Good idea. After driving in town a few times, I have the "feel" of the correct speed and try not to exceed the speed limit...even with impatient "jerks" behind me who are tailgating.
Odyssey vs Sienna: The Odyssey is the most attractive to me, has more comfortable 2nd row seating (front and rear equally comfortable), has separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger in a lower priced model. However, the Sienna has the complete overhead console with outside temperature, compass, and trip computer.
Since neither the Odyssey nor Sienna have both the complete overhead console and separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger that are on my low end T&C LX in a reasonably priced model, I continue to drive my 2002 T&C LX even though the driver's seat in it is not as comfortable for me as either the Odyssey or Sienna.
Yeah, I would pick an Ody Touring w/Nav over a Sienna Limited w/NAV.
Quieter interior and better high-tech gadgets.
Sound levels may be subjective, like most things, but I think the measured levels usually tell us the trends. When you have two quiet vans, it's hard to say which is quieter. But with these measurements, at least we can objectively say, the Ody is quieter according to Consumer Automotive Research, Inc.
Odyssey is more attractive than the Sienna, has separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger in EX (MSRP $28,510), and the most comfortable 2nd row seating...but lacks the complete overhead console with outside temp, compass, and trip computer.
The Sienna LE(MSRP $25,295)has the complete overhead console but NO separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger. To get this feature, one must get an XLE (MSRP $29,590)...but it is NOT available without option A @ $2575 for a total MSRP $32,165.
Since I would like both the complete overhead console and separately controlled temperature, the Sienna is the only one of the 2 that has both...but at an extra cost of about $4,000 MORE than a new minivan of another brand.
The separately controlled temperature for the driver and front passenger is much more important to me than the complete overhead console which makes the Odyssey the minivan of choice.
Note to Steve: Would you delete posting #1683 which appears to be objectionable to some?
I currently drive a 2002 Highlander AWD which I love. But now we have 2 kids and 2 dogs with trips to the cottage and alas we don't have enough space.
Originally I wanted the Sienna LE AWD but the run flat tires have been a nightmare. Two friends of mine each have this vehicle and their tires are wearing out after less than a year. That coupled with scarce availability of this tire,limited expertise in installing them and the high ticket price has definitely scared me away from this model.
So now it's definitely down to Odyssey and Sienna. I test drove both and this is what I found:
The Odyssey handled really well and the traction was excellent. Unfortunately I found the driver leather seat to be too hard for me (even after adjusting the lumbar support) and my back was quite sore after the drive. It would probably help if the odyssey had the telescopic steering wheel.
The Sienna XLE was a very easy transition from the Highlander. The leather seats were very comfortable and the telescopic steering wheel was great.
So the real decision is between the Odyssey EX (hopefully more comfortable seat) and the Sienna XLS. The price difference is considerable but in Canada to get all the safety features (traction control, stability assist and all air bags) you have to go with the XLS Sienna.
My Toyota dealership is amazing and I have to say I lean towards the Sienna for that reason.
If anyone could give me some insight on Odyssey EX vs. Sienna XLS I would really appreciate it.
Thank you for that info. I have to put all three in the second row, so it sounds like the Honda is out. That leaves the Sienna (I guess the only minivan in the world that lets you put 3 kids in the second row- seems very strange), and a monster truck. My wife likes the Expedition, I like the Sienna. I am going to keep reading and drive both, thanks for your help. David
True, the 2nd row middle seat of the Sienna is larger than the + 1 seat of the Odyssey EX BUT at the expense of having armrests for the other seats of the 2nd row.
A good example of utility vs comfort. Sienna has utility but Odyssey has comfort.
After months of reading these forums this is my first message. Need a new van and have narrowed it down to Honda or Toyota. I wanted either the Honda EX-L or the Toyota XLE because both have all the air bags, leather seating and moonroof. Test drove and priced both this past weekend. The Toyota has MSRP of over $44,000CAD and we'd be looking at about $50,000CAD OTD. My husband flipped and said no way and I agree- way too expense. But to get all the air bags have to get the XLE. The Honda EX-L has an MSRP of about $7,000 less so is clearly a better buy for us. BUT now my hubby is very uncertain about VCM and would rather we go to the EX model that has "regular proven engine" (his words).
As well, hubby is against leather because of four kids and dog.
So I would like advice - Should we go to EX to avoid VCM?
Can I order an EX with a moonroof as an option?
Can I order EX with leather for just the two front seats and have cloth for 2nd and 3rd rows? And if this can be done would it look ok?
Any advice would be great because hubby wants to order ASAP.
"As well, hubby is against leather because of four kids and dog."
I can understand the "dog" part because you're afraid it would scratch leather, but "kids"???! Leather is without a doubt the best thing for kids because it's easily cleaned and does not absorb smells and food and dirt.
