I agree with you that for the price of a Studebaker Lark, you could buy a full-size Chevy or Ford. I had an Uncle from the non-Studebaker employee side of the family who often mentioned that he got his full-size 1964 Chevrolet Biscayne with a radio and sun visors on both sides for a lower price than the 1960 Lark that he bought for my Aunt (which had no radio and only one sun visor on the driver's side). Except for the automatic transmission, the Lark was as basic as they came.
Before 1959, full size Studebakers could have been priced at $300 below Chevrolet if GM built them, but they sold at Buick prices. The higher price of Studebakers caused lower sales because GM and Ford gave the buyer more car for the money. The most costly component of building a car is the labor cost. Mass production is important too, but South Bend main could build 80 Larks per hour, which was twice as many as they could sell.
This week Time Magazine has a special article on the American Dream and it states that the UAW is making concessions to permit new employees outside of Detroit to be paid $14 per hour BUT GM plants in Mexico only pay $7.00 per hour. The South Bend UAW would not give Studebaker any meaningful concessions like that.
Now, nearly 50 years later, few cars are actually built in Detroit any more. If cars could be built profitably in Detroit, the majority of American cars would still be built there. This situation cannot be blamed on management incompetence alone because profitable, well-run companies avoid that place too.
Studebaker had a big influence on automotive design and style. In 1947 they had big curved glass windows and full-width bodies without separate fenders (as in the VW beetle). The other auto makers followed a few years later. In 1953, they were low and long with very little chrome. The other auto makers followed about seven years later. In 1959, the tail fins on US cars were the largest ever, but the Studebaker Lark got rid of fins that year (except for the Hawk). The Plymouth Valiant looked like a twin brother.
The Avanti really was ahead of its time. It had no grille in the front, no chrome (except for vehicle identification and bumpers) and tail lights blended into the body. Many cars have those features now. Studebaker based the Avanti on the Lark convertible frame, Ford based the Mustang on the Falcon platform. . .more than a year and one half after the Avanti was introduced.
Try to pick another US auto maker that was a few years ahead of the rest of the pack during the 20 years after World War II. Nobody copied the Nash style, but did copy the size of the Nash Rambler which later became the Rambler American.
The '58 T-Bird definitely tilted to the luxury market, but the Hawk didn't, so maybe they are the same tree, but not the same branch, we could say
Obviously, styling is subjective, but I was not a big fan of '58-63 T-Birds. To me, Ford went to great length to make them look like 'birds'. I think the Golden Hawk looked better, and my guess is that, hardtop for hardtop, condition-for-condition, a Golden Hawk and a '58-60 T-Bird, anyway, will show the Golden Hawk selling for more. Don't care what the value guides say, but I bet eBay results would prove that.
I cannot think of a single 4-passenger car that came out in 1956--other than the Hawk and the $10K Mark II Continental--that had long hood, short deck styling. Hell, as late as '64, GM cars had short hood, long deck styling! The Hawk was absolutely innovative in that respect. Look at some old car mags...the Hawks always garnered good reviews.
I think Stude did more, with less, than AMC did. By '64 you could get Studes with blowers, 3-speed autos that could be shifted manually through three gears, disc brakes, full gauges (not put on top or on side of a steering wheel, either), 4-speeds, inside hood releases, dual master cylinders on drum brake cars, reclining seats, sunroofs, sliding roof wagons, Diesel medium duty trucks, pickups with 5-speeds and sliding rear windows....try finding any other manufacturer that offered all these at that time.
I'm in a hotel now and don't have my source documents near, but Studebaker designed, in conjunction with Borg-Warner, their own "Automatic Drive" which debuted in 1950, only one year after Packard's Ultramatic. It had a lockup torque converter and Ford wanted to buy it from Studebaker...this is widely reported. Sadly, Studebaker didn't sell it and later couldn't resist the urge to buy more basic Borg-Warners 'off the rack'. Of course, Stude had a sturdy OHV V8 in '51, four years before Chevy and Packard.
And if you're not a muscle car buff or Stude buff, one may not know that Stude R-3's are routinely spanking Big Three muscle cars of way-larger displacement at the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drags in Stanton, MI, year in, year out. At least one Big Three musclecar owner has actually pulled his car out of running against an R3 Stude, for fear of actually losing to a Stude!
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Just recently saw a Sunbeam Tiger at the local Starbucks. Must have been a visitor because I've never seen it B4 or since. Pristine condition in dark brown. Didn't get the chance to meet or talk to the owner.
I think AMC made their money on economy cars. Unfortunately, as the Big 3 put out successful intermediates Rambler's days became numbered.
