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I was wondering if anybody had read anything (or had any real-life experiences!) about the xB's ability/inability to roll over. This car looks good to me but probably has a higher center of gravity than the usual sedan that I drive.
Scion distribution model is to have vehicles in regional pools and not dealership inventory. The supply at dealerships is supposed to be minimal. Scion options are limited to transmission, color and side airbags on the Xa at time of manufacture. The idea is that the vehicles can be rapidly delivered to order to dealerships and all options installed at dealer or pool location.
feels every bit as secure as any other regular econobox i've driven in the past. it isn't particularly top-heavy, though it really looks that way. remember that this car is about as low to the ground as a corolla, and it doesn't ride as high up as most mini SUV's.
that alone makes the car more stable. i've driven the xB through lots of canyon roads, and i've never worried about it being particularly rollover-sensitive compared to other econoboxes.
Which is one of the features being promoted for SUV's to reduce roll-over risk.
You can roll anything. Even a Miata. But my Xa feels just fine, even without stability control. Also the govt. does a mathematical test based on wheelbase etc. to calculate rollover risk, and the Xa and Xb are rated as low rollover risk.
Many thanks to those who took the time to answer my roll over question. The more I hear about the xB the more I think it is the car for me.
I guess I also have a second question, do you think there is any room at all for negotiation with the dealership, given that they are following the Saturn model for selling?
Not likely, not for a while at least. Just focus on getting the options and color you want.
Look at the big picture, what other roomy wagon can you get for $14k and change with stability control?
The price is reasonable to begin with. Unlike, say, GM. Look at the MSRP of the Vibe, it's absurd, especially for AWD models, which can go well over $20 grand.
So they offer huge rebates, huge discounts, and ... and the price is still a few grand higher, because that price was just padded to begin with.
You can try to attempt negotiation on price. What is the worst thing that can happen? Failure. The pricing is so attractive on the Scion at MSRP that I really can not think of any other vehicle sold in the US that is competitive with the Scion Xb. Buying a Scion is like robbing a bank;)
Guys, thanks for the tips. I'm going to give the xB a test drive at the weekend. Do I need to color my hair, take the belt off my jeans and call everyone dude to be allowed a test drive?
Scions are not a "fixed price" offering. They are sold with a "posted price" method. A dealer can ask any price they want, but are required to post that price and sell to everyone for that price. I was told that Scion audits the deal and makes sure the dealers are charging their "posted" prices. Like any car, shop around and compare prices, the prices may differ, but they won't, and aren't allowed, to budge.
That's exactly how Scion wants it. They can't control what the dealers charge but can make them sell them for the posted prices with no games. The problem is that people will think the prices are the same everywhere and not comparison shop.
No quality control, assembly, or mechanical issues.
Interior finishes make it look like a micro Lexus, not a descendant of the Tercel / Echo line.
Handling is outstanding - the initial harshness of the ride has disappeared as the struts break in.
Absolutely positively no sensitivity to cross winds or semi truck passing, due to the suspension.
No hint whatsoever of the Echo in this car - although the basic platform is the same. Shows what attention to detail can do.
Great pickup with a stick. High freeway RPM's, but the motor is so smooth you don't notice.
I don't know if I would have bought the xB instead if I had it to do over again. Each vehicle has their charms. Personally I think the xB is THE way to go if you are going to regularly have four people in the car, but doesn't add much over the xA in terms of behind the seat luggage space. Both cars are ample with the rear seat flat. (Although Andergtr clearly needs all the extra space provided by the xB for his music gear.)
I think the extra money on the xB is well spent just in terms of options (stability control) although VW is now making stability control available as a $400 option on the Golf. When you consider the "cool factor" the xB is about $5,000 under valued. (At list, without $2,000 worth of dealer add on wheels.)
My 2 cents. Cross posting here due to lack of enthusiast interest on the xA board. Mechanicals are mostly the same on both vehicles.
If you consider what Alec Issigionis (spelling?) was trying to accomplish with the original Mini - an ultrafunctional people mover - in some ways the xA and xB fit the criteria better than the "nostalgia Mini" from BMW.
After all, the Scions are very short and narrow, thus easy to park and maneuver through narrow streets. Yet, the upright seating position and tall configuration (esp. in the xB) allow maximum passenger room, much more than in the Mini.
Finally, the taller seating postion is something I think Alec would have implemented in today's era of tall SUV's vs. the Mini's era of squat sporty cars.
<andergtr> the problem is that MP3 sound quality is awful. if you use something like roxio easy CD creator to convert MP3 files to WAV file format and then burn THAT onto a CD, the sound quality is light years better. </andergtr> This is wrong. Well, unless CD player of xB has much worse codec than roxio has, which I really doubt. And you cannot increase quality just recoding MP3 back to WAV.
