I can't even believe there is a person who thinks hybrids are not green
It would be hard to refute that the hybrids are green from an emissions standpoint. I imagine there are those that are still questioning the additional pollution created during the manufacturing process.
When I'm stopped at a light with my engine not even running, while there's a 4 inch diesel exhaust pipe attached to a F350 pumping smokey diesel fumes against my drivers side window.... Which is greener? If I'm traveling 700-900 miles per tank averaging around 55-65MPG then it's not only Honda making money by selling a great car, but I too am saving money.
Given the wild success of hybrid vehicles and their general owner satisfaction, sounds like more greedy anti-capitalistic rhetoric to me.
So why are auto manufacturers not keen about differentiating the styling of their hybrids(hybrid Camry,Highlander,RX400h, CIvic,Accord, Escape)
Answer according to the writer in WSJ:
But we are also a far-seeing corporation. We recognize that the Prius's distinctiveness may be a wasting asset for reasons outlined in this letter. Other motorists may see the Prius operator and think "sucker." Our lawyers advise us this may affect your car's resale value. Toyota regrets any inconvenience.
You still miss the whole idea of the Prius dont you? It is different because it was intentionally designed to appeal to a different segment of buyer than the standard sedan cookie-cutter design.... and it worked perfectly. Toyota can afford to take risks and try to develop something different. Other carmakers are not able to take these risks preferring to wait until the market demands movement; ( see GM/MB/BMW release today ).
OK that's done now and the 'early adopters' have stated their approval. Flatworlders will never be convinced. Now steps 3 and 4 and beyond go to the heart of the market.
The public has been shown the technology works. With the HSD Camry on the horizon along with the Altima and Ford's new hybrid sedan, these will far outsell the Prius. It's served it's purpose 'to go before'. Time to move on.
PS: Wanna make a bet there is a diesel hybrid or two tooling around some track at a Toyota/HOnda plant that gets 70ish mpg. When the time is right.
We get the journal at my office, but someone posted the text of the article on a Prius forum. I actually had to laugh at it. You folks take editorial content way too seriously. It was all tongue and cheek. Get over it and move on. I agree with Mr Spyder. I can't ever remember a car getting so much press.
That was not my point! As you yourself have read, it was the writer's point of view thatt Prius buyers will be viewed as suckers for being swayed into paying a hefty premium price for their car and believing the bogus environmental claims made about their product!
In my view Diesel hybrids would be wonderful. I am willing to wager that the first diesel hybrids will be sold first as expensive German cars and later go mainstream as Hondas and Toyotas. The Frankfurt Auto Show had a concept hybrid diesel MB S Class.
That was not my point! As you yourself have read, it was the writer's point of view thatt Prius buyers will be viewed as suckers for being swayed into paying a hefty premium price for their car and believing the bogus environmental claims made about their product!
I'd like to see that writer's take on the people (some might call them "suckers") who pay $4000 for alloy wheels, or thousands for "appearance packages", or who bought gas guzzlers right before gas prices shot up over $2 a gallon. But we'll never see an article like that. People who buy hybrids are an easier target.
Other motorists may see the Prius operator and think "sucker."
Yes that is his opinion! Is it my opinion? No, sucker is a strong word! I myself am not excited about the current generation of hybirds. BUT I am looking forward to the future generation of hybrids that are cheaper, lighter and more fuel efficient! Then I may join the Faithful among this forum.
Not only are 40mpg or better vehicles readily available in other nations, but there is a considerable pent-up demand for such autos in the U.S., according to the 40mpg.org/CSI survey. More than 12 percent of Americans -- an estimated 2.5 million consumers -- say that they "have faced a delay in getting the fuel-efficient car [they] wanted or were concerned enough about reports of delays not to proceed with purchasing such a vehicle." The bottlenecks and shortages in the supplies of more fuel-efficient vehicles in the U.S. is now so great that the number of frustrated American consumers (12 percent) is actually slightly bigger than those (11 percent) who have successfully made such a purchase.
"Petroleum not consumed by Prius owners is not "saved". It does not stay in the ground. It is consumed by someone else. Greenhouse gases are still released."
True in part, but in REALITY, the gas that WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSUMED by the driver of the Prius in the car he/she MIGHT have purchased had the Prius not been available is not consumed by THAT PRIUS DRIVER.
That means all that unused fuel will be there 25-50 years from now. It delays the consumption, and reduces overall fuel use TODAY, NOW.
By that ridiculous logic:
Why buy a water-saving shower head/toilet/washer? Someone else will just use the water.
Why buy a more energy efficient refrigerator? Someone else will just use the electricity.
Why insulate your home and use less electricity? Someone else will just suck that up.
Why shop at Wal-Mart and save $20 on your grocery bill? Someone else will buy those groceries at Safeway anyway.
I just read the same article on the Yahoo biz site. Fascinating stats. In the past, people never warmed up to small cars. Now that gas is over $2 in some parts of the country, things have changed. It will be nice if we are able to eventually buy some of these cars. The BMW that gets 50mpg sounds exciting!!!
What they dont say in that article regarding the Enigma is that high performance electric motors were used that are expensive and the battery pack must be cycled in a way that it is replaced every two to four years, at a cost of ten grand for this specific model.
Toyota + Honda - 14,944. Ford is unknown at this point. Nov is generally a low sales month.
So far in 2005 Civic has sold 23,336, Accord - 16,106, Insight 624. Insight has improved over 2004. Looks like there is good market for 2-seater vehicles when gas prices are high.
After years of pooh-poohing hybrid technology, key German automakers are doing an about-face.
BMW AG and DaimlerChrysler AG have joined General Motors in an alliance to develop a two-mode hybrid drive. Audi, Volkswagen and Porsche have partnered to develop hybrid SUVs.