My impression of Studebaker was an extremely militant and uncooperative UAW combined with management that was probably even worse than some of GM's leadership. The only thing that kept them going was very good product designers (and IMHO Loewy took far more credit than deserved from the other stylists for these good designs).
As for Packard, I think their downfall came about because they were never able to make the transition starting postwar when the luxury segment expanded in volume due to less premium pricing.
Exactly. There were so many complex forces working on the American auto industry that really, the "Little Three" were doomed coming out of the gate in 1946.
Bottom line is---it took massive capital to compete in the postwar auto industry, and if your company did not have the dollars to refresh, restyle and mass produce at a frenetic pace, you were going to fail. Ask Mr. Kaiser about that and he was no fool.
II could see postwar Studebaker design as "period-interesting" but not influential to any great degree IMO. I look at the books of fossils but I don't see any Studebaker genes spread anywhere in the50s 60s or 70s and beyond. it's just not there. It's hard to build a mythology and a heritage around Studebakers, Nashes, Kaisers. Even Hudson is sexier today, because of its racing successes I guess and Packard, of course, because of its prewar reputation.
The "icons" of the 50s---we could all name them-----T-Bird, Corvette, '55-57 Chevy, 59 Cadillac.
Cars like Avanti are curiosities today at best, and even today, not worth the cost of a modern restoration. This doesn't speak to the merits of the car, but rather to the general lack of influence on future design, and the inability to create a mythology about itself, through whatever---movies, racing accomplishments in NASCAR (Studebaker did race a little in NASCAR, but with Pontiac engines!) , or the public's fond memories. It's just a sideline to the Big Show that was the Big Three.
To put it another way, if Studebaker or Kaiser or Packard or Nash never existed after 1945, the course of American car design would have been pretty much the same I think. However, we would still have needed the Jeep!
Did Stude happen to have a connection to Borg-Warner? As a coincidence, the first Mercedes automatic was also a B-W unit. I don't know if it was particularly good unit though, within a few years MB had their own in-house unit, a durable but bizarre and unrefined box with no torque converter,
REgarding the demise of Detroit: it is sad what has happened to this once-bustling city-but consider just how poor the city government was.... Back in the 1980's, GM wanted to build a new plant in Detroit-the permits and approvals took years! Now the city is dying-and yes, the transpalnts (Honda, Nissan, Toyota, Hyundai) would never locate a new plant in Detroit-they don't want the UAW.
Admittedly, it's an R3 and has provenance from being the President of Studebaker's personal car, but I'm not sure how much that means to anybody outside of diehard Studebaker circles.
Excluding Corvettes and Hemis of course, I'm not sure how many domestic, closed production cars would have brought this kind of money.
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I don't know the answer to your first question, regarding Studebaker and Borg Warner. One of the messages earlier mentioned that Studebaker and BW developed Studebaker's automatic transmission together. The details of that collaboration would be interesting. I don't recall that Studebaker had a financial interest in BW, though. Isn't BW also headquartered in South Bend?
Regarding why MB chose a BW automatic, my guess is that BW was a reputable, independent vendor of reliable automatics at a time when the only other viable choice would have been to source an automatic from one of the Big Three. Since Europeans were always interested in fuel efficiency and maximum performance from relatively small displacement engines, more than cost, it was logical that Mercedes would prefer its 4-speed over the BW sourced 3-speed. As we've discussed before, Hydra-Matic provided a model for just the transmission that Mercedes may have wanted at the time. Whether MB used that model, or reinvented the wheel, is a question we never answered.
I know Studebaker didn't have a financial interest in B-W, or vice-versa, but I have always read that the engineering of the "Automatic Drive" for 1950 was a collaborative effort. B-W also made automatics for Fords and others.
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"Excluding Corvettes and Hemis of course, I'm not sure how many domestic, closed production cars would have brought this kind of money."
But the market does not exclude any Detroit icons which come across the same auction block as any given Studebaker-including the one Avanti which you linked.
I mean your R3 with provenance from the Studebaker prez is judged by the same bidders setting the value of Thunderbolt Fairlanes, Super Duty LeMans and Catalinas (with aluminum front end instead of Avanti fiberglass), and all manner of big block Vettes and Hemi Cudas, Superbirds, and the like.
And results show that Big 3 Detroit consistently brings stronger money than Studebakers. And for sheer weirdness and anti-hero worship nothing is likely to torpedo the Tucker. (Oh that was bad.)
You may not think it's a fair comparison but can anyone show a pattern of Studebaker outperforming Big 3 Detroit at auction now or in the market place 50 years ago? As pointed out somewhere in this topic, Jeep is the only thing we would have dearly missed if GM, Ford, and Chrysler had been the only post war domestic car makers.
A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing.
