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High pressures, direct injection, high compression and valve technology in the engine, clean fuel and advanced catylysts behind engine are what allow high performance and low emissions on diesel. Common rail is just a delivery method for the fuel. A common rail or unit injectors both accomplish pressurizing the fuel for injectors. Neither is superior. Both are available in US with current fuel. Cummins in the Ram diesel is common rail, VW offers unit injector, Ford Powerstroke is common rail, Dodge Sprinter Van has diesel MB engine with common rail and a few others. They are already available in North America in Canada and US and they work with the high sulfur fuel. They will have much lower emissions with low sulfur fuel. It will not be mandated until 2006, not 2004 as you stated.
Are you simply restating what you read or do you have an actual understanding and experience with these engines?
Also, posting a link to another automotive forum is against Edmunds rules and will get you into trouble with the host. FYI.
Apparently I'm confusing a technology for engine performance and efficiency for a technology that promotes cleanliness (common rail and cleaner emissions).
From dieselfuel.org (that's not a link so that's ok right?) I can see that basically without low-sulphur fuel there is no clean diesel when compared to petroleum engines.
Quote: "With the introduction of lower sulphur diesel fuel, a number of exhaust treatment systems can further reduce emissions from diesel engines.
Particulate Traps - These filters collect particulate matter as the exhaust gases pass through and can reduce particulate emissions by 80-90% using a catalytic reaction or an auxiliary heating element.
Catalytic Converters - These devices use a chemical reaction to convert emissions into harmless substances. Some catalysts - such as selective catalytic reduction (SCR) devices and NOx absorbers - focus on nitrogen oxides and can reduce these emissions by 25-50%. "
I have driven so called "modern" diesel engines in europe and can only say unscientifically that they do not seem cleaner (either by smell or visual exhuast). However, I don't think european models have particulate traps or catalytic converters.
Emissions that all recip engines produce that are of a concern and that are measured include NOx, CO, Hydrocarbons, SOx, and particulates. All of these can be reduced by a primary or secondary means. Primary reduction is done by engine design. Secondary is accomplished outside the engine. A couple of examples of NOx reduction as a primary means would be exhaust gas recirculation and high compression ratio. A secondary means would be an SCR or catalyst. Gas engines emit different amounts of the emissions listed as compared to the diesel engines. So there is some politics involved as to say what is the emission(s) that should be reduced and even scientists don't necessarily agree as to which is the worst emissions and which should be of primary concern.
Greenhouse gas emissions as provided by EPA (3.1 is best 15.3 is worst)
Volkswagen Jetta TDI is 5.1 tons annual
Mazda Protege 2.0 is 7.0 tons annual
The gasoline vehicle produces MORE greenhouse gas emissions and uses much more fuel per mile traveled than VW Jetta TDI.
Passat TDI should prove a better choice compared to many of it's midsize competitors. More MPG and less greenhouse gasses.
The Passat TDI is still scheduled to arrive by end of March.
Pricing/options is available from your local dealer, some may even take a "pre-order".
BTW, there is a recent article regarding the new particulate filter and low emissions on the new TDI, check out vwvortex.com.
Does anyone know what what mileage the Passat will get on the city/highway ?
Why is VW introducing a 2004 car only 4-5 months before the 2005 car will arrive ? I'm hoping for serious discounts on the 2004 when the 2005 arrive especially in a town that hates diesel.
Are there any reliability concerns with this second generation diesel ? I had a 1982 diesel jetta that was indestructible and got 50 mph on the freeway, but was noisy, smelly and woefully underpowered. It seems the new diesels have cured the traditional problems with diesels. I'm wondering if they will still be indestructible.
Any idea of gas mileage numbers ?
I'd estimate 28 mpg city and 38 mpg highway for the Passat TDI. Will have to wait for the official numbers.
They should have built it a long time ago, didn't see demand for it I guess
VW, Audi, BMW and Mercedes have a variety of high performance diesel engines available in Europe. The main reason we don't see them is because of our high sulfer diesel fuel - this should be corrected by 2006 when federal law mandates low sulfer diesel in the U.S..