Can a car company really be called green? Sure, the notion may seem far-fetched. But if anyone can, it might be Toyota (TM ). The Japanese auto maker has gotten great mileage lately out of its Prius gasoline/electric hybrid. Toyota has sold over 400,000 of these fuel-sippers and is now expanding its hybrid lineup by at least 10 other vehicles.
Less well known are Toyota's efforts to reduce emissions from smokestacks as well as tailpipes. In the past 15 years, Toyota has cut its carbon-dioxide emissions in Japan to 1.78 million tons annually, from 2.12 million tons, while globally, C02 emissions per car produced are down 15% since 2002.
...no mention of the big truck plant Toyota just opened in Texas to increase their output of, well, big trucks. Wonder how that'll affect their CO2 output?
Actually, the article might have mentioned that in this quote:
That has been helped by Toyota's bumper profits of $10 billion for the year to March -- money that has been poured into investment in newer, cleaner factories.
Not necessary to mention that, if there are buyers for the extra Trucks. There might not be. Toyota knows they need trucks to compete in that market.
Regardless of that fact, they are in fact GOING THE CORRECT DIRECTION in that CO2 is going DOWN and MPG is going UP.
By the way, how many Hybrids has GM sold? Ford? A few thousand, at most? Toyota is over 513,000 worldwide.
I agree. As much as Toyota wants a greener planet they can't turn their backs on business that can be earned by truck buyers. Segment your business and you could end it.
This vehicle will be very interesting - an electric motor at every wheel, quick recharge using plug-in.
"It's our version of the next stage of hybrid development," Wayne Killan, vice president of marketing for Mitsubishi, said in a phone interview. The car was prompted by fuel prices in the U.S.
Mitsubishi unveiled a Miev concept this year at the Tokyo Motor Show. It basically was a Mitsubishi Lancer with the wheels driven by individual electric motors powered by a lithium-ion battery pack.
And unlike the Lancer, it comes with a 1.1-liter, 3-cylinder gasoline engine--along with the electric motors at the wheels.
"We decided we would need gas and electric for the U.S. market. With electric motors powering each wheel, it not only can operate as a pure electric but you don't need a conventional transmission and save a lot of space and weight for even better mileage," Killan said.
In gas mode, the batteries would recharge as the car was driven. In electric mode only, the batteries would have to be recharged by plugging into a wall socket.
Killan said there is no estimate on driving range in electric mode, but the estimated recharging time would be a scant 10 minutes. He couldn't say, however, whether that would be a partial charge to give you enough juice to get to a socket for a full charge or whether it would be a full charge.
"We would expect the car to be used in electric-only mode only in cities, where you could have access to a quick charge," he said.
I read the article over the weekend. It does have factual errors. I also wrote back to the author explaining discrepancies. That article is full of crap.
I think there are a lot of misconceptions about just what is the place of the Toyota Prius in the current automobile market.
There is one very telling thing that people forget about the current Prius: it is classed as a mid-sized car by the EPA, and as such is in the same class as the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. I've sat inside the curent Prius and when I moved the front seats for best legroom comfort I was impressed by how much rear legroom was still available.
Given that the current Accord or Camry four-cylinder models usually cost about US$20,000 out the door decently equipped, for only a few thousand more you can get a Prius, which is a true direct competitor to the Accord or Camry I-4 models.
Also, one thing people often miss about the Prius is that the way the vehicle works encourages frugal driving. If you look at the center LCD panel, there is a display that shows estimated fuel efficiency in MPG and also how much the battery is being recharged; this actually makes you want to to drive moderately to get the maximum fuel efficiency and recharging of the battery pack.
If I had the money (and willing to wait three months) I'd get a Prius myself. :shades:
The Camry and Accord are quite a bit larger then the Prius II and both have a much more solid ride. If the Prius II was a sedan instead of a hatch, it would be a compact like the larger Ford Focus ZX3/ZX5 or smaller Civic.
Accord Passenger Vol: 103 cu. ft./Luggage Vol: 14 cu. ft. Camry Passenger Vol: 102 cu. ft./Luggage Vol: 17 cu. ft. Prius II Passenger Vol: 96 cu. ft./Luggage Vol: 16 cu. ft. Focus ZX3/ZX5 Passenger Vol: 94 cu. ft./Luggage Vol: 19 cu. ft. Civic Passenger Vol: 91 cu. ft./Luggage Vol: 13 cu. ft.
Brand new Accord LX’s and Camry LE’s are heading out the door for sub-$18K. The Prius (even the stripper version w/out mats and side/side curtain air bags) is hitting the street at > $22.5K.
I am not saying the std. Accord/Camry is a better or worse choice as you lose a bunch of FE but the Accord/Camry’s in their LX/LE variants have a lot going for them over and above the Prius II in terms of out the door pricing, size, ride, handling, and safety
As far as safety is concerned I beg to differ. The Prius has VSC where the Pre 06 Accord DON'T. Looking at all the crash test data, I would not be surprised if the Prius was actually better than an Accord. One thing I did see is that the Prius II is 1 point shy of the BMW 3 series in European testing. Nice company indeed. As to ride, I'd have to agree with you. If the VW Jetta TDI (06+) proves reliable, it may be a great sleeper.
Conclusion.... IMHO... the Prius is AS safe and possibly safer than and Accord. I'd feel VERY safe if I end up buying one. I would NOT buy an Accord because it's too common.
The Prius and the Passat are, within fractions of inches, the same size. Both are midsized vehicles. The govt goes by interior room and wheelbase length.