All I'm saying is, there's a lot of "conventional wisdom" out there in regards to Studebaker (the '56 GH was nose-heavy compared to the '57; they bring less as a collectible car than others, etc.) that simply isn't factual when you look hard...especially prices performance-model Studes have been bringing prior to this current economic downturn...like $25K supercharged Larks, for instance. Not unusual. Are there Chevy II closed-models from the early '60's selling for that? Not that I've seen.
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A $75K Avanti? Well the rarity of the engine and the provenance was ALL the money. C'mon, let's not call it typical.
An Avanti today is a hard sell at $20,000 and is really more like a $15,000 car all day long. A shabby one is not even worth restoring. Fair? No, the market isn't supposed to work on fairness, or merit, but on the formula of supply and demand.
At $15K-$20K, all the people who want Avantis have them already. That's how it works, be it Studebakere, Hemis, '57 Chevys, you name it.
The "market" is where most of the sales are. In any large number of cars sales, we will always have Elvis' Cadillac as one extreme and the widow who sells one for $500 because she's blind and uninformed. Neither is "the market", right?
Part of the "market wisdom" is, no offense intended, that devoted Studebaker collectors (and some other marques) are considered to be very reluctant to spend large sums of money themselves, much less have others people spend it.
Here's a beautiful Avanti, a 4-speed no less. I think you could offer $20K for it and get it.
There really are no 50s and 60s independents that can bring GM/Ford and Mopar money on a regular basis. This makes market sense since again, supply and demand dictates.
So really, Hawks and Avantis are a good buy "for the money", if you buy them right and in great condition. Unlike a Chevy, a Stude or Nash or Hudson or Packard does not have huge aftermarket support, so restorations are difficult and expensive in comparison.
My 1955 Commander has the Studebaker-Borg Warner automatic three speed transmission set up to start in first gear instead of second. It makes the car much quicker and there is less strain on the torque converter. The guy who fixed it for me also does a good business repairing the same transmissions for Jaguar and Mercedes Benz because the transmission was built in England for some years after Studebaker quit using it after the 1955 model year. The direct drive in third gear is good for fuel economy It is superior to the Ford- BW unit except for the price. Studebaker should have shared it with Ford when Ford asked in 1950.
I do not believe that Studebaker had a financial connection to Borg Warner or that Borg Warner was located in South Bend. Bendix was located in South Bend and had more employees than Studebaker when Studebaker closed. Bendix did a lot of business with Studebaker including supplying the hyro-vac power brake units and the disc brakes for the Avanti. Bendix ended up with the old Studebaker proving grounds which is now known as Bendix Woods County Park. If you cllick on the link of this page you can see that the trees still spell the word STUDEBAKER from above.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bendix_Woods
The English built BW was, I believe, called the BW 66. It has a reputation in the U.S. as a pile of junk, but in the UK it is regarded much more highly. I suspect this is partly due to the Brits ability to take care of their Jaguars better than Americans did.
I always regarded BW's transmissions of that era as decent but clunky to drive. This has been my experience with Studes, Jag XJ 6s (early ones) and Volvos. No real tranmission "trouble" but they seemed very unsophisticated. The GM transmissions and the Torqueflites were the best for longevity, good gearing, smooth shifting IMO. Of course, GM had their clunkers, too, like the Slim Jim and the Turboglide, but they were pulled off production quickly. The BW 66 soldiered on in many foreign cars for years and years. Foreign companies didn't have a clue about how to make an automatic until the Americans taught them.
And then we even have Rolls using GM-TH automatics. The American car industry has to be credited (by most anyway) for one thing, perfecting the automatic transmission.
I wonder if MB was influenced by anyone for their weird first unit like in my fintail, or if it was all original. If a normal car shifted like that thing, one would have to guess the transmission just went out, but for that unit it is perfectly normal. I love some of the downshifts which combine jerkiness with harshness, and the sometimes weird slippery upshifts. But that's how it was built.
Oh yeah, I forgot the hydramatic similarities. I found it curious that MB and Stude, who had a connection in NA, used the same firm to source their automatics. Maybe just a coincidence, but noteworthy anyway.
I'm guessing the MB unit was for lower speed efficiency - non-OD 4 speed that goes into 4th around 30mph. Not bad tech for around 50 years ago maybe.
man, that thing is goofy looking. And if I am going to have an orphaned glorified kit car, I think I would at least want to stick with a GM v8 so there is a hope of keeping it running for less than the price of my house!
My Borg Warner DG 250 automatic transmission has given me good service since I got my Commander in 1979 (31 years). I like it because the direct drive in third gear gives me good economy and because it is air cooled by fins on the outside of the torque converter. No need for water cooling or worrying about damage to the transmission if the engine overheats.
