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Not basic family car. And I don't think the MAXX is the same group as a mini-SUV. Dindak think about putting the kids into a car seat with a sedan, don't do it. But right now its Nox or CRV. Those I'll drive. I prefer the reviews of the Honda's 4 feeling like a 6 rather then a 6 that can finally move out of it's own way and gets great highway gas mileage. All a moot point since this Holy grail engine is not in the Nox and I'm not waiting 2 years cause it might get it.
You are comparing a top trim Malibu with a starting priced Accord. That's not a fair comparison. Up here there is no V6 accord that sells for less than C$32700 and the LT bases at C$29200. LT has more equipment on it than a base V6 Accord so I'm not thinking the prices are close. Base 4 banger Accord is C$25K with auto for comparison. Outside of the Bu is a touch smaller but the interiors are pretty close apparently.
As for the NOX.. wait for a cash back if that's what you have to do. For me, the FWD CR-V is not available here so CR-V is off my list. FWD Nox LT should be around C$29-30K which is about the same as the VUE V6. If I can negotiate 10% off and get a 2-3% finance rate I may just go for it in Sept.
I agree with joey. GM has been giving us here in NA old school engines with "new" mechanics. A TSX (though not in this category) makes 200HP from a 2.4L inline-4!!!!! Also, I'd rather choose an Accord than a Malibu because of it's inline-4 which is pretty fantastic for a 16-valve engine!
Back to the topic:
Equinox is based on the Epsilon platform, right? Is the Vue also based on that platform?? I'm asking because the upcoming Suzuki Reno is based on the Epsilon platform...
chevrolet sent me another equinox brochure but with a cd rom this time. it has some interesting information on it. i was surprised to hear the chevrolet people on the cd call it the "eeeequinox" rather than the way i say it as "ehquinox". it showed how the rear seats work and also how the rear parcel shelf works, along with all the available colors. i plan to watch it some more tonite.
If the Nox takes off and the Vue selling like Hotcakes thanks to the Honda V6. I'm sure we'll see a Pontiac, Suzuki, and maybe a Saab version in a few years. GM will overdo it with Theta like they did with the Envoy. I hope each looks drastically different.
Thanks rctennis.
Dindak: I'd still take an engine with the racing components like VVT. The CRV's got dual balance shafts, probabaly smother then the 3.5L I had that same 3.4/3.5 as a 3.1 in a Chevy back in '92. It was loud, shaked, leaked oil, and and had poor gas mileage. I'll expect the same until I hear otherwise if I get a Nox. Checkout the old boards on Edmunds: The GM mini-van, Aztek, Rendezvous. etc. All have posts about 3.4L engine replacements. Gunk clogged up the block passageways. My old man said the accorn does not fall far from the tree! And a 5 spd auto trans, why the poor highway mileage? Like I said, let's wait for an auto rag family sedan comparison where you know it will Bu'/Cord and then the mini-suv: Nox/CRV. I think I know the rankings already. Let's change the name of GM to Next Year. New Ecotec next year. 3900, next year.........
I had a 3.1L back in the 90's and the 3.5L is NOTHING like that. like I said, test one, don't prejudge it. Also the mechanicals are very much revised from the old engines.
As for this 3.4L from China, I'm not sure how it compares to the current 3.4L in say the Grand Am or the Chevy Venture. Hopefully it has been somewhat refined / enhanced. I guess we will have to wait and see. If I hate, I will just go look at a VUE instead. Luckily, GM Visa earnings are good for the VUE in Canada also.
We have Mastercard with GM here in the US and we can't use points for Saturn. The CRV not having a FWD version in Canada is also strange. But you get the nice body colored bumpers. The black plastic bumpers on the CRV is probably the one thing I dislike about the V. We'll have more arguments next year when the Chevy reviews come out Happy Holidays and safe New Year to everyone on the Edmunds board.
Basically if we go cute-ute it will come down to Escape / Tribute, VUE or Equinox. The CR-V's lack of FWD options pulls it out of the running as we don't need AWD. Like you say, we shall have to see how the NOX reviews go. VUE is always there and I like fine.
The Malibu's V6 is night-and-day different from any other GM V6 I've sampled. Hard to believe it has pushrods. Torque is excellent and so is fuel efficiency.
Get those engineers to re-do every single GM engine, I'm not kidding.