"So I would like advice - Should we go to EX to avoid VCM?"
There's nothing "unproven" about the VCM technology; it's just a piece of software!
"Can I order EX with leather for just the two front seats and have cloth for 2nd and 3rd rows?"
Wrong! Sienna has utility and comfort, it all depends on what you are looking for. Armrests are available on the 7-Seat Siennas and the XLE Limited(Extreme Comfort) which is comparable to Honda Odyssey EX-L for Utility because Honda's +1 seat is a joke(No Seat at all)!
Depending on where you live, you can get a Sienna for invoice plus. As for the VCM in the Oddy EX-L, I would be vary wary of it. It has an abyssmal reliability history since GM Patented it in the late 70's and the took it off the market in the early 80's due to lawsuits. Cylinder deactivation (trade names/licensed/VCM, DOD, and Mufti-displacement) only re surfaced two years ago as gas prices started to spike, but it really is useless if you do a lot of City Driving, afterall I'm sure you wouldn't want to do stop-N-go with 4700 lbs on 3 cylinders. That's why concept wise it is doomed to failure for city driving but it only gives you a ROI of +2 MPG more on the highway with questionable reliability.
So far as I am aware, you are right. Out of curiosity, I had called Honda to inqure about installing the TPMS in an EX. They are supposed to call me back. (I assume you are responding to a post--apparently deleted--regarding the possibility of putting Touring wheels on an EX.)
Where I am I couldn't get a Sienna for anywhere near invoice, plus they all swore that certain options packages were unavailable. (AWD XLE + Nav & RES)
The +1 is a joke for installing a car seat into, but it certainly fits my fat chassis when sitting between twins in the 2nd row.
Cylinder deactivation is generally programmed to not stick you with 3 cylinders (or 4, depending on the make of car you're talking about) when you're trying to pull out of a red light. Even GM is using it again, so I'm not sure if they're all that worried the lawsuits will return.
Yes, I know GM is using it, check the vette. Only problem is they are not calling it's old trade name V8-6-4 or V8-4, but Mufti-displacement. It's basically because of the negative connotation(26 State Class Action Lawsuit and the Lawsuit trail) associated with the name V8-6-4. A good example of this is Value-Jet, now called voila Air Tran! There is also the problems associated with the whole concept of cylinder deactivation basically causing the engine to self destruct which no program(Electronic Controls) can negate unless complicated counterbalances are introduced. GM has never been synonymous with reliability in any of their designs and since it's value is only on the Highways, a city slicker like me would find it useless in city driving.
The Cadillac 4-6-8 engine was an ill conceived mistake for GM. It was used for ONE YEAR ONLY in 1981. It was very primitive by today's standards and works nothing like Honda's well tested and modern system.
I don't remember lawsuits having anything to do with the demise of the 4-6-8 engine. I just remember the electronics didn't work well. Most shops clipped a wire and these were back to normal operation. Back then, the auto makers were really struggling to meet newly imposed emission and fuel economy mandates.
Of course, my memory is probably a bit foggy since that was 24 years ago.
This advanced system is hardly "doomed to failure" but if someone is THAT frightened of it, the should probably not buy one.
i don't know if my post was deleted, but i was merely stating my belief, based on the information on PAX on the michelin website, that tire pressure monitoring is a system comprising the transmitters in the tires, and a receiver system on the car...it is not the same as the Sienna system which determines pressure anomolies using the rate of angular spinning (rotational velocity) of the wheels via the ABS wheel speed sensors.
so, (from what I read), you can't for example take PAX tires and put them on someone else's van which wasn't designed with PAX in mind, and expect the TPMS system to be operational.
also, i could be very wrong about this, but i thought i read another post which alluded to the suspension in the ODY touring model being designed specifically for PAX.
**So the real decision is between the Odyssey EX (hopefully more comfortable seat) and the Sienna XLS. The price difference is considerable but in Canada to get all the safety features (traction control, stability assist and all air bags) you have to go with the XLS Sienna. **
I'd like to consider the Sienna also but I think them making us move to the XLS for stuff like auto climate control, traction control and so on is just crazy - given the price difference. For this reason I'll be going with the Ody.
Thanks for the comment. I will not definitely get leather since I have two beagles. (Beagles only shed once a eyar - they start on Jan 1 and quit on Dec 31. BTW Mine are not actual beagles - they are gophers cleaverly disguished as beagles. Even fooled the vet, but look at the holes in by back yard!) Leather is it.
After months and months of looking at minivans, I finally put a deposit down last night on a new Odyssey EX-L in Ocean Mist.