I have an 03 Jetta TDI wagon with an automatic that has made me a diesel fanatic. I'm definately planning to trade my 01 X5 for the next generation Passat TDI wagon in a couple years.
Interesting.
8.7 l/100 kms city ( 32 mpg imperial or about 27mpg U.S.)
5.7 l/100 kms highway( 50 mpg imperial or about 42 mpg U.S.)
I have found in the past that the converted figures are almost identical to the official U.S.figures when they come out.
As for actually purchasing a TDI Passat - the main reason I won't consider the current Passat TDI is the next generation Passat will be here in a year or so and I can wait. The next generation Passat has a 2" longer wheelbase that's all in the back seat - huge incentive to wait.
It looks exactly like the other passats inside, but under the hood has the longitudinal engine with a big engine cover with cross-wise ridges mimicking an intake manifold.
The engine is very compact .... you can see the wheels and ground past the engine ... not a totally jammed engine compartment like the Audi S4-Avant and RS6 that I checked out too.
But they're still not expecting official delivery until June for regular orders.
BTW: The Audi dealers claim they'll be selling diesel A4s and maybe A6s as 2005 models late this year. And I filled out a questionaire on diesel powerplants that asked (amongst other things) "how much of a premium would you pay for a diesel powered vehicle" ... but this wasn't VW or Audi ... it was BMW doing the poll! Plus Mercedes is taking orders on the diesel-powered SMART cars they'll be delivering in September.
I'm surprised that 24% of Golf sales are TDIs in the US.
Did you see the report (10 months ago) "Ricardo reports first significant signs of Americans buying diesel cars" here http://www.ricardo.com/mediaCentre/newsArticle.asp?id=114&sec- tor=4 ???
It looks like diesel awareness is spreading.
Does anyone know how the diesel Jeep Liberty is selling?
As for the Liberty, I don't think it's available yet. I did some searches (including jeep.com) and couldn't find anything but reviews - but not from consumers. I got the impression that it won't be available til this fall, but I could easily be mistaken.
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RE Chrysler 300 ... I was wondering if you had one of those and watched for a wrecked Sprinter van to sourche the 2.7 CDI engine, then once the DC warantee runs out the turbo-diesel should just bolt up to the tranny (although motor mounts and exhaust & coolant plumbing may have to be customized).....
How is your Passat TDI Wagon? How long have you had it? It has been a while since you ordered it in March of 2003. I feel cheated in the US since we still do not have the Passat TDI and you have had them since Sept. 2003 in Canada.
This would have made my 5th VW and my 3rd Diesel.....sorry I am going to defect to the Hybrid crowd... HYBRIDVORTEX just doesn't have a ring to it.....
However, you'd better be prepared to be patient in taking delivery of a Prius - in many parts of the country, a realistic estimate is 12-18 months depending on what options and color you're willing to settle for, with no sign that supply is going to catch up with demand any time soon.
I wouldn't be concerned about problems with a Passat diesel, I had a 2000 Passat 1.8t that never gave me a single problem in 60k miles and now this 03 TDI Jetta wagon has 15k miles with no problems what-so-ever. Plus the diesel engine in the Passat isn't new, it's been available in Europe for years.
I'm not about to trade the 03 for the Passat TDI, I know I wouldn't be happy with the trade $$ and the Jetta is fine for now. I'm waiting for the next generation Passat TDI wagon to come out in late 05 or 06 - I'll be all over that.
The Prius is a fantastic package, interior room is amazing. I'd still wait for some other version of Toyota's Hybrid technology like the Highlander. I need more cargo room than the Prius provides - a hybrid Highlander would be perfect.
What would really be cool is if VW made a diesel hybrid - 90 MPG!
I settled on the Jetta for a couple of reasons:
1. I will be doing more highway driving than in-town and in-town is where the hybrids really shine mileage wise.
2. I just don't trust the hybrid engines yet. I'm sure they are good quality - and Toyota / Honda has a good reputation - but I really question how these small, small engines will stand up to 80k, 100k, 150k miles. I just can't see these as serious, high mile commuter vehicles.