Not that you need AWD on Long Island, NY. But having the CRV was a ball with the 12+ inch storms we got this year. We wait 2 days for the plows to come around. Plus going camping upstate NY, Vermont where you hit some muddy dirt/gravel roads. I'll always want to have an AWD mini-ute from now on with 8" of clearance. No bending down into a trunk or into the rear interior of a sedan with car seats. Great road view. All I want is a tad bigger and a powerful motor, The Old CRV's 2L's a dog. The next one needs passing power. Now if I could put the Honda engine in the Nox, I'd gladly pay 2 grand more for a sweet motor like that. A 3.5L I might go for, but I'm afaid since the Nox is labled an '05 nothing will change on it until the '06 model. Can't wait almost 2 years.
Nice having someone in my court. The great mileage could be tranny and final drive ratios also. I never saw any track numbers on the Bu yet. If it's such a great motor, why is made in only one plant and used in one car? Same thing with the Saturn 3.0L, only used on the L series. Bigdaddy, what did you see 'Bu or Nox?
reg: they had a 3.0l Camry V6 and a Sonata V6 along for comparison. It beat those two IMO.
Camry is now getting a 3.3l V6, but I bet it's still a match for that. Accord has more HP but less torque, it would probaly require more revs, I bet the 'bu is better under 4000rpm, the Honda better above that.
The 'bu's V6 is also very efficient. With that torque you don't have to rev it, so for relaxed cruising it's well suited. I think it can hold its own if that's what you want.
It used to be that GM's V6s could only keep up with Honda's 4 cylinders, that's no longer the case.
rctennis3811 : Ok, you take the "VTEC", I'll take the smoother, more fuel efficient and more powerful 3.5L. I'd be happy to pay less for more anyday.
joey : AWD wouldn't go to waste on me, but I can do with out. I'm used to snow and I don't go off road.
reg : Take a 3.5L for a drive. The engine may not be quite as good as the Accord, but it's pretty darn close. Considering the price, it's a screaming deal. Consumer Reports even sees the light.
Smoothness about average. Sound is good. Feel is a big positive, very torquey. NVH about average. It's not gasping for air at high revs, it just doesn't need those high revs to make torque.
Put it this way, it's not an engine for a race car, but it's a good work horse for daily driving, actually carrying an advantage in those situations over the Toyota V6 I tried.
Paying less for more?? Sure the Bu engine may be pretty good, but you're paying less for a RENTAL CAR INTERIOR!?! I'll be happy with a stripped down version of an Accord/Camry/6 anyday.
I know you have not driven an 04 Bu. Now I know you haven't even sat in one. Not sure what a "rental car interior" is, but the Camry must have one also as there are hundreds of those at agencies around Toronto.
Yes, I have sat in one..no I haven't driven one. Tons of plastics make a rental car interior, in case you were wondering. The Camry isn't used as much as a rental car here in the states, so that's probably why Edmunds got that feeling too.
Camry cabs!?! Cabs are usually Windstars, Ventures, Crown Victorias, Caprices, and Impalas. Not Camrys.
Also, the Altima interior is not rental car like. First, you don't see them as rental cars very often. Second, it's too dark. Rental car interior means stark gray...gray gray gray! Either way, the Altima and Malibu have some of the most disappointing interiors I have ever seen. At least the Altima has a good stereo to back it up!
Ok, there are Camry cabs..my mistake. But my point is this: the Malibu doesn't have as good of an interior as the competition. At least the Altima has an award-winning engine, sporty styling, and a Bose sound system to back it up.
Back to the topic:
At least the Equinox will have a better interior than the Bu, at least from what I've seen.
i guess i consider the engine the soul of the car. If given the chance, I'd rather have a good engine than an acceptable one. Its worth it in the long run. 'Good enough' really isn't good enough. For me.
I'm buying a car, not a deal. Deals are good, but I still need to have to actually like the car.
Usually I like to get both, the deal and the car I want.
Reg : "Usually I like to get both, the deal and the car I want" - Don't we all!! ;-)
rctennis3811 : Saw 2 Camry cabs this morning in downtown Toronto. Not as common as the Impala or Crown Vic, but they are out there! Altima interior colors are better, but the Bu has less hard plastic.
Look at the price tag. A 6 cyl. Bu cost the same as a 4 banger Altima. Chevy is selling value, it always has though it's history. The NOX will be the same in some respect.
test blows your theory Dindak. Finished 7th out of 10. Accord #1 as expected. I was suprized the Mazda6 beat out Camry for 2nd. We all know who's gonna finish first in the CRV, Nox, Escape, Liberty, Rav4, etc test.