It is nice and smooth IF the throttle control arm is adjusted properly and IF you tell it when you want it to shift using the gas pedal. When others drive the car and maintain a constant pedal pressure, then it shifts too soon. This is reflected here: http://www.studebaker-info.org/text3/dg250.txt
Popular Science gave this summary of what a driver can do with Automatic Drive: "One criticism often voiced against automatic transmissions is that they deprive the driver of choice. That this isn't true of the Studebaker/Borg- Warner drive is shown by the following description of what happens when the selector lever is in the drive position. . . ."
I was thinking of switching to the more modern "Fordomatic" but was advised not to do that because I could not get it modified to start in first gear and would not get the same fuel economy.
My nomination for the worst auto transmission of all times is the Buick Dyna-flow (aka Dyna-Flop) . Our neighbor had the misfortune of owning a Buick with one of those evil devices in it. The car was a total gas hog that got towed to the transmission shop on a regular basis.
Does yours have the cable operated downshift mechanism? I think the Fordomatic would not be a good substitute---pretty much the same characteristics. Once you've driven the GM Hydramatics of that era, there's no going back to anything else IMO. Not only do they last a long time---they aren't fussy either. If you don't change the oil and filter on a BW66 every 25,000 miles, you're in trouble down the road.
When I first got my drivers license we had just bought a new '73 Volvo 144 with what I believe was the BW autobox. It worked OK but my recollection is that it did not have a highway "passing gear" automatic downshift when you floored the accelerator.
The car itself was terrible, with all sorts of problems and a bad local dealer, but we didn't seem to have transmission trouble.
Ironically, it replaced a '71 Dodge Monaco with the wonderful TorqueFlite. I loved that big beast!
That's correct, Volvo used that same BW box and it made the car a bit of a dog, (well, actually a genuine dog) ---- what with a 4 cylinder engine, and gearbox ratios more suited to a car with a much larger engine. Yes, you could downshift by stepping on the gas, but if that cable was least bit out of adjustment, no dice.
Like anything else, you clean it, adjust it regularly, it works better. The Volvo 122, the prior model, also used this gearbox, with similarly dismal results. Lots 'o people convert to 4-speeds.
I don't think Volvo got a 4-speed automatic until 1982 !!
The legendary Saab turbo had made similar unfortunate choices with their Aisin automatics, which took a very fun and sporty car and deleted the FUN factor.
The German cars had their ZF or proprietary auto gearboxes, and while not great, they were better---but smooth shifting, they were not.
My DG 250 automatic has a threaded rod to control when the transmission shifts. I think it is called a throttle control rod. It is adjusted by the adjusting the location of the rod on the threads. I drive it some, then crawl under the car and adjust it until it shifts at the point on the gas pedal where I want it to.
I would prefer a manual three-speed with overdrive, but a three speed automatic where I get to control the shifts is the next best thing. I need first gear start in drive because I have 15-inch wheels, oversize tires and a 3.31 to 1 rear ratio. Some Stude owners have converted to a GM 4 speed automatic. I think it has the number 400. But that is a big project, the car won't be stock and my PNDLR shift indicator won't make sense. However, I am open to hearing more about that idea for future reference.
I did manage to shift from low into reverse in a Chevy with PRNDL at about 30 miles per hour while trying to shift from low to drive and that was not fun. In all fairness to Mr.Goodwrench, I was trying to shift with my left hand because I had my right arm around a girl at the time and she did not care for that maneuver either.
I think PNDLR was the more sensible way to go. It was better for rocking the car out of mud or snow too as sometime happens after you shift from low to reverse at 30 mph..
I'm not so sure you'd enjoy a column shifter with a 3-speed. I actually hate to admit it, but I converted my '55 President 2D HT to a floor shifter. But that was long ago, when the cars were pretty much worthless.
I found out while trying to rock my Genesis out of a snow drift that the shifter won't even go from N to R without your foot on the brake (at least hard enough to activate the brake lights).
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I don't know how living where we live you drive a stick everyday. I just couldn't do it! I just think of creeping along 295 every night and am happy to have an automatic.
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a few minutes on 295 is nothing. You are either in neutral or creeping in 1st with your foot off the clutch when traffic is jammed up. No biggie.
I spent almost a year commuting to Malvern too with it, so that involved 295, the bridge (usually the ben, so 676 and the vine "expressway" too), and of course the full length of the surekill.
That could be a lot of clutching on the way home, since it was typically all jammed up out to city line.
My record for the trip home (malvern to voo), a 44 mile trip, was 2.5 hours on a rainy friday. I did have calf cramps that night!
