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Hemi vs. Hybrid! Japan goes Tech, US goes ICE! Who's really winning??
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"Hybrid r&d expense adds very little to electric engine development."
Toyota Prius electric motor has a V-shape magnets to form optimal angle. Nissan super motor is a dual motor in one housing. It is perfect for AWD without the need of differential or two separate motors.
Most of HSD R&D can go into fuel cell vehicles. Just replace ICE and Planetary gear set with Fuel Cell stack and you get FCHV. Energy management in HSD and FCHV are functionally equal. Any developments in VSC or efficient algorithm in energy flow will benefit both HSD and FCHV.
Dennis
If you throw away your Prius battery after the life time of the car (100,000 miles), I'll take it because it'll still has 80% capacity left.
Dennis
That defeats the whole point of HSD. HSD achieves green without many compromises (except price for now).
Dennis
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/recycle/index.html
Dennis
The primary goal of VCM is to reduce pumping loss from engine throttling. Toyota uses Atkinson cycle to combat engine inefficiencies, including disabling all cylinders when unnecessary. It is a great solution when combined with an electric supercharger(hybrid).
Dennis
How many ICE only systems get more than 30 or 40 MPGs in stop an go traffic?
___10 – 15 years ago, there were scores of them. The Civic VX’s, CRX HF’s, Geo XFi’s To bad we did not continue on that path although they were 0-60 mph capable in the 12 - 15 second range which is ~ the same as an 04 Prius at ½ SOC or less On the highway, these ancient wonders destroyed everything in terms of mpg.
Badtoy:
Second, justification for the Prius is NOT just fuel economy, or Toyota would never have bothered to develop the technology -- it's California emissions
___That is a rather large justification as there are any number of std. ICE based PZEV capable automobiles you can buy today. This is just a $200 - $300 additional premium to pay for the additional HW, not $3,000 - $4,000.
Third, Californians have been waiting, and finally have hope for, an amendment to the rules regarding use of the car-pool lanes. There is presently a bill in the Cal State legislature which would allow hybrids into the lanes. This is a huge lifestyle improvement for thousands of Californians who have to contend with rush hour traffic. If it passes, I predict there will be a run on Priuses and every other available hybrid.
___This is really a sad state of affairs You have $10,000 PZEV based Focus’ that can be purchased by those with less financial wherewithal that are driving cleaner automobiles then all hybrids except for the 04 Prius. It is just as clean as the 04 Prius if that makes sense to you? The original intent of the HOV lanes in CA. was to reduce congestion and reduce pollution. Letting Hybrid’s take the lanes with those that are driving with 2 or more individuals irregardless of what they are driving in is a mistake given any number of PZEV’s are sitting in the regular lanes watching those that can afford a Prius drive on by. Consider the 01-03 Prius’, HCH’s, and Insight’s polluting an order of magnitude or more higher then those driving PZEV based Accord’s, Camry’s, and Focus’ when you make that consideration To summarize, Californian’s will not only lose the intent of the HOV lanes w/ lowered traffic congestion but they will be allowing higher polluting vehicles to scam the intent of a pollution reduction given the std. ICE based PZEV’s are not allowed in those same lanes without 2 or more occupants.
___Wimsey1:
But what lofty price tag on the Prius? The original WAS an expensive COMPACT. No question about that. The NEW Prius is competitvely priced as a MIDSIZE.
___Except that for a Prius to achieve the mid-size rating, it needs the hatchback. If you added a Hatchback to a Corolla, it would miss the Midsize category by ~ 1.5 cu. ft. If you made the 04 Prius a Sedan like the 01-03’s, it would also miss the Midsize category by ~ 2 cu. ft. The Camry’s rear passenger headroom is far and away higher then an 04 Prius and it feel larger side to side by a large margin to me.
___When you are speaking of price deltas, don’t forget what it costs to procure an 04 Prius at MSRP, MSRP +, MSRP + forced options, or MSRP + forced option packages. You won’t be paying these kinds of premiums on much else in the market by comparison and especially those that were compared in the review you are speaking of.
___Usbseawolf2000:
Most of HSD R&D can go into fuel cell vehicles. Just replace ICE and Planetary gear set with Fuel Cell stack and you get FCHV. Energy management in HSD and FCHV are functionally equal.
___I think you are missing the fact that a Fuel cell stack produces electricity, not mechanical energy directly. Replacing the ICE w/ a stack and throwing it into a Prius w/ HSD seems a bit whacky to me? Maybe use a Hybrid’s pack as an assist ala Honda’s IMA along with a smaller Fuel cell stack but not as an ICE replacement in an HSD equipped automobile.