My wife and I come from a Toyota family and I've been pretty much sold on the Sienna since my wife decided her next vehicle would be a minivan. We had each driven the Sienna a couple of times and really liked the vehicle. We had also driven an '04 Ody last year (just to be 'fair' and 'open minded') but my wife really didn't care for the ride or noise levels. All the excitement over the new Ody I wrote off to rabid Honda fans just messing themselves over the thought of a new van. Some of the posts by the more rabid Honda fans (and salesmen....but not you, isell) just really set my teeth on edge. But, after taking a hard look at the Ody at a recent car show, my wife and I sat down and itemized the pros and cons of each vehicle.
We came to the inexcapable conclusion that NOBODY makes the perfect minivan; they each had items we really wanted but the other didn't offer. When comparing a base EX-L to a comparable Sienna XLE, the Sienna was several thousand more on MSRP, but we also knew that (supposedly) the Toyota dealers would be more willing to make a swinging deal. After a fairly short time, I was able to get my Toyota dealer down to around $31.1k, which put our favorite at around the same as the MSRP on a new Ody EX-L ($30.8k). I'm sure that after more arm twisting (or maybe locating a vehicle without all the JUNK that Gulf States Toyota ladles on the vehicles), I could have gone a bit lower.
And then, just to be fair, we drove a new Ody. My wife liked it just as much as the Sienna and we really appreciated two BIG advantages (to us anyway) of the Ody over the Sienna; occasional 8-passenger capacity while retaining really nice captain's chairs for the 95% of the time when the +1 seat is unoccupied, AND the infloor storage. (and I also liked correcting the Honda salesman at least 4 times on assertions he was making about the Sienna).
We then check the websites for dealers around the state (I love the internet), located several dealers with our prefered color in stock, and started making deals. We very quickly (and painlessly) worked a deal for $28.6k + TTL (McDavid Honda of Houston), more than $2.6k less, after taxes, than the Sienna with (in our eyes) more valuable assets.
Just don't expect me to become some wild-eyed raving Honda....ah....'fan'.
rorr, congrats on your purchase. We bought a 2005 Ody last week and enjoy it. But during our search that began in September, we at various times favored the Sienna, Town & Country and Ody.
"We came to the inexcapable conclusion that NOBODY makes the perfect minivan; they each had items we really wanted but the other didn't offer."
Isn't that the truth. If each of these van manufacturers just added four features, then we would have several perfect vans. But they seem to almost enjoy leaving stuff out to irk us!
Let's not get carried away. They are BOTH good vans. What may be the 'best' for me, or the 'best' for you, is entirely subjective. I will state, categorically, the Odyssey is NOT the 'best' for everyone. Don't expect me to become some Honda lemming chanting 'vtec....vtec....vtec' and wearing red vestements to bed.
Honestly, it was posts like these which actually KEPT me from looking at the Honda for quite some time. It's just a car, not a religion.
"As for the VCM in the Oddy EX-L, I would be vary wary of it. It has an abyssmal reliability history since GM Patented it in the late 70's and the took it off the market in the early 80's due to lawsuits. Cylinder deactivation (trade names/licensed/VCM, DOD, and Mufti-displacement) only re surfaced two years ago as gas prices started to spike, but it really is useless if you do a lot of City Driving, afterall I'm sure you wouldn't want to do stop-N-go with 4700 lbs on 3 cylinders. That's why concept wise it is doomed to failure for city driving but it only gives you a ROI of +2 MPG more on the highway with questionable reliability."
Questioning reliability of Honda's VCM based on reliability of similar GM system is LUDICROUS! GM hasn't made a reliable car yet so you can't expect any system it produces to be reliable.
Thanks. Your discussion was helpful. I've been resigned to a minivan (happily since my wife is pregnant with twins). Been checking things out on the web: Down to the Sienna or ODY (curently I drive a 98 accord so i'm partial to honda) Sienna with AWD vs the new ODY. Both have top safety rating. Will probably go with the ODY but still like the Sienna with AWD for NE weather. Any one with experience driving the new ODY in snow/ice?
I have to agree with dulnev. VCM is run by a computer. Would you refuse to buy a computer in 2005 because DOS 1.0 sucked so bad? Computers have come a long way since the 1970's. GM has come a long way too, but it was never even close to being as reliable as Honda.
toy4me1, the Sienna might be the best minivan for you, but it's not because of VCM.
VCM is run by an ECU. It isn't as simplistic as dulnev makes it out to be. Like I said before the vibrations and mechanical imbalances created by Cylinder deactivation have to be offset by other complex mechanisms otherwise over time it will lead to premature failure. Unfortunately, in the real world of engineering, creating a program in the virtual world will NOT translate to defying the basic laws of physics as some simpletons will have you believe. If you believe it is that simple to solve physics problems by writing a program, the United States would never made it to the moon in reality. Look anybody can go to MARS Virtually without having to deal with physics!!
