Pontiac G6

regfootball · January 2004

well, look at how long it took for them to put an off the shelf supercharged v6 in the impala and monte carlo.

i'm sorry but if the interior is not up to snuff, and the pictures suggest so, why not rip it? 25 thou on a car that's supposed to compete beyond the value ranges and we can't even get an interior as nice as a Mazda6 or Accord?

Some folks think its whining, but its a matter of personal standards, i.e. what else you can get besides GM for the same money with a nicer interior.

The Malibu's interior has a better design although it is saddled with cheap plastic too. And I was able to tell that in a picture and confirm it when i sat in one.

ateixeira · January 2004

No manual is dumb, the press will cream it. 0-60 numbers won't seem competitive with Altima and 6, which offer manuals.

-juice

logic1 · January 2004

there will be a 6 speed manual with the 3.9.

revdrluv · January 2004

No manual! Shame, it's a sharp looking car. Could be a big turnaround car for Pontiac.

rctennis3811 · January 2004

at least it has a manual shift mode! I've found those to be pretty fun too!

dindak · January 2004

I wanted to try that in the Malibu when I tested and TOTALLY forgot about it even though I was talking to the salesman about it before we got in the car.

regfootball · January 2004

the aveo is a very nice product in the class it competes in. note that it didn't come from the north american arm of gm.

the G6 is competing in a larger / higher class....vehicles as such don't warrant cheeseball interiors. GM needs to learn this.

breetai52 · January 2004

I hate to say it, but I agree with reg. Especially after seeing the cobalt and solstice interiors. There's no excuse for the g6 interior. Why can't they make it like the solstice? Thats a serious question. If there's a reason let me know.

I still like the exterior and I'm intrigued by the hardtop convertible, but if the interior isnt updated in a few years, GM won't get me to trade early on the G6.

regfootball · January 2004

and then there's the pushrod issue. at least one engine available in the G6 should be high feature.

the excuse for that is not even valid on the malibu, much less the G6.

rctennis3811 · January 2004

Isn't GM producing a 2.8L version of the 3.6L??? I think that should've gone in place of the 3.9L. Oh well!

shado4 · January 2004

> and then there's the pushrod issue. at least one engine available in the G6 should be high feature. <

The G6 will come standard with a DOHC HO 4-cylinder engine starting sometime next year.

Happy now, Reg?

(Probably not...)

dindak · January 2004

reg : Until you try the 3.5L your bashing of the pushrod is based on your prejudice only. It's a good motor and the 3.9L will make a great GTP version. Interior is personal, you don't like Pontiac so you should look elsewhere for a car anyway.

shado : The 2.4L would be my choice only if the mileage is significantly better than the 3.5L (which I doubt). If not, what's the point? 3.5L is a real smoothie with an extra 30hp to boot.

regfootball · January 2004

that's a four, not a 6.

"Interior is personal, you don't like Pontiac so you should look elsewhere for a car anyway."

I like the GTO interior just fine. what's your point?

HOW tough would it be for Pontiac to make a Mazda6 or Accord equivalent interior?

here it is then what the press will write about the G6

-attractive new exterior, refreshing for Pontiac
-marred by typical cheap GM interior
-and lack of a more refined v6 to match the likes of Nissan and Honda's v6's.

dindak · January 2004

The 3900 will blow the Altima away, especially when the 5-speed comes on-line. It will get better mileage too, even without DOD.

You keep panning the G6 for looking like the Mazda 6 but then you say you want the G6 to have the same interior. Even if it did, you would pan it for copying the Mazda 6. No one could ever make you happy. Mazda 6 interior is not that great anyway.

GTO costs 50% more than a G6 will.

dindak · January 2004

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat- _code=autoshows&loc_code=&content_code=08902925

bretaa · January 2004

To reg and breetai52:
I have to agree on the interior. Looking at the photos of the Cobalt and Solstice interiors in comparison to the otherwise very appealing G6, I have to wonder if these people talk with each other at all.