4 Cylinder VCM would not be practical due to vibration and noise. Even Honda V6 VCM has to deal with vibration and noise when running on 3 cylinders. They record engine noise and make a canceling sound wave. I don't know what other desirable sounds it will cancel for the driver.
___Possibly true but those that have driven the VCM equipped 6 cylinder Accord mention not only a seamless transition but way over the top power on tap given the capability of that 240 HP engine mated with it’s whatever size IMA is undeniably powerful. The Prius on the other hand is already in the lowest percentile of performance w/ a full pack, let alone one at 75%, 50%, 25% or even less SOC.
The primary goal of VCM is to reduce pumping loss from engine throttling. Toyota uses Atkinson cycle to combat engine inefficiencies, including disabling all cylinders when unnecessary. It is a great solution when combined with an electric supercharger(hybrid).
___And with that, the 05 Accord Hybrid always has at least 240 HP on tap even w/ a fully discharged pack. The 04 Prius however is well a dog in comparison given the anemic atkinsonized 1.5 L motor they decided to use.
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___Maybe you don’t remember the fuel tank capacity of some GM P/U’s being understated by ~ 8%. GM was sued for that misstep. Do you think anything like that is occurring with the 04 Prius? Maybe they should remove it from the market because it cannot hold 11.9 gallons of fuel let alone a mere 10 gallons in many cases ;-) Hopefully they will have a fix for this in the not to distant future. Other PZEV’s are not having this problem so it appears to be something peculiar to the 04 Prius alone?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I also find it hilarious that US editors generally credit Honda with the first full production hybrid, when in fact it was Toyota. Honda slapped the Insight together to beat Toyota to the US market, but the Prius was on sale in Japan for three years previous to that.
Also, because of Japan's tax structure and stricter environmental standards, I doubt there are any significant problems with Prius' performance, or they would have had problems in the home market.
HSD can maintain battery State Of Charge(SOC) minimum level much better than Honda's mild hybrid IMA design. HSD can climb hill and charge battery at the same time. On the other hand, IMA requires you to hit the brake to charge the battery.
If 76HP Atkinson engine is anemic, how come Prius(2,890lbs) accelerate faster than Insight(1,900lbs) from 0-60 or 30-60 mph? HSD superiority will be obvious when there are larger hybrids to compare with. I can't wait for Accord hybrid vs. Camry hybrid.
Dennis
___As for pulling the Prius from the market, I was being facetious myself ;-) As for Japanese performance and environmental std.’s, the 04 Prius is not even a PZEV in Japan’s home market! An SULEV is a possibility but it is not a PZEV. On the performance side of the equation, they sold the original Prius with even less performance then the one they sold here. I don’t think performance matters to them as much as it does us for some reason? More congestion possibly?
___Usbseawolf2000, pull the PSD and ICE to make the FCHV? You seem to be missing the fact that a Fuel Cell is an electricity producer, not a mechanical energy producer. Once you are back to electricity, all you have are MG sets and the only thing a Hybrid’s pack can do is add assist to the Fuel Cell’s electricity already being produced. If the fuel cell can be sized properly, the pack and extra MG sets would be a total waste.
___As for the IMA in the HCH or Insight, you need to look up how it works. Not only is their charging without your foot on the brake, there is charging while climbing hills, coasting down hills, accelerating, and while cruising merrily along down the highway. You can even speed up charging simply by turning the headlights on.
___In regards to the 04 Prius’ anemic Atkinsonized ICE, the 5-speed Insight is anemic as hell as well and I know this to be a fact because I own one! The part you are missing is that once the pack’s are drained some given amount in any of the Hybrid’s, the performance of the entire system suffers a given amount. In the case of the Insight 5-speed without a completely drained pack, it can smoke the 01-03 Prius even if it had a full pack. It can smoke the 04 Prius w/ anywhere from ~ ½ to 0% SOC by a long shot as well. That does not make it a performance automobile by any stretch of ones imagination. The only reason that the 04 Prius can make it to 60 in 9.8 - 11.2 seconds is because the pack offers the extra amount of energy need to accomplish the task. Once the pack is drained even a small percentage, its performance begins to suffer until such time you are back to the 76 HP 1.5 L and when you rely on it alone, you may as well get out and run for all the faster that thing is ;-) Just kidding on the run part but anything that can do 0 - 60 in 14.8 seconds will outrun the 04 Prius in that condition. I cannot think of an automobile that is that slow to 60 mph off the top of my head other then the 01-03 Prius with a drained pack, can you?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-juice
It is slow, it doesn't corner well, stopping is up in the air (some reports show short distances and others long; not consistant), when I drove one it was noisey, especially with the ICE running. The sound insulation is pretty thin and its highway noise, stealth or not is pretty noisey about the equvialnt of other economy cars, certainly not at a luxury level.
