The Future of Hybrid Technology

robertsmx · December 2004

I suspect they (Honda/Toyota) will have the production version of such hybrids ready by the time DCX-GM come out with a prototype. Lexus RX400h may be using the first of such system (ICE front, Electric motors on each rear wheel). Honda has showcased several prototypes using multi-motor IMA system (2001 Honda Dual Note/2002 Acura DNX with three electric motors, two mounted in-wheel for 400 HP; 2002 Acura RDX with ICE front and electric motors on each rear wheel for 250 HP; 2003 European Accord Muscle-tech with ICE front and electric motors on each rear wheel for 350 HP).

Acura RDX prototype version has a good chance of being produced, either in RDX (to be launched next year) or perhaps in one of Acuras offerings (TSX can be a good candidate since RDX used 2.4-liter I-4 to go with two 30 HP electric motors).

This is a good reason why I dont appreciate too much PR noise. Deliver it when the product is ready, not when you sign a contract to research into possibilities as partners.

That said, do top down technological developments really work? Or, are Honda, Ford and Toyota expected to do the ground work and the rest will join in later.

larsb · December 2004

Lexus making a GS Hybrid for 2006:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6741147/

larsb · January 2005

This may have been covered elsewhere, but here it applies also:

"The fact that DaimlerChrysler and General Motors will soon be selling vehicles with a hybrid system that's superior to anything on the road today from Ford, Honda, Toyota or anyone else pretty much got lost in the U.S. media coverage of the competitors' announcement of their decision to work on a common two-mode system."

"This is the ''optimal merging of full hybrid and state-of-the-art automatic transmission technologies,'' says Stephens. ''The system is essentially an electrically variable transmission with two hybrid drive modes. Single-mode systems can't provide the range of operating efficiencies that our two-mode system can. Our system reduces fuel consumption at highway speeds much more effectively."

Read the entire article:

http://macleans.auto123.com/en/info/news/news,view.spy?artid=3369- - 5&pg=1

gagrice · January 2005

That is a good article. That hybrid Tahoe may be available about the time I want to sell my Suburban. Although my neighbor hit me up again yesterday to sell it to him. I don't want to buy just anything to replace it and be unhappy. Maybe I'll just get a 3/4 ton PU with diesel and sell the Sub. We should put that article in the GM DCX hybrid thread for those people to read.

mirth · January 2005

I'm sure the GM/DCX system is wonderful, but as I was reading the article I could only think that it sounded enormously complicated as well. When it's working I'm sure it'll be a thing of beauty, but if there's a bug in the programming it sounds like it'll be hard to diagnose.

I guess that worries me about all hybrids. I'm not saying that they're going to break down more than ICE cars, but when they do I'll have to take it to a dealership and I bet it'll take longer to diagnose and be more expensive to fix. Just having to go to the dealer is more expensive - for my 30,000 mile checkup for my sedan, the dealer wanted to charge me $550, while my local and trusted mechanic did it for $300. Not going to be able to get that savings for hybrids. Now add complicated and expensive parts to that, and it's a real worry.

gagrice · January 2005

Just having to go to the dealer is more expensive

That is my worry also. If they know they got you, with any new technology they will stick it to you. Take it from one who knows, dealing with the outrageous charges at Lexus dealerships. My dealings with Toyota, Honda and Subaru on warranty was less than pleasant. So I am gun shy. I have never had that problem with GM dealers. Even when I bought the truck from some other dealer. Thank heavens we have found a great Lexus independent repair facility.

larsb · January 2005

"With Civic Hybrid sales up 17.5 percent to 25,571 for the calendar year and the addition of the all-new Accord Hybrid late in the year, sales of Honda hybrid vehicles rose 18.6 percent to a new record of 27,215 vehicles for the year. December sales of Honda's three hybrid models jumped up 97.2 percent to 3,167 units, bringing total Honda hybrid sales to 74,608 since the introduction of the Insight in December 1999."

Entire Article at:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY=/- www/story/01-04-2005/0002767348&EDATE=

yerth10 · January 2005

Toyota confirms that they will manufacture Hybrid vehicle

in USA. Great news.

Honda says that they will not make any Hybrid SUV as

those who want high mileage vehicle will go for a car.

Thats crazy.

