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I think they look sharp in black, with alloy wheels. But this one just had wire spoke hubcaps.
Do you remember the LeSabre T-type coupe? There can't be many of those left.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Also something weird, Fairmont wagon that looked to have never been washed. Around here, that means it was covered with algae/mold, looked like it had been pulled out of a lake.
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Yeah, that was a sharp looking car. I think the best looking FWD LeSabre was actually the 1986 model, which still had the old fashioned quad headlights, rather than composites. IMO those gave it a more rakish, aggressive look, while the composites actually toned it down a bit. Still, a good looking car, especially in black!
My ex-wife's mother had a LeSabre sedan, either an '87 or '88 I think. It was a fairly good car, considering they didn't take very good care of it. I think it finally succumbed around 130-140,000 miles.
I remember those and they were pretty good looking in their day.
I always liked how the hoods opened on those LeSabres and Electras.
Back to those Eighty-Eights of the same era..I can remember the older couple who lived across the street from my sister and family had the most striking light-turquoise color one (a sedan, though). I don't think I ever saw another one that color.
It actually caught my eye enough that I took a picture of it, back in 2005, which was the first year I put my LeMans in the GM show at Carlisle...
We went to that diner a few more times over the year, and at one point it had moved forward to another parking spot, abutting the curb. And, as the year progressed, the asphalt underneath it got nastier and nastier from oil, coolant, and probably every other fluid that goes into a car.
This particular example was pretty shot, but I bet it was pretty sharp looking, when it was new.
The door handles really dated that car, it just seemed older than any other car on the road at the time.
My grandma had a similar mid 80s Olds. She loved it - because she claimed it was easy to see out of while reversing. In 1996, her fairly immaculate low mileage car was hit by a W124 E-class that ran a stop sign - impact at passenger side wheel, total loss. She replaced it with a nearly new Taurus (at my uncle's urging) which she disliked.
Saw 2 Porsche Targas today - an absolutely pristine chestnut brown 70s (chrome headlight rings) model, and a "well loved" looking white 80s model.
At the time, I thought that they kept those door handles as a nod to it being a 'luxury' type car, where all the lower models of GM's had the lift-type handles.
Andre, the turquoise I remember that Eighty-Eight being was very vivid...but then, the car was always clean and shiny. Long story short, but I remember the old guy having a red '65 Dynamic 88 convertible when I was a kid. He was the step-grandfather of a kid in our neighborhood when I was younger (remember, a town of only 8,800 people in the '60 census). The old guy got Alzheimer's but my Mom and I saw him at a dinner at the fire hall (!) and I mentioned both his Oldsmobiles I was aware of and he sprang to life, telling me about his whole long list of Oldsmobiles. He had been a pharmacist.
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Funny you bring that up. I remember a friend of mine's mom's boyfriend who was a doctor had one of those early fwd Olds sedans that he drove often between Chicago and Indy. I remember him telling me he had 3 transmissions replaced before the first set of tires wore out. IIRC he was driving like 60k/yr. I'd guess it had to be back in '85 or '86.
Supposedly, by 1988 the transmission was much improved.
Kinda interesting how all of the domestics seemed to have teething problems with their 4-speed OD automatics. Ford's first, which came out in 1980, was supposedly a weak spot for years. GM's 4-speed for the big cars came out in 1981, and was troublesome at first, but I think they worked the bugs out quicker than Ford did.
GM's transverse 4-speed was troublesome too, and I believe Ford's first, which went in the 1986 Taurus/Sable, also had issues. The Corvette had to be pushed back enough that there was no 1983 model, because its 4-speed automatic wasn't ready yet. And that 4-speed 4L60E that they've been using in trucks has been spotty for as long as it's been in production...although supposedly the older 700R4 version wasn't too bad.
And, Chrysler's "UltraDrive" from c1988 goes without mentioning. I don't know that they ever truly worked the kinks out of it. I think they simply began designing it to upshift long before the engines would hit their peak torque. When Chrysler started putting 4-speed automatics in their trucks, they were troublesome at first, as well.