Maybe in 5 years I'll be proved wrong - but I think it will be that long before this technology proves itself.
In my opinion I could not justify buying any Passat other than the TDI. It is simply the best value if you are buying a VW.
It appears that the TDI will be 50 states certified again. The TDI and other diesels will perform better and with much, much lower emissions with ULSD diesel is mandated in 2006. <15ppm sulfur and higher cetane is win-win.
Currently we have a 2 valve per cylinder head on the PD TDI in the Passat that is offered in North America and Europe uses a 4 valve head. The differences between the Europe and NA engines will almost certainly disappear and we will have equal performance then. VW is making compromises on current TDI engines in order to meet emissions regulations with the current dirty high sulfur diesel.
Expect to see other manufacturers introduce diesel cars and possibly light trucks with diesel in 2006. Ford is rumored to have a 1/2 ton diesel, Focus diesel and at least one other diesel ready for 2006 when the low sulfur fuel is here. Diamler already has approved diesel programs for most of Jeep and Chrysler export vehicles and will most likely offer the diesel versions in North America if their test of the Liberty diesel 2005 is favorable.
Should you wait...only time will tell. I'll say this, resale on VW TDI is fantastic, so if you do buy now you could get a 2006 without losing much.
The biodiesel idea is really interesting - people are running their diesels on recyled fast food frying oil and they run great on it. Do a google on biodiesel, very interesting reading. Plus if you like the way McDonanalds french fries smell you really like it because that's how a biodiesel exhaust smells.
Salesguy said they are selling at a little below sticker ... whatever that means. He was intentionally vague as to when the new Passat body style was coming out. My guess is that he knows exactly when, but doesn't want to cut himself off at the knees trying to sell a car with only 1.5 years left on the body style.
Sticker is around $25,000. Newspapers ads are selling 4 cylinder gasoline Passat GLs for $18,000.
Because Houston is not a diesel town, I'm planning on waiting a little bit to gauge low demand and make a lowball offer in a few months. I'll post my thoughts on the performance of the car this weekend.
I'm interested in testing the TDI Passat, but like you, I'll be waiting until the next generation comes out before I'd consider trading the Jetta.
The only way around it is to buy used...right?
Thanks
The most interesting thing is that you don't have to drive it a certain way. I don't think about how I drive it, I just drive it - floor it to pass and getting on the highway - I don't baby it and it returns awesome mileage.
As an engineer, I was strongly in favour of hybrid vehicles 2 decades ago. But seeing how they are implemented, it is a simple scientific fact that if every car in the US were replaced by a hybrid it would cause the largest environmental disaster in the history of this planet.
But we're safe.
It can't happen because there are not enough rare metals for the motors or rare/toxic/carcinogenic materials used in the batteries to build that many of these toys.
Although some might argue that the massive pollution & energy cost (& environmental destruction) caused by the mining of the rare-earth metals used to manufacture these vehicles isn't a problem because we're just killing human and animal life on other continents, that is not true either -- because the pollution of the air and oceans eventually affects north america.
Diesel engines built from cast-iron blocks with iron turbo housings and exhaust manifolds are the gentlest on our planet in terms of the creation of materials ... which is a huge but over-looked issue when buying a new vehicle (or a few tons of high-tech anything).
And because diesels are so energy efficient, there is less demand for aluminum and other environmentally costly materials. Saving weight is not so important if your car gets 60 MPG on the highway (which the VW Lupo TDI does ... too bad we can't buy them in North America)
BTW: The slowest cars that I see on I-5 between Seattle and Canada are almost always hybrids. I personally do not think it safe to drive 10 to 15 MPH slower than the rest of the traffic.
Sadly, once you leave the city and deplete your batteries, your techno-wonder hybrid is just an over-weight, under-powered vehicle that consumed more resources in its creation than a few dozen "normal" cars.