CR-V almost gives the same mileage as Accord,

has the same weight and costs the same, yet

it provides double the cargo capacity and

its rear-seats are reclinable. If you fold

the rear seat, it gives 72 cu. ft. of cargo

capacity. All these are not available in a car.

So what if someone wants a Hybrid CR-V.

And if Honda is really mileage conscious, they must have

launched a V4 Accord. Honda is really going crazy.

Meanwhile Ford plans to launch Mercury Mariner Hybrid

and also demonstrates Diesel-Hybrid concept.

I believe that Ford came in as an Underdog and its going

to pull up a few surprises.

larsb · January 2005

Remember, Honda has always been "cautious" in the truck and SUV and minivan market.

Evidence:

They were one of the last to finally have a minivan, WAY LONG after almost all the other US sellers had minivans.

The first Honda Pilots were actually just re-badged Isuzu Rodeos.

They have YET to make a truck for the US, although I think that is coming.

So they must consider their engineering expertise and their marketing skills targeted more toward sedans and sports cars than larger vehicles.

Just as they had the first Hybrid on US roads in 1999 with the Insight, they wanted also to have the "first V6 Hybrid" ever, and that's why they do not have a V4 Accord Hybrid.

And they setup the Accord Hybrid with the lessons they learned with the Civic Hybrid, meaning you have to have a car "superior to the EX" in the line to make it a Hybrid (and thus make more money on it). For example, if you could get a V4 Hybrid, that would likely KILL the sales of the V6 Accords, at least in their eyes, because they would be marketing the Hybrid as a "better car" and it could be had for far less money than the V6 Accord.

So if they are "crazy", I say they are "crazy like a fox" and are laughing all the way to the bank, with their sales going up in the US by almost 10% in 2004.

dewey · January 2005

"Fukui, who headed Honda's American operations from 1996 to 1998, may be trying to placate the critics. He says he's in no rush to jump into full-size pickups, which he amiably dismisses as "stupid-big." (Businessweek Dec 16, 2004)

With the above atitude is it any wonder that Honda will not pursue hybrid technology in trucks/SUVs!

dewey · January 2005

The GM hybrid system in city buses has been a disapointment! The mileage achieved by buses are not at all close to what GM claimed it to be( a common problem among most hybrids). I read the shortfall in gas saving was so large that the Cities that purchased the buses would never have included them among their fleets.

GM with DCX aims to adopt this system in Tahoes! Good luck to them!

gagrice · January 2005

So if they are "crazy", I say they are "crazy like a fox" and are laughing all the way to the bank, with their sales going up in the US by almost 10% in 2004.

I believe their car sales overall are down for the year 2004 and their SUV & minivan's are carrying the load.

yerth10 · January 2005

Honda's car sales is down 0.4 %

and truck sales is up 4 %

Toyota thinks that its V6 hybrid with electric motor will give V8 performance.

So Toyota thinks that Motor will do the job of 2 cylinders. Honda does not think that way.

We got to see whether Camry and Altima Hybrids has V4 or V6.

robertsmx · January 2005

I agree. Hondas hybrid system is simple and flexible enough to be implemented across the board. That would make me question the companys move in not offering the technology in its light trucks.

robertsmx · January 2005

For AHM, car sales were up 3% and truck sales were up 2.5% for the year (compared to last year). That said, since the early 90s, strength of the automotive business has been with light trucks, so we couldnt blame Honda on emphasizing on light trucks. To provide a perspective of the overall market, some numbers (USA Industry Total):

1993 (Total: 13.9 million)

Light Trucks: 5.4 million (39%)

Car: 8.5 million (61%)

2003 (Total: 16.6 million)

Light Trucks: 9.0 million (54%)

Car: 7.6 million (46%)

It is clear that in a decade, market share determined by cars has shrunk from 61% in 1993 to 46% in 2003. It would make sense for Honda to offer hybrid light trucks as well, knowing where the growth is, and it would be easier to mask the perceived hybrid premium as well.

gagrice · January 2005

There is a very simple explanation for the increase in SUV & PU sales. They are not held to the same CAFE standards or EPA regs as cars are. That is why you see vehicles like the PT Cruiser listed as an SUV. It is the way the automakers bend the rules.

robertsmx · January 2005

I dont think automakers determine how cars are classified, EPA does.