I wish my 1955 Commander had the three speed with overdrive. . .but changing that now would involve a lot of work and parts in addition to the transmission. . flywheel, clurch, bell housing, steering column, clutch pedal assembly, drive shaft.. . My Commander still exactly matches its Fenruary 1955 production order and I want to change that either.
If I really want to shift, I can drive my 1955 Messerschmitt (that was a good year). Pull back on the lever for first gear, down for the next three. Just like a motor cycle. No need for reverse gear because the motor runs forward AND backward. http://www.microcar.org/gallery/v/Member+Photos/JLJac/
I used to travel to Berwyn everyday, so I feel your pain. I used to dread Fridays from Memorial day to labor day. All those Philly guys heading to the shore.
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Thanks Fintail. I like to keep old cars as stock as possible or make changes that are not too noticeable, like seatbelts. I do still drive the Commander from Santa Monica to Las Vegas sometimes and to Cholame on James Dean crash day (when September 30 falls on a Friday). I get thumbs up from other drivers all the way. No need for the auto club either. People stop to help you if something breaks down.
A friend of mine drove his 1955 Commander to South Bend a few years ago for the Studebaker National Meet. The only thing that broke down was the electric fuel pump he added. (D'oh") :mad:
A few posts ago I mentioned that Studebaker built most of its cars in South Bend from raw materials including the interiors and seats. Car companies do not do that now and Chrysler might have to shut down an assembly plant because the workers who make the seats are threatening to strike.
$24 an hour? Not counting benefits, that's not much less than I make, and I have a degree and live in a fairly expensive area. I'd think that's fine in places where houses cost 100K.
I did not realize that the Chrysler plant and the Integram Seating company were located in Ontario, Canada when I sent the post. Those jobs have already left America. Hence the "low" compensation rate of "only" $24.32 per hour.
This seems like an old familiar story. US car company in financial trouble moves production to Canada. Something like that happened in South Bend, Indiana in December 1963.
That '55 Commander is gorgeous. Great color IMHO. Nothing else in '55 looked remotely like it...most everything else was tall and chunky in comparison.
You are lucky (IMHO) to have toured Studebaker when it was open. Being a fan of their '64 line, I have daydreamed about what it would have been like to visit there in say, January '64, and walk through their storage lots and pick out a Daytona convertible, GT Hawk with vinyl top, Avanti with supercharger, Champ pickup, etc.,...at fire-sale prices after the South Bend assembly line shutdown.
Speaking of Avanti, the one shown here several posts ago that "...could be had for $20K" is an R1--the lowest-priced and least-desired Avanti. R2's add so much to the value..but as a Studebaker guy, you are aware of that. I think there's still a general impression among non-Stude guys that there isn't a Studebaker that will bring $10K, and that's far from the truth, especially in the last 20 years or so. There are certain Studes that bring more than a Big Three counterpart. Anyway, I've been enjoying your posts. Do you ever post on www.studebakerdriversclub.com?
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Let me know if you have any interest in me sending you a copy of that M-B article about the Studebaker years. It's authoritatively written; it's about Benzes and not Studes, and dotted with some good period photos and ad photos. Send me an email. If not, that's OK of course.
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spotted a maybach today, how in the heck is that a 400k car? just looks like a chopped mercedes. I may be wrong, and sure that I am, but I'd expect much more for 400k
Comments
Before 1959, full size Studebakers could have been priced at $300 below Chevrolet if GM built them, but they sold at Buick prices. The higher price of Studebakers caused lower sales because GM and Ford gave the buyer more car for the money. The most costly component of building a car is the labor cost. Mass production is important too, but South Bend main could build 80 Larks per hour, which was twice as many as they could sell.
This week Time Magazine has a special article on the American Dream and it states that the UAW is making concessions to permit new employees outside of Detroit to be paid $14 per hour BUT GM plants in Mexico only pay $7.00 per hour. The South Bend UAW would not give Studebaker any meaningful concessions like that.
Now, nearly 50 years later, few cars are actually built in Detroit any more. If cars could be built profitably in Detroit, the majority of American cars would still be built there. This situation cannot be blamed on management incompetence alone because profitable, well-run companies avoid that place too.
The Avanti really was ahead of its time. It had no grille in the front, no chrome (except for vehicle identification and bumpers) and tail lights blended into the body. Many cars have those features now. Studebaker based the Avanti on the Lark convertible frame, Ford based the Mustang on the Falcon platform. . .more than a year and one half after the Avanti was introduced.
Try to pick another US auto maker that was a few years ahead of the rest of the pack during the 20 years after World War II. Nobody copied the Nash style, but did copy the size of the Nash Rambler which later became the Rambler American.
