It seems like the value-minded performance entry level lux sedan people eventually narrow it down to the G35 or TL (the non-value minded pay the BMW premium and go for the 3 or 5 series).
I've read on multiple boards that the G35 is going to come out with a completely redone interior. I think that's great since it's the weak point of the vehicle and I'd bet that the competition caused by the new TL is responsible.
Hopefully, now that Infiniti has upped the ante, Acura will respond in kind and put some nice improvements in the 2005 TL.
This kind of competition can only benefit the consumer.
I do believe that most people have brand minded more than value minded in some stages of their life. Especially when you are young. Good brand represent good quality, reliability and better car.
Just like the G35,BMW 3s and TL. Those cars are better in quality, reliability and very impressive.
Will you buy a car more expensive and do nothing except for a brand, you might as well buy a used car like 1991 BENZ 200E or BMW 318
People who choose these cars(G35, BMW330i, TL) will not go for hyundai/kia eventhou oneday they might be more equipped. People might be worried if those cars would have bad resale value, bad MPG, malfunction, pricey repairs, limited service station, bad aftersales service etc.
I think saugatak is right, since TL'04 came into the market, the market moves so does people's opinions. You can look at those posting from Bimmer's owner more aggresively lurking into other cars. AND ITS ALL GOOD FOR CONSUMERS
"You can look at those posting from Bimmer's owner more aggresively lurking into other cars. AND ITS ALL GOOD FOR CONSUMERS"
I love reading these posts. On one hand, there is a huge sentiment these boards at best represent the height of anecdotal evidence. On the other hand, they are used to predict and quote trends.
As many people that are on this board, it represents a tiny fraction of the car buying public. I like Edmunds, I am the only one out of over a couple hundred people that I know who frequents the board. People who buy everthing from Rolls to Hyundais, people who restore old cars, people who buy extremely expensive applicance cars, people who buy less expensive cars and treat them as gold, people who look at "value first", people who look at value "second". People who always bought vehicles from Japanese manufacturers finally gotten their first German car and are smitten. There is no one typical car buyer.
Toyota is now the number two car company in the world. As you guys are posting how Bimmer owners are lurking on Acura boards, I'm sitting here wondering how many Acura owners are moving over to Toyota/Lexus.
Know what the most effective form of getting a person into a showroom is 1. a recommendation 2. a TV ad.
Talked to a Dings Plus (paintless dent removal) guy in Bay Area and he said Nissan uses regular material while Infiniti uses European standard (higher quality); Toyota regular and Lexus higher same as Infiniti. But Acura and Honda use the same regular materials (cheap)...
I don't know true or not about the above. However there are things typical buyers don't know and can't compare, and probably don't care.
The 04 TL apparently uses a thicker stronger sheet metal that is supposed to withstand dings better. Apparently this is an upgrade from other Acuras or Hondas.
I read some articles about DOHC. It was developed for high rev (less moving parts?) therefore for more sporty cars. I see TL has higher HP but lower torque, compared to G35. Does this diff come from nature of the engine configuration? Or from somewhere outside engine?
This fact is (quoted from an article): 1. ACURA TL'04 uses High-tensile steel, which is far more stronger than previous acura.
2.Substantial improvements in noise, vibration and harshness were made over the previous TL. Measures include advanced aerodynamic design, acoustic glass with shade band, insulating panels under the hood and inside the trunk and the fenders.
Internal testing shows that the 2004 TL has less higher-frequency wind noise at the driver passenger "ear point" than the BMW 530i, Infiniti G35 and Lexus ES 300. It is also measurably improved over the previous TL. (end quote)
ACURA Integra GSR uses DOHC configuration but it only has 170hp. Does it make a sport car?
Quote "remember Roger Penske's car won the Indy 500 a few years ago with a pushrod engine, everybody else had DOHC."
So DOHC or SOHC does not matter as long as it outrun other then its fine.
I personally love to see fewer TL in the street otherwise it would be an average evryday-to-see car like BMW3s. Although it has a record sales diff by 1800+. May be more in January. we'll see.
I strongly suggest that you have to look at toyota cars as the second largest car industry in the world. It is a great car. (deep)
If it outpace others that doesnt mean TL is a sport car, it goes the same with other amenities/features that are sport's car like.
Besides Acura/honda engine last longer than any of its competitor.
TL'04 are not for racing in tracks nor is a "sport car" although it run faster than other. Race car dont need DVD-A, need more than 270hp, no heated rear seats, no power glass sunroof etc and the most important thing you dont see it a lot in the street or never.
"I personally love to see fewer TL in the street otherwise it would be an average evryday-to-see car."
In that price range, that is exactly what it is.
"So DOHC or SOHC does not matter as long as it outrun other then its fine."
On the racetrack where emissions and gas mileage dont' matter and motors have to last for not more than than one winning race. But in the world of street driving there are definite reasons why DOHC is preferred.
"I personally love to see fewer TL in the street otherwise it would be an average evryday-to-see car."