<"toy4me1, the Sienna might be the best minivan for you, but it's not because of VCM.">
You're are so-o right, the ODDLY is out on 3 Strikes:
Isn't that the point, though? VCM is *not* just a software tweak. There are mechanical devices (active motor mounts, etc) in place to cope with the mechanical vibrations of the motor.
The vibrations caused by deactivating 3 known cylinders across a known RPM band aren't that incredibly complex. On top of that the technology of vibration isolation and damping has improved greatly over the past 15 years. (worked on it on an aerospace project w/ vibration isolation in the early 90's, you should see the ugly devices they had back then!)
I drive in the city and I see the little "eco" light come on all the time, so I don't think you have to be a freeway hauler to get any benefits from it.
Granted, if you gridlocked in Manhattan 99% of the time, that might become an issue. But then the "Evil VCM" is never coming on, so whaddya worried about breaking down?
Odyssey getting pretty amazing mileage. Personally do not worry about VCM, it's giving me instant reward, better mileage and range.
Lots of potential problems in any modern car which is why they give us a good warranty.
If one wants to put down the Odyssey or Sienna, the list can go on forever, how the Ody doesn't have xenons, how the Sienna only got 4 stars out of 5 in a crash test, vs. Odyssey's 5/5, etc.
After months of research and soul searching for a new vehicle, I have narrowed my choice to the Honda Odyssey or Toyota Sienna, both fine vehicles. However, with only a wife and a ten year old son, logic dictates that I really don’t need such a large vehicle. I have looked at the Honda Pilot ( worse gas mileage, AWD which I don’t need in Florida, probably not as nice of a ride as the two van choices) and the Toyota Highlander, a little on the small side but it does get better gas mileage. However, my conclusion is that for a little more money, I can purchase a van that offers more room, a nicer ride, and improved safety. I plan on keeping the new vehicle for the next 8-10 years.
MY wife currently drives a 2002 Honda Accord driving about 10K miles a year. It’s a great car, gets almost 30 MPG on the open highway, but offers little extra room with luggage beyond the three of us. I currently drive a 1994 Dodge Caravan, gas mileage around 20 MPG overall, and use it mainly to drive to and from work (200 miles per week). But the nice feature is the extra space is there when I need it. I went to the Florida Keys 8 weeks ago and able to place my bike, a 10’ kayak, and all of my camping supplies inside the van. The last two weekends, we placed our 16’ canoe on the top along with the 10’ kayak, my son and wife inside while we traveled to the local rivers. Of course, there are other times where I can pick up 12 bags of mulch or put 10’ pieces of lumber inside the van. With a smaller vehicle such as the Highlander; yes, I would be getter a nicer ride, but for these occasional times, my ability to haul this extra stuff would be limited. This brings us back to the Odyssey or the Sienna.
I have found that our insurance company will insure the Sienna annually for $260 LESS than the Odyssey. However, since the Sienna seems to require at least 89, if not 91 octane, this extra savings will be cut in half based on my 12K driving annually.
In the end, at age 49, I now have the means and the wish to own something nicer than the average, and usually, older cars I have always driven. Does anyone have any comments on my decision? With about a $30K budget, are there other cars that may meet my need that my research has missed? Your comments would be very much appreciated.
Edmunds says the Sienna uses regular unleaded fuel, and if I owned one, that's what I'd run it it. (link)
Minivans are way better for canoeing and running shuttle than most SUVS, although the lower ground clearance is an issue sometimes. The lower height makes it a bit easier to get the boats on and off the roof rack (although I did drop a boat on my mirror once horsing it off the racks and busted the mirror housing good).
I don't know about alternatives to minivans, but your budget is same as ours when we went shopping a few months ago. We narrowed online research to Sienna, T&C and Ody, and then went and test-drove them all. We found that the Toyota dealers would barely budge on price, and the optional packages were confusing and mix-match. The Chrysler dealers offered a very good price, and since you have a 10-year-old, the two rows of stow-and-go seats might be more helpful to you for hauling stuff (we have two kids under 4, so car seats get in the way of that). But there is resale value to consider. We found the Ody was a good mix ... resale and quality and a better price than Toyota (tho not quite as good as the T&C). Plus, and this may be important for you based on your comments, the Ody is more fun to drive (sportier, firmer ride, etc.). We found the T&C and Sienna to be more "floaty" and disconnected from the road. Before an outcry begins, all three are good vans for different reasons. Good luck.
