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Ask your mechanic if his income is going down. Ford flat rate slashing caused older mechanics to pack it in and customers like me to travel a fifty mile radius to find help. DC, I believe, is the last of the three to hit the mechanics pocketbooks. Why do I want to spend three hours on your car and get paid for 20 minutes, buy my own tools and health insurance.
I asked one of two CRD trained mechanics at the dealership at my first trip back about some items while he was rebuilding a new gasser's engine. He said this Jeep/Chrysler shop has got so many models that it is not possible to keep up with everything.
Winter2 posted his dealer's name, he's fortunate.. I'm sorry you don't have any options. Soon a lot of us won't either.
I had the same problem. The solution was to reprogram the computer and replace the EGR. After that it was back to excellent performace.
Will Museler
I found this on another bulletin board/blog. These are a group of TSB's released by DC. Hope this is helpful.
From alldata:
18-009-05 (Engine Controls - Hard Start in Extreme Cold Conditions) Build date cutoff February 20, 2005 (MDH 0220XX).
18-018-05 (Engine Controls - Engine Run-Up on Hot Re-Start) Build date cutoff May 15, 2005 (MDH 0515XX).
Not listed on alldata, but found this over on jeepsunlimited.com
18-007-05 (Improved DrDrivabilitynd Erroneous DTC's) Build date cutoff February 13, 2005 (MDH 0213XX).
I believe the last one is for the stumbling issue, but would like someone to clarify this as it says it applies to export models (2005 KJ Cherokee International Markets) only.
The build date (MDH-month day hour) is on a white label located on the drivers door. An example: 011610 = January 16 10th hr.
Definately needs a skid plate over that oil filter. I don't think I would of road at all.
Here some common rail diesels produce black smoke, some don't. I've read that the worst valves were the Bosch. Jeep uses these according to the VM Motori brochure. The way these are built makes me believe you can service them, or disconnect them (closed) if you have a problem on the road.
I have a Toyota Corolla diesel that's almost 10 years old. The only electronics this car has is the radio that came with it! It has a catalyser without EGR and it does not smoke nor smell. This thing burnt all kinds of fuels from different countries and never ever complained. This is why I don't correlate smoke with fuel.
In any event, whether driving my CRD or my Isuzu, I noticed a difference in engine performance, level of noise/vibration depending on where I purchased my fuel. On the Isuzu, it would smoke more with certain brands of diesel fuel then with others. On the CRD, I get the best performance and smoothest running on Shell, while other brands give more noise, vibration and slightly less performance.
As for EGR valve failure, my guess is that I will eventually have to replace the EGR valve on the CRD. In a previous posting, you mentioned Siemens. I believe you stated that they had a superior product. I wonder if the EGR valve in the european CRD is the same one that is used in the U.S. version? If so, I wonder how difficult it would be to get the Siemans part here?
As to your Corolla, I am sure it would be having difficulties if it was electronically controlled. If the CRD diesel could run without all of the controls placed on it, I am sure it would as run as reliably as the Corolla.
As to the Amsoil issue, I still chuckle when I read your comments. I run Amsoil in our Sears lawnmower that has a Briggs & Stratton engine and my in wife's Chrysler. I ran it in my Dodge Dakota for twelve years and not one issue. The engine was spotless after 125K miles. Their other lubricants, fuel additives, and greases are quite good too.
-Crankshaft position sensing
-Camshaft position sensing
These two signals should be checking for a broken timing belt. Too late to stop anyway...
-Negative turbo pressure signal
This one checks for minimal intake operating pressure. Not enough pressure, needs to inject less fuel. Could also be a loose EGR connection. In this case you have a whisler under the hood.
Thanks to this forum I hope my heat trouble is fixed. I'll know for sure when my camping trailer is delivered in a few weeks and go for a test drive.
The Exhaust Gas Recirculation valve opens a port between the exhaust manifold and the intake manifold. This will only occur when the engine is at operating temp and above idle. Usually about 1500-2000 rpm.
Now Why in the world would you want to pollute your clean air intake with exhaust fumes?
EPA restrictions on the amount of NOx in the extream is why we have them. It works by reducing the combustion chamber temperature. Since NOx is formed only at high combustion temp. Which is why Biodiesel typically increases the NOx emmsions. Biodiesel burns hotter.
Great, it's an emmision control device. Now if it malfunctions it will remain closed by the spring pressure and your car will run fine or even better. But if carbon deposits hold the valve open you can even have a NO START, rough idle, wandering engine RPM, missfires, loss of power, smoke and check engine lights. I can even see this causing overheating since the O2 sensor will get incorrect readings and the fuel injection will attempt to compensate thus overloading your engine with fuel.
I used to be an expert ASE master tech. I'm a little behind the time on new tech. But an EGR is still the same.
You can clean them by removing it.
On these jeeps, it's under warranty so why bother.
I am inclined to agree with a poster in another forum with the opinion that a faulty fan clutch shouldn't make an impact on radiator heat when driving at interstate speeds. Probably the impact will be noticeable in city driving, I suspect.