The Prius is bought normally in the top trim level. It is not bought by the frugal LE/LX buyer and it was never intended for them. The marketing has been astoundingly astute in that the demographics of the buyer are in no way similar to the CamCord economy buyer. The Civic, Corolla, focus buyer was never the target either.
This is the key point the press misses in the comparos. There is a segment in the US market willing to pay high $20K's for a very fuel efficient clean vehicle. Nothing more nothing less. Toyota have discovered that this segment exists and is delivering what these buyers want. Other carmakers missed out in their research.
Hybrid Technologies, Inc. (OTCBB:HYBT) www.hybridtechnologies.com is pleased to announce that pursuant to executive meetings at Frito Lay's world headquarters a preliminary joint marketing venture and principle acquisition of Hybrid Technologies' lithium vehicles has been approved by Frito Lay. Furthering Hybrid's ongoing corporate fleet sales and marketing initiatives, Frito Lay has agreed to purchase and take delivery of the highly acclaimed lithium Mini Cooper model as well as the Daimler Chrysler Smart Car lithium version.
The vehicles will be part of Frito Lay's rapidly expanding Hybrid fleet and the multinational corporation's commitment to "green philosophy" as well as its well known philosophy of working with the latest in American technology.
Looks to me like the Prius is much closer to the Matrix than the Passat. The length and width is much more Matrix like than Passat. Also, the passenger space is the same and the Matrix has more cargo space.
04/05 Toyota Prius II: Frontal D/P: 5*/4* Side F/R: 4*/4* Rollover: 4*
05/06 Toyota Camry: Frontal D/P: 5*/5* Side F/R: 4*/3* Rollover: 4*
04 Toyota Camry: Frontal D/P: 4*/4* Side F/R: 4*/3* Rollover: 4*
The European Accord is the TSX over here minus some US required safety equipment.
Conclusion? If you believe the Prius’ VSC makes up for her Toyota Echo based, non-independent underpinnings, you haven’t driven all 3 automobiles.
Styling and commonality Personal choice of course but more people in the US purchase Accord’s (342,923 not incl. the AH), Camry’s (398,379), Civic’s (281,444 not incl. the HCH), and Corolla’s (316,014), then Prius II’s (98,870) 05 YTD.
Kdhspyder, The EPA sizes automobiles by cu. ft. of passenger and cu. ft. of cargo with a few twists (Station wagons as just one example). They do not use wheelbase. As previously posted, the Prius made the mid-size cutoff because of the hatch. If the Prius II were a sedan, it would not have met the 110 cu. ft. minimum requirement. If you believe it is larger then a Camry/Accord, good for you because a hatch is worth something to all of us but most of us do sit in the front and rear seats
Toyota Camry: Passenger: 101.8 cu. ft. - Cargo: 16.7 cu. ft. Honda Accord: Passenger: 102.7 cu. ft. - Cargo: 14 cu. ft. Honda Accord EX +: Passenger: 97.7 cu. ft. - Cargo: 14 cu. ft. Toyota Prius: Passenger: 96.2 cu. ft. - Cargo: 16.1 cu. ft.
In terms of emissions, the PZEV Accord is cleaner then the Prius II. Tier II/Bin2 vs. Tier II/Bin 3 on any fuel available in the US. They are ~ equivalent on LS fuels.
Stripper Accord/Camry LX/LE vs. stripper Prius II? If you care to go upscale, we can all do that too. The brand new 05 (PZEV based) EX-L w/ NAVI cost me $23,200 + TTL. The voice activated NAVI can be manipulated while going down the road, the heated - leather - 8-way power seats w/ Lumbar adj. are very comfortable, and the tilt/telescopic wheel can be adjusted just right The loaded up Prius II w/ NAVI is quite a bit more expensive then either the Camry XLE w/ NAVI or the Accord EX-L w/ NAVI. I love Bluetooth, S/S, and BA but not for another $6,000 ($29,381 + TTL for the Prius II w/ Package E and floor mats in the Chicago area) I don’t!
The Prius II’s FE is what sets it apart from the other automobiles available to us in the US and she would allow maybe 65 mpg lifetime miles per gallon vs. the Accord’s ~ 48. I like the Prius II’s exterior styling but dislike its F&R seating ergonomics and rear view from the driver seat
WOW... didn't know that the Prius was an Echo!! Did they stretch the wheelbase?? I've driven the Prius many times. Are you saying the Accord is a MUCH safer car? I don't think so. Look at my links. They don't lie. Bottom line???? The Prius and BMW 3 series (twice the price nearly!!!) are in the same crash ratings category (excellent). Gotta love it!!! Folks... don't be disuaded. The Prius is an exceptionally safe car.
Xcel... McDonalds sells more burgers than Cheesecake Factory... Which tastes better??? Sales numbers don't mean a car is better.
Why would you think a Prius II is an Echo? The only thing they have in common is their block and suspensions. The Camry and Accord have a much higher quality set of suspension underpinnings then the Prius II by far.
Are you saying the Accord is a MUCH safer car
I never wrote that but the Accord is a safer car as the front passenger crash dummy did not receive the same impact in the Accord as it did in the Prius II. You can look at the Safercar.gov site all you want because I posted the actual ratings they posted. Make sure you tell your SO about that as he/she will be sitting in that passenger seat most of the time they are with you I would presume?
Xcel... McDonalds sells more burgers than Cheesecake Factory... Which tastes better???