What I have right now is very quiet, very good performance, very reliable, very smooth, much better stereo, more plush, much better handling, much better braking, better looks, leater, powers seats ,sunroof and yes truly automaitc headlights.
The EPA is 18/25 on a 2002 Lexus IS300 5-speed manual shift. However, I only get about 21 with a daily 25 mile commute ( 15 miles at 80-85mph,5 miles at 50-65 mph, and 5 miles stop/go/stop go.
So would the increased mileage be worht it ? Not from the Prius.
I think the upcoming Accord Hybrid is a better solution
Not to cross post, more information on the other many many Edmund Hybrid links, but demand for Prius might fall off very sharply in a couple of months.
FWIW, I never noticed noise levels in the new Prius to exceed those of other similarly priced Toyotas - Corolla, or my own Matrix at the time. And the gas engine is not noticeably noisier or coarser than either of those.
Some of what midnight says here
"What I have right now is very quiet, very good performance, very reliable, very smooth, much better stereo, more plush, much better handling, much better braking, better looks, leater, powers seats ,sunroof and yes truly automatic headlights."
could also be said in comparison with corolla/matrix, which has an available moonroof, more powerful stereos, and automatic headlights. But if you compare the base $20K Camry on many of these items, it would come out ahead. The Camry certainly has better sound suppression for the cabin, and a quieter engine than the Prius' ICE.
But the Prius is the smoothest around for its class, of that I am convinced. And stuff like the handling does not relate to "feel" IMO, but rather to performance.
If we accept that Prius is probably going to be Toyota's entry-level hybrid for a long time to come, I wonder how long they can hold the line on the $20K price tag. The thing is, with increasing competition from the Koreans and soon the Chinese, the price of true econobox compacts (ICEs) isn't likely to rise much for some time to come, either.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
___I don’t know if this matters to some or not but the 03/04 Corolla is relatively quiet on the road once the engine settles down into a steady cruise While it is accelerating however, it is a bit ungainly in the noise emission department just like the 04 Prius.
2004 Prius - Edmunds:
Db @ Idle: 53/lo
Db @ Full Throttle: 71
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 74
2001 Prius - Car & Driver:
Db @ Idle: 45
Db @ Full Throttle: 70
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 70
2003 Corolla LE - Car & Driver
Db @ Idle: 42
Db @ Full Throttle: 79
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 70
2002 Camry (SE w/ V6) - Car & Driver. I would think the 4 cylinder would have higher dB output but I couldn’t find dB output for the 02-04 Camry LE w/ the 4.
Db @ Idle: 37
Db @ Full Throttle: 70
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 67
2003 Honda Civic Hybrid Manual - Car & Driver
Db @ Idle: 36
Db @ Full Throttle: 74
Db @ 70 mph Cruise: 73
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
dB @ Idle, ICE off: 31 dBA
dB @ Idle, ICE on: 45 dBA
dB @ Full Throttle: 70 dBA
dB @ 70 mpg Cruise: 69 dBA
It seems the Prius is more like the V6 Camry in the full-throttle noise department, rather than the Corolla.
xcel "Is it time to buy a hybrid? Are they up to the chore?" Apr 12, 2004 11:31pm
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
djasonw "Is it time to buy a hybrid? Are they up to the chore?" Apr 13, 2004 6:44am
Later, American Honda mentioned the same.
No-one has anything new to say on the subject, I take it?
robertsmx: with the V-6, the hybrid Accord should be a real humdinger. I just wonder how good the fuel economy could possibly be using that engine.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
___I agree with the #xxx #xxx stuff as well.
___I believe I have posted this in the past but I cannot say much about the fuel economy other then Honda’s own press releases. There is going to be an online chat with the Honda Hybrid and/or advanced fuel engineering group(s) tomorrow at 01:30 PM PST in Honda’s own Owner-link site. I won’t be able to listen in as I won’t be around but I do have a few guys that are going to hopefully copy and past the entire event in another forum. If so, I will repost it back here And I have read of a guy that actually drove the Accord V6 Hybrid. He said the only way he could tell when the ICE swapped between 3 and 6 cylinders was a light on the dash telling him it did. With Civic type mileage (I hope it is Civic LX w/ a stick type mileage) and the smoothness described by the behind the wheel driver, I can bet it will be something special. I am still hoping for 0 - 60 in 7 or so seconds and Civic type city/hwy mileage Now if they don’t try and get $30K or more for it This automobile will be the turning point as to when Hybrid’s hit mainstream imho. Well that and maybe the RXh, Highlander, and Escape as well?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
If VCM weren’t refined enough, I doubt Honda would have used it in a luxury sedan offering. And it has been in the market for several months now.