The solution to the overheating issue is not with fan clutch replacement, but I don't know what the solution is.
themy (your) overheating issue is not with fan clutch replacement, but I don't know what the solution is." My overheating problem occurs with a tail wind while climbing hills, exclusively. Fan clutch is certainly indicated.P5031 shows up on code lists for other DC vehicles as an air conditioning fault code (air works fine). However, this is NOT a Liberty CRD code according to DC. We went for a short test drive and it drove okay. Strangely, the transmission seems to work perfect now. Shifts are quick and firm without being harsh during in-town driving (did not go on highway).
We have lost all confidence in this vehicle. Another 10 days in the shop and we qualify for the “lemon law” on our state. After reading all the posts on this site, I’d bet real money that our CRD will not make it a year without something else serious cropping up. In my opinion the lemon days are still counting while the fault code persists.
Just a thought.
from the TSB:
"SYMPTOM/CONDITION:
The customer may notice that the engine temperature gauge may indicate that the engine temperature is high. In hot ambient temperatures, and under certain driving conditions of extended uphill driving while towing a trailer, the engine temperature indicator may indicate slightly above the 3/4 normal operating termperature mark on the temperature gauge (but below the engine hot temperature markings). This condition may be caused by an incorrect calibration of the engine temperature gauge."
The TSB goes on to say that the fix will be included on the September 2005 DVD release of their DBRIII software (version level 62.2.) Is supposed to be available on their CINONConnect and TechCONNECT for download by August 26, 2005. Involves a reprogram of the Instrument Cluster and relates ONLY to 2.8L diesel Liberty.
Allows for only 2/10 hour - so must be relatively painless.
PS - It is certainly possible that some of the overheating issues with the CRD are indeed real. However, this TSB certainly suggests that the problem for many owners is simply related to the gauge reading higher (under some rather curious and specific circumstances) than it should be.
At least they have addressed it. Time will tell if that is the solution we've needed all along...
Hawk
I am not trying to defend DC by any means, but this is the reality of how these companies work. They are big bureracracies with many layers, like the U.S. government. It takes time for them to respond too.
As for the dealers, there a bunch of bad apples in the DC barrel as there are with the other manufacturers. The bad dealers tarnish the reputation of the company they represent.
I grant you it is frustrating for those of you with recurrent issues. I am sure I would be unhappy if I were in the same boat.
Remember, there are only 5000 - 6000 CRD's here in the States. The computer programming is different here from what they have in Europe because emissions rules are different here. Plus, I do programming and if you mess with one module, you may be unintentionally impacting on another or a few others causing them to act strangely. Diesel cars are a fairly rare commodity in this country, so there will be teething pains not only with DC but with the mechanics at the dealers. If diesels become more common, and I hope they do, you will see fewer issues and the mechanics who will have greater exposure to diesels will be able to offer better service.
My CRD was built on May 2nd and I have had to have it back at the dealer once for software crash at 586 miles. I am now at 2450 miles and it runs like a dream.
Since diesel Liberties were in use for a while in Europe, I thought that the bugs would be worked out before US production. Didn’t they test them? I get the impression the design team got thirsty on a Friday night and said, “Oh, heck, close enough. Let’s go get a beer!” And, they didn’t come back.
I sympathize a little with the dealerships. They didn’t manufacture the crappy parts or write the faulty programs, yet they are expected to step up and take care of the problems. What we need is to pry those DC engineers out of the pub and get them back on the problems. It also might be a good idea to stop outsourcing critical parts to the lowest bidders. I would have happily paid more for this vehicle to not have any problems
That being said, dealerships should not be giving idiotic responses to owners that borders on dementia. I’m having trouble finding any evidence of either Evolution or “Intelligent Design” in any of this.
I do agree with you, winter2, that other manufacturers have problems too.
Please! We do not want to open that can of worms here!
tidester, host
As to testing, you also being a programmer, must realize that you cannot think of everything that could cause a program to crash. Even when run past several engineers, they will miss something or some event that no one even thought of will blow the whole thing to bits.
DC only brought over about 5000 - 6000 of these guys as a test. I think most people are generally satisfied in spite of the issues.
We would all like an instant and permanent resolution to the problems we are having but it just does not happen that way in some cases.
As to getting parts from the cheapest supplier, DC is just as guilty as Toyota, Nissan, Kia, GM, Ford, and the rest of them. It is all bottom line.
This paragraph made a few wheels spin in my head. If this is a software problem that hasn't been fixed, why hasn't it been fixed?
Who did the initial programming? Was it by direct employed DC personnel or do they contract it out?
I can very easily visualize the MBAs that run these companies patting themselves on the back and telling each other how smart they are as they lay off their directly employed programmers. They've found what appears to be a better deal at Joe's Software and Hot Dog stand. The software is written by Joe and his really smart nephew. The chips are burned into the CRDs. The Jeeps are overheating as described by the entries we've all read.
Now the MBAs figure, they can go back and hire Joe and the really smart nephew to fix this problem. They can't. They are MBAs and other "professional managers." They can't be expected to soil their hands with such things as computer codes. They find that Joe is up to his eyeballs with another contract with their competitors.