Wait a minute joey, the Nox might not make it 2nd. The Escape is getting a lot of new features and safety upgrades for 05, including a stiffer chassis. It will have the 201HP V6 (more than the Nox), already excellent side impact scores, new side-curtain airbags, a new interior, and cleaner exterior. It looks like there might be a tie between a Nox and an 05 Escape...
Folks, comparos are just one opinion, or one group of Editors' opinions. So what? Drive them for yourselves and form your own opinion.
Feel free to disagree with them, is all I'm saying. Have you never been surprised during a test drive?
Making conclusions based on someone else's opinions is short-changing yourself of the chance to form your own.
For example, that CR-V has a rear gate that swings open the wrong way, blocking access if you parallel park. And IIHS Bumper Basher inflicted severe damage to the "Poor" bumpers:
I remember testing an Accord and being disappointed. People raved about the car and I thought it was good, but not as good as some people seem to think it is.
You are right, everyone looks for different things in a vehicle and certainly the different between the best and worst vehicles in these comparo tests is smaller than ever.
I think this segment is without a dominant entry. The Vue gets a nice V6, but the styling is a little odd and the interior still doesn't match up with the best.
The Forester XT (turbo) is the performer, but it could still use better tires and the rear seat could be roomier.
Equinox could have been a home run with the Vue Redline's engine, IMO. Even without it, Nox can offer value and interior space. I wish it got a more interesting powertrain, though.
Edmunds and all the car mags will always have class comparisons because none of us have the opportunity to test a bunch of cars together objectively for the same qualities. I think the tests are very fair since a handful of writers put their views into the tally, each with their own likes. The Accord win is another example of a car that did not blow away every other car. It just showed up in the top 3 catagories more then anyone else. We don't know yet if the Nox is loud, slow, or has poor quality. We all have read the reviews on the Gen II CRV and quality, MPG's, interior space, ergonomics, and value will easily shoot it to the top. I would actually prefer the CRV's rear swing door just to get the pop up glass hatch over the one piece NOX/Vue. Let's hope the Nox finishes in the top 3.
I think they can maybe help you narrow it down to a few, but you really have to test drive them.
For instance, what if they didn't get an important feature that you want? Or what if you want the other engine that is available? Things like that can change your impressions substantially.
I was looking through the NOX pre-ordering info and there does not appear to be a remote starter available. Looks like it's a Malibu only option for now.
That's too bad. This should be a standard feature on newly redesigned Chevrolet family targetted vehicles like the Malibu and Equinox. It's one of those "advantages" that Edmunds mentioned in their seventh place ranking for the Malibu. :P
(I have a hard time believing that they ranked it that far back, but then, I can't believe they tested a preproduction car without mentioning it, or that they fail to mention changes between the tested vehicle and final production cars, such as the rear drum to rear disc change..)
Comments
As for the NOX.. wait for a cash back if that's what you have to do. For me, the FWD CR-V is not available here so CR-V is off my list. FWD Nox LT should be around C$29-30K which is about the same as the VUE V6. If I can negotiate 10% off and get a 2-3% finance rate I may just go for it in Sept.
Back to the topic:
Equinox is based on the Epsilon platform, right? Is the Vue also based on that platform?? I'm asking because the upcoming Suzuki Reno is based on the Epsilon platform...
GM has a turbo 4 cyl. engine that gets up to 240 hp in the Saab Aero. Do not follow your point at all about the TSX.
GM will have a 2.4L version of the Ecotec next year producing 170-175hp.
Thanks rctennis.
Dindak: I'd still take an engine with the racing components like VVT. The CRV's got dual balance shafts, probabaly smother then the 3.5L I had that same 3.4/3.5 as a 3.1 in a Chevy back in '92. It was loud, shaked, leaked oil, and and had poor gas mileage. I'll expect the same until I hear otherwise if I get a Nox. Checkout the old boards on Edmunds: The GM mini-van, Aztek, Rendezvous. etc. All have posts about 3.4L engine replacements. Gunk clogged up the block passageways. My old man said the accorn does not fall far from the tree! And a 5 spd auto trans, why the poor highway mileage? Like I said, let's wait for an auto rag family sedan comparison where you know it will Bu'/Cord and then the mini-suv: Nox/CRV. I think I know the rankings already. Let's change the name of GM to Next Year.
