used Sedans
Popular Used SUVs
Popular Used Pickup Trucks
Popular Used Hatchbacks
Popular Used Minivans
Popular Used Coupes
Popular Used Wagons
Comments
They weren't to be driven until tomorrow, but were in the prep area.
A grey and a blue.
The car looks pretty good. With the backend and tailights being my least favorite.
It has a beefier, more muscular and purposeful look.
I think the car looks more expensive too.
I liked the interior.
I still can't get used to the way BMW grains it's leather. It looks almost fake.
The interior seems a little roomier, but not overwhelmingly so -- just enough to take away a slightly cramped feeling I always got from the E39. I noticed it especially in the back seat. I sat in an E39 just to check the difference.
The blue one had the sport package and stickered at $52,000. The gray one did not have the sport package, but also stickered at $52,000 for other reasons.
I'm going back for a test drive in a few days. The catalog for this car, if you don't have one yet, is quite amazing -- 90 pages!
1 of the 2 cars i saw was also in blue and had the same MSRP as the one you saw.
So they must be sending all the dealerships a blue one and a grey one.
If down the road I decide I can't do without the BMW ride, it will be a 6 (big compromise) or M5 if it somehow comes out tweaked for the better. The 05 3 is also a heartbreak.
The details of the 6 are horrible but the overall shape is nice. The back looks like some fat ol' rube took his sausage finger and swiped some cream from the birthday cake.
I believe this is an interim period and BMW will be sorting out styling issues for the next era. Look for Ford, Audi and Nissan to have styling influence on the entire auto market. BMW was never an innovator in this area.
designman - I think you're right that this is a transitional design phase, but the 5-series is going to save BMW and Bangle's legacy if it's as successful as it seems it will be (taking into consideration a likely weak economy for several years). After all, the 5-series is BMW's bread and butter. Basically, BMW was getting a little stodgy (I'm no fan of the 70's-era boxy styling of the E39), and they're now shaking things up to capture the attention of many former Japanese luxury car buyers, who tend to have more avant garde dispositions. Seems like a cool strategy...I hope BMW succeeds, because as we've talking about before, BMW provides the public with unparalleled driver's cars.
They always looked different before. especially from the side.
It might hurt 7 series sales because now they won't look special enough to justify the price difference.
Feels like a BMW without active steering.
“High rollers are using their corporate BMW contacts to get them cars as we speak...the bad news is BMWUSA is so backed up with orders, even the rollers aren’t getting cars...Even when they’re going right to Purves! And, if you think you’re going to get a good discount on this car for the first six months or so, you’re dreaming...there is a huge waiting list for the car.”
Now, the following is part of dialogue I had with a salesman at a BMW dealer in the metro NY area this past week when I called to check on the arrival of E60:
ME: When are you expecting the first shipment after testers?
SALESMAN: mid-October
ME: How many will be coming in the first shipment?
SALESMAN: 20
ME: Have they all been pre-sold?
SALESMAN: No, there are four available.
ME: You mean to tell me I can have the 2004 530 in about three weeks?
SALESMAN: That’s right.
______
Read into it as you’d like, but I can’t help but wonder. Was the availability of the four new 530s an anomaly? Are they not really available... perhaps the salesman is just trying to get a deposit unscrupulously? Or is autospies FOS?
Finally, if the new 5 is so hot as autospies claim, why is there a dearth of buyer experiences in these BMW threads? Haven’t heard many claiming their intentions to buy one. Has anyone around here ordered one in advance? The buyers around here are probably, for the most part, a segmented group who are pretty savvy and wisely cautious in their spending... not the types to squander money in a must-have frenzy. However, these forums are accessible to the world and this subject is not exactly esoteric.
I’m scratching my head a bit here.
I predict that E60 sales will be strong and that "sport pack" sales will go down as a percentage. For me? I really don't know. Where do I turn? Lexus? Pleeeeeze. Jag? I don't think so. Audi? Well, I don't really need 4WD and I'm NOT getting a FWD. Merc? The manual transmission train doesn't stop here very often. Suby or Mitsu rally cars with boy racer treatment? I do like some things here, but I'm 55 and that's just not going to happen.
OK. Back to reality. Maybe the refresh will happen in '07 instread of '08. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Re: Basically, BMW was getting a little stodgy (I'm no fan of the 70's-era boxy styling of the E39) Did you mean the E28? I wouldn't call the E39 "boxy"!