Obviously, styling is subjective, but I was not a big fan of '58-63 T-Birds. To me, Ford went to great length to make them look like 'birds'. I think the Golden Hawk looked better, and my guess is that, hardtop for hardtop, condition-for-condition, a Golden Hawk and a '58-60 T-Bird, anyway, will show the Golden Hawk selling for more. Don't care what the value guides say, but I bet eBay results would prove that.
I cannot think of a single 4-passenger car that came out in 1956--other than the Hawk and the $10K Mark II Continental--that had long hood, short deck styling. Hell, as late as '64, GM cars had short hood, long deck styling! The Hawk was absolutely innovative in that respect. Look at some old car mags...the Hawks always garnered good reviews.
I think Stude did more, with less, than AMC did. By '64 you could get Studes with blowers, 3-speed autos that could be shifted manually through three gears, disc brakes, full gauges (not put on top or on side of a steering wheel, either), 4-speeds, inside hood releases, dual master cylinders on drum brake cars, reclining seats, sunroofs, sliding roof wagons, Diesel medium duty trucks, pickups with 5-speeds and sliding rear windows....try finding any other manufacturer that offered all these at that time.
I'm in a hotel now and don't have my source documents near, but Studebaker designed, in conjunction with Borg-Warner, their own "Automatic Drive" which debuted in 1950, only one year after Packard's Ultramatic. It had a lockup torque converter and Ford wanted to buy it from Studebaker...this is widely reported. Sadly, Studebaker didn't sell it and later couldn't resist the urge to buy more basic Borg-Warners 'off the rack'. Of course, Stude had a sturdy OHV V8 in '51, four years before Chevy and Packard.
And if you're not a muscle car buff or Stude buff, one may not know that Stude R-3's are routinely spanking Big Three muscle cars of way-larger displacement at the Pure Stock Muscle Car Drags in Stanton, MI, year in, year out. At least one Big Three musclecar owner has actually pulled his car out of running against an R3 Stude, for fear of actually losing to a Stude!
My impression of Studebaker was an extremely militant and uncooperative UAW combined with management that was probably even worse than some of GM's leadership. The only thing that kept them going was very good product designers (and IMHO Loewy took far more credit than deserved from the other stylists for these good designs).
As for Packard, I think their downfall came about because they were never able to make the transition starting postwar when the luxury segment expanded in volume due to less premium pricing.
Bottom line is---it took massive capital to compete in the postwar auto industry, and if your company did not have the dollars to refresh, restyle and mass produce at a frenetic pace, you were going to fail. Ask Mr. Kaiser about that and he was no fool.
II could see postwar Studebaker design as "period-interesting" but not influential to any great degree IMO. I look at the books of fossils but I don't see any Studebaker genes spread anywhere in the50s 60s or 70s and beyond. it's just not there. It's hard to build a mythology and a heritage around Studebakers, Nashes, Kaisers. Even Hudson is sexier today, because of its racing successes I guess and Packard, of course, because of its prewar reputation.
The "icons" of the 50s---we could all name them-----T-Bird, Corvette, '55-57 Chevy, 59 Cadillac.
Cars like Avanti are curiosities today at best, and even today, not worth the cost of a modern restoration. This doesn't speak to the merits of the car, but rather to the general lack of influence on future design, and the inability to create a mythology about itself, through whatever---movies, racing accomplishments in NASCAR (Studebaker did race a little in NASCAR, but with Pontiac engines!) , or the public's fond memories. It's just a sideline to the Big Show that was the Big Three.
To put it another way, if Studebaker or Kaiser or Packard or Nash never existed after 1945, the course of American car design would have been pretty much the same I think. However, we would still have needed the Jeep!
Here's one that sold in the 2009 economy, for $75K:
http://www.studebaker-info.org/avdb/R4000/63R4130/25709.html
Admittedly, it's an R3 and has provenance from being the President of Studebaker's personal car, but I'm not sure how much that means to anybody outside of diehard Studebaker circles.
Excluding Corvettes and Hemis of course, I'm not sure how many domestic, closed production cars would have brought this kind of money.
Regarding why MB chose a BW automatic, my guess is that BW was a reputable, independent vendor of reliable automatics at a time when the only other viable choice would have been to source an automatic from one of the Big Three. Since Europeans were always interested in fuel efficiency and maximum performance from relatively small displacement engines, more than cost, it was logical that Mercedes would prefer its 4-speed over the BW sourced 3-speed. As we've discussed before, Hydra-Matic provided a model for just the transmission that Mercedes may have wanted at the time. Whether MB used that model, or reinvented the wheel, is a question we never answered.
Particularly, independents.
But the market does not exclude any Detroit icons which come across the same auction block as any given Studebaker-including the one Avanti which you linked.