"In that price range, that is exactly what it is."
Btw I see few G35 on the street and a lot others. Price matter? Like I said its all good for consumer. So competitor car like 3..i need an upgrade.
"On the racetrack where emissions and gas mileage dont' matter and motors have to last for not more than than one winning race. But in the world of street driving there are definite reasons why DOHC is preferred"
Reasons : lower Hp? less speed? or just like saying "My 1990 Honda civic has 1.4 l engine, 16 valve and The important thing is DOHC" Sephia (korean brand) is also DOHC
Another point taken is THE car engine last longer.
I never cease to be amazed by the fervor of the BMW owners. I have a secret suspicion that their audio systems are encoded with subliminal messages convincing them that they have purchased the only cars worth owning. The subliminal messaging must have been defective in the BMW's of those speaking heresy by saying nice things about the TL over on the TL versus BMW board. The TL will never be an average car. It will always be in the price range above the average car because that is what Honda had in mind when they decided what market niche they wanted into with the TL. They decided to benchmark BMW. The Japanese auto makers are very good at bench marking. They find ways to attack the competition. They offer more for less. They always improve. Sometimes the benchmark is so busy feeling comfortable they don't bother to make many changes but are complacent because they have had many years of successes. BMW makes very fine cars. You have to admit in the last couple of years however Acura, Infiniti, and Nissan have all upped the anti against BMW with the Z car, TL and G35. The Japanese are very long range thinkers and planners. They are patient. They have their prey in sight and eventually...
I'm as interested as you to find out how people perceive these very different vehicles.
I don't believe I've seen your opinion on this board. What is your opinion on the driving characteristics of these cars, their values relative to the market, and what consistutes a sports sedan vs a sporty sedan vis-a-vis these vehicles? Which one would you buy and why? Does the FWD vs the AWD/RWD aspect of these vehicles enter into your thinking?
I didnt even consider about buying a TL until this new model came to the market. It makes sense that people kinda surprised of the unexpected TL cuz suddenly TL took the lead. People sometimes can be in a denial stage. Thats pretty normal.
Brand name (Bin laden) can make people blind about performance/ features (truth/honesty) but when you finally see it, its like seeing the light and usually its too late.
That is why people need to do some research on their own, otherwise believe the hype and you will feel the emptiness. And you will start lurking. no offense but that's the truth.
There is nothing absolute in this world, so does TL'04. Now maybe is THE time but maybe not in the future.
I cant wait to see the new G35. Anybody know what new improvement that they made? I know this will be interesting.
Gosh Mr. Shapiro, it sounds as though you feel you have the right to challenge someone else's right to post here. It was so nice of you to tell the person who asked why you are here what they should be responding to. Trouble is most of your responses have nothing to do with TL's or G35's other than to tell owners of those cars that they bought the wrong car because they didn't buy what you bought. As I said before, BMW makes a great car. The "why are you here" question seemed valid because all I have ever seen you do on any of the Acura boards regardless of the topic is extol the virtues of BMW and make derogatory comments about Acura and most other cars in any of the comparisons. Very seldom have I seen you respond to a question. Your answer is generally another statement of "the world according to kdshapiro and BMW rather than a response to the post. I actually haven't seen anyone else be as one sided as you appear to be in all of the Acura boards. Since this board is G35 and Acura TL and I don't believe you own either car...why are you here ?
I believe our friend represents the typical BMW (or is it Bimmer?) owner. He has just enough money to lease her first 325 with automatic (or is it steptronic?) and then becomes the authority on sport sedans and driving. His mission now is to preach the RWD gospel and put down those Honda products he’s probably driven his whole life. Clearly, his 325 doesn’t meet his needs with its lack of passenger room and all-season performance and might be served by actually driving the TL/G35X. Instead he is looking at the X3-cape so he can be the first on his block to own one. It’s all about image, not performance - please take his comments and condescending attitude for what they're worth.
These questions should be what every buyer who looks at these two vehicles wants to ask. Presumeably, a potential buyer of a G35 has some knowledge of RWD characteristics and has looked at other manufacturers (CTS,3 series,IS) as well. One just doesn't jump into RWD as there are some weather related ramifactions (ie snow tires) depending on your part of the country.
Danny's list from above was a nice attempt to capture the value of the TL, but if these vehicles were on my short list I would be asking some questions and not make it a value call for the TL. On the other hand I wouldn't make it a RWD call for the G35 automatically.
If I had to choose between these two vehicles, it would be, sit down Bob, raher, the Acura. I'm not a fan of the G35 exterior styling and the G35 is an ergonomic mess inside, IMO. The 2004 TL does better in that regard. Although the G35 would has better handling, the Acura would be nicer to sit in.
BTW Bob thanks for your concise analysis of my situation.
I only hear this from people who dont own one. Perhaps the inferiority complex many BMW owners have also involves lack of perceptory skills or basic intuition. IF you can complete a game of candyland then you can learn the G interior well in 45 minutes. The essential lux goodies plus many more are there as well.