As for sales numbers, if you want to spend $29.3 K + TTL for a loaded up Prius II, feel free. I am simply posting an alternative that just so happens to be larger, safer, more comfortable, cleaner emitting, faster, and a far less expensive automobile even when loaded to the headliner. I do wish the Prius II’s HSD was in my Accord however as that is one amazing piece of Automobile HW With that, I belive I purchased the Cheesecake Factory meal where as you may be purchasing the McDonald’s/BK’s/Wendy’s Combo w/ a very expensive ketchup topping. I am exaggerating for levity of course
Your stats bear out exactly what I was saying. The Prius and Passat are considered midsize vehicles due to the wheelbase lengths.. even tho the Matrix and Elantra and other compact vehicles have more or less the same interior room. I believe that I read somewhere that the arbitrary dimension for midsized vs compact is 105" wheelbase. I'm open to being corrected on this.
Note the highlighted dimensions. The Prius and the Passat are the same vehicle.
Oh the overall length... see C&D's road test on the new Passat. It is essentially a 'supersized' Golf. They took it off the Audi frame and put it on an extened Golf frame. The overall length/width serves two purposes it hangs over the frame to make it look larger.. and by European law they have to incorporate 'pedestrian protection' into the vehicles. They imply that a lot of new vehicle there will have this large 'overhang' to keep from crunching pedestrians.
I'll pass on the Accord. Thanks. I think the Prius is just as safe from what I've read. I'll also get double the mileage based on what I see people getting in the Accords with 4cyl engines. I also thought the Prius was cleaner than the Accord. Is the Accord cleaner?? Impressive...I keep learning stuff here!!!
I may just end up getting a 3 Series Bimmer or the IS when prices come down. I still like the Prius. I do NOT like the Accord as I'd never find it in a parking lot.
You arent really quoting the NHTSA ratings on these vehicles are you? You know that they are not truly representitive of real world situations. The IIHS ratings are. The governments ratings are minimum indicators. All three vehicles are good. Both the Camry and Accord are excellent in the IIHS tests also as will the Prius likely be based on the Euro NCAP tests which are the same as the IIHS.
Thanks for the correction of the wheelbase/pass volume criteria. I know very well tho that the Prius is not the same size as a CamCord/AltNota. I only said it more comparable to a Passat.( see prior post ) which is also a midsized vehicle.
Again the comparison between a Prius and anything else is a nonissue.. trust me on this from daily meetings with the public. They are not crossshopping the Cam/Cords with the Prius. They either like the Prius and buy it... or they don't. And there are a lot of people who do like it very much. It really is apples and oranges.
Toyota has put the Prius in a place where it has no real competition. You cannot get all the combination of features/benefits with any other vehicle. If you are against it for style, hype, power, room, etc. then you wont buy it. For lots of people it fits them perfectly and they love everything about it. It's not a big deal.
It's a success because simply Toyota recognized something the others did not.
I do hope you choose the Prius II over and above the IS or Beemer as the FE and emissions are far better then either of those 2 other then the Beemer’s CA. spec’ed ones. Make sure you use Edmunds TCO calc’s for $/mile driven no matter which automobile you choose. The $ outlay numbers they provide might just change your mind about the IS and Beemer. It may also change your mind about a stripped or loaded up Prius II as well By comparison to the Accord of course
In regards to the Accord, it has a panic feature to find your car in parking lots and stands a bit taller then the Prius II. I usually park my Accord at home however and have never lost it there since I have owned it
Actual FE I do not know what you will receive in a Prius II, Accord, Beemer, or IS but I know what the Accord is worth on E10 over the last 8 months. See previous posts sig.
Of course I used the NHTSA figures as they are easy to get to. The IIHS used to have a detailed analysis of crash test ratings as well. Here are the Accord’s and Camry’s. Please provide the Prius II’s when and where you find them
Overall: G - G Head protection: G/G - G/G Head/neck: G/G - G/G Torso: G/G - G/G Pelvis/leg: G/G - A/G Structure/safety cage: M - A *****************************
They are not cross shopping the Cam/Cords with the Prius.
Could you tell me what they (the Prius purchasing public) are cross shopping against then? I have a hard time believing it would be Cobalt’s and Neon’s? I would think the Civic/Accord and Corolla/Camry would be the 4 exact vehicles the Prius II is usually shopped against?
I am not downplaying the Prius II’s market or its sales numbers in the least. It is the right car for this country over and above all others for a multitude of reasons. # 1 being its real world FE no matter who drives it. I am however pointing out that there are quite a few shortcuts that Toyota took in the Prius II’s design so it would look great on paper when in fact you will be paying a bundle for HSD on top of a lowly setup suspension package and relatively poor ergonomics vs. many other $21 - $30K automobiles. This thread’s news items and subsequent posts has pointed out enough attributes for the average consumer to take a good look at the facts and details as it pertains to their driving habits, wants, and needs if the Prius II is at the top of their respective short list. This is a much better way to purchase an automobile then by gut instinct, the “wow” of standing on the showroom floor, or driving a Prius II as you transition into EV mode for the very first time. That feature or the IMA’s Auto-Stop is the real “wow” the first time I drove either and I would have to assume that this is the #1 wow most others enjoy as well?
The Prius I've driven are more comfortable than my Mercedes. I have a C230 coupe. A mutlitude of adjustments for the seat to say the least. Comfort is a personal choice. I can't take 2 hours in the Merc, but took 6 hours in the Prius. Go figure!! A nice alternative to the Prius is the VW TDI. Even tho it has service issues, most of them are okay.
Comments
This is unbelievable.........
Why does the EPA score clearly show them to be?
Are you saying the WSJ article is accusing the EPA of being incorrect in their emissions testing?
Whatever the WSJ might have discovered does not "magically" eliminate those scientific facts....
It would be hard to refute that the hybrids are green from an emissions standpoint. I imagine there are those that are still questioning the additional pollution created during the manufacturing process.
Precisely, it is stated in the correct Section. Nothing more and nothing else. Yes I read the paper today.