"You're are so-o right, the ODDLY is out on 3 Strikes:
1. It has VCM
2. It's not a Toyota
3. It's not a true family 8 seater!"
Salsa - please check out the new cars that have VCM. If I am not wrong, even the dodge have it on their hemi. Engine technology definitely have matured to a point where it can evolve and have additional benefits such as reducing consumption. Honda being a decent engine company is a good place to start. As for the 8 seater comment, neither the toyota sienna nor the honda odyssey are "true" 8 seaters. Honda does it by retaining the captain's chairs and building a smaller middle seat. Toyota did it by reducing the captain chair sizes. And for your info, the december sales figures are down 13% for the Sienna since the introduction of the Odyssey. '05 Sienna's frontal crash rating has been reduced to 4 stars for the driver compared to the '04 Sienna.
"Will probably go with the ODY but still like the Sienna with AWD for NE weather. Any one with experience driving the new ODY in snow/ice?"
The AWD Sienna looks like a good buy but I've written it off because of the lack of leather in the LE and the lack of a spare. Plus kind of not very much choice in picking snow tires if you have to do run flat.
I was willing to give up the other extras the EXL comes with over the LE for the AWD though but these two things make it a non starter for me.
Let's not get carried away, shall we? I bought the Odyssey Touring three weeks ago and so far we're getting pretty crappy mileage. Yes, VCM gets the mileage higher, but you have to drive under 65 mph for it to work often enough! I drive an average 75 mph and ECO pretty much never comes on at this speed!
After lot self-debate and test drive between the Honda and Toyota, I finnally took the delivery of a 2005 Toyota Siena LE Package #2. That about I can afforth for a van. My question to all is shouls I buy the extend warranty ?. I am sure some of you have think about this when you sat at the dealer office. I own a 97 Camry V6.The power train is good, nothing broke by normal usage other than what I broke. The only problem is minor things like light bulbes went out at some hard to replace location, and mostly tire wear out. It's at 98K now and still running good. plan to keep it until Toyota come out with a hybrid Camry, which hopefully 2007. When I brought this Camry I plant to keep it for 10 years. The same goes for the van . I plan to keep it 10 years. I am driving about 17K to 20K a year. I am not sure should I brought extend warranty or not. Perhap someone could enlighten me with their experiences or rational/reason for and against. Thanks.
My reason for is to save me from getting slamd if the trans or the engine got wacked in about 4 years down the road. (the Dodge caravan did.)
My reason against is: it's a Toyota !, the body will fall off and the drive train still run fine, don't wast the money.
Comments
Odyssey vs Sienna: The Odyssey is the most attractive to me, has more comfortable 2nd row seating (front and rear equally comfortable), has separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger in a lower priced model. However, the Sienna has the complete overhead console with outside temperature, compass, and trip computer.
Since neither the Odyssey nor Sienna have both the complete overhead console and separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger that are on my low end T&C LX in a reasonably priced model, I continue to drive my 2002 T&C LX even though the driver's seat in it is not as comfortable for me as either the Odyssey or Sienna.
Quieter interior and better high-tech gadgets.
Sound levels may be subjective, like most things, but I think the measured levels usually tell us the trends. When you have two quiet vans, it's hard to say which is quieter. But with these measurements, at least we can objectively say, the Ody is quieter according to Consumer Automotive Research, Inc.
Like the Honda Odyssey vs Dodge/Chrysler minivans one.
Steve, Host
The Sienna LE(MSRP $25,295)has the complete overhead console but NO separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger. To get this feature, one must get an XLE (MSRP $29,590)...but it is NOT available without option A @ $2575 for a total MSRP $32,165.
Since I would like both the complete overhead console and separately controlled temperature, the Sienna is the only one of the 2 that has both...but at an extra cost of about $4,000 MORE than a new minivan of another brand.
The separately controlled temperature for the driver and front passenger is much more important to me than the complete overhead console which makes the Odyssey the minivan of choice.
Note to Steve: Would you delete posting #1683 which appears to be objectionable to some?
Originally I wanted the Sienna LE AWD but the run flat tires have been a nightmare. Two friends of mine each have this vehicle and their tires are wearing out after less than a year. That coupled with scarce availability of this tire,limited expertise in installing them and the high ticket price has definitely scared me away from this model.
So now it's definitely down to Odyssey and Sienna. I test drove both and this is what I found:
The Odyssey handled really well and the traction was excellent. Unfortunately I found the driver leather seat to be too hard for me (even after adjusting the lumbar support) and my back was quite sore after the drive. It would probably help if the odyssey had the telescopic steering wheel.
The Sienna XLE was a very easy transition from the Highlander. The leather seats were very comfortable and the telescopic steering wheel was great.
So the real decision is between the Odyssey EX (hopefully more comfortable seat) and the Sienna XLS. The price difference is considerable but in Canada to get all the safety features (traction control, stability assist and all air bags) you have to go with the XLS Sienna.
