The irony is that the Escape is already a hybrid! Fantasy Land is where the dinosaurs live that think that hybrid technology is not gaining ground. All the major manufacturers (GM, Toyota/Lexus, Honda, Ford, Daimler, Mazda ...) are moving in the right direction finally and within a decade it will not be uncommon to hear drivers moan "my last car only got 100 mpg". Kudos to all those who are working towards the solution!
My least favorite fantasy is that Saudi Arabia will implode next year, and the resultant oil shortages will make gas rationing politically acceptible, and I will have bought a brand new minivan.
Anyone remember standing in line for 2 hours for 8 gallons of gas? Where were you in '73, or '79?
The alternative to a hybrid is a 500 gal. gas tank next to my tool shed- $1,000 for the tank and $1,500 more for 6 months of gas. Plus instalation. I checked. :confuse:
If you're going to save the world, start small. If you can't do it all yourself, don't just quit.
Oil dependency is reduced one mile per gallon per person at a time.
" The alternative to a hybrid is a 500 gal. gas tank next to my tool shed- $1,000 for the tank and $1,500 more for 6 months of gas. Plus instalation. I checked."
I love the idea of hydrogen fuel cells, but no one has figured out what to do when it gets cold outside. I'd also like to see it suceed, but there are many technological barriers.
As I anxiously await the introduction of the new Lexus IS - a vehicle that will be offered in sedan, coupe (and used to be) wagon form, I had to wonder ....
I wonder if Toyota would ever consider such a thing for a Prius? A Prius wagon sounds like a good bet to me ...!
Heard the future hybrid Civic will be styled quite differently from a conventional civic. I think this will help Honda sales, especially if the hybrid Accord is distinctly redesigned to look different from other Accords.
I have been keeping up with the new 2006 Civic news, and so far I have read or heard nothing at all that indicates the HCH will be any different from the standard EX or LX.
They "are" supposedly going to have a hatchback coupe in the 2006 models, but nothing I have seen or read has said that the HCH and the other 4 dr models will be any different..... :confuse:
Below is an interesting article about hybrid technology. Lexus states that the RX400h is a parallel hybrid. The "Full Hybrid" section of this article better defines what the 400h delivers.
It is not what I think but what was announced by Honda. This was reported by last week's Thursday Globe and Mail and the Friday National Post Automotive sections .
I have searched the web and cannot locate any story that says the 2006 Civic Hybrid will be different than the other 2006 4-door Civics, other than one article which said there will be a couple of different colors offered, which is no change from past years.
That's a fascinating article. It calls the Lexus a Power Hybrid because it uses the same size gas engine as the regular Lexus and adds some power along with a little fuel economy. That's a pretty good description.
Honda is unlikely to have different body styles on the HCH and HAH for two reasons:
1. They have a somewhat distinct advantage by having hybrid models of mainstream vehicles - unlike the Prius which is "different" in it's styling (some people like it, some don't). Many people want a "normal" looking car with hybrid components.
2. Honda saves money across the line by not creating different body styles on the same name (rather different from the GM business model). So all Civics will share the same basic sheet metal, same for Accord. I don't think Honda is anticipating creating a completely separate line of hybrid cars, which would have different styling if they did go that direction.
Aren't they restyling the Civic for '06? If so, I would imagine that their hybrid version would share the same body style. I understand it is quite sleek.
So far, no *quality* spyshots have been available for the 4 door version. The Civic Si Coupe has been seen and reported widely (was at a few car shows) but so far, all we have seen is a rear view of a 4-dr sedan and a little slice of the passenger side from the rear. Nothing concrete. :mad:
Time will confirm that the HCH will be styled differently from the regaular Civic. How differently I dont know--but definitely there will be a marked difference from the way the current HCH resembles the current Civics.
I have read the official news myself and sooner or later(assuming you do follow the news) everyone else will find this out.
In a future date I will do a "I told you so post".
That's why I am waiting for you to point me to the story you saw. I searched the Globe and Mail Canada website and that other site you mentioned for stories last Friday June 17th which said anything about the HCH being styled differently, and I found nothing. :confuse:
Can you point me to a story? Google News cannot find one. Thanks.....
Dewey might be onto something here. From the story:
"The new hybrid model will have more significant differences in exterior and interior styling and options to distinguish it from the gasoline-only model, according to Mendel.