KD you effectively represent the very reason many wont buy a BMW. And if you didn't notice, the interior of the G is trying to be very VERY different than the ubiqutious 3 and it's very blase' interior. If I wanted to drive an interior that was simple and near perfect I would have driven an Audi home...but I didn't want any more german reliablity issues that pervade in 70% of everyone one I know's german car despite the badge.
If you ever get over the fact that 1 - now 2 cars are whipping up on BMW sales and beat the 3 in performance (on is even FWD) Hands Down, then you too can trade up to one of the best and enjoy what you seem to be desparately trying to make up for. How long on that lease until the end KDS? another year or 2 and you can enter the best car in class once again and don't worry if you feel you need to tell your friends you spent 40k the G coupe is around 38 loaded...
"KD you effectively represent the very reason many wont buy a BMW"
Hey chris - seems a little personal because I don't like the interior of the G35, which is highly subjective opinion anyway. Notice I never said anything about the handling. Why one would choose one over the other involves a lot basic differences in the philosphies of these two cars.
It's not as cut and dry as thinking one has a nicer interior and one has RWD. They both are targeting some type of benchmark in their pursuit of automotive excellence and there are compromises to me made for both against the benchmark.
Yet on there own each has a distinct flavor that makes makes this an interesting comparo. The stripper G at $26K is undoubtly the value leader for the class vs the baseline line TL at ~$33K.
But chris, instead of your diatribe....what's your opinion, which car would you choose and why? What's more important to you given these two vehicles represent the opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of handling and amenities? BTW - chris Feb 2004 Automobile mag came out with its' list of awardees. Might want to check it out.
We are not comparing either of these vehicles to a BMW nor are we here to talk about each other.
Everyone is welcome to participate in this conversation as long as the messages are polite and ON TOPIC, and about the CARS as opposed to the people who are posting about them. There is no requirement that one own a certain vehicle to post about it, of course.
This is fair warning ... future messages comparing these vehicles to an off-topic car and/or criticizing other members will be removed.
We have a discussion comparing the TL to a 3-Series and there is no reason why any other comparos that interest any of you should not be created. Just go to the "Comparisons - Sedans vs. Sedans" link at the top of the page. If what you want to talk about doesn't exist, feel free to make a new one.
Is this a G35 Sedan board ? I haven't seen a post on the G35 coupe here and am wondering how people like the coupe. I probably would have bought the G35 coupe but my wife couldn't live with 2 doors.
I'm not a big car freak, but a buddy of mine told me something about the whole horsepower and torque thing. he said that the force you feel when you puntch it off the line is that of the torque and not the HP, how my question is, if the force that pushes you back in your seat is the tourq, why do they make such a big deal over HP... ie TL 270 HP but only 239 lb of torq while the G is 260 and 260 or 280 and I think like 278 can anyone clarify this. I'v driven both cars and the G seems to take off from the line a hell of alot faster than the TL (well not a hell of a lot, just feels more forceful) thanks
G35 is a 3.5 L engine and TL is a 3.2 L engine. You can achieve HP by making the engine bigger (Infiniti's solution) or making a small engine crank faster (Acura solution). The bigger engine is going to have more usable HP off the line b/c it takes time for the smaller, faster engine to crank it.
Also, Acura just makes smoother, more refined engines than Infiniti (one of the major reasons why I like Honda and BMW is I love their engines) so it may feel like you are going slow b/c the engine doesn't seem to be working, but when you look at the speedometer you'll see that you're flying.
Torque is a measure of force. In general engines with large displacements generate more torque. Horsepower is derived from torque from a simple algebraic equation, which is based on rpm. Manufacturers add more horsepower by increasing the red-line.
Obviously acceleration is a complicated issue, which relates to engine characteristics, drive-train and gearing. But if one looks at the torque curve an engine that develops 250 lbs/torque at 4K rpm will not have as much punch as an engine that develops 250 lbs/torque at 2K rpm.
An engine that redlines at 8K generally has more flexibility than an engine that redlines at 6K, and probably has more HP as well. A larger engine with more torque and a lower redline is a trade off against a smaller engine with less torque and a higher redline.
Just had an '04 TL demo (auto, w/o nav) for the weekend and it seems to be much improved from my 2000 TL. Versus the G35 sedan I test drove a year ago, the TL interior seems nicer and more ergonomically pleasing, and the stereo is great. The G35 had better acceleration and seemed "lighter on its feet" when running it hard. Two problems I see with the Acura are 1)when I tilt the steering wheel where I like it, it completely covers the tach, the gas gauge, and the speedometer between 20 and 140 which is annoying and 2) the car is noisy inside when running the highway at 80mph. I can get past the highway noise by turning up the stereo, but I guess I'll be back to Infiniti for an extended test drive! Also, it seems that the Infiniti (RWD)is $2K more when equipped comparable to the base TL. Does anyone think the Infiniti will be worth $2K more on resale in 4 years? Any insight on noise inside the G35?