Next opinion, please.
Which is greener?
If I'm traveling 700-900 miles per tank averaging around 55-65MPG then it's not only Honda making money by selling a great car, but I too am saving money.
Given the wild success of hybrid vehicles and their general owner satisfaction, sounds like more greedy anti-capitalistic rhetoric to me.
The Wall Street Journal is renowned for their Marxist views :P
Opinions, opinions!
Is this not what this forum is all about?
Here is another opionion:
So why are auto manufacturers not keen about differentiating the styling of their hybrids(hybrid Camry,Highlander,RX400h, CIvic,Accord, Escape)
Answer according to the writer in WSJ:
But we are also a far-seeing corporation. We recognize that the Prius's distinctiveness may be a wasting asset for reasons outlined in this letter. Other motorists may see the Prius operator and think "sucker." Our lawyers advise us this may affect your car's resale value. Toyota regrets any inconvenience.
OK that's done now and the 'early adopters' have stated their approval. Flatworlders will never be convinced. Now steps 3 and 4 and beyond go to the heart of the market.
The public has been shown the technology works. With the HSD Camry on the horizon along with the Altima and Ford's new hybrid sedan, these will far outsell the Prius. It's served it's purpose 'to go before'. Time to move on.
PS: Wanna make a bet there is a diesel hybrid or two tooling around some track at a Toyota/HOnda plant that gets 70ish mpg. When the time is right.
That was not my point! As you yourself have read, it was the writer's point of view thatt Prius buyers will be viewed as suckers for being swayed into paying a hefty premium price for their car and believing the bogus environmental claims made about their product!
In my view Diesel hybrids would be wonderful. I am willing to wager that the first diesel hybrids will be sold first as expensive German cars and later go mainstream as Hondas and Toyotas. The Frankfurt Auto Show had a concept hybrid diesel MB S Class.
I'd like to see that writer's take on the people (some might call them "suckers") who pay $4000 for alloy wheels, or thousands for "appearance packages", or who bought gas guzzlers right before gas prices shot up over $2 a gallon. But we'll never see an article like that. People who buy hybrids are an easier target.
are you claiming you never ever read a negative article about gas guzzling SUV drivers? I can tell you I have read quite a number of those!
Or what about those articles about pimp mobiles with expensive alloy wheels? I've read a few of those!
Everybody can be a target, it all depends on who is holding a gun or in this case a pen or keyboard!
Yes that is his opinion! Is it my opinion? No, sucker is a strong word! I myself am not excited about the current generation of hybirds. BUT I am looking forward to the future generation of hybrids that are cheaper, lighter and more fuel efficient! Then I may join the Faithful among this forum.
Not only are 40mpg or better vehicles readily available in other nations, but there is a considerable pent-up demand for such autos in the U.S., according to the 40mpg.org/CSI survey. More than 12 percent of Americans -- an estimated 2.5 million consumers -- say that they "have faced a delay in getting the fuel-efficient car [they] wanted or were concerned enough about reports of delays not to proceed with purchasing such a vehicle." The bottlenecks and shortages in the supplies of more fuel-efficient vehicles in the U.S. is now so great that the number of frustrated American consumers (12 percent) is actually slightly bigger than those (11 percent) who have successfully made such a purchase.
That wsj commentary said:
"Petroleum not consumed by Prius owners is not "saved". It does not stay in the ground. It is consumed by someone else. Greenhouse gases are still released."
True in part, but in REALITY, the gas that WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSUMED by the driver of the Prius in the car he/she MIGHT have purchased had the Prius not been available is not consumed by THAT PRIUS DRIVER.
That means all that unused fuel will be there 25-50 years from now. It delays the consumption, and reduces overall fuel use TODAY, NOW.
By that ridiculous logic:
Why buy a water-saving shower head/toilet/washer? Someone else will just use the water.
Why buy a more energy efficient refrigerator? Someone else will just use the electricity.
Why insulate your home and use less electricity? Someone else will just suck that up.
Why shop at Wal-Mart and save $20 on your grocery bill? Someone else will buy those groceries at Safeway anyway.
It's ridiculous thinking.
http://www.toyota.com/about/news/corporate/2005/12/01-1-sales.html
Prius - 7,889
HH - 2,353
RX400 - 1,722
Toyota - 11,964
http://corporate.honda.com/press/article.aspx?id=2005120148639
Civic - 2,083
Accord - 837
Insight - 60
Honda - 2,980
Toyota + Honda - 14,944.
Ford is unknown at this point. Nov is generally a low sales month.
So far in 2005
Civic has sold 23,336, Accord - 16,106, Insight 624.
Insight has improved over 2004. Looks like there is good market for
2-seater vehicles when gas prices are high.
Did Prius sell its quota of 100,000 in USA.
So yes, they will hit 100,000 in the USA.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/12/01/153635.html
Hybrids are SO EXPENSIVE that this guy waited until he won the Lottery to buy one !!!
Very well written. Enjoy!!
After years of pooh-poohing hybrid technology, key German automakers are doing an about-face.
BMW AG and DaimlerChrysler AG have joined General Motors in an alliance to develop a two-mode hybrid drive. Audi, Volkswagen and Porsche have partnered to develop hybrid SUVs.
Can a car company really be called green? Sure, the notion may seem far-fetched. But if anyone can, it might be Toyota (TM ). The Japanese auto maker has gotten great mileage lately out of its Prius gasoline/electric hybrid. Toyota has sold over 400,000 of these fuel-sippers and is now expanding its hybrid lineup by at least 10 other vehicles.