No manufacturer has been more aggressive in bringing hybrids to market than Toyota. So you can imagine my surprise when I read the results of an interview with the Japanese automaker's new chief of research and development. According to Kazuo Okamato, hybrid technology just doesn't make sense for American motorists. Actually make that dollars and cents. Okamato told the Financial Times that "when you just use the argument of fuel efficiency," the technology is "not justified." In other words, you can't save enough money on gas to pay off the higher price for a hybrid vehicle. That's not to say Okamato is writing off the technology. A hybrid's biggest appeal, he suggests, is to those who want to do their part to save the environment, something you can't always work into an economic equation. That's the sort of logic that has confounded many of Toyota's competitors, including General Motors. But the long waiting list for Toyota's hybrids suggests American buyers are clearly motivated by more than just economics.
I, and so many others have said this. I told you so.
That depends on your deal. A recent Canadian study shows that the Accord Hybrid costs LESS over a five year period than the competing Accord non-hybrid. See the details here:
Of course they don't make financial sense. If I wanted to buy a vehicle that was inexpensive and got decent gas mileage I would have bought a Hyundai which gives a great warranty. Instead, I bought a Prius which has proven very reliable. I bought the extended warranty and I am now consistently getting a little over 50MPG every day. I paid a little less than 26k for mine. A bargain if you ask me!! Ask that same question to someone who has sold their car after one year and got exactly what they paid for it. Amazing how jealous some people are of this technology!
My apologies for not being able to provide proof through a web link! In fact I am kind of frustrated myself that I can only find the info the old fashioned way( A newspaper made out of paper).
If I find further web proof, I will provide the link on this forum
It talks a little about the "differentiation" but it does not say that the body styles will be different. My guess is that it will be a little more than now (the HCH has a different front air scoop and different antenna and a hybrid badge) but nothing drastic.
They will certainly be nothing like the huge complete body difference like the Prius and all the other Toyota cars.
Once owned with a few thousand miles, the Prius makes believers out of everyone. Reasonably comfortable, great mileage, and decent performance, that's a nifty package for low $20's (actually mine was $20,465.00 plus TX). I now have 20K plus miles and have found little to fault in Toyota's 2nd Generation Hybrid. What I really enjoy most is the look on the faces of people at the gas stations when I fill-up for 13-14 bucks and leave while they're still guzzling gas into their tanks. I smile of course. Railroadjames(Prius is where its at)
500mpg with a hybrid plugin is bogus according to autoextremist! Is it really bogus?
If a city driver does not drive over 20miles a day (such a driver represents a large percentage of drivers) then the electrical motor will be the primary form of locomotion for hybrid plug ins. Gas engine usage would be minimal! So 500mpg is not bogus at all. Appears autoextremist's views are so extreme that they cant understand such a simple notion as a plug in hybrid!
I cant find one valid argument in autoextremist that refutes what Friedman wrote about GM/Toyota?
Are there any forum members here who can find any autoextremist statements that resemble reality? Please let me know?
I did not read the whole Friedman article so I am limited. I don't think that Toyota would stand a chance managing GM. They would have the UAW to deal with and they fear them moving into their factories so much they would not want to stir that pot. Toyota would be buried in litigation if they tried to run GM like they do their factories. They have never had major labor problems nor old factories to contend with. GM has legal obligations to the retirees and those that are in that plan. GM's best bet is to pull out of the USA and start over in other parts of the world. Buy out the pensions and cut their losses. They can still build their high profit PU trucks in Canada & Mexico. They can build hybrids in China and have Walmart sell them.
I guess that's why they call them extremists! When people think slanted, I tend to ignore it. I prefer the mainstream pubs/sites to get my information.
"Autoextremist" is not a journalist nor an expert auto reviewer. What he is is a pro domestic anti import car buff. His opinion cannot be accepted as facts it is just an opinion. These days anyone who can read and write and has access to a computer with internet access is considered a journalist. 500 mpg automobile probably won't be a reality anytime soon but 70-80 mpg is well within technological reach. Unfortunately, GM thinks the GMT -900 is the wave of the future :P
GM's healthcare/pension liabilities are mainly the result of past management mistakes. GM management coaxed unions since the 1960s with unaffordable benefits that will not have to be paid for decades in the future. Unfortunately the future is now and the bills they incurrred in the past are becoming due!