I'm sure the G6 will do quite well. It's a dramatic step up from what is there and is instantly competitive with the heart of the market. But it doesn't *clearly* beat anyone right now out of the gate, and better certainly is the enemy of good. A solid double or triple instead of the home run Accord killer it could have been.

Bret

tomcat630 · January 2004

"No manual! Shame,"

Go to the "real world trade in values" forum and see how "valuable" manual trannies are. They are just for armchair car magazine racer's bragging rights. "My favorite car can be had with a manual". Then go buy one and take the resale hit.
-------------------------------------------
"HOW tough would it be for Pontiac to make a Mazda6 or Accord equivalent interior?" If they did, people would huff "They copied". Some are never satisified with anything that the "evil" GM makes.

"the front looks like a GP" Uuh, don't expect Pontiacs to not look like each other, they have shared family resemblence, forever. Even in the the "classic 60's"

vcjumper · January 2004

If it were more like the concept/got rid of door guards like the TSX and Accord, someone on C&G chopped this:

Photochopped G6

vcjumper · January 2004

I really don't get the G6 interior. The solstice is a cheap car and it has a much nicer one. What gives. More and more it looks like I'll end up in a TSX on the high end or a Mazda 3 on the low. Maybe a 9-2 if they come out with a sedan version and the turbo version isn't much more than the TSX. Legacy if a 200hp version is also not much more.

bigdaddycoats · January 2004

Is there something wrong with manual transmissions? I think they are a lot of fun!

z9z9z9z9 · January 2004

OK, the interior looks cheap, but I noticed that the steering wheel in the picture is NOT leather wrapped, so this is probably the base model IP that we're looking at. The upscale models may be better; perhaps they have some aluminum trim as well.

The exterior is very nice, and the 240 hp V6 6-speed is more than I hoped for, so this car is still on my list. The interior is not as nice as the Mazda 6, but the engine is better, so I'll have to wait until I can drive one to decide.

To bad it's WWD (wrong wheel drive)

dindak · January 2004

z9 : The wheel may be replaced completely, there are always a few minor changes before production.

bighdaddy : Manuals are great and Pontiac is putting one in the G6 which is even better, For the vast majority however, automatic is reality.

tomcat : The Pontiac "look" on the front is so much better than before. Bob has done wonders with the look of this car.

joey2brix · January 2004

That autoweek link you posted earlier says the 3.9's not coming until late '05 meaning '06 models. What happened to next spring availability? I wouldn't be surprised if a 5 or 6 speed manual gets dropped altogether. GM's not going to bother making this happen for just a few thousand buyers. Pontiac did OK on the styling, average on the interior, and mediocre on the engines. When it comes to the bulk of the bread and butter models, Lutz is good with the eye candy, with nothing under the hood just like the Nox. Cadillac, Vette, GTO get better engines when the price tag goes over 30K.

revdrluv · January 2004

If Pontiac is still seeking to be the "sporty-side-of-GM" and an "affordable-bmw-alternative" they should offer a manual.

dindak · January 2004

revdrluv : They will

joey : 3.9L delay is disappointing but then again, I would go for the 3.5L if I was buying so it wouldn't matter to me. Spring means mid 05 model, car comes in the fall. Take a 3.5L out for a drive some time, it's a VERY good V6. Don't dump on it till you try it.

bporter1 · January 2004

I don't want to get into a debate about OHV vs OHC, but until GM develops a small displacement OHC engine that can compete in both smoothness and still get good gas mileage GM will still lose out to the imports. GM is starting to "get it" but they still have long way to go. I know most people who buy cars don't care about OHV or OHC, but GM talked about perceived quality. To me sticking an OHV engine when it screams for an OHC engine is not perceived quality. Nevertheless I really like the new products that GM is coming out with, and the G6 will be on my short list of GM vehicles to buy.

dindak · January 2004

The 3.5L OHV gets better mileage than any of the OHC competition's 4 bangers, is as smooth as a Camry V6 (not quite at Accord smoothness though), and costs less to make. The 3.9L will be based on the 3.5L and will offer 240hp and gobs more torque than the competition's V6s. What's not competitive??