I mean your R3 with provenance from the Studebaker prez is judged by the same bidders setting the value of Thunderbolt Fairlanes, Super Duty LeMans and Catalinas (with aluminum front end instead of Avanti fiberglass), and all manner of big block Vettes and Hemi Cudas, Superbirds, and the like.
And results show that Big 3 Detroit consistently brings stronger money than Studebakers. And for sheer weirdness and anti-hero worship nothing is likely to torpedo the Tucker. (Oh that was bad.)
You may not think it's a fair comparison but can anyone show a pattern of Studebaker outperforming Big 3 Detroit at auction now or in the market place 50 years ago? As pointed out somewhere in this topic, Jeep is the only thing we would have dearly missed if GM, Ford, and Chrysler had been the only post war domestic car makers.
A $75K Avanti? Well the rarity of the engine and the provenance was ALL the money. C'mon, let's not call it typical.
An Avanti today is a hard sell at $20,000 and is really more like a $15,000 car all day long. A shabby one is not even worth restoring. Fair? No, the market isn't supposed to work on fairness, or merit, but on the formula of supply and demand.
At $15K-$20K, all the people who want Avantis have them already. That's how it works, be it Studebakere, Hemis, '57 Chevys, you name it.
The "market" is where most of the sales are. In any large number of cars sales, we will always have Elvis' Cadillac as one extreme and the widow who sells one for $500 because she's blind and uninformed. Neither is "the market", right?
Part of the "market wisdom" is, no offense intended, that devoted Studebaker collectors (and some other marques) are considered to be very reluctant to spend large sums of money themselves, much less have others people spend it.
Here's a beautiful Avanti, a 4-speed no less. I think you could offer $20K for it and get it.
http://cars-on-line.com/49112.html
Here's a nice one that needs a few things for $15.9K asking, yours for probably $14K
http://cars-on-line.com/46527.html
There really are no 50s and 60s independents that can bring GM/Ford and Mopar money on a regular basis. This makes market sense since again, supply and demand dictates.
So really, Hawks and Avantis are a good buy "for the money", if you buy them right and in great condition. Unlike a Chevy, a Stude or Nash or Hudson or Packard does not have huge aftermarket support, so restorations are difficult and expensive in comparison.
I do not believe that Studebaker had a financial connection to Borg Warner or that Borg Warner was located in South Bend. Bendix was located in South Bend and had more employees than Studebaker when Studebaker closed. Bendix did a lot of business with Studebaker including supplying the hyro-vac power brake units and the disc brakes for the Avanti. Bendix ended up with the old Studebaker proving grounds which is now known as Bendix Woods County Park. If you cllick on the link of this page you can see that the trees still spell the word STUDEBAKER from above.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bendix_Woods
I always regarded BW's transmissions of that era as decent but clunky to drive. This has been my experience with Studes, Jag XJ 6s (early ones) and Volvos. No real tranmission "trouble" but they seemed very unsophisticated. The GM transmissions and the Torqueflites were the best for longevity, good gearing, smooth shifting IMO. Of course, GM had their clunkers, too, like the Slim Jim and the Turboglide, but they were pulled off production quickly. The BW 66 soldiered on in many foreign cars for years and years. Foreign companies didn't have a clue about how to make an automatic until the Americans taught them.
I wonder if MB was influenced by anyone for their weird first unit like in my fintail, or if it was all original. If a normal car shifted like that thing, one would have to guess the transmission just went out, but for that unit it is perfectly normal. I love some of the downshifts which combine jerkiness with harshness, and the sometimes weird slippery upshifts. But that's how it was built.
I'm guessing the MB unit was for lower speed efficiency - non-OD 4 speed that goes into 4th around 30mph. Not bad tech for around 50 years ago maybe.
Can I Get This Fixed at Pep Boys?
I really like how this car looks!
Lark Custom Giant-Killer
And a very nice stock clean 1960 Lark with V8 and overdrive for a very affordable price:
1960 Lark 2D HT
IIRC much of that money was reclaimed by the feds via windfall profits taxes.
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It is nice and smooth IF the throttle control arm is adjusted properly and IF you tell it when you want it to shift using the gas pedal. When others drive the car and maintain a constant pedal pressure, then it shifts too soon. This is reflected here: http://www.studebaker-info.org/text3/dg250.txt
Popular Science gave this summary of what a driver can do with Automatic
Drive: "One criticism often voiced against automatic transmissions is that they
deprive the driver of choice. That this isn't true of the Studebaker/Borg-
Warner drive is shown by the following description of what happens when the
selector lever is in the drive position. . . ."