My Toyota dealership is amazing and I have to say I lean towards the Sienna for that reason.
If anyone could give me some insight on Odyssey EX vs. Sienna XLS I would really appreciate it.
Thanks
A good example of utility vs comfort. Sienna has utility but Odyssey has comfort.
maybe I'm mistaken, but if the vehicle isn't equipted, the information transmitted by the tires isn't displayable anywhere.
As well, hubby is against leather because of four kids and dog.
So I would like advice - Should we go to EX to avoid VCM?
Can I order an EX with a moonroof as an option?
Can I order EX with leather for just the two front seats and have cloth for 2nd and 3rd rows? And if this can be done would it look ok?
Any advice would be great because hubby wants to order ASAP.
Thanks, Anne
And, no, you can't order leather in the front and cloth in the back.
Your husband's fears are unjustified. The VCM has been well tested.
I can understand the "dog" part because you're afraid it would scratch leather, but "kids"???! Leather is without a doubt the best thing for kids because it's easily cleaned and does not absorb smells and food and dirt.
"So I would like advice - Should we go to EX to avoid VCM?"
There's nothing "unproven" about the VCM technology; it's just a piece of software!
"Can I order EX with leather for just the two front seats and have cloth for 2nd and 3rd rows?"
No.
"And if this can be done would it look ok?"
You would never be able to sell such a van later.
Wrong! Sienna has utility and comfort, it all depends on what you are looking for. Armrests are available on the 7-Seat Siennas and the XLE Limited(Extreme Comfort) which is comparable to Honda Odyssey EX-L for Utility because Honda's +1 seat is a joke(No Seat at all)!
Depending on where you live, you can get a Sienna for invoice plus. As for the VCM in the Oddy EX-L, I would be vary wary of it. It has an abyssmal reliability history since GM Patented it in the late 70's and the took it off the market in the early 80's due to lawsuits. Cylinder deactivation (trade names/licensed/VCM, DOD, and Mufti-displacement) only re surfaced two years ago as gas prices started to spike, but it really is useless if you do a lot of City Driving, afterall I'm sure you wouldn't want to do stop-N-go with 4700 lbs on 3 cylinders. That's why concept wise it is doomed to failure for city driving but it only gives you a ROI of +2 MPG more on the highway with questionable reliability.
The +1 is a joke for installing a car seat into, but it certainly fits my fat chassis when sitting between twins in the 2nd row.
Cylinder deactivation is generally programmed to not stick you with 3 cylinders (or 4, depending on the make of car you're talking about) when you're trying to pull out of a red light.
--> Andy
Yes, I know GM is using it, check the vette. Only problem is they are not calling it's old trade name V8-6-4 or V8-4, but Mufti-displacement. It's basically because of the negative connotation(26 State Class Action Lawsuit and the Lawsuit trail) associated with the name V8-6-4. A good example of this is Value-Jet, now called voila Air Tran! There is also the problems associated with the whole concept of cylinder deactivation basically causing the engine to self destruct which no program(Electronic Controls) can negate unless complicated counterbalances are introduced. GM has never been synonymous with reliability in any of their designs and since it's value is only on the Highways, a city slicker like me would find it useless in city driving.
The Cadillac 4-6-8 engine was an ill conceived mistake for GM. It was used for ONE YEAR ONLY in 1981. It was very primitive by today's standards and works nothing like Honda's well tested and modern system.
I don't remember lawsuits having anything to do with the demise of the 4-6-8 engine. I just remember the electronics didn't work well. Most shops clipped a wire and these were back to normal operation. Back then, the auto makers were really struggling to meet newly imposed emission and fuel economy mandates.
Of course, my memory is probably a bit foggy since that was 24 years ago.
This advanced system is hardly "doomed to failure" but if someone is THAT frightened of it, the should probably not buy one.
so, (from what I read), you can't for example take PAX tires and put them on someone else's van which wasn't designed with PAX in mind, and expect the TPMS system to be operational.
also, i could be very wrong about this, but i thought i read another post which alluded to the suspension in the ODY touring model being designed specifically for PAX.
regards.
I have a German Shedder (err. I mean Shepherd) and I would never get a car without leather. It makes the cleanup of dog hair actually possible.
I'd like to consider the Sienna also but I think them making us move to the XLS for stuff like auto climate control, traction control and so on is just crazy - given the price difference. For this reason I'll be going with the Ody.
I remember seeing the blurb about the Touring suspension being tweaked for the PAX tires too btw.
Canoetrpr, nice handle - welcome to Edmunds. I have a new Wenonah Rogue in my stable that hasn't even seen the water yet.