Less well known are Toyota's efforts to reduce emissions from smokestacks as well as tailpipes. In the past 15 years, Toyota has cut its carbon-dioxide emissions in Japan to 1.78 million tons annually, from 2.12 million tons, while globally, C02 emissions per car produced are down 15% since 2002.
That has been helped by Toyota's bumper profits of $10 billion for the year to March -- money that has been poured into investment in newer, cleaner factories.
Not necessary to mention that, if there are buyers for the extra Trucks. There might not be. Toyota knows they need trucks to compete in that market.
Regardless of that fact, they are in fact GOING THE CORRECT DIRECTION in that CO2 is going DOWN and MPG is going UP.
By the way, how many Hybrids has GM sold? Ford? A few
thousand, at most? Toyota is over 513,000 worldwide.
This vehicle will be very interesting - an electric motor at every wheel, quick recharge using plug-in.
"It's our version of the next stage of hybrid development," Wayne Killan, vice president of marketing for Mitsubishi, said in a phone interview. The car was prompted by fuel prices in the U.S.
Mitsubishi unveiled a Miev concept this year at the Tokyo Motor Show. It basically was a Mitsubishi Lancer with the wheels driven by individual electric motors powered by a lithium-ion battery pack.
And unlike the Lancer, it comes with a 1.1-liter, 3-cylinder gasoline engine--along with the electric motors at the wheels.
"We decided we would need gas and electric for the U.S. market. With electric motors powering each wheel, it not only can operate as a pure electric but you don't need a conventional transmission and save a lot of space and weight for even better mileage," Killan said.
In gas mode, the batteries would recharge as the car was driven. In electric mode only, the batteries would have to be recharged by plugging into a wall socket.
Killan said there is no estimate on driving range in electric mode, but the estimated recharging time would be a scant 10 minutes. He couldn't say, however, whether that would be a partial charge to give you enough juice to get to a socket for a full charge or whether it would be a full charge.
"We would expect the car to be used in electric-only mode only in cities, where you could have access to a quick charge," he said.
There is one very telling thing that people forget about the current Prius: it is classed as a mid-sized car by the EPA, and as such is in the same class as the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord. I've sat inside the curent Prius and when I moved the front seats for best legroom comfort I was impressed by how much rear legroom was still available.
Given that the current Accord or Camry four-cylinder models usually cost about US$20,000 out the door decently equipped, for only a few thousand more you can get a Prius, which is a true direct competitor to the Accord or Camry I-4 models.
Also, one thing people often miss about the Prius is that the way the vehicle works encourages frugal driving. If you look at the center LCD panel, there is a display that shows estimated fuel efficiency in MPG and also how much the battery is being recharged; this actually makes you want to to drive moderately to get the maximum fuel efficiency and recharging of the battery pack.
If I had the money (and willing to wait three months) I'd get a Prius myself. :shades:
The Camry and Accord are quite a bit larger then the Prius II and both have a much more solid ride. If the Prius II was a sedan instead of a hatch, it would be a compact like the larger Ford Focus ZX3/ZX5 or smaller Civic.
Accord Passenger Vol: 103 cu. ft./Luggage Vol: 14 cu. ft.
Camry Passenger Vol: 102 cu. ft./Luggage Vol: 17 cu. ft.
Prius II Passenger Vol: 96 cu. ft./Luggage Vol: 16 cu. ft.
Focus ZX3/ZX5 Passenger Vol: 94 cu. ft./Luggage Vol: 19 cu. ft.
Civic Passenger Vol: 91 cu. ft./Luggage Vol: 13 cu. ft.
Brand new Accord LX’s and Camry LE’s are heading out the door for sub-$18K. The Prius (even the stripper version w/out mats and side/side curtain air bags) is hitting the street at > $22.5K.
I am not saying the std. Accord/Camry is a better or worse choice as you lose a bunch of FE but the Accord/Camry’s in their LX/LE variants have a lot going for them over and above the Prius II in terms of out the door pricing, size, ride, handling, and safety
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
The 05/06 Accords come std. with Side and Side Curtains and have better crash test ratings then a Prius II.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Prius Ratings
http://tinyurl.com/cjnr5
BMW 3 series 2005
http://tinyurl.com/9hh37
Honda Accord 2003
http://tinyurl.com/bdh75
Not sure what changed from 2003 onward.
Honda Accord 2006 US Test with SAB
http://tinyurl.com/8xc4t
Prius 2005 w/o SAB
http://tinyurl.com/dwajb
Conclusion....
IMHO... the Prius is AS safe and possibly safer than and Accord. I'd feel VERY safe if I end up buying one. I would NOT buy an Accord because it's too common.
The Prius and the Passat are, within fractions of inches, the same size. Both are midsized vehicles. The govt goes by interior room and wheelbase length.
The Prius is bought normally in the top trim level. It is not bought by the frugal LE/LX buyer and it was never intended for them. The marketing has been astoundingly astute in that the demographics of the buyer are in no way similar to the CamCord economy buyer. The Civic, Corolla, focus buyer was never the target either.
This is the key point the press misses in the comparos. There is a segment in the US market willing to pay high $20K's for a very fuel efficient clean vehicle. Nothing more nothing less. Toyota have discovered that this segment exists and is delivering what these buyers want. Other carmakers missed out in their research.
news to me.....
Hybrid Technologies, Inc. (OTCBB:HYBT) www.hybridtechnologies.com is pleased to announce that pursuant to executive meetings at Frito Lay's world headquarters a preliminary joint marketing venture and principle acquisition of Hybrid Technologies' lithium vehicles has been approved by Frito Lay. Furthering Hybrid's ongoing corporate fleet sales and marketing initiatives, Frito Lay has agreed to purchase and take delivery of the highly acclaimed lithium Mini Cooper model as well as the Daimler Chrysler Smart Car lithium version.