I was thinking of switching to the more modern "Fordomatic" but was advised not to do that because I could not get it modified to start in first gear and would not get the same fuel economy.
My nomination for the worst auto transmission of all times is the Buick Dyna-flow (aka Dyna-Flop) . Our neighbor had the misfortune of owning a Buick with one of those evil devices in it. The car was a total gas hog that got towed to the transmission shop on a regular basis.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The car itself was terrible, with all sorts of problems and a bad local dealer, but we didn't seem to have transmission trouble.
Ironically, it replaced a '71 Dodge Monaco with the wonderful TorqueFlite. I loved that big beast!
2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6
Like anything else, you clean it, adjust it regularly, it works better. The Volvo 122, the prior model, also used this gearbox, with similarly dismal results. Lots 'o people convert to 4-speeds.
I don't think Volvo got a 4-speed automatic until 1982 !!
The legendary Saab turbo had made similar unfortunate choices with their Aisin automatics, which took a very fun and sporty car and deleted the FUN factor.
The German cars had their ZF or proprietary auto gearboxes, and while not great, they were better---but smooth shifting, they were not.
I would prefer a manual three-speed with overdrive, but a three speed automatic where I get to control the shifts is the next best thing. I need first gear start in drive because I have 15-inch wheels, oversize tires and a 3.31 to 1 rear ratio. Some Stude owners have converted to a GM 4 speed automatic. I think it has the number 400. But that is a big project, the car won't be stock and my PNDLR shift indicator won't make sense. However, I am open to hearing more about that idea for future reference.
I did manage to shift from low into reverse in a Chevy with PRNDL at about 30 miles per hour while trying to shift from low to drive and that was not fun. In all fairness to Mr.Goodwrench, I was trying to shift with my left hand because I had my right arm around a girl at the time and she did not care for that maneuver either.
I think PNDLR was the more sensible way to go. It was better for rocking the car out of mud or snow too as sometime happens after you shift from low to reverse at 30 mph..
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I spent almost a year commuting to Malvern too with it, so that involved 295, the bridge (usually the ben, so 676 and the vine "expressway" too), and of course the full length of the surekill.
That could be a lot of clutching on the way home, since it was typically all jammed up out to city line.
My record for the trip home (malvern to voo), a 44 mile trip, was 2.5 hours on a rainy friday. I did have calf cramps that night!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
If I really want to shift, I can drive my 1955 Messerschmitt (that was a good year). Pull back on the lever for first gear, down for the next three. Just like a motor cycle. No need for reverse gear because the motor runs forward AND backward. http://www.microcar.org/gallery/v/Member+Photos/JLJac/
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Cool pics, interesting that you've had it for so long, old pics of cars that still exist are a treasure for the owner.
A friend of mine drove his 1955 Commander to South Bend a few years ago for the Studebaker National Meet. The only thing that broke down was the electric fuel pump he added. (D'oh") :mad:
A few posts ago I mentioned that Studebaker built most of its cars in South Bend from raw materials including the interiors and seats. Car companies do not do that now and Chrysler might have to shut down an assembly plant because the workers who make the seats are threatening to strike.
Workers at Integram Seating have not had a pay raise in four years and the average wage there is about $24.32 per hour. The strike will occur if no labor contract has been worked out by November 7, the expiration date for the current agreement. http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/27/report-supplier-strike-may-lead-to-shutdown-o- - f-chryslers-miniv/?icid=main%7Chtmlws-main-n%7Cdl4%7Csec4_lnk1%7C180470.
It is a wonder that any affordable cars are built in America any more.
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Very interesting.!!
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This seems like an old familiar story. US car company in financial trouble moves production to Canada. Something like that happened in South Bend, Indiana in December 1963.
I got to see two auto factories in operation. The Studebaker factory in South Bend and the Hummer plant in Mishiwaka. That one might be closing soon too.http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124087279
You are lucky (IMHO) to have toured Studebaker when it was open. Being a fan of their '64 line, I have daydreamed about what it would have been like to visit there in say, January '64, and walk through their storage lots and pick out a Daytona convertible, GT Hawk with vinyl top, Avanti with supercharger, Champ pickup, etc.,...at fire-sale prices after the South Bend assembly line shutdown.
Speaking of Avanti, the one shown here several posts ago that "...could be had for $20K" is an R1--the lowest-priced and least-desired Avanti. R2's add so much to the value..but as a Studebaker guy, you are aware of that. I think there's still a general impression among non-Stude guys that there isn't a Studebaker that will bring $10K, and that's far from the truth, especially in the last 20 years or so. There are certain Studes that bring more than a Big Three counterpart. Anyway, I've been enjoying your posts. Do you ever post on www.studebakerdriversclub.com?