Happy Motoring,
Jack
I look at the cars, not the marques. Since I drive cars, not marques. Guess what you get depends on what you want and why you want it. Some people have to have a BMW or MB. Some won't consider a particular marque. I've never understood that thinking. If a particular car meets your needs and price range, does the marque matter?
I don't normally look for a car by exterior size, either. Many large cars are inefficient with interior and trunk space while many smaller cars are very efficient inside.
And if you want manual transmission (which I wholly concur with), choices are limited. Take Jaguar. MY04 S-type has limited availability, by special order only. That really leaves only X-type. I'm surprised you aren't more favorable to Audi's high performance line (e.g., S4). Pricey, but they do perform.
MB and BMW seem to be emphasizing gadgets and/or styling. I wish they would worry more about driving pleasure and reliability.
Friend of mine swears by his Subaru WRX. For the money, it is an awful lot of fun car. Don't sell it or the Mitsu short. They are sophisticated driving machines that can outperform cars at nearly twice their price.
Actually, BMW has had this marketing tendency for some time. The current 3-series comes available with sport suspension packages, with the exception of the 330ci and M3. A few years ago, BMW lightened up the 3-series steering and later restored most of the original weighting, as I'm sure a BMW fan such as you is well aware.
There is no doubt that the E60 in non-sport mode is a true sports sedan, and maintains its lead over Lexus, Acura, etc. I don't know how you can equate Bangle's edgy styling with luxury. I don't follow you there. If anything, his styling is a little punk rocker, which I would agree is not where BMW should be aiming. BMW should have evolved instead of mocked its former designs. But styling aside, BMW is only creating more distance from the competition in the mid-sized driver's sedan category.
"Re: Basically, BMW was getting a little stodgy (I'm no fan of the 70's-era boxy styling of the E39) Did you mean the E28? I wouldn't call the E39 "boxy"!"
Yes, the E39. It's too big and boxy for my tastes. That's my opinion.
designman - I don't know whether autospies is FOS. Could be. It's an odd site, but they seem to dish it out to all carmakers, including BMW. Could be that the Bimmer is selling well in more avante garde markets, like Florida and California, and getting snubbed in its traditional northeast base. I have no idea. I suspect that's what will happen, though. It'll keep most of its enthusiast drivers, add some Japanese luxury import drivers, and lose its bastion of people who buy it for prestige and conservative styling (people who would choose between the 5-series against a Mercedes or maybe a Jaguar).
I too got a look at the new five today. The BMW dealer here (Bill Jacobs Napeville, IL) has but one on the lot. Kinda loud blue color with beige interior. It's not nearly as bad as the 7-Series, as that kicker of a trunklid is more intergrated on the 5. The interior is very different and forever erases the cockpit look (and probably feel) of previous 5-Series BMWs. Styling is clearly more substantial than before, especially in the rear which is kinda hefty in the hip area. For some reason though I think the car will be a runaway hit.
M
Just my .02
One thing I noticed that I don't like on the new is the crease that runs from the top of the door and fender.
It looks like a gunwale on a boat.
Interestingly, Bangle spent a lot of time talking about how cars used to look like boats and it wasn't until the 60's that it changed.
Looks like it is back again.
I didn't make myself clear. I should have said.. "The offerings from X, Y and Z don't appeal to me. It has nothing to do with brand. I just know that most of the cars I ride or drive don't appeal to me. 3s and 5s with sport pack are pretty decent to me. I have a 3 year old and a 6 year old, so I'm going to have a 4 door with decent room. At 55 years of age, the "boy racer" and "cladding laden" type of cars hold no interest to me. The "quite, sterile" cars have little appeal. Wood and "glove soft" leather doesn't make it handle any better. I've heard many complain about the "hard" leather on BMWs. Well, the 86 528e I just sold have hard, thick leather that literally looked like new when 17 years old. Well, the 5 has terrible cupholders they say. OK, you gonna drink or drive? I don't need a 16 function computer, GPS, navigation, DVD, etc, etc, etc, ad infinitum. I want a stout engine, big brakes, manual transmission, bolstered seats and a suspension that hangs onto the road like a 6 month old clings to a pacifier at bed time. Oh, and I don't need that dee-ess-see think that I manually have to turn off every time I jump in the car. Give me a back seat that a normal adult can take a 100 mile trip in without complaining, a trunk that can hold some luggage and I'm good to go. And while they're at it, a little side protection from careless folk's doors would be nice because I drive this car: to work, to play, to the store and all that.