I find it funny how people believe that because it's an older technology it must be bad. Probably the same think process that margarine is better for you than butter.

ateixeira · January 2004

The 3.5l drives nicely, the 3.9l has potential too.

-juice

regfootball · January 2004

"and costs less to make"

it don't mean squat to someone comparing the price of a pontiac to a honda or nissan because the G6 and altima/accord will cost the same.

no one dropping 25+ on a car cares if Gm saved 300 bucks on the deal.

in fact, the inverse is true, "yeah the 3.5 MIGHT be passable but for 25-30k large the car had better come with the best powertrain possible" and that includes OHC and most likely these days vvt.

i.e. someone will go shopping, like the G6, and then go accord shopping and the honda salesman extolls the virtues of the more advanced engine and the shopper goes, ''why should i pay GM this kinda money for something that's a second tier product'.?

revdrluv · January 2004

Because it's gonna be so much cheaper than a comparable Accord.

People are only going to care if the engine is noticeably weaker, or noisier etc... I mean come on, most people never even look under the hood of their cars more than maybe once a year. As long as it doesn't feel much different to drive the public isn't gonna car if it's OHV or OHC. Even more of those people won't even know what that means.

vcjumper · January 2004

Had better be cheaper than the Accord, even the GTP because its interior is not at the same level. Though it will probably handle quite a bit better given the Accord doesn't handle all that great as compared to a TSX, Mazda 6.

I think the only cars in Pontiac's lineup lately that have a high percentage of people who care about the engine and perhaps its tech are the LS1 Firebird and the Grand Prix GTP. I don't think Honda shoppers care as long as its very smooth and powerful (well, 16-25 year old males may thing VTEC = fast regardless if its 125hp).

I will test drive the 3.9L G6 and drive the snot out of it and see if the engine is smooth enough for my tastes. 200hp 3.5L version is not quick enough for me though. That car would be a step sideways rather than up from my current vehicle. If it had an impressive interior, then maybe I would be more open to it. My income has gone up 50% since I bought last, so I'm looking to spend a little more than I did on my last ride.

regfootball · January 2004

I am willing to live with a lesser interior like in a pontiac if i get a better powertrain in return.

but if the powertrain is not great, and the interior sucks, then why even bother to look at the car? its not like I'm gonna buy a car just because its a deal. It has to be a deal, have a nice enough interior, and a pleasing powertrain. That being something appropriate to the level, brand and market of the car.

'Pontiac' = (or is supposed to) performance.

Performance includes revvability, smoothness, sound, in addition to the basics like starting and running. It also helps if the motor doesn't weigh down the front end so much the car is a front end slug when turning.

If the 3.5 and 3.9 are absolute equals or better than the market's competition then fine. Nothing in my past experience suggests any GM pushrod v6 is as nice a drive as the OHC competition. And that includes several drives in supercharged 3800 cars. Even AUTOMOBILE in their test of 30k sedans referred to the 3800's power delivery to be lazy, even if there's a lot of it. And other reviews of relevant GM product do not go out of their way to suggest the revised GM pushrods equal the OHC competition in overall performance.

Pontiac being a performance car division would see great benefit in offering the superior OHC at least as an option. Doing so offers real credibility in building image of Pontiac as a performance brand. It also improves their products. This does not interfere with them offering their 'value' pushrod v6's for those who don't care or those who want them. If someone wants a cheaper 'putt putt' that gets them around in cladding free style and gets em 2mpg better than I am all for that. But Pontiac and Bob Lutz, by your not offering a sophisticated real performance v6 engine in your meat and potatoes performance car product line you are not being taken seriously a whiff by many performance car enthusiasts in the market today. Shoppers are comparing your Pontiacs to all the other makes that go one up on you in this area. Your competition is not Chevy and Buick. Your competition is Honda, Nissan, VW and others. Your v8's somehow you have advanced your engineering so that you can make up for it with displacement and inherently balanced engine architecture. Its time for you to do a real American Revolution and stop treating American car buyers as idiots and second class citizens (by offering high class product in other countries and not in the US). Please come to your senses and make advanced tech v6 engines available in your mainstream products.

otherwise please be content with continual market share erosion in spite of your mammoth press, marketing, and advertising efforts that convince us to buy your 'step down' product.