All xBs that I've seen had MP3 player. It even shows ID3 tags, though somewhat ugly.
Obviously the Scion doesn't have the brute power but it's a blast to drive!
It reminds me of an older Miata - Fun! Kind of like driving a go-cart. Certainly not over-powered but very balanced. Especially when you get rid of the little factory wheels and tires.
Not fast, but it has adequate power. It has a light nimble feel. Not the kind that makes you want to drag race, but the kind that makes you want to weave in and out of traffic to avoid the big slow cars.
So, you won't lose your license for "exhibition of speed"-- you'll lose it for reckless driving.
An automotive magazine is looking to interview drivers of the Scion xB. Please send your daytime contact information to jfallon@edmunds.com by Monday, November 17, 2003.
I came across a set of 17" Prime wheels with 215-45-17 Falken Tires. I've been impressed with the Falkens, they are quiet and smooth and handle great. I'll put up a pitcure when I get them on.
i love my xB, but one problem has been really plaguing it, and it's unfortunately not a minor one.
on five or six occasions over the 4900 miles i've driven the car, the car has stalled while still in motion and not in gear. every single time, this occurred when i took my foot off the gas pedal and was either coasting or braking to a stop. three times this occurred on the freeway coming off an offramp, and the other times occurred when i was driving on city streets.
i've been to keyes scion three times now with this issue, and i've spoken with aaron at scion corporate. aaron has been very persistent in trying to find a solution, but each time the dealer has only kept the car for a 24-hour period and found nothing. the last time, the factory even sent a scion specialist, and they found nothing. they replaced a part in the EFI with a known working part, and that didn't solve the problem.
i love the car in every other respect, but this is a nagging issue--not to mention one of safety. i know that at least one other person on the scionlife.com board has had this same issue, but like me, they have been unable to duplicate the problem.
i have suggested to scion that they keep the car for a month. when you have five or six stalls in an almost-5000-mile period, keeping it for a day probably isn't going to cause the problem to recur. scion is reluctant to do this, largely because they don't want to eat the cost of giving me a rental/loaner for that month.
aaron at scion is very focused on finding a solution, but what are my options if we keep going through this drill every 1000 miles or so? at some point the warranty runs out. i'm thinking i just have a lemon. has anyone else ever had this issue, and if so, what did you do about it?
thanks in advance. hopefully there is some light at the end of this one, and hopefully you will be able to read about scion's exemplary customer service instead of the dealer trying to wash his hands clean of a problem he can't locate but which definitely exists.
I'm sorry to hear, that in your case so far, Scion has not performed to the expectations of Toyota! My uncle had a problem with his 4runner, and he given full retail for his 4Runner (he bought a slighlty used LandCruiser with that money + a little bit of his own)! Clearly, in this case, you have met criteria #2 (see below) of the California Lemon Law [I believe most states are similar]. I would simply contact your salesman and let him know that according to the law, they have 30days from the time your car was last in the shop to resolve the problem [whether that be repair, replacement or repurchase]! Please keep us all informed as to Scion's resolution! I know that I might reconsider whether to purchase a Scion when they come to Michigan if Scion does not stand by their cars the way Toyota does!!!
California Definition of Lemon Law Responsibility: # Manufacturer�s obligation to repurchase or replace
If the manufacturer or its representative is unable to service or repair a new motor vehicle to conform to the applicable express warranties after a reasonable number of attempts, the manufacturer must either promptly replace or repurchase the motor vehicle. The consumer is free to elect repurchase in lieu of replacement; in no event may the manufacturer require a consumer to accept a replacement vehicle.
# Criteria for reasonable number of repair attempts
Presumed if, within 18 months after delivery to the consumer or 18,000 miles on the odometer, whichever occurs first:
1. The same nonconformity results in a condition that is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if the vehicle is driven, and the nonconformity has been subject to repair two or more times, and the consumer has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for repair; 2. The same nonconformity has been subject to repair four or more times and the consumer has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for repair; or 3. The vehicle is out of service by reason of repair of nonconformities for more than 30 calendar days since delivery.
An old girlfriend in high school used to take turns in neutral, coasting for long periods, I had to teach her to use 2nd for turns, 3rd for highway ramps.
in every instance but one, i was slowing down and had downshifted from fifth to fourth to third. typically at the end of the stop (when the car is hitting about 20 mph), i will go from third to neutral instead of downshifting to second.
Did the car just kind of "die" like the rpm was too low, or did any of the electrics go weird on you? I had some odd problems with my former VW, loss of power - but the check engine light came on.