GM is not alone! Ford, VW and MB have unaffordable wages and benefit obligations relative to Toyota/Honda/Nissan! The superiority of the Japanese have more to do with its lack of obligations ( more money for R & D)
Having said that would Toyota want to inherit GM"s financial burdens? In the end these are the alternatives if GM defaults on its obligations:
1) The US taxpayer picks up the tab and pays GM retirees /workers their healthcare/pension benefits
2) GM retirees are left holding the bag without any penison/healthcare benefits that they rightfully earned.
3) Toyota negoitates an agreement with GM/US government/labor unions in assuming a portion of these obligations as a part of a acquistion agreement.
pardon my ignorance but why is 500mpg not probable for a plug in hybrid. Especially for someone who drives/works in the city and does not go beyond 20 miles a day. Is the technology not here today for someone to plug in a hybrid and use solely an electrical motor for 20 miles without gas?
"Autoextremist" is not a journalist nor an expert auto reviewer. What he is is a pro domestic anti import car buff.
Well, I'm certainly not going to try and convince you to follow the Autoextremist point of view, but the above statement is incorrect. Autoextremist is considered a "legitimate" journalistic site and they are invited to all the usual press deals. Additionally, the creator has decades of experience in the auto industry which makes him an "expert auto reviewer" in my book. More so than Friedman, that's for sure.
And as far as being "pro domestic anti import", you've obviously never read his numerous rants against GM. No, he's pretty even-handed as far as I can see, but I suppose if your opinions tend to be at the extremes, someone in the middle can seem to be way out of whack...
I guess you can compare them to Faux News. Fair and balanced. Their website sucks and their commentary is worse. Just because a journalist is invited to an event does not make them credible. I find the most balanced reviews right here on Edmunds. Anything new in the wonderful world of hybrids?
500 mpg should really be 500 mpgog (miles per gallon of gasoline). And there is no reason why an automobile can't get 500 mpgog. The EV-1 got an infinite number of mpgogs...
What bothers me about these sort of claims is not that they are technically impossible, but rather that they assume the existance of things that don't yet exist. We don't have 4 gallons of alcohol to add for every gallon of gasoline. We don't have the electrical genereration capacity to make hydrogen for the ill-named hydrogen economy. We don't even have an electrical distribution system that would permit everyone to have a plug-in hybrid so that they could recharge their vehicle overnight.
When petroleum finally does run its course, we will have some real problems. We need well thought ideas, not extremist ones.
I am no automotive engineer either but isn't the point of a hybrid is so you don't have to recharge your battery using an outlet. Remember, there is no free lunch. Electricity is also a form of energy that is often derived from oil. If you are re charging your battery overnight in the garage, you are burning electricity. I think and I might very well be wrong; the reason Toyota and Honda does not offer "Plug-In-Hybrid" is because of the added cost and complexity it would add to an already complex power train.
as they say in ECO101 there is no such thing as a free lunch.
The question is not free electricity. The point is plug in hybrids will use a source of energy that is cheaper than petroleum. It will make us less oil dependent to a volatile part of the world. New electricity can be generated by new nuclear plants which may be more economical than other energy alternatives.
The point about hybrids is about saving fuel and low emissions. And plug ins wii enhance both fuel efficiency and low emissions.
The hottest marketing concept for cars today is fuel efficiency! I know that there are many who will love a plug in hybrid and wont mind the hassles of plugging it in a wall during the night. In fact I dont even consider it a hassle at all. My wife's 83 Mercedes 300d has to be plugged in daily during cold winter nights---this fact has not burdened us at all!
I think the biggest limiting factor is the cost of batteries on plugin hybrids. Electricity is far less expensive than energy derived from gasoline. Very little of our electricity is generated by oil. We still use about 50% coal with nuclear a distant 2nd. The thinking is that charging a plugin hybrid over night would not impact the power grid and save on imported oil. For all the short trips, less than 10-20 miles we could be using our car in electric only mode. It is still not practical due to the high cost of decent sized batteries. No free lunch, just the difference between eating at the Four Seasons or McDonald's.
This is VERY old news. The electric cables are very identifiable with bright orange. Unfortunately there have been some spectacular deadly crashes with the 04 > Prius and none have resulted in any harm to rescue workers. That doesn't mean it can't happen.
Excerpted from an article ("How Hybrids Work") in the June issue of Scientific American:
"The overall fuel efficiency and environmental impact of any transportation include extracting or producing the fuel, getting it to the vehicle and consuming it on board. Calculations of this so-called well-to-wheel efficiency by various experts put hybrids at the top of automobile types. Representative numbers from the American Society of Mechanical Engineers tell the tale: gasoline, 19%; all electric, 21%; hydrogen fuel cell, 27%; gasoline-electric hybrid, 32%."