The G6 has a beautiful, winning exterior design. Why can't the rest of the car play the part too?

Its a shame. Saabaru puts out a visually challenged econobox like the WRX that is small and costs a buttload. But they sell a buttload of them because the performance is there.

logic1 · January 2004

Does GM offer 24 hour test drives in Canada?

Apparently, the concept has worked out well.

I think you would really have an opportunity to 'drive the snot out of' a G6 in a 24 hour test.

regfootball · January 2004

say bye bye to that post tomcat.

theo2709 · January 2004

Yes, reports are that the interior is very nice in person.

dindak · January 2004

logic : 24 hour test was available, not sure if it still is. Have not seen an ad lately.

vcjumper : Spending more doesn't always mean it's worth the $. I don't think a V6 Accord is worth what they are asking for it though it's a good car.

reg : I see you are continuing to be the arm chair critic as usual... haven't tried the 3.5L but it's no good, AUTOMOBILE magazine "says" so it must be true, the G6 is no good but I've never seen one nor has anyone else for that matter, everyone wants a zillion hp OHC engines and knows what's under the hood... ect ect ect..

vcjumper · January 2004

To reports on the G6 interior?

Logic: I believe there is a 24 hour test drive option now in Canada.

theo2709 · January 2004

http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml

"But perhaps the most crucial GM introduction at this year's NAIAS was the new Pontiac G6, the replacement for the long-in-the-tooth Grand Am. As I mentioned above, the toughest thing for a car company design team to do is to bring tasteful design to a high-volume car, and GM has managed to do it with the G6. Rather than wasting time chasing Honda and Toyota with "me-too" attempts at mimicking their designs, GM made the new G6 distinctly American and distinctly Pontiac - and unapologetically so. It's nice to see for a change. And maybe even more important, the new G6 interior is very competitive and is very tastefully done - finally! GM conducted itself as a very confident and competent automaker at the 2004 NAIAS, without even a whiff of the old arrogance that has continuously stymied its efforts in the past. And we say finally to that too."

bporter1 · January 2004

I know the newer engines that GM is using do get very good gas mileage, but I just wish for once that GM would take the initiative and put smoother OHC engines in their mainstream vehicles.

dindak · January 2004

bporter1 : I too have preferred the OHCs in the past. I have an Intrigue with a 3.5L Twincam and an Alero with a 2.2L Ecotec. That said, I tested the Malibu in December and was very impressed with the refinements made to the 3.5L pushrod. It's very smooth and more peppy than my Intrigue. All I can say is try before you trash it.

theo : Ya.. they have actually seen the interior.

z9z9z9z9 · January 2004

> I just wish for once that GM would take the
> initiative and put smoother OHC engines in
> their mainstream vehicles.

Some GM V6 engines are rough not so much because they use pushrods but because they have 90 degree blocks. I owned a '98 GP for 5 years, and the balance shaft smoothed things out so long as you kept it under 4000 rpm, but up near the redline it got pretty rough.

The 3500 and 3900 use 60 degree blocks, so this shouldn't be so much of an issue.

regfootball · January 2004

"so long as you kept it under 4000 rpm"

fine, but performance cars frequently are taken into upper revs.

auto extremist is a harsh critic and appears to think the G6 interior is ok.

the pic on this board does not convey an image of proper interior materials and textures and still the design itself has grand am batman elements to it. plus the cheap center stack buttons it shares with the Malibu.

when does the G6 hit market, if its nice inside I will admit it and eat crow. in the picture to me it looks like it sucks and GM has never produced an interior in a mainstream car that looks or feels up to par.

dan165 · January 2004

Looking at many pictures on the web, I think the interior is pretty nice. The wheel is just ok, but whatever. Plastics quality is a hard thing to determine without touching and seeing for yourself. I have seen pictures of BMW interiors that make it look like a Cavalier because of the lighting and glare.