I had a Toyota pick up that would sometimes stall during "long shifts" They had to replace some air bleeder valve that regulates the vacuum during abrupt changes in throttle. It's supposed to let the RPM's quickly drop but it was doing it's job too well.
i had been driving at 15 to 20 minutes each time, so it wasn't that.
the first time i noticed it, i felt the steering go heavy, and all the lights on the center pod were on. the car was still moving, and i basically had to restart the car while it was moving by keeping it in neutral.
I had a similar problem with my 1990 Civic where the engine would just die while I was driving. They said it was a problem with the igniter and replaced it.
i've driven stick for years in a variety of cars, and there is DEFINITELY an issue with this particular xB. the car should never stall out while you're moving, unless you are in a gear that is too high for your speed (e.g. being in fifth gear at 25 mph).
hopefully, scion will take care of this issue. so far the stalling hasn't reared its head again.
Comments
http://www.thehollywoodextra.com
Go to the Vince Burlapp car page.
So the supply/demand curve still favors dealers, for now. Scion has asked for them to double production before they go nationwide.
-juice
I was wondering if anybody had read anything (or had any real-life experiences!) about the xB's ability/inability to roll over. This car looks good to me but probably has a higher center of gravity than the usual sedan that I drive.
Any comments would be greatly appreciated.
Kenners
Scion options are limited to transmission, color and side airbags on the Xa at time of manufacture. The idea is that the vehicles can be rapidly delivered to order to dealerships and all options installed at dealer or pool location.
that alone makes the car more stable. i've driven the xB through lots of canyon roads, and i've never worried about it being particularly rollover-sensitive compared to other econoboxes.
-juice
You can roll anything. Even a Miata. But my Xa feels just fine, even without stability control. Also the govt. does a mathematical test based on wheelbase etc. to calculate rollover risk, and the Xa and Xb are rated as low rollover risk.
-juice
I guess I also have a second question, do you think there is any room at all for negotiation with the dealership, given that they are following the Saturn model for selling?
Thanks,
Kenners
Look at the big picture, what other roomy wagon can you get for $14k and change with stability control?
The price is reasonable to begin with. Unlike, say, GM. Look at the MSRP of the Vibe, it's absurd, especially for AWD models, which can go well over $20 grand.
So they offer huge rebates, huge discounts, and ... and the price is still a few grand higher, because that price was just padded to begin with.
-juice
The pricing is so attractive on the Scion at MSRP that I really can not think of any other vehicle sold in the US that is competitive with the Scion Xb. Buying a Scion is like robbing a bank;)
Kenners
-juice
A dealer can ask any price they want, but are required to post that price and sell to everyone for that price.
I was told that Scion audits the deal and makes sure the dealers are charging their "posted" prices.
Like any car, shop around and compare prices, the prices may differ, but they won't, and aren't allowed, to budge.
The problem is that people will think the prices are the same everywhere and not comparison shop.
-juice
Runs like a Swiss watch.
No quality control, assembly, or mechanical issues.
Interior finishes make it look like a micro Lexus, not a descendant of the Tercel / Echo line.
Handling is outstanding - the initial harshness of the ride has disappeared as the struts break in.
Absolutely positively no sensitivity to cross winds or semi truck passing, due to the suspension.
No hint whatsoever of the Echo in this car - although the basic platform is the same. Shows what attention to detail can do.
Great pickup with a stick. High freeway RPM's, but the motor is so smooth you don't notice.
I don't know if I would have bought the xB instead if I had it to do over again. Each vehicle has their charms. Personally I think the xB is THE way to go if you are going to regularly have four people in the car, but doesn't add much over the xA in terms of behind the seat luggage space. Both cars are ample with the rear seat flat. (Although Andergtr clearly needs all the extra space provided by the xB for his music gear.)
I think the extra money on the xB is well spent just in terms of options (stability control) although VW is now making stability control available as a $400 option on the Golf. When you consider the "cool factor" the xB is about $5,000 under valued. (At list, without $2,000 worth of dealer add on wheels.)
My 2 cents. Cross posting here due to lack of enthusiast interest on the xA board. Mechanicals are mostly the same on both vehicles.
After all, the Scions are very short and narrow, thus easy to park and maneuver through narrow streets. Yet, the upright seating position and tall configuration (esp. in the xB) allow maximum passenger room, much more than in the Mini.
Finally, the taller seating postion is something I think Alec would have implemented in today's era of tall SUV's vs. the Mini's era of squat sporty cars.
What do you think?
The xB doesn't have that problem. That back seat fits 2 even with the front seats all the way back.
But...I'll reserve final judgement until I get to drive one, it also has to be fun and tossable.