I wonder if your 80 mph noise isn't the below average oem tires. Was it wind noise or ??? The tires are very noisy and produce a hard ride. Many many posts on this subject. The reason I ask is I was out in my TL most of the weekend. I am batching it this weekend and decided to drive the TL all day and night. I drive 80 and faster a lot on the freeway and my TL is quiet. I replaced the tires at 400 miles and the difference is very noticeable both in ride comfort and noise. It's a shame Acura hooked up with Bridgestone on these particular tires as Bridgestone makes some excellent tires...just not the EL42's. I am assuming you drove an auto and not the manual.
Raher...... I did drive the auto with the basic oem tires so you're probably right as the road noise was not wind noise. If I go with the TL, I guess I'll need to consider the cost of new tires right out of the gate.
Negotiate the tire replacement up front. Surprisingly, most sales folks are doing this. Acura dealers use Tire Rack. Go to their site and check it out. Compare the price of the Bridgestone Potenza 030 and the Turanza's. Acura says it costs $200 to upgrade...
Current street prices are probably about the same (about $31,000 for each).
I've driven both, and the G35 is a bit noisier than the TL. There are rumors that the 2005 G35 with a completely revamped interior (which is the current car's biggest weakness) will be introduced at the New York Auto Show. Usually, Japanese cars get a facelift in the 4th model year (the G35 came out as a 2003 model), but who knows since so many people have complained about the interior of an otherwise great car. Infiniti actually tweaked the rear end a bit about half a year after the G35 came out, so it's possible.
"Also, Acura just makes smoother, more refined engines than Infiniti (one of the major reasons why I like Honda and BMW is I love their engines) so it may feel like you are going slow b/c the engine doesn't seem to be working, but when you look at the speedometer you'll see that you're flying. "
The only motor in wards top ten for 9 or 10 straight years is the VQ. There is much more of a difference between the BMW and the Acura than the acura and the infiniti as the BMW is the straight six which is supposed to be inherintly smoother. The VQ however is built to be one of the smoothest V's out there and is often cited as the most rigid 6 cylinder out there.
An engine that has less tourque will be winding harder and working longer to make the same perfmance - it depends what you want. I want power at the push of the pedal and the G delivers in spades.
Not true, the I6 has also been in there since the lists inception in one form or another. Just like the VQ had a number of displacements, the I6 did as well. 2.5, 3 and 3.2. The 3.2L is still on the list.
Quote directly from Wards Auto World.
"In some form or another, a BMW straight-6 has been a 10 Best winner each year since the competition began in 1995."
3.2l M3, nissan 3.6l v6, accord 3.0 v6 are among the 10 best engines. but the dominant V-6 benchmark is nissan 3.5l v6. "No need to bring in a lot of different engines (for comparison), either. Power, torque, brake-specific fuel consumption, just about any attribute you're looking at, the Nissan's at the top of the list.”
Yes but your friends wont think you have the best perhaps unless the pukey blue propeller is on the hood. Perhaps the marketing and not the machine is what matters some owners.
If it's on the best list the naysayers will find a reason it's still not as good..fuggetabout em..it may be the best engine ever and many are probably bummed they thought they bought the best simply because they paid alot more than they had to. Want a trouble free car the VQ is one of the best ever. Want to spend alot of time and money on repairs and reliablity nightmares - any german 6 will do whether it made Wards or not.
I think that the class leader has been re-established for a year now or more and I see that the followers are now making compromises. Example: The 3 series has less power and slightly less traction than the G while the a-4 has FWD like the Acura. The caddy is also underpowered even in 3.6 form and the saab well, it has all that could be wrong in it.
The G is the leader hands down in value and performnace - I'm sure there will be many that are hanging on to the past so this should stoke up some good comments.
I have a friend who drove g35 with 6k miles on it and in summer 2003 he went speeding with a 330i, although G35 managed to outrun 330i but it kept tailing the G. He said if the road was long enough the G would surely leave it for miles. With 260hp vs 225hp I'm sure it would.
That was before I knew about torque. With 260 ft/lbs torque I think on street driving it is noticeably faster. Any experience with G35 and Acura TL-S? Just curious.
This is probably not relevant here, but I've noted several posts comparing these two excellent engines. Last october I test drove the G35 coupe and the Acura CL (outgoing) and TL (new version). Although the G35 coupe is hands down a gorgeous car, it's interior was less than stellar, the stereo was boomy, and most importantly, the engine felt rough compared to the CL/TL, especially at higher revs > 4-5K. The VQ doesn't make you feel like it wants to keep revving higher and becomes a bit rough, though it does pull strongly. The CL/TL winds like a turbine up to it's redline, and it mates well with the 6 sp manual. So for me, the engine, transmission and interior sold me on the Acura, although I wish it looked like the G. I really love driving the Acura, almost as much as the M5 I traded in for it-
I raced my friend, he has G35 coupe 6MT, and I have 2002 TLS AT. Well what can I say, G pools away on the firs gear, than stays on about the same distance in the second, in the third it is noticeably faster. By saying that G could not change lane in front of me 0-60, but after that .fuggetabout it. All cars drive different even though it is the same model, that's why most magazines have different results for the same vehicle. Being that G35, TL and 330 has about the same acceleration and handling, it can go ether way.