Steve, Host
(No beagles since high school)
My wife and I come from a Toyota family and I've been pretty much sold on the Sienna since my wife decided her next vehicle would be a minivan. We had each driven the Sienna a couple of times and really liked the vehicle. We had also driven an '04 Ody last year (just to be 'fair' and 'open minded') but my wife really didn't care for the ride or noise levels. All the excitement over the new Ody I wrote off to rabid Honda fans just messing themselves over the thought of a new van. Some of the posts by the more rabid Honda fans (and salesmen....but not you, isell) just really set my teeth on edge. But, after taking a hard look at the Ody at a recent car show, my wife and I sat down and itemized the pros and cons of each vehicle.
We came to the inexcapable conclusion that NOBODY makes the perfect minivan; they each had items we really wanted but the other didn't offer. When comparing a base EX-L to a comparable Sienna XLE, the Sienna was several thousand more on MSRP, but we also knew that (supposedly) the Toyota dealers would be more willing to make a swinging deal. After a fairly short time, I was able to get my Toyota dealer down to around $31.1k, which put our favorite at around the same as the MSRP on a new Ody EX-L ($30.8k). I'm sure that after more arm twisting (or maybe locating a vehicle without all the JUNK that Gulf States Toyota ladles on the vehicles), I could have gone a bit lower.
And then, just to be fair, we drove a new Ody. My wife liked it just as much as the Sienna and we really appreciated two BIG advantages (to us anyway) of the Ody over the Sienna; occasional 8-passenger capacity while retaining really nice captain's chairs for the 95% of the time when the +1 seat is unoccupied, AND the infloor storage. (and I also liked correcting the Honda salesman at least 4 times on assertions he was making about the Sienna).
We then check the websites for dealers around the state (I love the internet), located several dealers with our prefered color in stock, and started making deals. We very quickly (and painlessly) worked a deal for $28.6k + TTL (McDavid Honda of Houston), more than $2.6k less, after taxes, than the Sienna with (in our eyes) more valuable assets.
Just don't expect me to become some wild-eyed raving Honda....ah....'fan'.
"We came to the inexcapable conclusion that NOBODY makes the perfect minivan; they each had items we really wanted but the other didn't offer."
Isn't that the truth. If each of these van manufacturers just added four features, then we would have several perfect vans. But they seem to almost enjoy leaving stuff out to irk us!
Sounds like ~2K US is not that hard in the USA.
Do we hear similar stories in Canada?
You have tested the rest and came back to choose the best!
That sweet melodious engine sound is not noise, Mon! It is music to the ears!
Enjoy! Congratulations!
Honestly, it was posts like these which actually KEPT me from looking at the Honda for quite some time. It's just a car, not a religion.
Steve, Host
Questioning reliability of Honda's VCM based on reliability of similar GM system is LUDICROUS! GM hasn't made a reliable car yet so you can't expect any system it produces to be reliable.
toy4me1, the Sienna might be the best minivan for you, but it's not because of VCM.
VCM is run by an ECU. It isn't as simplistic as dulnev makes it out to be. Like I said before the vibrations and mechanical imbalances created by Cylinder deactivation have to be offset by other complex mechanisms otherwise over time it will lead to premature failure. Unfortunately, in the real world of engineering, creating a program in the virtual world will NOT translate to defying the basic laws of physics as some simpletons will have you believe. If you believe it is that simple to solve physics problems by writing a program, the United States would never made it to the moon in reality. Look anybody can go to MARS Virtually without having to deal with physics!!
<"toy4me1, the Sienna might be the best minivan for you, but it's not because of VCM.">
You're are so-o right, the ODDLY is out on 3 Strikes:
1. It has VCM
2. It's not a Toyota
3. It's not a true family 8 seater!
The vibrations caused by deactivating 3 known cylinders across a known RPM band aren't that incredibly complex. On top of that the technology of vibration isolation and damping has improved greatly over the past 15 years. (worked on it on an aerospace project w/ vibration isolation in the early 90's, you should see the ugly devices they had back then!)
I drive in the city and I see the little "eco" light come on all the time, so I don't think you have to be a freeway hauler to get any benefits from it.
Granted, if you gridlocked in Manhattan 99% of the time, that might become an issue. But then the "Evil VCM" is never coming on, so whaddya worried about breaking down?
--> Andy
Lots of potential problems in any modern car which is why they give us a good warranty.