-juice
the problem is that MP3 sound quality is awful. if you use something like roxio easy CD creator to convert MP3 files to WAV file format and then burn THAT onto a CD, the sound quality is light years better.
</andergtr>
This is wrong. Well, unless CD player of xB has much worse codec than roxio has, which I really doubt. And you cannot increase quality just recoding MP3 back to WAV.
All xBs that I've seen had MP3 player. It even shows ID3 tags, though somewhat ugly.
Obviously the Scion doesn't have the brute power but it's a blast to drive!
It reminds me of an older Miata - Fun!
Kind of like driving a go-cart. Certainly not over-powered but very balanced. Especially when you get rid of the little factory wheels and tires.
-juice
Not fast, but it has adequate power.
It has a light nimble feel. Not the kind that makes you want to drag race, but the kind that makes you want to weave in and out of traffic to avoid the big slow cars.
So, you won't lose your license for "exhibition of speed"-- you'll lose it for reckless driving.
They are Prime 16x7 with Falken ZE-512 205/45-16 tires.
They made a big improvement in the responsiveness of handling with out much of a sacrifice in ride.
The stock tires were very soft, squishy and eager to squeal.
What are your new wheels going to be?
I've been impressed with the Falkens, they are quiet and smooth and handle great.
I'll put up a pitcure when I get them on.
-juice
on five or six occasions over the 4900 miles i've driven the car, the car has stalled while still in motion and not in gear. every single time, this occurred when i took my foot off the gas pedal and was either coasting or braking to a stop. three times this occurred on the freeway coming off an offramp, and the other times occurred when i was driving on city streets.
i've been to keyes scion three times now with this issue, and i've spoken with aaron at scion corporate. aaron has been very persistent in trying to find a solution, but each time the dealer has only kept the car for a 24-hour period and found nothing. the last time, the factory even sent a scion specialist, and they found nothing. they replaced a part in the EFI with a known working part, and that didn't solve the problem.
i love the car in every other respect, but this is a nagging issue--not to mention one of safety. i know that at least one other person on the scionlife.com board has had this same issue, but like me, they have been unable to duplicate the problem.
i have suggested to scion that they keep the car for a month. when you have five or six stalls in an almost-5000-mile period, keeping it for a day probably isn't going to cause the problem to recur. scion is reluctant to do this, largely because they don't want to eat the cost of giving me a rental/loaner for that month.
aaron at scion is very focused on finding a solution, but what are my options if we keep going through this drill every 1000 miles or so? at some point the warranty runs out. i'm thinking i just have a lemon. has anyone else ever had this issue, and if so, what did you do about it?
thanks in advance. hopefully there is some light at the end of this one, and hopefully you will be able to read about scion's exemplary customer service instead of the dealer trying to wash his hands clean of a problem he can't locate but which definitely exists.
California Definition of Lemon Law Responsibility:
# Manufacturer�s obligation to repurchase or replace
If the manufacturer or its representative is unable to service or repair a new motor vehicle to conform to the applicable express warranties after a reasonable number of attempts, the manufacturer must either promptly replace or repurchase the motor vehicle. The consumer is free to elect repurchase in lieu of replacement; in no event may the manufacturer require a consumer to accept a replacement vehicle.
# Criteria for reasonable number of repair attempts
Presumed if, within 18 months after delivery to the consumer or 18,000 miles on the odometer, whichever occurs first:
1. The same nonconformity results in a condition that is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury if the vehicle is driven, and the nonconformity has been subject to repair two or more times, and the consumer has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for repair;
2. The same nonconformity has been subject to repair four or more times and the consumer has at least once directly notified the manufacturer of the need for repair; or
3. The vehicle is out of service by reason of repair of nonconformities for more than 30 calendar days since delivery.
the great thing about a board like this is that there is very good transfer of information. hopefully scion will do the right thing.
Are you coasting? Why?
-juice
Despite what "Scion" is trying to make you believe, it is not a separate division, like Lexus is.
It is titled, registered and insured as a Toyota.
An old girlfriend in high school used to take turns in neutral, coasting for long periods, I had to teach her to use 2nd for turns, 3rd for highway ramps.
-juice
this is when the car stalled out.
john ou
-juice
They had to replace some air bleeder valve that regulates the vacuum during abrupt changes in throttle.
It's supposed to let the RPM's quickly drop but it was doing it's job too well.
the first time i noticed it, i felt the steering go heavy, and all the lights on the center pod were on. the car was still moving, and i basically had to restart the car while it was moving by keeping it in neutral.
hopefully, scion will take care of this issue. so far the stalling hasn't reared its head again.