I wonder if the Japanese had the same issues when they started migrating to 4-speed automatics?
Interestingly, these days, it seems like the move to 5- and 6-speed automatics has been relatively drama-free, with the exception of, perhaps, the early Honda 5-speeds mated to the V-6.
I had this happen on my 89 MGM and it wouldn't stay in 4th gear above 65. I just drove it as a 3 speed for a good while.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
This is a fellow who had a Northstar-equipped Cadillac around that same time whose starter failed when he went to leave work one Friday. He left the car in the open-air parking garage for the night, bought a replacement starter and all the gaskets you'd need to replace it (in the Northstar it was buried in the valley between the cylinder banks, under the intake) and returned on the weekend with his tools and replaced the thing on the spot.
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And people say GM's don't last.
He gave it to a family member known for destroying cars and he managed to get two years out of it before something fatal happened.
I am the first one to knock the 3800/4sp when comparing to modern drivetrains (in terms of refinement/power etc) but properly maintained they are certainly bulletproof. I'd put them right up there with Ford's older "lopo" 5.0s and 4.6 modular motors.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I agree. Nothing wrong with the durability of the late 3800, but like you I just don't like it. I know some chime the 3800's torque delivery, but I never found the 3800 Series III in my wife's '07 Grand Prix particularly powerful. Sure it was quick to about 40, but after that if always seemed sluggish to me. The 3.5 powered Taurus she has now feels far more responsive and her gas mileage has gone up by 2-3 mpg overall in mixed driving (despite having over 50 more hp and weighing 700+lbs more). Plus I really disliked how crude the 3800 sounded to my ears. Just not my cup of tea.
But yeah, if you avoid the 3800s that had intake issues they will last longer than the cars they're in.
Ford's 4.6 seems to be able to last a long time too. My dad put 230k on a '92 Crown Vic with relative ease. Of course it was burning oil and would smoke. That seems to be a problem with high mileage 2v 4.6s. But like the 3800, the 4.6 was a great engine in the 90's that were out classed in the '00's.
I think towards the end, that combination was getting outdated, so if you wanted the latest and greatest, there were much better choices out there.
However, for used cars, often priorities are vastly different. So if you want something cheap to buy (thanks to depreciation) and fairly reliable (as long as you can avoid the intake gasket issues that Dieselone mentioned) and just want something that's "good enough", I think they make decent cars.
If something happened to my Park Ave, I don't think I'd actively seek out another though. Not that it's been a bad car, but I just want to experience something different the next time around. Back when my Intrepid got totaled, the first potential replacement I found was another Intrepid. It was a nicer model though, the ES with the more reliable/cheaper-to-fix-when-it-does-break 3.2, and leather, alloys, and a sunroof. But, I figured that after ten years with one Intrepid, it was time to get something else. And, if something happens to the Park Ave, I'm going to try and keep the same attitude.
One good thing about the 3800 is that, in the bigger cars at least, usually there's enough sound insulation to drown out any engine coarseness or undesireable sounds.
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Exactly, but I was flamed a few times on here for saying it!
What would you replace the Park AVe with? There isn't much out there for those who want a large cushy sedan. My LaCrosse that my wife now drives is a pretty good balance of "old Buick" and modern sedan.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The 91-95ish ones will smoke a little after 150K or so. Its the valve seals. That got much better with the later models.
The 4.6 is darn near indestuctible. They had a few issues over the years (plastic intake, timing chain tensioners) but I've seen many with 300K+ on them.
I rode in a Lincoln TC limo with 450K on the clock. I'd love to know if it had the original engine.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
That's what my buddy's '95 Grand Marquis GS was doing towards the end. I don't know when the smoking started, but it had 175,000 miles on it when he traded it on his '04 Crown Vic LX.
That '04 however, was still running fine at 230,000 or so, when he traded for a used '09 Grand Marquis LS Ultimate which had, I think, either 51 or 54K miles on it. Oh, and now that I think of it, the '04 did have an issue with the plastic intake. I forget what the mileage was when it happened, though.