VQ has more low end torque, but you can feel it straining when you push the RPMs. TL's SOHC VTEC cranks a lot faster and smoother and it gets a lot better gas mileage.
If you want a jump off the line, by all means go with the G35, but as soon as the engine has to rev, the SOHC VTEC engine in the TL is superior IMO.
I still think the Acura engine is better than the G35 engine because the G35 has a 3.5L whereas the 3.2L TL engine gives comparable performance despite being smaller.
Yes, I know the G35 engine has extra HP that can be freed up, but that is also true of the TL engine.
Skylines (G's in Japan) are offered with 2.5, 3 & 3.5L VQ. Newest evo reports that 2.5 is good for 220 hp, 3 for 270 hp. I don't know accuracy, just reporting what I read.
Comments are clearly biased to Honda engine. In an automatic transmission, who revs an engine to the redline under normal condition? One is likely to be under 3000 rpm (95% of the time) driving in urban conditions. The VQ engine is one of the top 10 in this year's WARD results. The 3.5L produces 260 lb-ft of torque at 4000 rpm while the 3.2L produces 238 lb-ft at a still higher 5000 rpm (My 540i produces 324 lb-ft at 3600 rpm). Moreover, the G35 weighs in at 3369 lb while the TL is heavier at 3575 lb. The G35X is ~3680 lb. Higher hp = higher top end speed (irrelevant). On another point - the turning radius for TL is 39.7 ft vs G35 at 36.0 ft. These many ~10% differences do matter.
But the torque of G35 will certainly beat the TL in acceleration, agreed. I quote these because it's a fact which can be measured and not a subjective opinion.
1. There is no Honda 3.2L engine. 2. Acura TL --> 196 cu in, 3210cc While the Accord --> 183 cu in, 2997cc 3. Acura Cam shaft -> Variable timing SOHC while Accord V6 3.0L --> SOHC 4. Acura TL -->Sequential Port fuel injection while Accord 3.0L V6 -->Multi point fuel injection 5. TL compression --> 11.0:1 while Accord 3.0L V6 --> 10.0:1 6. Acura TL Bore x stroke 3.50 x 3.39 while Accord 3.0L V6 3.39 x 3.39
Honda accord coupe V6 is lighter (3294 lbs) than Acura TL but Accord V6 3.0L top speed is only 135mph
Weight does matter for speed but in this case not relevant cuz they are different engine. Horsepower is not top speed relevance but it is a determining factor
Honda Accord 3.0L engine and Toyota prius 1.5L engine are ALSO on the top 10 in this year's WARD 10 Best Engine.
I was being facetious in that Acura is a division of Honda as Infiniti is of Nissan, though I didn't refer to the 3.5L as a Nissan engine. Re top speed - literally no one takes a car to its top speed so hp discussion is really for marketing types - who drives at 6200 rpm? What counts in an urban setting in the real world is the typical rpm range and useable torque. TLs/G35s with manual transmissions can take advantage of the higher rpms but they probably a minority, likely less than 8%. Incidentally, the Nissan 3.5L max torque is at 4800 rpm and not the 4000 rpm mentioned in the earlier posting. Honda's 3.0L was on Ward's top 10 but that engine is not part of this TL/G35 discussion. All this focus on times to 60 mph is just so much marketing crap. Most pulications show the automatic G35s/TLs with 6.1 - 6.3s for the 0-60 mph sprint. Again, what does it mean. Who really cares? Spend more money and you'll likely get a car with "more performance". A "better" car does not mean a "better" person behind the wheel. It doesn't say anything about the competence of the driver. Gaining a 0.5 s advantage on specs doesn't necessarily reflect on one's driving skills. That's just for the testoterone laden "juvenile's" bragging rights. It's the automobile that faster (if that's important). Too many people equate a car's performance statistics as if that represented them as a person. Yikes!
Comments
I've read on multiple boards that the G35 is going to come out with a completely redone interior. I think that's great since it's the weak point of the vehicle and I'd bet that the competition caused by the new TL is responsible.
Hopefully, now that Infiniti has upped the ante, Acura will respond in kind and put some nice improvements in the 2005 TL.
This kind of competition can only benefit the consumer.
Just like the G35,BMW 3s and TL. Those cars are better in quality, reliability and very impressive.
Will you buy a car more expensive and do nothing except for a brand, you might as well buy a used car like 1991 BENZ 200E or BMW 318
People who choose these cars(G35, BMW330i, TL) will not go for hyundai/kia eventhou oneday they might be more equipped. People might be worried if those cars would have bad resale value, bad MPG, malfunction, pricey repairs, limited service station, bad aftersales service etc.