The point of my earlier post was that car market has been shrinking with growth in light truck market, and it makes sense to see a similar trend from Honda (although its car market has shown growth over the same period when overall market has declined).

But this is also to suggest that Honda should offer hybrid light trucks, IMO. I would rather have Odyssey Hybrid based off EX-L version than Odyssey Touring. They may top off with about the same price tag.

larsb · January 2005

" GM Plans Hybrid Malibu For '07

Topic: Future Hybrid Vehicles

General Motors finally is going to get with the program and offer its first gas/electric car in the 2007 model year. GM will introduce a midsize Chevrolet Malibu sedan that uses batteries to assist the gas engine when passing or merging and shuts off its 2.4-liter, 4-cylinder gas engine when idling to conserve fuel and clean the air. It will compete in the hybrid car segment with the Toyota Prius and Honda Accord/Civic hybrids, as well as the midsize Ford Fusion hybrid coming out for '07.

GM will have a sampling of full-size trucks and sport-utility vehicles before '07 that primarily shut off the engine at idle to conserve fuel. And for '05 it will offer midsize SUVs with displacement-on-demand that shuts off four of the engine's eight cylinders when not needed. But GM is mum on its plans to offer other hybrid cars to help it catch up to the Japanese, which by '07 will have a seven-year lead in hybrid technology. We have a strategy in line for our cars that's not far off, but we'll probably say more in Detroit, said Jim Queen, GM vice president of North American engineering, referring to the auto show in January. Though we're late to the party, we'll be better than Toyota when it comes to performance and value, even though we won't subsidize our hybrids like Toyota does, Queen said in an interview. It's interesting to watch Prius. Some areas of the country are starved for the car, and in others the car doesn't resonate. So the true demand for hybrids isn't clear, but we'll be ready with hybrids in a number of vehicles, he said, though refusing to elaborate any further. Last week Toyota said it will double annual Prius shipments to the United States to 100,000 in '05, hinting more demand than GM is willing to admit. Domestic automakers insist the Japanese should be charging hundreds more for their hybrids but are eating costs to gain a market advantage."

yerth10 · January 2005

Even after selling 120,000 units of Prius-I and another 130,000 unit of Prius-II, Toyota

admits that they earn lesser profits on Prius.

Its no wonder as they sell nearly 400,000 units / year of Camry and probably another

400,000 - 500,000 units in Asia, Europe, etc. Compared to that definitely profits will be

lesser for Prius.

The whole objective of this vehicle is to learn from and prove that hybrids are viable.

Prius-I was introduced to see whether the vehicle works fine in

* 4 seasons

* 200,000 miles (320,000 km)

* 6 years

and it has done that.

Prius-II is to see how their HSD with a high voltage motor, improved battery works.

The knowledge gained will be applied in Highlander, RX400h, Sienna and Toyota

will be making big bucks in those vehicles. Besides these, the company which

was ranked 4th in 1999 has jumped to 2nd last year and Prius must have contributed

a lot of positive image for the company.

Prius-III may possibly be a Plugin-hybrid with a 20 mile (32 km) range. It is supposed

to be a front-runner for other vehicles of Toyota and also that of other companies.

Its good that Ford (#3 company) is happily following Toyota's lead. But GM (being #1)

is unwilling and talking negative of hybrids. Toyota is all set to take #1 title and

how long will it take directly depends on Oil Prices.

gagrice · January 2005

But GM (being #1) is unwilling and talking negative of hybrids. Toyota is all set to take #1 title and how long will it take directly depends on Oil Prices.

If Toyota pursues the hybrid as some on this board think they will. It will be a long time before they make number ONE. You cannot go forward if you are not making much money. Hybrids will never be mainstream. They are a niche vehicle. Just like the Honda salesman told me yesterday. He was surprised that the HAH on his lot did not sell over the weekend. It is in the same spot today. Just waiting for a sucker to pay their $3k "dealer markup". Oh and they do not even stock the Insight or HCH it is special order only. They had an HCH few months back and wanted a grand over MSRP. They must have found a sucker.

robertsmx · January 2005

Fact is, however, Toyota is making more money than Ford and GM combined. So, economics isnt an issue. To grow, however, you have to be progressive, and that, at the moment, Toyota is. Sitting and watching isnt going to get there, and GM has just realized that (now that I have read about them revealing a hybrid Malibu for 2007).

larsb · January 2005

quote Gagrice-"Hybrids will never be mainstream. They are a niche vehicle."-end quote

I can't believe, after all you have seen and read, that you can still believe this - any one of you out there.