New Ecotec next year. 3900, next year.........
As for this 3.4L from China, I'm not sure how it compares to the current 3.4L in say the Grand Am or the Chevy Venture. Hopefully it has been somewhat refined / enhanced. I guess we will have to wait and see. If I hate, I will just go look at a VUE instead. Luckily, GM Visa earnings are good for the VUE in Canada also.
Get those engineers to re-do every single GM engine, I'm not kidding.
-juice
So is it JUST AS GOOD as a Nissan or Honda v6? That is the ultimate question.
"Get those engineers to re-do every single GM engine, I'm not kidding"
Why don't they settle on a couple different engine designs instead of having 20 different versions of the same low tech stuff.
Car buyers don't care if the engineers in michigan need a redundant project to work on.
Bigdaddy, what did you see 'Bu or Nox?
Camry is now getting a 3.3l V6, but I bet it's still a match for that. Accord has more HP but less torque, it would probaly require more revs, I bet the 'bu is better under 4000rpm, the Honda better above that.
The 'bu's V6 is also very efficient. With that torque you don't have to rev it, so for relaxed cruising it's well suited. I think it can hold its own if that's what you want.
It used to be that GM's V6s could only keep up with Honda's 4 cylinders, that's no longer the case.
-juice
joey : AWD wouldn't go to waste on me, but I can do with out. I'm used to snow and I don't go off road.
reg : Take a 3.5L for a drive. The engine may not be quite as good as the Accord, but it's pretty darn close. Considering the price, it's a screaming deal. Consumer Reports even sees the light.
Put it this way, it's not an engine for a race car, but it's a good work horse for daily driving, actually carrying an advantage in those situations over the Toyota V6 I tried.
-juice
-juice
I've seen plenty of Camry rentals and cabs in the U.S. Look around.
Also, the Altima interior is not rental car like. First, you don't see them as rental cars very often. Second, it's too dark. Rental car interior means stark gray...gray gray gray! Either way, the Altima and Malibu have some of the most disappointing interiors I have ever seen. At least the Altima has a good stereo to back it up!
Camry cabs are not as common as the rwd sedans you mention, but I have seen them in San Francisco, New York and Chicago.
I am thinking you do not travel much.
Back to the topic:
At least the Equinox will have a better interior than the Bu, at least from what I've seen.
i guess i consider the engine the soul of the car. If given the chance, I'd rather have a good engine than an acceptable one. Its worth it in the long run. 'Good enough' really isn't good enough. For me.
I'm buying a car, not a deal. Deals are good, but I still need to have to actually like the car.
Usually I like to get both, the deal and the car I want.
-juice
rctennis3811 : Saw 2 Camry cabs this morning in downtown Toronto. Not as common as the Impala or Crown Vic, but they are out there! Altima interior colors are better, but the Bu has less hard plastic.
The V6 Accord costs thousands more than the Bu.
rctennis3811 : Escape is a nice truck right near the top of the heap. It could be #1 but Edmunds will go Honda. Escape will be 2-3
Feel free to disagree with them, is all I'm saying. Have you never been surprised during a test drive?
Making conclusions based on someone else's opinions is short-changing yourself of the chance to form your own.
For example, that CR-V has a rear gate that swings open the wrong way, blocking access if you parallel park. And IIHS Bumper Basher inflicted severe damage to the "Poor" bumpers:
http://www.highwaysafety.org/vehicle_ratings/low_speed_smsuv.htm
Cabin noise is also a bit high. Maybe those are trade-offs you can live with, maybe not.
Just my 2 cents' worth.
-juice
You are right, everyone looks for different things in a vehicle and certainly the different between the best and worst vehicles in these comparo tests is smaller than ever.
The Forester XT (turbo) is the performer, but it could still use better tires and the rear seat could be roomier.
Equinox could have been a home run with the Vue Redline's engine, IMO. Even without it, Nox can offer value and interior space. I wish it got a more interesting powertrain, though.
-juice
For instance, what if they didn't get an important feature that you want? Or what if you want the other engine that is available? Things like that can change your impressions substantially.
-juice
:-(
(I have a hard time believing that they ranked it that far back, but then, I can't believe they tested a preproduction car without mentioning it, or that they fail to mention changes between the tested vehicle and final production cars, such as the rear drum to rear disc change..)