That is interesting. Seems there is a difference of studies. Toyota says the Prius is 32% efficient. They claim their FCHV fuel cell vehicle is 50% Well to Wheel efficient. They are shooting for 60%.
Comments
Anyone remember standing in line for 2 hours for 8 gallons of gas? Where were you in '73, or '79?
The alternative to a hybrid is a 500 gal. gas tank next to my tool shed- $1,000 for the tank and $1,500 more for 6 months of gas. Plus instalation. I checked. :confuse:
If you're going to save the world, start small. If you can't do it all yourself, don't just quit.
Oil dependency is reduced one mile per gallon per person at a time.
The alternative to a hybrid is a 500 gal. gas tank next to my tool shed- $1,000 for the tank and $1,500 more for 6 months of gas. Plus instalation. I checked."
Not a real good idea - gas goes bad...
I wonder if Toyota would ever consider such a thing for a Prius? A Prius wagon sounds like a good bet to me ...!
They "are" supposedly going to have a hatchback coupe in the 2006 models, but nothing I have seen or read has said that the HCH and the other 4 dr models will be any different..... :confuse:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8272373/site/newsweek/
http://www.earthtoys.com/emagazine.php?issue_number=05.06.01&article=naftc
HCH will be different!
Any links? Anyone know? :confuse:
1. They have a somewhat distinct advantage by having hybrid models of mainstream vehicles - unlike the Prius which is "different" in it's styling (some people like it, some don't). Many people want a "normal" looking car with hybrid components.
2. Honda saves money across the line by not creating different body styles on the same name (rather different from the GM business model). So all Civics will share the same basic sheet metal, same for Accord. I don't think Honda is anticipating creating a completely separate line of hybrid cars, which would have different styling if they did go that direction.
Time will confirm that the HCH will be styled differently from the regaular Civic. How differently I dont know--but definitely there will be a marked difference from the way the current HCH resembles the current Civics.
I have read the official news myself and sooner or later(assuming you do follow the news) everyone else will find this out.
In a future date I will do a "I told you so post".
That's why I am waiting for you to point me to the story you saw. I searched the Globe and Mail Canada website and that other site you mentioned for stories last Friday June 17th which said anything about the HCH being styled differently, and I found nothing. :confuse:
Can you point me to a story? Google News cannot find one. Thanks.....
"The new hybrid model will have more significant differences in exterior and interior styling and options to distinguish it from the gasoline-only model, according to Mendel.
"It won't be as different from a conventional Civic as Prius is from a [Toyota] Corolla," Mendel said. "There will be a couple of unique colors only for this model and we will identify it better as the hybrid version." He did not elaborate."
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-civic17jun17,1,5841833.story?coll=la-headlines-busin- - ess
No manufacturer has been more aggressive in bringing hybrids to market than Toyota. So you can imagine my surprise when I read the results of an interview with the Japanese automaker's new chief of research and development. According to Kazuo Okamato, hybrid technology just doesn't make sense for American motorists. Actually make that dollars and cents. Okamato told the Financial Times that "when you just use the argument of fuel efficiency," the technology is "not justified." In other words, you can't save enough money on gas to pay off the higher price for a hybrid vehicle. That's not to say Okamato is writing off the technology. A hybrid's biggest appeal, he suggests, is to those who want to do their part to save the environment, something you can't always work into an economic equation. That's the sort of logic that has confounded many of Toyota's competitors, including General Motors. But the long waiting list for Toyota's hybrids suggests American buyers are clearly motivated by more than just economics.
I, and so many others have said this. I told you so.
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/June2005/07/c8852.html
From the story:
Accord Hybrid $2952 cheaper over 5 years...
My personal cost was only $1524 over a comparable EX model. So mine will pay in less than 4 years, GAS SAVINGS alone.
Generalities are fine, but there are exceptions to EVERY rule......
If I find further web proof, I will provide the link on this forum
larsb, "Hybrids in the News" #2232, 21 Jun 2005 10:34 am
It talks a little about the "differentiation" but it does not say that the body styles will be different. My guess is that it will be a little more than now (the HCH has a different front air scoop and different antenna and a hybrid badge) but nothing drastic.
They will certainly be nothing like the huge complete body difference like the Prius and all the other Toyota cars.