Have you seen the estimates? 100,000 Priuses to sell in US this year. Honda will sell probably 40,000 to 50,000 hybrids this year. 50 models avail by 2010. GM and DCX working on a hybrid technology. ZAP to have a fuel cell hybrid by the end of 2005. Sales up to 1 million by 2010, or about 6 percent of the market.

"In 20 or 40 years" all the automotive group's cars will be hybrids," the man in charge of Toyota's research and development, design and product development, Kazuo Okatmoto, told the car industry magazine Automotive News Europe.

"The runaway success of a hybrid car that was initially intended to exploit a green niche in the market has caused some industry analysts to wonder if the technology is sparking a revolution in the car industry. Some have even likened it to the biggest thing since the invention of the internal combustion engine."

Good cars from good car makers which get 30-60 miles per gallon and cut pollution will not be "niche" to any buyers who have a lick of sense.

The days of hybrids being considered an "oddity" are over. The next step is to get them considered "mainstream" and only sales figures will do that I guess.

All you Hybrid naysayers will be eating crow in a few years, just watch....

gagrice · January 2005

Have you seen the estimates? 100,000 Priuses to sell in US this year. Honda will sell probably 40,000 to 50,000 hybrids this year. 50 models avail by 2010.

That is all hopeful hype. The facts are that Honda did not do real well with the HCH, just half of the Prius sales. Ford is doing less than they had expected on the Escape hybrid, all those anxious lookers did not turn out to be buyers. One month after the HAH went on the market they are sitting on the car lots waiting for this throng that could not wait to buy. Many Toyota dealers have Prius IIs on their lots ready for a buyer. SUV and truck sales are what make these companies money and they will not sacrifice that market to push hybrid sales.

PS

They are still a techno-geek oddity to most Americans.

larsb · January 2005

That's nothing new, that the HCH is not selling at the clip of the Prius. The Prius is a larger car, not even in the same size class as HCH. The new Prius has outsold the "old" HCH since Day 1.

Escapes are being rolled out slowly, so they are allocated about one per dealer per month. They are selling just fine. I peripherally know two people who have them.

Accord Hybrids are just now getting the marketing push. They will sell out, just like the Escapes will, once the word gets out that they are available.

I'd like to know where you get the "Prius II are sitting on dealer lots" info - nothing I have seen on the web indicates that. And I read Hybrid news every single day.

Of course car companies want to make money. But they also want their new technology to sell well, to recoup their R&D costs. They are not intentionally underselling Hybrids !!

larsb · January 2005

US Hybrid Sales 2004

Model (on market) Units sold

Toyota Prius (12 months) 53,991

Honda Civic Hybrid (12 months) 25,571

Ford Escape Hybrid (3 months) 2,993

Honda Accord Hybrid (1 month) 1,061

Honda Insight (12 months) 583

Total 84,199

So Honda sold 1061 Accord Hybrids in 22 days. That's a good clip, 48 per day.

And this:

"With the addition of the Accord Hybrid, American Honda expects sales of its hybrid models -- Insight, Civic and Accord -- to nearly double to a total of 45,000 units in calendar year 2005."

Escape Hybrid sold about at about 32 per day in 3 months.

And this:

"With Civic Hybrid sales up 17.5 percent to 25,571 for the calendar year and the addition of the all-new Accord Hybrid late in the year, sales of Honda hybrid vehicles rose 18.6 percent to a new record of 27,215 vehicles for the year. December sales of Honda's three hybrid models jumped up 97.2 percent to 3,167 units, bringing total Honda hybrid sales to 74,608 since the introduction of the Insight in December 1999."

That seems to indicate an UPWARD trend of Hybrid sales, not a DOWNWARD trend....

gagrice · January 2005

Escapes are being rolled out slowly, so they are allocated about one per dealer per month. They are selling just fine.

Before the Escape arrived my Ford manager friend had 100 deposits on the Escape. She was in a panic because of the 1 car per dealer per month. I talked to her last week and she told me she could get me one in a week if I wanted it. They are not selling as Ford had anticipated.