Now I'll agree that this is the "good old days" of cars. Many fine entries. I just think most go too far to luxury and too little on "driving". Hey, I realize that luxury sells a lot of cars. So make 'em. Just keep a real "sport" model for old guys like me that aren't trying to impress anyone with a nameplate, whose rear end doesn't care about "soft" leather as they search for the apex, and aren't drinking capa what ever as they savor every switchback on a jaunt in the mountains.
/rant
Long live sport sedans,
Jack
You want a real sleeper? The Forester XT has the same semi-closed deck block and forged pistions, de-tuned to 210hp, but on the dyno they are producing more HP than the WRX (227), so I'd say it's closer to 240, at least. Torque is strong, too.
The XT and the upcoming Vue Redline might even compete with the X3, at least for some shoppers.
-juice
My thoughts: From a driver's point of view, the seating felt very nice. The steering position and pedal positions were very comfortable for me. The automatic shifter felt fine, though I'd like to see a manual and get a chance to drive it with the SP.
The center console is interesting with 3 areas for storage, though my cell phone will go in there perfectly. Side storage seems adequate for my needs.
The dash - I miss the cockpit feel of the previous generation 5 (and current 3). But I love the Z4's dash, and can see the similarity in theme, and have no major complaints. I just felt more snug with the older dash layout.
I like the dial controls for the climate controls.
The iDrive - I want to play with it more to see what it can do and how intuitive it is. Will it be voice activated at some point? If so, great. But I think I'll end up putting my spare glasses on the ledge in front of it. 8)
The back seat - WAY comfortable for me. I'm 5'11" with long legs and I was able to sit back there easily with the front seat all the way back and not bump the seat. Yes, getting my feet out was interesting, but once in, no problem. They feel very supportive and comfortable. The center console for the rear has cupholders and I like the vents in the rear of the center console for the back passengers. The door handles inside would look nicer if they were covered in the same wood trim material as the rest of the dash was (this one had the poplar wood trim). Head room was more than enough for me with about 3" above my head while sitting in the back seat.
Truck space looked very spacious and looks like it could hold quite a bit. The tool kit also contained a first aid kit. Is this now standard on US spec 5's?
The wheels - okay BMW. We need some more options besides what you started with here.
Overall styling - the sides look a little big, but the car has a very agressive, hunkered down look that really appeals to me. From head on, this car has a sinister look about it. Guess that is why people are calling the lights devil eyes.
The back end didn't look bad to me, but it didn't really stand out either. I can think of several cars that have similar tails, but to me it was just clean, but nothing spectacular. Nothing to really make me wretch or knock me off my feet.
Now to test the SP and the active steering and roll stabilization.
Just my .02 worth. Just keep in mind, styling is very subjective. How would you guys rate the 5 styling to the Lincoln LS?
-Paul
-juice
ES330 = $34,980
G35 = $34,095
TL = $33,195
TL will be at $33,000 for a while, while the ES330 and the G35 can be had for about $32,000. Whatever your choice, I feel that all of these are fantastic deals. Just four or five years ago, you had to pay $50,000 to get a car with the features and performance of these cars.
For some cars, such as the 2004 530i, I guess you still pay $50,000. Configuring the 530i as close as possible to a base TL, the MSRP is $50,220. To be fair, the 530i has more standard features and a better combination of sport and luxury (good quality interior with RWD) than the TL, G35 or ES330, but I just don't think it's worth the extra $17,000.
I believe the LS clearly influenced the ugly concave details on the beltline and bonnet of the new 5. The LS is not as egregious because they didn’t exaggerate it. Where E60 fails is not only the unappealing proportions and details, but the fact that the details scream for attention.
Good design, WHETHER CONSERVATIVE OR EXTREME, must have a balance of details. They can work in unison, harmony or contrast, but no one aspect should upstage the total look.
The details of E60 do not serve the total look. They are bold and work independently of each other, like a package of random unassembled parts.