I think saugatak is right, since TL'04 came into the market, the market moves so does people's opinions. You can look at those posting from Bimmer's owner more aggresively lurking into other cars. AND ITS ALL GOOD FOR CONSUMERS
I love reading these posts. On one hand, there is a huge sentiment these boards at best represent the height of anecdotal evidence. On the other hand, they are used to predict and quote trends.
As many people that are on this board, it represents a tiny fraction of the car buying public. I like Edmunds, I am the only one out of over a couple hundred people that I know who frequents the board. People who buy everthing from Rolls to Hyundais, people who restore old cars, people who buy extremely expensive applicance cars, people who buy less expensive cars and treat them as gold, people who look at "value first", people who look at value "second". People who always bought vehicles from Japanese manufacturers finally gotten their first German car and are smitten. There is no one typical car buyer.
Toyota is now the number two car company in the world. As you guys are posting how Bimmer owners are lurking on Acura boards, I'm sitting here wondering how many Acura owners are moving over to Toyota/Lexus.
Know what the most effective form of getting a person into a showroom is 1. a recommendation 2. a TV ad.
I don't know true or not about the above. However there are things typical buyers don't know and can't compare, and probably don't care.
Thanks.
1. ACURA TL'04 uses High-tensile steel, which is far more stronger than previous acura.
2.Substantial improvements in noise, vibration and harshness were made over the previous TL. Measures include advanced aerodynamic design, acoustic glass with shade band, insulating panels under the hood and inside the trunk and the fenders.
Internal testing shows that the 2004 TL has less higher-frequency wind noise at the driver passenger "ear point" than the BMW 530i, Infiniti G35 and Lexus ES 300. It is also measurably improved over the previous TL. (end quote)
ACURA Integra GSR uses DOHC configuration but it only has 170hp. Does it make a sport car?
Quote "remember Roger Penske's car won the Indy 500 a few years ago with a pushrod engine, everybody else had DOHC."
So DOHC or SOHC does not matter as long as it outrun other then its fine.
I personally love to see fewer TL in the street otherwise it would be an average evryday-to-see car like BMW3s. Although it has a record sales diff by 1800+. May be more in January. we'll see.
I strongly suggest that you have to look at toyota cars as the second largest car industry in the world. It is a great car. (deep)
If it outpace others that doesnt mean TL is a sport car, it goes the same with other amenities/features that are sport's car like.
Besides Acura/honda engine last longer than any of its competitor.
TL'04 are not for racing in tracks nor is a "sport car" although it run faster than other. Race car dont need DVD-A, need more than 270hp, no heated rear seats, no power glass sunroof etc and the most important thing you dont see it a lot in the street or never.
In that price range, that is exactly what it is.
"So DOHC or SOHC does not matter as long as it outrun other then its fine."
On the racetrack where emissions and gas mileage dont' matter and motors have to last for not more than than one winning race. But in the world of street driving there are definite reasons why DOHC is preferred.
"In that price range, that is exactly what it is."
Btw I see few G35 on the street and a lot others. Price matter?
Like I said its all good for consumer. So competitor car like 3..i need an upgrade.
"On the racetrack where emissions and gas mileage dont' matter and motors have to last for not more than than one winning race. But in the world of street driving there are definite reasons why DOHC is preferred"
Reasons : lower Hp? less speed? or just like saying "My 1990 Honda civic has 1.4 l engine, 16 valve and The important thing is DOHC"
Sephia (korean brand) is also DOHC
Another point taken is THE car engine last longer.
The subliminal messaging must have been defective in the BMW's of those speaking heresy by saying nice things about the TL over on the TL versus BMW board.
The TL will never be an average car. It will always be in the price range above the average car because that is what Honda had in mind when they decided what market niche they wanted into with the TL. They decided to benchmark BMW. The Japanese auto makers are very good at bench marking. They find ways to attack the competition. They offer more for less. They always improve. Sometimes the benchmark is so busy feeling comfortable they don't bother to make many changes but are complacent because they have had many years of successes.
BMW makes very fine cars. You have to admit in the last couple of years however Acura, Infiniti, and Nissan have all upped the anti against BMW with the Z car, TL and G35.
The Japanese are very long range thinkers and planners. They are patient. They have their prey in sight and eventually...
Sort of like the fervor of Acura owners who are agasht the world doesn't see the value laden offerings from Acura and dares to buy any other car.
"They have their prey in sight and eventually... "
Great managers call that snooze you lose syndrome, sort of like the American car companies.
I don't believe I've seen your opinion on this board. What is your opinion on the driving characteristics of these cars, their values relative to the market, and what consistutes a sports sedan vs a sporty sedan vis-a-vis these vehicles? Which one would you buy and why? Does the FWD vs the AWD/RWD aspect of these vehicles enter into your thinking?
Brand name (Bin laden) can make people blind about performance/ features (truth/honesty) but when you finally see it, its like seeing the light and usually its too late.
That is why people need to do some research on their own, otherwise believe the hype and you will feel the emptiness. And you will start lurking. no offense but that's the truth.