The Prius II is selling good for what it is. Hardly a day goes by on this forum that someone does not walk onto or call a Toyota dealer that has one in stock and they make the deal. Other dealers are playing the game of there is a long wait but I can put you into this little beauty today. The Prius for most of the Toyota dealers is a come on to get people in the store.

Honda is NOT selling good period. I only go by the one dealer here in CA. If you cannot get rid of an HAH in San Diego they are not selling well. 8 days on the lot is a long time for a premium car. He is not having any difficulty selling the Odyssey EX & Touring as fast as they hit the lot. Even with his atrocious $3000 dealer markup. The one we sat in was already sold. If you have to order an Insight or HCH that tells me they are not willing to floor them. One year from now we will know a lot more on this subject.

larsb · January 2005

Look at the sales figures on Honda Hybrids.

And Toyota is the number 3 seller in the USA - they don't need to "tease people with a Hybrid come-on" to get people into the store, puh-leeze.

robertsmx · January 2005

Honda targeted annual sales of about 20K Civic Hybrid when it was launched couple of years ago. Given that, almost 26K is exceeding that projection. A similar target has been set for Accord Hybrid, and I believe it will be on its way as well. So, Honda is certainly not targeting massive volume, compared to regular trims (and to top it off, Honda's hybrids are actually trim levels unlike Prius which is an independent model).

Insight will probably continue for a while, simply for marketing reasons, and I suspect, eventually replaced by a more fuel economical low cost hybrid below Civic Hybrid (potentially... Jazz/Fit). We shall see.

Having said that, 40-50K units of Civic/Accord Hybrid may be "niche" number when compared to the models' overall sales numbers, but there are several non-Honda mainstream models in similar price class ($20-30K) that sell almost as many units or less. Remember, Honda sells more units of Accord than total sales of VW as a brand.

Eventually, Honda could offer a cheaper Accord Hybrid, and that should further sales numbers.

larsb · January 2005

Definition of "niche":

A special area of demand for a product or service.

If "having a good car from a good maker that achieves 30-60 miles per gallon and pollutes less than comparable cars" falls into "a special area of demand" then the people who are buying cars not fitting into that demand should take another look at their needs.

I think EVERY car buyer should look FIRST at the Hybrids and see if one meets their needs. If it does, BUY IT "because" it is a Hybrid.

My sister loves my Hybrid, but she has a large family and cannot use anything less than a seven seater. You can bet your butt that if she could find a seven seater Hybrid for around $30K she would buy it.

Some people's needs are not met by the current Hybrid lineup. But many, many people can benefit from this wonderful technology, and they SHOULD.

The first Hybrid minivan is going to be a big seller if done right. Give me an Odyssey that makes 37 MPG on the Hwy and I MYSELF could sell a few thousand of those a year.

gagrice · January 2005

Remember, Honda sells more units of Accord than total sales of VW as a brand.

Funny, in the top 25 World wide companies sales for 2004 I see GM, Ford, DCC, Toyota, VW in that order. Where is Honda? I have not added all the sales. I know that VW sold more cars in China & Europe than any other company. The US is not the best place to sell cars with all the BS involved.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/results.jhtml?passListId=18&passY- ear=2003&passListType=Company&searchParameter1=1Num%7C%7C- NotNull&searchParameter2=&resultsStart=1&resultsHowMa- ny=25&resultsSortProperties=%2Bnumberfield2%2C%2Bstringfield2- &resultsSortCategoryName=sales+rank&passKeyword=&cate- gory1=category&category2=category&fromColumnClick=true

gagrice · January 2005

My sister loves my Hybrid, but she has a large family and cannot use anything less than a seven seater. You can bet your butt that if she could find a seven seater Hybrid for around $30K she would buy it.

Fat chance with Honda, I believe they just made the statement that people that buy minivans and SUVs are not interested in gas savings. She may get a chance with Toyota if she wants to spend $40k plus for a Highlander or $50k plus for a RX400h.

larsb · January 2005

January 07, 2005

Toyota to Manufacture Hybrid Camry in US

AFX. The Daily Yomiuri reports that Toyota Motor Corp plans to produce Camry hybrids in the US.

According to the report, Toyota will export the engine and hybrid systems from Japan to its assembly plant in Kentucky.