The eye lashes are far too "Dame Edna" for me, Autoweek went as far as posting a "Seperated at Birth?" photo of the two side-by-side in their BWTM section (FWIW I called it first, right here in this topic).
I don't find it particularly flattering to be compared to a transvestite in the top weekly enthusiast publication.
-juice
I think that you've encapsulated a "feeling" many people, including myself have had regarding the E60 design. The eye doesn't take in the car as a whole but tends to pick out specific details or apparent discontinuities.
I've just tested this with an E class MB and my eye took in the overall shape first then started to examine the details. With the E60 exactly the reverse is true. Very interesting.
It is fine not to like a certain design language, it is something else to use false information for the arguments' sake. Jeez.
I forgive both of you for your self-righteousness.
I saw the 2004 530i in person for the first time this past saturday. I flat out do not like the exterior, not so much because it is ugly but because I found it bland and not very distinctive. From the side it looked like a Camry or an Altima. Nothing about the way the car looked moved me and for 50k I want to be moved. I want to walk out of my house everyday and say "man, what a nice car" something I do everyday when I see my 2003 530i.
As too whether or not the car will be successful my guess would be that it probably will be. There were several people at the dealership who seemed genuinely excited about the car and were impressed with the new styling.
When I see the new 5's taillights, I see resemblance to the Kia Rio and Toyota Echo. I'm sure Kia and Toyota are flattered, but BMW probably isn't.
I really think that Volvo, Mercedes, and Audi had styling nailed down pat. BMW is going through a bad phase and once Bangle finally gets fired I'm sure they'll bounce back.
-juice
It looks incredible in this much more desireable color combination than the blue with beige and the MSRP is right at 50 even.
I read in automotive news that the big three auto makers current average residual on a three year old car is 39%. OUCH!!! Like the looks of the car or not, the 'bimmers hold their value and market forces are a great telling sign of the quality of the car. This edgey look is just perfect for BMW. We do want to alienate certain segments of the market. Exclusivity evokes passion nothing like you'll find in a KIA, Toyota, etc....
Take a real good look at those taillights, the headlights. The bold, powerful tall stance is strong and athletic. KEEP LOOKING!
Still, to claim that BMWs are influenced by Pontiacs and the 90s Taurus, hmmm.... it's mildly amusing.
You mention exclusivity evoking passion. Exclusivity doesn't evoke passion, a great car does. Ergonomic and dynamic brilliance in the E60 won't get a chance to evoke any passion if potential buyers can't get past the disjointed looks.
We can all agree that the E39 is a classic and attacted many loyal driving enthusiasts.
I recall being here before. Let me explain. I've owned Acura Legends. Had a 91 and put 99k on it. Great highway cruiser for a FWD car. I traded on a 94 Legend. Again, great car. Well, in 97, I started looking. No more Legend. We now have the RL. The RL was bigger and better in every quantifiable way. But, what a dissapointment. Now, don't get me wrong. The RL is a good car. I recommend them often. Especially used ones. Check out their resale. Nothing like the Legend resale. The Legend nailed it. Now it is a FWD car, but other than that, it was spot on. After putting 150k+ on 2 of them, I don't know what I would suggest as an improvement.
My E39 has that same "right fell" just as my Legends did. The Legends and E39s are so desirable. The RL is not, although it is a good car.
Will the E60 be in the E39/Legend class in seven years, or will it be another RL?
Oh, yea, my main point is this: The average Legend buyer and the average RL buyer are different. A little overlap, but very different on the whole. Legend buyers cross shopped E34s and E39s. RL buyers cross shop Lexus LS400/430s.
Hey, just one guy's view,
Jack
Also, I’m wondering if the luxury-car status factor is limiting your ability to be objective. Consider form vs function and if you can’t separate the two, there’s no use discussing styling with you.
BMW is a lot of things but fashion leader it is not. I have one because it is the best driving, best engineered sedan wrapped in what I consider to be a conservative Brooks Brothers cloak. I waited a year for the new 5 and like many others was let down because the form has changed radically instead of evolving gracefully. I wonder what would happen to Brooks if they suddenly tried their hand at trend-setting Italian fashion, then tried to pawn it off as being original.
As I have said before, if I am wrong in my assessment of BMW’s fashion gambit, I will admit it when that time comes, if it comes. In the meantime, look around you--the BMW cloaks of recent years are far from original.
Joatmon... good introspective post!