They hire another programmer. He asks to see the documentation. The MBAs show him every receipt for every billing that Joe has given them. They laugh and give him an odd look when he asks how Joe documented his code. So the other programmer starts from scratch and in the interim the Jeeps continue to overheat.
Not to worry, the MBAs are once again patting each other on the back because they got a good contract with Joe's successor programmer. This guy is in India and does happen to be as smart as Joe's nephew.
It may sound cynical, but I've seen big business run in this manner.
Friday January 21 at 7AM
Thank You
Second my liberty repeatedly when towing looks as if it will overheat but I never get the chime or the reduction in power (that the manual indicates will happen with true over heating).
I would not trade my liberty for any other vehicle currently produced in the U.S. (a toureg tdi for free maybe). When the rest of the auto industry comes around and creates a SUV that has a diesel motor I will consider them.
I love towing with my liberty it kicks butt. I average 22mpg dragging a 2700lb trailer at 75mph. I have 2002 grand Cherokee that averages an amazing 11mpg while towing the same trailer.
I just completed a trip from PA to Atlanta and back in 3 days 1800miles.
I averaged 26mpg at 80 mph with 4 adults in the vehicle. The trip down rt 81 and back the vehicle never down shifted once (other than the truck stops).
My number one complaint.... wait for it.... I want a bigger fill port. I hate hunting the small nozzle at the truck stops.
Thanks
CRDeviant
Again, for whom the bell tolls.
Please, at least keep reading the posts, keep countdown 10 days and counting.
Jeep/DC please step up to the plate? another dealer? a good mechanic?
As the poster just reported and I have stated before there is nothing like the CRD.
Mine came back yesterday with 4WD. I never had a good linkage-destroyed on the showroom floor or bad parts again like a LOST member earlier this year.
Meador's experienced heavy line mechanic replaced my broken linkage, we never had 4wd lo and engaging 4wd was a pain when it did engage 3 times. Now it is as easy to do any transfer changes just like the transmission - smoooth.
And diesel here near dfw airport is 2.49 gal and regular is 2.61 (shell).
Kawi did it on the zx900 1984 and the GPZ 750 turbos. Honda did it on the 99 vfr's.
You have great recall I was not going to talk about that. However my zx900 1984 ran to 40K miles before a rebulid and overbore to 998cc's then it really ran hot.
CRDeviant
Dave, enjoy the "cheap" fuel. In Chicago it is as high 2.79 and in western SD it is 2.69 .
I think you took my comment a little too seriously! I saw the humor in your post and attempted to add to it! Surely a little forum "offroading" won't deter a Liberty owner from participating!
tidester, host
I have a station that I used B2 and my mileage would drop 4 mpg. The first time I thought it was a fluke,only 350 mi, but at 14000 miles it did the same thing again.
The other stations don't have B fuel so I am not sure what the issue is.
The regional DC representative came out to see me Friday 8/19. We discussed the problem and he conceded that there "IS" a problem and DC is well aware of it. This is the first time anyone from DC (or the dealership) has admitted that there is a problem. Without giving me anything in writing, he indicated that the problem is "believed to be" with the software for the instrument cluster. The temperature gauge is not indicating an accurate reading (it is showing an exponential amount after 210F), but the sending probe IS sending accurate data. DC has a new software patch they are certifying for the CRD to correct this. He said it should have been released two weeks ago, but it wasn't (didn't explain why). He is hoping it will be released before the end of the month. He tried to get a TEST load of the software to install on my CRD, but was unsuccessful in having it released.
We discussed ways of immediately identifying this. He has a portable OBD type computer that will show the dynamic temperature. However there was no time to load the trailer up and go for a ride that day - this would clearly have indicated the true temperature. I asked him what the "OVERHEATING" max temperature was (basically what triggers the chime and throws a code) and he said "259 F" (seems a little high to me?). The normal operating temperature is 173.5 F. In fact he drove the divisions test CRD when he came to meet me, and we were able to compare normal operating temperatures of both at idle and warmed up (using the OBD device), and they were identical.
Based on this, I am going to install a digital coolant temperature gauge on my CRD. I have one from I obtained from Summit Racing, with a probe. I'm going to tie the probe into the heater hose as that is the easiest way to do it. I questioned the rep if this was reasonable and he said yes, it would be very close to the true temperature (the heater flow he explained is always FLOWING, even when the heater is not turned on). I plan to do this next week as I have a camping trip planned soon.
If this digital gauge indicates a reading different then the cluster gauge (in the lower temp range) then I would agree with DC. There really isn't an overheating problem but rather a gauge error (which they are planning to correct).
Overall the rep was very decent. In fact, he even personally fixed another nagging problem I was having with an exhaust leak, that two dealerships said didn't exist and "wasn't a problem". Yet he spent the time identifying it, recognizing it and then getting his hands dirty in fixing it. It turned out to be a leak where two pipes joined and an asbestos type wrap was not fitted right - just after the turbo.
I will update this post when I have more information.
Thanks.