Accord Hybrid will use the same engine. The VCM/V6 should by itself show reasonable mileage improvement on the highway. And as Varmint mentioned earlier, electric motor is really a nice add on when it comes to city driving (something that may or may not be reflected in EPA estimates, given the method of arriving at those numbers). It would be nice for the motor to have idle stop feature when I spend a few minutes at couple lights on my short commute to work. That would certainly help in the overall picture.
And of course, this powerful V6 may actually end up being a PZEV!
xcel: I figure the Accord hybrid will be at least $24K, and I am hoping, not much more.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Get in an Echo, though, then climb into the Prius. I'd argue the Prius is closer to your Lexus.
And to be honest the IS is not a good comparator, it's sporty and cramped while the Prius is efficient and airy.
-juice
___Well, the Ford Escape is a true reality 38 mpg in a brand new unbroken in one by drivers only known for their celebrity through and around Manhattan!
___You can read more about it here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4724092/
___SOB, that mileage and what the territory they drove through is within striking distance of an 04 Prius The big ticket is that it is also a PZEV. I mean even the Highlander Hybrid won’t be a PZEV!
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
___The only problem is that they are going to limit the Escape to just 30,000 vehicles As for its performance, it should be comparable to the V6 according to Ford’s Escape Hybrid web site? Meaaing depleted pack, depleted performance. I wonder how a 133 HP – 129 Ft.-Lb’s of torque engine will do hauling that > 3600 # (I am guessing at its weight?) vehicle around? It is going to use the 2.3 L from the PZEV Focus but it appears to have been Atkinsonized. Here is Ford’s own detail:
133 horsepower at 6000 rpm and 129 lbs-ft of torque at 4500 rpm. The preliminary horsepower rating climbs to approximately 155 hp when combined with the electric motors (based on Ford preliminary data).
___The problem as is the case with all Hybrid’s, can it make up its higher initial cost in fuel cost savings? It is supposed to cost another $2,000 - $4,000 over one of the Escapes? I hope that is the 4 cylinder version? It is a PZEV so that helps and receiving 38 mpg in the Manhattan traffic and 37 continuous hours on a single tank is pretty amazing. And it did it with celebrities, not experienced Hybrid drivers I don’t think I could have done that in my Insight but an 04 Prius driver might have been able too? 37 hours and 537 miles is a long way however This was done at the proper time so as to not to have to use heat or A/C more then likely and that PZEV could just sit at all those lights and in that traffic doing nothing but crawling on the pack for hours before the ICE started up to charge the pack again?
___Here is the Escape Hybrid SUV capability text at Ford’s Escape Hybrid site: http://www.fordvehicles.com/escapehybrid/capability/index.asp?bhc- p=1
___Rfruth, I have read the V6 in the HH will be SULEV but I don’t know much else about it. I am sure there is plenty of discussion about it in the Highlander and I thought I saw a HH forum as well?
___Good Luck
___Wayne R. Gerdes
I would hope that Ford did the same thing with the HVAC as Toyota did with the current Prius - engineer them so that the gas engine does not have to run at stoplights to keep the heat or A/C running.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And assume that USA gets Iraq back on its feet, disolve the current OPEC, and has some influence on reasonably priced oil.
If this happens, Guess what It will be the same effect after the gas lines and gas shortages of the 70's were over. Hybrids will wayne in popularity, especially the low performance ones.
====================================
I have been trying to think of a new moniker
PRIUS - Performance Really Is Un-Smart.
PRIUS - Pride Rises Inspite Un-prius Stupidity.
PRIUS - Pump Resource Invites User Savings.
Meanwhile, gas price at local stations is $1.90 today--and it's six weeks until Memorial Day.
Look at Honda/Acura - they post a sticker in the window of every car they sell that says 'ULEV' or 'SULEV' or whatever. Their own sticker, which is in addition to the mandatory one. At the Honda dealership, low emissions have always been a selling point.
Saw a Dodge truck with the huge 'HEMI' badge on it this morning - man are those ever huge rims on that thing!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
-juice
They could use a hit.
http://www.autoextremist.com/page5.shtml