The vehicles will be part of Frito Lay's rapidly expanding Hybrid fleet and the multinational corporation's commitment to "green philosophy" as well as its well known philosophy of working with the latest in American technology.
Prius Passat Matrix
Exterior Length 175.0 " 188.2 " 171.3 "
Exterior Width 67.9 " 71.7 " 69.9 "
Exterior Height 58.1 " 58.0 " 61.6 "
Wheelbase 106 " 107 " 102 "
Front Tread 59 " 61 " 60 "
Rear Tread 58 " 61 " 59 "
Turning Radius 17.1 ' 17.9 ' 18.4 '
Curb Wt 2,890 lbs.3,305 lbs.2,701 lbs.
Front Legroom 41.9 " 41.4 " 41.8 "
Rear Legroom 38.6 " 37.7 " 36.3 "
Front Headroom 39.1 " 38.4 " 40.6 "
Rear Headroom 37.1 " 37.8 " 39.8 "
Fr Shoulder Rm 55.3 " 55.7 " 53.2 "
Rr Shoulder Rm 53.0 " 54.6 " 52.6 "
Psgr Vol 96 cuft 96 cuft 96 cuft
Int Cargo Vol 16.1 cuft 14.2 cuft 21.8 cuft
It isn’t like we have gone back and forth on this one in the recent past but here it is again
NHTSA
04 Honda Accord 4-door:
Frontal D/P: 5*/5* Side F/R: 4*/5* Rollover: 4*
05/06 Honda Accord 4-door:
Frontal D/P: 5*/5* Side F/R: 4*/4* Rollover: 4*
04/05 Toyota Prius II:
Frontal D/P: 5*/4* Side F/R: 4*/4* Rollover: 4*
05/06 Toyota Camry:
Frontal D/P: 5*/5* Side F/R: 4*/3* Rollover: 4*
04 Toyota Camry:
Frontal D/P: 4*/4* Side F/R: 4*/3* Rollover: 4*
The European Accord is the TSX over here minus some US required safety equipment.
Conclusion? If you believe the Prius’ VSC makes up for her Toyota Echo based, non-independent underpinnings, you haven’t driven all 3 automobiles.
News Items:
Toyota Retail Sales - November 2005
Honda Vehicle Sales - November 2005
Styling and commonality Personal choice of course but more people in the US purchase Accord’s (342,923 not incl. the AH), Camry’s (398,379), Civic’s (281,444 not incl. the HCH), and Corolla’s (316,014), then Prius II’s (98,870) 05 YTD.
Kdhspyder, The EPA sizes automobiles by cu. ft. of passenger and cu. ft. of cargo with a few twists (Station wagons as just one example). They do not use wheelbase. As previously posted, the Prius made the mid-size cutoff because of the hatch. If the Prius II were a sedan, it would not have met the 110 cu. ft. minimum requirement. If you believe it is larger then a Camry/Accord, good for you because a hatch is worth something to all of us but most of us do sit in the front and rear seats
How are vehicle classes defined?
Midsize: 110 - 119 Passenger + Cargo Volume (Cu. Ft.)
Toyota Camry: Passenger: 101.8 cu. ft. - Cargo: 16.7 cu. ft.
Honda Accord: Passenger: 102.7 cu. ft. - Cargo: 14 cu. ft.
Honda Accord EX +: Passenger: 97.7 cu. ft. - Cargo: 14 cu. ft.
Toyota Prius: Passenger: 96.2 cu. ft. - Cargo: 16.1 cu. ft.
In terms of emissions, the PZEV Accord is cleaner then the Prius II. Tier II/Bin2 vs. Tier II/Bin 3 on any fuel available in the US. They are ~ equivalent on LS fuels.
Stripper Accord/Camry LX/LE vs. stripper Prius II? If you care to go upscale, we can all do that too. The brand new 05 (PZEV based) EX-L w/ NAVI cost me $23,200 + TTL. The voice activated NAVI can be manipulated while going down the road, the heated - leather - 8-way power seats w/ Lumbar adj. are very comfortable, and the tilt/telescopic wheel can be adjusted just right The loaded up Prius II w/ NAVI is quite a bit more expensive then either the Camry XLE w/ NAVI or the Accord EX-L w/ NAVI. I love Bluetooth, S/S, and BA but not for another $6,000 ($29,381 + TTL for the Prius II w/ Package E and floor mats in the Chicago area) I don’t!
The Prius II’s FE is what sets it apart from the other automobiles available to us in the US and she would allow maybe 65 mpg lifetime miles per gallon vs. the Accord’s ~ 48. I like the Prius II’s exterior styling but dislike its F&R seating ergonomics and rear view from the driver seat
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Xcel... McDonalds sells more burgers than Cheesecake Factory... Which tastes better??? Sales numbers don't mean a car is better.
WOW... didn't know that the Prius was an Echo!!
Why would you think a Prius II is an Echo? The only thing they have in common is their block and suspensions. The Camry and Accord have a much higher quality set of suspension underpinnings then the Prius II by far.
Are you saying the Accord is a MUCH safer car
I never wrote that but the Accord is a safer car as the front passenger crash dummy did not receive the same impact in the Accord as it did in the Prius II. You can look at the Safercar.gov site all you want because I posted the actual ratings they posted. Make sure you tell your SO about that as he/she will be sitting in that passenger seat most of the time they are with you I would presume?
Xcel... McDonalds sells more burgers than Cheesecake Factory... Which tastes better???