Toyota Camry has been the top-selling car in the US for the third straight year, with output of some 420,000 vehicles last year, and this, along with spikes in crude oil prices, helped prompt the world's second-largest automaker to decide producing hybrid vehicles in US, the report said.

As noted here earlier, the Hybrid Camry could be out as soon as the 2006 model year. It will be very interesting to see how Toyota weights efficiency versus performance in its design.

See the entire article at:

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/01/toyota_to_manuf.html

falconone · January 2005

I've also heard that Lexus plans to introduce a luxury hybrid sedan to market (their GS series). I can't wait for that one! Regardless of what some people think on this forum, hybrids are NOT niche vehicles. GM has been caught with their panties down and is scrambling to compete with Toyota to introduce a hybrid. This, AFTER they claimed there was no market for one! LOL!!!

dewey · January 2005

http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000597026670/

How about some excitement from GM for a change. An Opel hybrid-diesel! This car may re-define the competition in N. America(assuming GM would have the sense to introduce it here as a Saturn?---that in itself is a big question)

I myself never consider myself a GM buyer until I saw this interesting hybrid! Bring on the competition!

robertsmx · January 2005

Now you've to go to the worldwide market place to make your point? I assumed you had issues with overall sales volume of Honda's hybrids in the USA (thats where the numbers came from, after all). Let us stick to the point that starts a discussion.

electrictroy · January 2005

"The facts are that Honda did not do real well with the HCH, just half of the Prius sales."

.

Nonsense. Honda sold every Civic Hybrid they made. They simply choose to limit quantities to half Toyota's level.

troy

gagrice · January 2005

Nonsense. Honda sold every Civic Hybrid they made. They simply choose to limit quantities to half Toyota's level.

I am curious why you think that or why Honda would do that. They don't need the hybrids to get their CAFE standards as Toyota does. Maybe they are losing money on every hybrid and that is not a Honda trait. If that is the case what makes you think it will be any different with the HAH? I know 6 months ago my local Honda dealer had an HCH on the lot for sale, now they are by special order only. They have that HAH that has been there over a week. The salesman told me they had the first 7 HAH cars pre-sold. Maybe they have reached their niche market for San Diego. I have to believe they were lucky to find 7 suckers to pay $3000 over the already premium price of the HAH.

robertsmx · January 2005

HCH (or HAH) arent unique when it comes to limiting production. I dont think you noticed my mention of hybrid being a trim level for these two cars. Do you think Honda makes 300K units of Accord EXV6 or Civic EX for the US market? Or do you think that they limit production of these models based on estimate?

And it isnt necessarily true at trim level either, sometimes the whole lineup is affected. Initial sales projection is set and vehicles produced accordingly. It is true regardless of car being hybrid or not, so I dont see a point in you making a hoopla about it. Specifically, look at Odyssey or TSX. They arent hybrids, or are they?

Think JIT (Just In Time), and you get the point. It is one of the more efficient ways of doing business.

electrictroy · January 2005

I don't think it's "losing money". Honda's Insight costs >$30,000 to build (expensive aluminum/magnesium body), but Honda keeps making it from 2000-2006 despite that fact. I think both Honda/Toyota are making money on their conventional steel-bodied Civics/Priuses.

And yet, BOTH honda and toyota are limiting production of hybrids. They could easily sell half a million each of civic & prius hybrids. They both have waiting lists to sell these cars, but they choose to *limit annual production* to 25,000 and 50,000 respectively.

Why? I don't know. One theory is lack of NiMH batteries, but you'll have to ask Honda/Toyota to get the real reason.

.

Bottom Line = Civic Hybrid is NOT underselling Prius. Every Civic made is sold near-instantly. The manufacturers are merely limiting production.

troy

gagrice · January 2005

Bottom Line = Civic Hybrid is NOT underselling Prius. Every Civic made is sold near-instantly. The manufacturers are merely limiting production.

I don't think so. When I asked to see the Civic Hybrid the other day the salesman told me they only do special order on them. That tells me they don't sell sitting on the lot. I understand there is a glut of Insights if you want the CVT and a waiting list if you want the much better mileage manual transmission. People that buy the Insight want to squeeze every mile they can from that car. They could care less that the CVT model is cleaner burning. They want that 10 mpg more on the highway...