If one wants to put down the Odyssey or Sienna, the list can go on forever, how the Ody doesn't have xenons, how the Sienna only got 4 stars out of 5 in a crash test, vs. Odyssey's 5/5, etc.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
MY wife currently drives a 2002 Honda Accord driving about 10K miles a year. It’s a great car, gets almost 30 MPG on the open highway, but offers little extra room with luggage beyond the three of us. I currently drive a 1994 Dodge Caravan, gas mileage around 20 MPG overall, and use it mainly to drive to and from work (200 miles per week). But the nice feature is the extra space is there when I need it. I went to the Florida Keys 8 weeks ago and able to place my bike, a 10’ kayak, and all of my camping supplies inside the van. The last two weekends, we placed our 16’ canoe on the top along with the 10’ kayak, my son and wife inside while we traveled to the local rivers. Of course, there are other times where I can pick up 12 bags of mulch or put 10’ pieces of lumber inside the van. With a smaller vehicle such as the Highlander; yes, I would be getter a nicer ride, but for these occasional times, my ability to haul this extra stuff would be limited. This brings us back to the Odyssey or the Sienna.
I have found that our insurance company will insure the Sienna annually for $260 LESS than the Odyssey. However, since the Sienna seems to require at least 89, if not 91 octane, this extra savings will be cut in half based on my 12K driving annually.
In the end, at age 49, I now have the means and the wish to own something nicer than the average, and usually, older cars I have always driven. Does anyone have any comments on my decision? With about a $30K budget, are there other cars that may meet my need that my research has missed? Your comments would be very much appreciated.
Cindy4
Minivans are way better for canoeing and running shuttle than most SUVS, although the lower ground clearance is an issue sometimes. The lower height makes it a bit easier to get the boats on and off the roof rack (although I did drop a boat on my mirror once horsing it off the racks and busted the mirror housing good).
Steve, Host
I don't know about alternatives to minivans, but your budget is same as ours when we went shopping a few months ago. We narrowed online research to Sienna, T&C and Ody, and then went and test-drove them all. We found that the Toyota dealers would barely budge on price, and the optional packages were confusing and mix-match. The Chrysler dealers offered a very good price, and since you have a 10-year-old, the two rows of stow-and-go seats might be more helpful to you for hauling stuff (we have two kids under 4, so car seats get in the way of that). But there is resale value to consider. We found the Ody was a good mix ... resale and quality and a better price than Toyota (tho not quite as good as the T&C). Plus, and this may be important for you based on your comments, the Ody is more fun to drive (sportier, firmer ride, etc.). We found the T&C and Sienna to be more "floaty" and disconnected from the road. Before an outcry begins, all three are good vans for different reasons. Good luck.
1. It has VCM
2. It's not a Toyota
3. It's not a true family 8 seater!"
Salsa - please check out the new cars that have VCM. If I am not wrong, even the dodge have it on their hemi. Engine technology definitely have matured to a point where it can evolve and have additional benefits such as reducing consumption. Honda being a decent engine company is a good place to start. As for the 8 seater comment, neither the toyota sienna nor the honda odyssey are "true" 8 seaters. Honda does it by retaining the captain's chairs and building a smaller middle seat. Toyota did it by reducing the captain chair sizes. And for your info, the december sales figures are down 13% for the Sienna since the introduction of the Odyssey. '05 Sienna's frontal crash rating has been reduced to 4 stars for the driver compared to the '04 Sienna.
The AWD Sienna looks like a good buy but I've written it off because of the lack of leather in the LE and the lack of a spare. Plus kind of not very much choice in picking snow tires if you have to do run flat.
I was willing to give up the other extras the EXL comes with over the LE for the AWD though but these two things make it a non starter for me.
Whatever you do get good snow tires.
Let's not get carried away, shall we? I bought the Odyssey Touring three weeks ago and so far we're getting pretty crappy mileage. Yes, VCM gets the mileage higher, but you have to drive under 65 mph for it to work often enough! I drive an average 75 mph and ECO pretty much never comes on at this speed!
After lot self-debate and test drive between the Honda and Toyota, I finnally took the delivery of a 2005 Toyota Siena LE Package #2. That about I can afforth for a van. My question to all is shouls I buy the extend warranty ?. I am sure some of you have think about this when you sat at the dealer office. I own a 97 Camry V6.The power train is good, nothing broke by normal usage other than what I broke. The only problem is minor things like light bulbes went out at some hard to replace location, and mostly tire wear out. It's at 98K now and still running good. plan to keep it until Toyota come out with a hybrid Camry, which hopefully 2007. When I brought this Camry I plant to keep it for 10 years. The same goes for the van . I plan to keep it 10 years. I am driving about 17K to 20K a year. I am not sure should I brought extend warranty or not. Perhap someone could enlighten me with their experiences or rational/reason for and against. Thanks.
My reason for is to save me from getting slamd if the trans or the engine got wacked in about 4 years down the road. (the Dodge caravan did.)
My reason against is: it's a Toyota !, the body will fall off and the drive train still run fine, don't wast the money.
What's your reason ? lay it on me.
thanks - will do from now.