As of the big OHV vs OHC debate, I have had both and currently drive a 2004 3.8L Grand Prix GT and find it to be just fine. The car was priced about the same as a 4 cylinder Accord (we had an Accord 3 years ago). I'll take a OHV V6 over a base model Accord or any other 4 cyl car any day thank you. Yes the Honda V6 is a tad better, but look at the price tag, yipes!!!

z9z9z9z9 · January 2004

> "so long as you kept it under 4000 rpm"
>
> fine, but performance cars frequently are taken
> into upper revs

This comment was in reference to 90 degree V6 engines. What does this have to do with the G6?

dindak · January 2004

"GM has never produced an interior in a mainstream car that looks or feels up to par"

My Intrigue at the time had a very good interior. Even now, it looks and feels great. Par means average and I would say most GM interiors are there now and some are much better like the Cobalt.

regfootball · January 2004

"This comment was in reference to 90 degree V6 engines. What does this have to do with the G6?"

if you inferring that a 60 degree v6 engine is smooth on the basis of v angle alone I would again put back that the 97-03 Malibu and the cars it descended from with the 2.8 chevy v6 block etc. were not acceptably smooth so the basic 60 degree config did not take care of it alone there. Sorry.

As far as the Intrigue interior I do feel it was one of GM's best interiors until recently (along with the Alero), but still overall you couldn't say it was anything besides mid pack overall. There was still enough cheapness in the interior of those cars that it would look a step down from an Accord but it wasn't 'atrocious' like the Riviera/Regal.

As far as the Cobalt goes it shows some promise but the car is not out yet. I could say the same thing about the Ford 500, it has a nice interior but hey no one can buy one.

dindak · January 2004

The big flaw with the Intrigue interior was assembly. A few of the parts don't fit well with others. There are also a few buttons that look good but don't feel the same. Otherwise it's great, above average for a midsize in the late 90's.

Ford 500 looks very nice. Only thing I dislike is the name.

joey2brix · January 2004

is probably not fare. I'd assume your Intrigue is much heavier and does not have tall gearing like the 'Bu. I remember C&D going ga-ga over the 3.5 DOHC in the Intrigue when it came out. I think many of us don't understand why engines like this and the old Vue 3.0L are not refined and updated rather then beating on a dead 3.4L. Go to the Opel/Vauxhall/Holden site: Many models have 2 4cyl (one a turbo), a DOHC V6 and a desiel engine option. If GM is becoming such a Global company where parts and manufacturing will happen all over the world: How come these great technology OHV engines are never exported to Europe? The German's at Opel would laugh then resign if they had to use those boat anchors. Let's face it, GM's High Value (what a marketing term) engines are not cutting it. I hope Lutz's plan of just putting out eye candy with the same old motor under the hood works. I'm not buying in, and by the looks of current Honda/Toyota percentage of the car market, joe average American car buy isn't also.

bporter1 · January 2004

I will certainly test drive a new Malibu and the G6 when I am ready to buy in two or three years.
I know it seems that I am knocking the OHV engines, I currently drive a 99 Regal GSE with the SC 3800. A very good engine if I may say so. All I am saying about GM is, that if they want to trump the competition they have to come to the party more prepared. It just seems like GM just says "good enough" when I know they can do better. By the way the Intigue was my top pick back in 99, but no Olds dealer would budge too far from sticker.

dindak · January 2004

bporter : I was pro-OHC but having driven the 3.5L in the Malibu I can see that a OHV engine can be just as good.

joey : OHV engines aren't why GM cars aren't selling well.

Pontiac G6

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