As for sales numbers, if you want to spend $29.3 K + TTL for a loaded up Prius II, feel free. I am simply posting an alternative that just so happens to be larger, safer, more comfortable, cleaner emitting, faster, and a far less expensive automobile even when loaded to the headliner. I do wish the Prius II’s HSD was in my Accord however as that is one amazing piece of Automobile HW
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Exterior Length 175.0 " 188.2 " 171.3 "
Exterior Width 67.9 " 71.7 " 69.9 "
Exterior Height 58.1 " 58.0 " 61.6 "
Wheelbase 106 " 107 " 102 "
Front Tread 59 " 61 " 60 "
Rear Tread 58 " 61 " 59 "
Turning Radius 17.1 ' 17.9 ' 18.4 '
Curb Wt 2,890 lbs.3,305 lbs.2,701 lbs.
Front Legroom 41.9 " 41.4 " 41.8 "
Rear Legroom 38.6 " 37.7 " 36.3 "
Front Headroom 39.1 " 38.4 " 40.6 "
Rear Headroom 37.1 " 37.8 " 39.8 "
Fr Shoulder Rm 55.3 " 55.7 " 53.2 "
Rr Shoulder Rm 53.0 " 54.6 " 52.6 "
Psgr Vol 96 cuft 96 cuft 96 cuft
Int Cargo Vol 16.1 cuft 14.2 cuft 21.8 cuft
Your stats bear out exactly what I was saying. The Prius and Passat are considered midsize vehicles due to the wheelbase lengths.. even tho the Matrix and Elantra and other compact vehicles have more or less the same interior room. I believe that I read somewhere that the arbitrary dimension for midsized vs compact is 105" wheelbase. I'm open to being corrected on this.
Note the highlighted dimensions. The Prius and the Passat are the same vehicle.
Oh the overall length... see C&D's road test on the new Passat. It is essentially a 'supersized' Golf. They took it off the Audi frame and put it on an extened Golf frame. The overall length/width serves two purposes it hangs over the frame to make it look larger.. and by European law they have to incorporate 'pedestrian protection' into the vehicles. They imply that a lot of new vehicle there will have this large 'overhang' to keep from crunching pedestrians.
I may just end up getting a 3 Series Bimmer or the IS when prices come down. I still like the Prius. I do NOT like the Accord as I'd never find it in a parking lot.
Thanks for the correction of the wheelbase/pass volume criteria. I know very well tho that the Prius is not the same size as a CamCord/AltNota. I only said it more comparable to a Passat.( see prior post ) which is also a midsized vehicle.
Again the comparison between a Prius and anything else is a nonissue.. trust me on this from daily meetings with the public. They are not crossshopping the Cam/Cords with the Prius. They either like the Prius and buy it... or they don't. And there are a lot of people who do like it very much. It really is apples and oranges.
Toyota has put the Prius in a place where it has no real competition. You cannot get all the combination of features/benefits with any other vehicle. If you are against it for style, hype, power, room, etc. then you wont buy it. For lots of people it fits them perfectly and they love everything about it. It's not a big deal.
It's a success because simply Toyota recognized something the others did not.
I do hope you choose the Prius II over and above the IS or Beemer as the FE and emissions are far better then either of those 2 other then the Beemer’s CA. spec’ed ones. Make sure you use Edmunds TCO calc’s for $/mile driven no matter which automobile you choose. The $ outlay numbers they provide might just change your mind about the IS and Beemer. It may also change your mind about a stripped or loaded up Prius II as well By comparison to the Accord of course
In regards to the Accord, it has a panic feature to find your car in parking lots and stands a bit taller then the Prius II. I usually park my Accord at home however and have never lost it there since I have owned it
Actual FE I do not know what you will receive in a Prius II, Accord, Beemer, or IS but I know what the Accord is worth on E10 over the last 8 months. See previous posts sig.
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes
Of course I used the NHTSA figures as they are easy to get to. The IIHS used to have a detailed analysis of crash test ratings as well. Here are the Accord’s and Camry’s. Please provide the Prius II’s when and where you find them
*****************************
IIHS
05 Honda Accord/05 Toyota Camry
Frontal 40 mph offset
Structure/safety cage: G/G
Head/neck: G/G
Chest: G/G
Leg/foot, left: G/G
Leg/foot, right: G/A
Restraints/dummy kinematics: G/G
Side Impact Driver/Rear Passenger
Overall: G - G
Head protection: G/G - G/G
Head/neck: G/G - G/G
Torso: G/G - G/G
Pelvis/leg: G/G - A/G
Structure/safety cage: M - A
*****************************
They are not cross shopping the Cam/Cords with the Prius.
Could you tell me what they (the Prius purchasing public) are cross shopping against then? I have a hard time believing it would be Cobalt’s and Neon’s? I would think the Civic/Accord and Corolla/Camry would be the 4 exact vehicles the Prius II is usually shopped against?
I am not downplaying the Prius II’s market or its sales numbers in the least. It is the right car for this country over and above all others for a multitude of reasons. # 1 being its real world FE no matter who drives it. I am however pointing out that there are quite a few shortcuts that Toyota took in the Prius II’s design so it would look great on paper when in fact you will be paying a bundle for HSD on top of a lowly setup suspension package and relatively poor ergonomics vs. many other $21 - $30K automobiles. This thread’s news items and subsequent posts has pointed out enough attributes for the average consumer to take a good look at the facts and details as it pertains to their driving habits, wants, and needs if the Prius II is at the top of their respective short list. This is a much better way to purchase an automobile then by gut instinct, the “wow” of standing on the showroom floor, or driving a Prius II as you transition into EV mode for the very first time. That feature or the IMA’s Auto-Stop is the real “wow” the first time I drove either and I would have to assume that this is the #1 wow most others enjoy as well?
Good Luck
Wayne R. Gerdes