There is nothing absolute in this world, so does TL'04. Now maybe is THE time but maybe not in the future.
I cant wait to see the new G35. Anybody know what new improvement that they made? I know this will be interesting.
I actually haven't seen anyone else be as one sided as you appear to be in all of the Acura boards.
Since this board is G35 and Acura TL and I don't believe you own either car...why are you here ?
Clearly, his 325 doesn’t meet his needs with its lack of passenger room and all-season performance and might be served by actually driving the TL/G35X. Instead he is looking at the X3-cape so he can be the first on his block to own one. It’s all about image, not performance - please take his comments and condescending attitude for what they're worth.
Danny's list from above was a nice attempt to capture the value of the TL, but if these vehicles were on my short list I would be asking some questions and not make it a value call for the TL. On the other hand I wouldn't make it a RWD call for the G35 automatically.
If I had to choose between these two vehicles, it would be, sit down Bob, raher, the Acura. I'm not a fan of the G35 exterior styling and the G35 is an ergonomic mess inside, IMO. The 2004 TL does better in that regard. Although the G35 would has better handling, the Acura would be nicer to sit in.
BTW Bob thanks for your concise analysis of my situation.
I only hear this from people who dont own one. Perhaps the inferiority complex many BMW owners have also involves lack of perceptory skills or basic intuition. IF you can complete a game of candyland then you can learn the G interior well in 45 minutes. The essential lux goodies plus many more are there as well.
KD you effectively represent the very reason many wont buy a BMW. And if you didn't notice, the interior of the G is trying to be very VERY different than the ubiqutious 3 and it's very blase' interior. If I wanted to drive an interior that was simple and near perfect I would have driven an Audi home...but I didn't want any more german reliablity issues that pervade in 70% of everyone one I know's german car despite the badge.
If you ever get over the fact that 1 - now 2 cars are whipping up on BMW sales and beat the 3 in performance (on is even FWD) Hands Down, then you too can trade up to one of the best and enjoy what you seem to be desparately trying to make up for. How long on that lease until the end KDS? another year or 2 and you can enter the best car in class once again and don't worry if you feel you need to tell your friends you spent 40k the G coupe is around 38 loaded...
Hey chris - seems a little personal because I don't like the interior of the G35, which is highly subjective opinion anyway. Notice I never said anything about the handling. Why one would choose one over the other involves a lot basic differences in the philosphies of these two cars.
It's not as cut and dry as thinking one has a nicer interior and one has RWD. They both are targeting some type of benchmark in their pursuit of automotive excellence and there are compromises to me made for both against the benchmark.
Yet on there own each has a distinct flavor that makes makes this an interesting comparo. The stripper G at $26K is undoubtly the value leader for the class vs the baseline line TL at ~$33K.
But chris, instead of your diatribe....what's your opinion, which car would you choose and why? What's more important to you given these two vehicles represent the opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of handling and amenities? BTW - chris Feb 2004 Automobile mag came out with its' list of awardees. Might want to check it out.
Everyone is welcome to participate in this conversation as long as the messages are polite and ON TOPIC, and about the CARS as opposed to the people who are posting about them. There is no requirement that one own a certain vehicle to post about it, of course.
This is fair warning ... future messages comparing these vehicles to an off-topic car and/or criticizing other members will be removed.
We have a discussion comparing the TL to a 3-Series and there is no reason why any other comparos that interest any of you should not be created. Just go to the "Comparisons - Sedans vs. Sedans" link at the top of the page. If what you want to talk about doesn't exist, feel free to make a new one.
Thanks for your understanding.
I probably would have bought the G35 coupe but my wife couldn't live with 2 doors.
Also, Acura just makes smoother, more refined engines than Infiniti (one of the major reasons why I like Honda and BMW is I love their engines) so it may feel like you are going slow b/c the engine doesn't seem to be working, but when you look at the speedometer you'll see that you're flying.
Obviously acceleration is a complicated issue, which relates to engine characteristics, drive-train and gearing. But if one looks at the torque curve an engine that develops 250 lbs/torque at 4K rpm will not have as much punch as an engine that develops 250 lbs/torque at 2K rpm.
An engine that redlines at 8K generally has more flexibility than an engine that redlines at 6K, and probably has more HP as well. A larger engine with more torque and a lower redline is a trade off against a smaller engine with less torque and a higher redline.
Versus the G35 sedan I test drove a year ago, the TL interior seems nicer and more ergonomically pleasing, and the stereo is great. The G35 had better acceleration and seemed "lighter on its feet" when running it hard. Two problems I see with the Acura are 1)when I tilt the steering wheel where I like it, it completely covers the tach, the gas gauge, and the speedometer between 20 and 140 which is annoying and 2) the car is noisy inside when running the highway at 80mph. I can get past the highway noise by turning up the stereo, but I guess I'll be back to Infiniti for an extended test drive!