Railroadjames(Prius is where its at)
http://www.autoextremist.com
500mpg with a hybrid plugin is bogus according to autoextremist! Is it really bogus?
If a city driver does not drive over 20miles a day (such a driver represents a large percentage of drivers) then the electrical motor will be the primary form of locomotion for hybrid plug ins. Gas engine usage would be minimal! So 500mpg is not bogus at all. Appears autoextremist's views are so extreme that they cant understand such a simple notion as a plug in hybrid!
I cant find one valid argument in autoextremist that refutes what Friedman wrote about GM/Toyota?
Are there any forum members here who can find any autoextremist statements that resemble reality? Please let me know?
Thanks
And you think Autoextremist is slanted in it's thinking??
GM is not alone! Ford, VW and MB have unaffordable wages and benefit obligations relative to Toyota/Honda/Nissan! The superiority of the Japanese have more to do with its lack of obligations ( more money for R & D)
Having said that would Toyota want to inherit GM"s financial burdens? In the end these are the alternatives if GM defaults on its obligations:
1) The US taxpayer picks up the tab and pays GM retirees /workers their healthcare/pension benefits
2) GM retirees are left holding the bag without any penison/healthcare benefits that they rightfully earned.
3) Toyota negoitates an agreement with GM/US government/labor unions in assuming a portion of these obligations as a part of a acquistion agreement.
IMO I think alternative 3 looks more tempting
pardon my ignorance but why is 500mpg not probable for a plug in hybrid. Especially for someone who drives/works in the city and does not go beyond 20 miles a day. Is the technology not here today for someone to plug in a hybrid and use solely an electrical motor for 20 miles without gas?
Well, I'm certainly not going to try and convince you to follow the Autoextremist point of view, but the above statement is incorrect. Autoextremist is considered a "legitimate" journalistic site and they are invited to all the usual press deals. Additionally, the creator has decades of experience in the auto industry which makes him an "expert auto reviewer" in my book. More so than Friedman, that's for sure.
And as far as being "pro domestic anti import", you've obviously never read his numerous rants against GM. No, he's pretty even-handed as far as I can see, but I suppose if your opinions tend to be at the extremes, someone in the middle can seem to be way out of whack...
Hmm, you are aware this is pronounced to rhyme with foe? Foe News?
What bothers me about these sort of claims is not that they are technically impossible, but rather that they assume the existance of things that don't yet exist. We don't have 4 gallons of alcohol to add for every gallon of gasoline. We don't have the electrical genereration capacity to make hydrogen for the ill-named hydrogen economy. We don't even have an electrical distribution system that would permit everyone to have a plug-in hybrid so that they could recharge their vehicle overnight.
When petroleum finally does run its course, we will have some real problems. We need well thought ideas, not extremist ones.
The question is not free electricity. The point is plug in hybrids will use a source of energy that is cheaper than petroleum. It will make us less oil dependent to a volatile part of the world. New electricity can be generated by new nuclear plants which may be more economical than other energy alternatives.
The point about hybrids is about saving fuel and low emissions. And plug ins wii enhance both fuel efficiency and low emissions.
The hottest marketing concept for cars today is fuel efficiency! I know that there are many who will love a plug in hybrid and wont mind the hassles of plugging it in a wall during the night. In fact I dont even consider it a hassle at all. My wife's 83 Mercedes 300d has to be plugged in daily during cold winter nights---this fact has not burdened us at all!
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/epm/tablees1b.html
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?article_id=2402§ion_id=14&page_number=1#item1
But let us hope that in a some future date battery technology will be good enough to provide reasonable priced plug in hybrids.
WIth high petro prices---I think the race to develop better batteries has become a higher priority than before.
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/050329/295343.html?.v=1
"The overall fuel efficiency and environmental impact of any transportation include extracting or producing the fuel, getting it to the vehicle and consuming it on board. Calculations of this so-called well-to-wheel efficiency by various experts put hybrids at the top of automobile types. Representative numbers from the American Society of Mechanical Engineers tell the tale:
gasoline, 19%; all electric, 21%; hydrogen fuel cell, 27%; gasoline-electric hybrid, 32%."
jprice SoCal '05 Silver, #1, 5500 miles, [non-permissible content removed]. mileage 46.5MPG
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/special/fchv/fchv_1.html
Good article on fuel cells:
http://www.limtechnology.com/Pages/fuelcells.htm