Well, if I go brand-new, what I really want is a Dodge Charger. But, what I need is a sensible, 4-cyl midsize. I have a feeling though, that in this case want will trump need. :shades:
If I go slightly-used, maybe a 2011+ Charger or 300, or one of the final few years of Town Car, Crown Vic, or Grand Marquis. Town Car would be my first choice, because of my hang-up on sunroofs.
I think I'd also consider a Lucerne. Okay, so that's not *that* much different from my Park Ave, but at least it's an update. I've been in a few, so I know that the fit and finish is a lot better, and the interiors aren't near as plasticky.
That problem was supposed to be only for 96-02 models. Ford changed the coolant crossover to aluminum sometime in 01. Naturally with higher miles I guess anything is possible.
I like your idea of an late model Town Car. There are deals to be had for sure. I don't like how on the 11's they no longer had rear air-suspension but that could be a blessing in disguise in terms of reliabilty.
Nothing wrong with a Lucerne either, but in all honesty yes it is very similar to your Park Ave.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Unfortunately with the Lucerne you pretty much have to find a Northstar powered sample to avoid having a heavy underpowered car. Why GM didn't use the 3.6/6speed combo in them is beyond my comprehension.
A 3.8 or 3.9 powered Lucerne would be substantially slower than Andre's supercharged Park Ave. From what I've read a v8 Lucerne will offer about the same performance as a Park Ave Ultra, granted with an extra helping of 32v v8 refinement.
I said that way back when too. It made no sense to me at all. The previous generation LaCrosse had it available at some point. Knowing GM they probably had to put in the 3800 to keep a union plant running or something equally stupid.
It would probably be hard to find a Northstar Lucerne, I don't believe many were made. It would be much easier (any probably not that more costly) to just get a DTS.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
Yeah, the engine choices are what makes me think twice about the Lucerne. The 3.8 is just overmatched in this car. I think the 3.9 has about 30 more hp and 25-30 ft-lb more torque, but don't know if that's enough to make much difference. And then, you have to get a Northstar just to get performance similar to my supercharged Park Ave. But, it still takes premium, and will most likely get worse economy.
I'm also a bit leery of the Northstar because of repair costs and such, but it may be the older ones I'm thinking of. Didn't they improve them in later years? Also, I've heard the Northstar that the Lucerne uses is a little less powerful, but a bit more durable, than the Cadillac version.
One car I'd really like to have is one of those long-wheelbase Town Cars they offered for a few years. IIRC, it was a 6-inch stretch in wheelbase, all of it in the B-pillar area. It made the back seat in these cars HUGE! It almost wouldn't make sense, because chances are I'm going to be DRIVING the car and not riding in the back seat. But, I still think it would be kinda neat!
I love those! Incredibly huge in the back seat. For a few years in the early 2000s they made "Cartier L" models with rear heated seats and radio/HVAC controls (switches directly stolen from the steering wheel, parts bin engineering at it's finest!) in the rear armrest.
Here is one: Huge!
Little known fact that Ford Fleet also made a long wheelbase Crown Vic for taxi use. They pop up on Ebay from time to time.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
I could be mistaken, I just figured since many Lucernes went into fleets that there would be more V6 models available.
2023 Mercedes EQE 350 4Matic / 2022 Ram 1500 Bighorn, Built to Serve
The newest is a 2009 Super, with 57K miles on it for $21,654. I'm not a big fan of the revised grille treatment the Super got, but I could live with it.
At the bottom of the barrel is a pair of 2006 CXS'es with about 90,000 miles, for $9995 each.
Yeah, I've seen pictures of those. IIRC, they put that added length into the rear door window, rather than doing the thicker C-pillar with the rear door extending under it.
In the case of the Town Car, I think it was a 6" stretch that took the wheelbase to something like 123.7" and overall length to 223.4? I wonder if the Crown Vic was just a 6-inch stretch of its wheelbase, or if they took it all the way to 123.7"?