The Prius outsells the others because it is different and is the de facto "greenie" car.

robertsmx · January 2005

Prius sells because it is its own model, and Toyota is more aggressive in marketing it, than is Honda with its hybrids (at the moment).

Hybrids are still about taking baby steps, IMO. Future is where the success is. There is plenty to be developed, including addressing the common perceptions.

electrictroy · January 2005

"When I asked to see the Civic Hybrid the other day the salesman told me they only do special order on them."

.

So? The same is true for Prius. There are more buyers than cars, because Both Honda & Toyota are limiting production to <50,000 a year. troy

gagrice · January 2005

So? The same is true for Prius. There are more buyers than cars, because Both Honda & Toyota are limiting production to <50,000 a year.

There is a big difference between special order and a waiting list. Toyota dealers have an open order for any Prius they can get. When one comes in it is sold to someone on the list or the first guy in the door with the money. Special order means they are not going to take a chance, flooring a car that does not sell. So if you want one pay up front and we will put it on order.

gagrice · January 2005

Just looking over the sales figures of 2004 vs 2003. It was a good year for the SUV & PU Truck market. Ford, Chevy & Dodge all sold more PU trucks than the best selling Sedan, Camry.

Overall the sedan market took a beating. They sold about 202k less cars than 2003. Ford PU trucks had the biggest year with 94k more than 2003. SUVs gained over 150k from 2003.

All the hype about high gas prices killing the SUV and PU truck market never materialized.

The Prius did good ending the year close to 54k units in a virtual tie with the VW Passat. They both suffered from availability problems. The dealers could not keep enough diesel Passats on the lots and sold them at or above MSRP same as Prius. Passat was able to sell that many cars without two of the largest states.

http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/homesuv.asp

electrictroy · January 2005

There are more buyers than cars, because Both Honda & Toyota are limiting production to <50,000 a year. Says are not "poor". It's a self-imposed limitation.

troy

yerth10 · January 2005

Gagrice wrote

Hybrids made little impact on the car market

In 2003 nearly 60,000 hybrid vehicles were sold,

In 2004 its 120,000. Thats nearly double.

Its just 7 years since HEV's are on the World stage. In the coming years, it will gain bigger and bigger share as more models join in.

Also Read the article again

http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp

The SUV's which has truck chassis took a severe

beating. They are

Explorer (-33 k)

Grand Cherokee (-25 k)

Expedition (-21 k)

Blazer (-20 k)

Outlander (-16 k)

Suburban (-15 k)

Montero Sport (-13 k)

Tahoe (-13 k)

while the CUV' which has car chassis gained a lot

Highlander (+13 k)

RX 300 (+14 k)

Escape/Hybrid (+15 k)

Rainier (+19 k)

Pacifica (+35 k)

though a few SUV' also gained.

The gains in pickup sales may be because of lot of

companies must have bought these vehicles.

Gas prices did make an impact.

Its good that Sedan sales were reduced by 202k.

My Olds Sedan which is 16 ft in length could not

take a 25 inch TV box which is hardly 4 ft in length.

Smaller vehicles like Matrix, Vibe which has 5th door can do the job.

gagrice · January 2005

Smaller vehicles like Matrix, Vibe which has 5th door can do the job.

You forgot the best of the bunch the Malibu Maxx.

Who builds the Vibe & Matrix? They look like the same little piece o' tin. Same engine, ratings etc...

yerth10 · January 2005

Yes.

Malibu Maxx is a wonderful vehicle where the rear seat

reclines

slides

and folds flat

allowing big item to roll in through the hatch door.

Unfortunately only 50,000 units were sold last year. Hope more and more vehicles follow such design which gives comfort & utility.

Sylvia · January 2005

posted with permission until link to exact article is available

Ray Bradbury Talks Transportation's Future in Green Car Journal

SAN LUIS OBISPO, Calif., Jan. 12 /PRNewswire/ -- According to Ray Bradbury, one of the world's leading science fiction writers and author of such classics as "The Martian Chronicles" and "Fahrenheit 451," traffic on our nation's major highways will freeze with gridlock, and only then will people decide to change their driving habits.

"We're going to be forced into new solutions just as we were forced into space," says Bradbury in an exclusive Green Car Journal interview. Bradbury reminds us that unusual circumstances made for an acceptance of space travel, with America's race for space driven not by the general population's desire to go to the moon, but rather by a reaction to political events during the Cold War.