Also, it seems that the Infiniti (RWD)is $2K more when equipped comparable to the base TL. Does anyone think the Infiniti will be worth $2K more on resale in 4 years? Any insight on noise inside the G35?
The reason I ask is I was out in my TL most of the weekend. I am batching it this weekend and decided to drive the TL all day and night. I drive 80 and faster a lot on the freeway and my TL is quiet.
I replaced the tires at 400 miles and the difference is very noticeable both in ride comfort and noise. It's a shame Acura hooked up with Bridgestone on these particular tires as Bridgestone makes some excellent tires...just not the EL42's. I am assuming you drove an auto and not the manual.
I did drive the auto with the basic oem tires so you're probably right as the road noise was not wind noise. If I go with the TL, I guess I'll need to consider the cost of new tires right out of the gate.
G35 Auto w/ Premium Package: MSRP $33,890
TL Auto: MSRP $33,195
Current street prices are probably about the same (about $31,000 for each).
I've driven both, and the G35 is a bit noisier than the TL. There are rumors that the 2005 G35 with a completely revamped interior (which is the current car's biggest weakness) will be introduced at the New York Auto Show. Usually, Japanese cars get a facelift in the 4th model year (the G35 came out as a 2003 model), but who knows since so many people have complained about the interior of an otherwise great car. Infiniti actually tweaked the rear end a bit about half a year after the G35 came out, so it's possible.
The only motor in wards top ten for 9 or 10 straight years is the VQ. There is much more of a difference between the BMW and the Acura than the acura and the infiniti as the BMW is the straight six which is supposed to be inherintly smoother. The VQ however is built to be one of the smoothest V's out there and is often cited as the most rigid 6 cylinder out there.
An engine that has less tourque will be winding harder and working longer to make the same perfmance - it depends what you want. I want power at the push of the pedal and the G delivers in spades.
Actually that is not true at all.
Quote directly from Wards Auto World.
"In some form or another, a BMW straight-6 has been a 10 Best winner each year since the competition began in 1995."
Still on the list in 2004.
"No need to bring in a lot of different engines (for comparison), either. Power, torque, brake-specific fuel consumption, just about any attribute you're looking at, the Nissan's at the top of the list.”
If it's on the best list the naysayers will find a reason it's still not as good..fuggetabout em..it may be the best engine ever and many are probably bummed they thought they bought the best simply because they paid alot more than they had to. Want a trouble free car the VQ is one of the best ever. Want to spend alot of time and money on repairs and reliablity nightmares - any german 6 will do whether it made Wards or not.
The G is the leader hands down in value and performnace - I'm sure there will be many that are hanging on to the past so this should stoke up some good comments.
That was before I knew about torque. With 260 ft/lbs torque I think on street driving it is noticeably faster.
Any experience with G35 and Acura TL-S? Just curious.
If you want a jump off the line, by all means go with the G35, but as soon as the engine has to rev, the SOHC VTEC engine in the TL is superior IMO.
I still think the Acura engine is better than the G35 engine because the G35 has a 3.5L whereas the 3.2L TL engine gives comparable performance despite being smaller.
Yes, I know the G35 engine has extra HP that can be freed up, but that is also true of the TL engine.
TL
0-60 5.7 secs
Top speed 152 mph
Fantasy car top speed 152 mph
G35 6 speed manual
0-60 5.9 secs
Top speed 146 mph
But the torque of G35 will certainly beat the TL in acceleration, agreed.
I quote these because it's a fact which can be measured and not a subjective opinion.
2. Acura TL --> 196 cu in, 3210cc While the Accord --> 183 cu in, 2997cc
3. Acura Cam shaft -> Variable timing SOHC while Accord V6 3.0L --> SOHC
4. Acura TL -->Sequential Port fuel injection while Accord 3.0L V6 -->Multi point fuel injection
5. TL compression --> 11.0:1 while Accord 3.0L V6 --> 10.0:1
6. Acura TL Bore x stroke 3.50 x 3.39 while Accord 3.0L V6 3.39 x 3.39
Honda accord coupe V6 is lighter (3294 lbs) than Acura TL but Accord V6 3.0L top speed is only 135mph
Weight does matter for speed but in this case not relevant cuz they are different engine. Horsepower is not top speed relevance but it is a determining factor
Honda Accord 3.0L engine and Toyota prius 1.5L engine are ALSO on the top 10 in this year's WARD 10 Best Engine.
All this focus on times to 60 mph is just so much marketing crap. Most pulications show the automatic G35s/TLs with 6.1 - 6.3s for the 0-60 mph sprint. Again, what does it mean. Who really cares? Spend more money and you'll likely get a car with "more performance". A "better" car does not mean a "better" person behind the wheel. It doesn't say anything about the competence of the driver. Gaining a 0.5 s advantage on specs doesn't necessarily reflect on one's driving skills. That's just for the testoterone laden "juvenile's" bragging rights. It's the automobile that faster (if that's important). Too many people equate a car's performance statistics as if that represented them as a person. Yikes!