Similarly, Bradbury expects that a complete rethinking of our transportation system will be driven by reaction to events over the next five to seven years, not by a desire for change. In the interview, Bradbury says that, simply, "we're going to be forced to look at the automobile and freeways because they're not working."

Bradbury isn't alone in pointing out the need for change. In Green Car Journal's Winter 2004/2005 issue, Amory Lovins, noted physicist and CEO of Rocky Mountain Institute, discusses how the application of advanced automotive technologies can create highly efficient vehicles that help resolve America's dependence on foreign oil.

Lovins supports his perspective with a look at specific examples of advanced automotive design and manufacturing work at BMW, Honda, Porsche, and Toyota, along with an RMI Hypercar project that examines a virtually designed, production costed, and manufacturable crossover vehicle that uses these, and other, technologies. The RMI team's new Pentagon co-sponsored study, "Winning the Oil Endgame" (www.oilendgame.com), documents these advances.

"It shows how to save half of U.S. oil use at $12/barrel, and then replace the rest with biofuels and saved natural gas," says Lovins in the article. "That would eliminate U.S. oil use by 2050 -- without needing federal legislation, CAFE, or gasoline taxes, but led by business for profit."

Other voices in the issue include that of World Resources Institute president Jonathan Lash, who explains why it's crucial that domestic automakers build more fuel efficient vehicles to effectively compete in emerging world markets. Also adding a voice to the issue is Bluewater Network's Elisa Lynch, who focuses on the need for revamping EPA's fuel economy testing so official mpg estimates provide new car buyers a realistic basis for comparison.

With its focus on automobiles, energy diversity, and environment, Green Car Journal truly is the auto enthusiast magazine of today. Since its launch in 2003, the consumer magazine has become a popular read not only for auto enthusiast subscribers and newsstand buyers, but also for environmentalists, opinion leaders, political leaders, and the nation's top media.

"In fact, we've been told by writers and producers from high profile print and broadcast media that our magazine issues are referenced as they prepare their own features," says Green Car Journal editor and publisher Ron Cogan, a former Motor Trend feature editor. "With the considerable noise and confusion floating out there on high efficiency, alternative fuel, and advanced technology vehicles, we're pleased to play that role and gratified that our balanced coverage is so highly regarded."

Green Car Journal was recently honored with nine International Automotive Media Awards, including gold Foundation Awards for Best News, Introduction of New Models, and Interview, and a silver for Best Single Magazine Issue. The magazine focuses on low emission and high fuel economy gasoline and diesel vehicles; hybrid, battery electric, and fuel cell technologies; and hydrogen, ethanol, biodiesel, natural gas, LPG, and low sulfur fuels.

Among the colorful features in the current issue are test drives of the Chevrolet Silverado Hybrid and Jeep Liberty diesel, a look at Volvo's 3CC electric car concept and BMW's hydrogen H2R, and an overview of the Top 20 green pickups.

The magazine's popular companion website, Green Car Journal Online (www.greencar.com), offers selected features from the print edition and syndicated content via RSS feed. Viewers can subscribe to the print Green Car Journal magazine through the website.

larsb · January 2005

GM and DCX working on two mode system, but is it that great? Read this:

"That's an equation DaimlerChrysler found impossible to ignore, which is why last month it signed an agreement with General Motors to develop hybrid systems for its range of brands, which include Mercedes-Benz and Chrysler.

"It is both companies' (GM and DaimlerChrysler) goal to build the two-mode full hybrid system as one of the leading hybrid systems globally in the industry," says GM's Tom Stephens.

Mr Stephens claims the addition of the so-called two-mode hybrid system will provide some of the most significant fuel economy gains for cars ever.

"This system will . . . achieve at least a 25 per cent improvement in composite fuel economy in full-size truck applications," he says."

Full article here:

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2005/01/19/1106110796891.html?o- neclick=true

Big whoop if an 18 MPG SUV gets bumped up to 22.5 MPG. Who's gonna pay extra to get that tiny bump?

I know if there are 2 million of them sold that it will reduce gas consumption by a lot, but that small a jump is not going to set the world on fire, is it?

The Future of Hybrid Technology

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles