just my own experience regarding AWD and FWD. I now live in denver and when it snow, my sentra w/ a dedicated snow tire is not enough on cornering and won't even get into my garage. I tried my wife's nissan path 4X4 in 2 wheel drive mode in reverse imitating that of a front wheel drive and can't also go up our garage but in auto 4X4, piece of cake and handles better on corner during bad weather considering I already have a dedicated snow tire on my spec V. just my oppinion.
why are you comparing a car (wagon) to a van? Just curious. I have a an Acura MDX that runs cirles around our Sienna but that's not a fair comparrison either. Let's stick to vans vs. vans. It's pretty clear that both the Sienna and Odyssey kick butt.
Stew, I am curious how the MDX runs circles around the Sienna? Can you shed some lights? I have a MDX right now and am considering getting a Sienna XLE Limited. I don't like the MDX's ride, a little too harsh for me. But it did get me up on many hills in snow.
Since we live in Denver, we have seen many snowstorms and freezes. Denver winters are "light" as compated to the Northeast or Great Lakes Region. I hardly wear heavy jackets anymore. I remember in the 1980s when the weather seemed much harsher and colder during the winters. Just my perception.
Back to AWD - we like the idea of AWD. I sold our 1990 Subaru Legacy AWD about a year-and-a-half ago. This car had 240,000 miles on it and never had transmission or engine work. We also own an old 1990s model Isuzu Trooper 4x4. We have been driving a FWD Volkswagon TDI wagon for the last year. We haven't had such a hard time in the winter with FWD. If the roads are bad enough to need 4x4 to the point that FWD is dangerous, you probably shouldn't be on the road anyway. That is basically how we function. The only time I've had a problem with my FWD volkswagon was with the 2003 blizzard. Even my Trooper 4x4 was stuck. BTW, we live in the city close to downtown Denver.
My parents are on their 3rd Subaru and I am a big AWD fan, but I just haven't noticed the need for it in my life - nor has my wife. I've posted before that we could probably afford any minivan we want, but that we are pushing it on comfort/psychological level when price hits ~$36,000. Since we are in the market for a +$30k van that we most likely will own for a long time, we obviously are siding toward a very luxury minivan with amenities (whether it is Honda, or had been a Toyota). If Honda had an AWD model at the $30K to $35K range with DVD/NAV, we would probably go ahead and get it.
But overall, our need for AWD is not great enough for us to consider switching back to a Sienna. As a matter of fact, we have never considered AWD other than through much focus on these forums.
In my previous post we did side with the Sienna for overall luxury and features and inital internal "wow" factor. I suppose if we were making lots more money, perhaps we would just go buy the Sienna XLE AWD DVD/NAV, because my Second Vehicle would probably then be a new/used Mercedes/Volvo/Lexus. But when it comes down to trying to keep a budget and deciding on a range/value and car to love for many years, we still prefer Honda hands down.
toyota does not option the hole in the roof except on the xle models.BUT aftermarket is available with the same 2 year warranty thru dealers for Wabasto products or the one that I chose ....American sun roofs..Cost to do in my 05 sienna LE is $1100.00 plus state tax.There are s dealers nation wide,I am told...good luck
My wife and I continue to shop for her next car (aka the family mobile). We drove an EX-L on 9/21, sat in a Sienna LE last weekend, and sat in an Ody Touring last night (in the showroom). We still want to drive them back to back, but at this point, my wife seems to be leaning toward the Honda. Hard to pin it down as to why, but it's partly because I seem to prefer it, and largely because (s best as I can figure), the Sienna will cost a bit more.
Our criteria hs been nailed down to Leather (she wants), and moonroof (Have now, don't want to give up, although its more important to me). Power tailgate ins't required, although my 8 yo daughter thought it was cool, because she was just tall enough to jump up and hit the button, although she then proceded to jump in before it closed, so maybe not a good feature.
Laser cruise, etc isn't important, and don't want the Pax. SO the comparison is down to the EX-l, and whatever XLE package includes the leather, roof and safety equipment.
Of course, I'm sure we will circle back to the biggest problem with the Sienna: there will be a package that pretty much has just what I want, but they son't build them for my region, wo I will either have to give something up I want, or pay lots of $$ extra for stuff I don't want.
Hopefully the build/locate page of the Toyota site gets updated soon so I can wee what they are going to be producing.
Sienna does have nice seats, although the Ody isn't bad either.
We did eliminate most of the other choices (Cross-over SUVs, including the MDX, Pilot, XC-90 and Freestyle). She didn't care for the Freebie, and the rest are either too pricey, much less roomy, or (usually) both. An EX-L at ~30K has a ton of features, and I really can't see spending more for just a little flash or image. Plus all the SUVs (except the Freebie) all get much worse mileage, and some need premium.
We are comparing the Odyssey EX-L with the Sienna XLE. No RES or NAV. The closest thing to the EX-L is XLE package #14. MSRP w/o delivery charge is EX-L: $30,295 vs XLE #14: $33,440. It appears for extra $3K, the XLE #14 gives you the following additional items compared to the EX-L (in no particular order):
- foglights, - power rear quarter windows, - leather wrapped tilt/telescopic steering wheel, - window shades on third-row, - overhead console multi-information display, - auto on/off headlights - wood-grain style interior trim, - tire-pressure warning system, - power rear door, - power operated rear quarter windows, - Day-time running lights, - two in-glass antennas and 10-speakers (instead of 6), - slightly larger interior space, and - longer warranty on the power train (5 years instead of 3).
I believe I hit all the significant Sienna XLE #14 additional items. The EX-L does give you the following compared to the XLE #14:
- slightly larger tires (235s vs 215s), - better gas mileage, - slightly better acceleration (with more HP and Torque), - a slightly sportier ride with slightly better handling, - shorter stopping distance from 60, - more cup holders, and - lower MSRP by 3K. (however, the Sienna has larger discounts from MSRP than the Odyssey).
We will again test drive the two back-to-back this weekend and plan to make a purchase within the next two months. In the mean time it is fun to compare.
Opps, the Sienna package and prices I used was for 2004 (from Toyota website). For 2005, the Sienna XLE package #6 (as per Edmunds) is now the closest comparison. The MSRP is now $34,000 with this package. You also now get the 17" wheels with this package. So add the 17" wheels to the additional items the XLE #6 has over the EX-L, but now the premium for all the extra content is almost $4K at MSRP. This means that the Touring model is almost at this same MSRP and now the content differences diminish quite a bit. Comments?
AWD should be an option, and I think by spending time on this forum, it might become one.
My neighbor just got a 05 Odyssey Touring addition, and he lost control coming out of a turn because he gunned it by accident, and due to torque steer, ran off the road into a ditch.
I drive a Subaru WRX, and let me tell you without AWD, many more people will have accidents when 255 HP goes to the front wheels, especially with drive by wire now puts that HP right there in the front wheels, and torque steer watch out.
So if you love Navigation systems, great, but Navigation Systems doesn't keep you out of ditches, AWD does.
I too am leaning to Sienna, because of pricing and AWD.
I test drove a touring model today, and the Honda Salesman, told me to floor it.
What the hell is wrong with these folks!!!!
He's lucky I'm familiar with torque steer, otherwise both of us would of been in the Hospital.
Yea, it handles nice for a Van, but come on, this is no sports car, and with this much power, with NO AWD, you will be seeing some lawsuits soon, trust me, cause they are telling the prospective customers, go ahead, it can handle it.
Guess again, no AWD, torque steer, accident waiting to happen.
For me the Lexus AWD system in the Sienna is the way to go. For 2K more for AWD, I have peace of mind, and I prefer a luxury ride to a harsh ride any day of the week.
I used to have a Maxima SE 5 speed, a car that was "notorious" for its torque steer. In all the years I had it, I maybe noticed it a few times, and I really had to work at it (that is, hammer the car in first gear), and be on a uneven road.
Of course, I also held onto the wheel with more than one finger. Maybe holding the wheel is a forgotten art?
Even if you feel a little tug, the most common reaction is to back off the gas a bit, and counter steer to stay straight, eliminating the problem.
The danger of T.S causing an accident in an Ody is probably much less than the odds of rolling a 4wd SUV when trying to make an emergency manuver.
Yes, you can only put so much power through the front wheels, but the Ody has never been some evil handling beast waiting to jump off the road the first time you touch the gas.
To be fair, next time I take a test drive, I will see what happens if I punch it coming around a corner (with 2 hands on the wheel of course).
Well, I'm not an expert, it's just going on feeling here. Don't get me at all wrong. I really like our Sienna Quite a bit and think it was the perfect choice for my family. We have the XLE Limited AWD w/RES. Awesome Van. As far as people being wowed about the new ODY's increased HP. I had to accelerate rapidly today on the Freeway with 6 people in the Sienna and I felt it had PLENTY of power.
Now to the MDX. I dunno, I just love the thing. I'm giddy everytime i start it up. It is a newer one (2004) which is an improvement over my moms (2001). It just has plenty of power, very comfy. Handles great. I don't get the *harsh* feeling you're talking about at all.
I think the only thing I would change about the Sienna so far is that it would have been nice to have the RES controls up front. so one wouldn't have to load a new dvd up top. but that's really a minor annoyance. Great Van.
Obviously with three kids, the Sienna is much easier to get them loaded up than the MDX. Since neither my wife or myself have a commute more than 5 miles, I dumped my sedan to get the van. So It's nice to have both the SUV and Van.
Not sure I helped. but if you have specicific questions, just lemme know.
I’m very interested in the 2005 Sienna only if I could get it as an 8 seater with AWD. I know Toyota don’t offer this option in their brochure, but I was just wondering if anyone here, in this forum, may know a special way I could request this modification at the dealership. The second row tracks on the on both the 7 and 8 passenger Sienna looks identical to me. All what they just need to do is switch the chairs. At the very least, maybe someone could direct me to an aftermarket auto store where I could get this done. Thanks for reading my post.
Thanks, Stew, for the info. I agree, it's much easier to load people to the third row seats in a mini van than in the MDX. I am still trying to decide if I am going to get an Ody Touring or a Sienna XLE Limited. I hate that Toyota only puts a single CD player in when you order the NAV.How is your MDX's ride compared to your Sienna AWD? If the Sienna rides as nice as my wife's Lexus RX330, I would be happy.
So how many minivans does Toyota produce actually have AWD?
The people that would buy this are the same ones that think they need a full size SUV solely to drive to Walmart once a week.
AWD may seem impressive to some, but a minivan is a minivan! Seems like some people can't admit to just a few of the more important deciding factors:
- Odyssey is the only minivan to come equipped with dedicated side impact sensors for all three rows
- Odyssey is the only minivan to offer a rollover sensor that deploys the side curtain bags in the event of a rollover.
- Odyssey also earns the highest overall EPA rating for any vehicle in its class.
- Odyssey is the first minivan to utilize Michelin PAX System run-flat tire technology for enhanced safety and security with continuous mobility of up to 150 miles at 50mph following a tire puncture.
- A comprehensive list of advanced safety features delivered as standard equipment on all models including anti-lock brakes (ABS), advanced front and front side airbags, three-row side curtain airbags with rollover sensor (a minivan first), and Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA(R)) with Traction Control.
- Odyssey has the best in class third leg room.
- Industry-leading Honda Satellite-Linked Navigation SystemTM with expanded Voice Recognition capabilities has new features including rearview camera and Zagat survey information for restaurants.
Granted the Sienna is a good minivan, but the new Odyssey just raised the bar in the minivan class yet again and is now the benchmark by which all other minivans are judged.
So if you have to buy a Toyota, stop complaining about their product and write to Toyota and complain to them to get on the ball.
If the bar was raised overall this discussion would be for not. Honda does have some better features than the Sienna as the Sienna has some better features than the Honda. Not to be so personal but your post was not your own words. Honda is far from the new benchmark in minivans, it used to be but it has lost ground to the competition. It is still a great minivan but be objective.
Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the Freestar have the rollover protection thingy? I think that's what they say in the commercials. If that's true, then the Odyssey isn't the first minivan to have it.
And who the heck cares about PAX when (A) Sienna was the first to have it & (B) Honda forces you to use nothing but Michelin since it's tires are specially designed for Michelin?
Thanks to tcsubwoofer's hyper-analysis. He and his wife should get together with my wife and me and compare ridiculously detailed notes!
We actually ended up at a dealer that had Honda and Toyota (small town) and enjoyed the ability to directly compare. We too ended up (both) choosing the Odyssey, largely because of the engine. Here are some facts that we noticed that go beyond the analyses otherwise posted on this forum and which may be of interest to the forum.
1. Honda second doors do not open all the way when their windows are down.
2. The Honda is 11 1/2 inches off the ground (measured at the 2nd row door). The Sienna is 12 1/2 (FWD) and 13 1/2 (AWD). This matters to our dog (10 years old).
3. Odyssey only has compass on Touring edition (on dashboard "info center) vs. wider availability on Sienna.
4. A child cannot reach a cupholder when seated in the 2nd row captain's chair of a Sienna (in a car seat). Odyssey has many more cupholding options.
5. There is not a coinholder on any Odyssey trim level.
6. "Converation mirror" on Sienna can be rotated to focus on particular area in back of vehicle. Odyssey cannot.
7. Engineers on Odyssey decided that a "dead pedal" matters. A "dead pedal" is the place where your left foot rests while driving. For enthusiasts and larger people, this significantly enhances driving comfort for longer periods. Sienna (and many other non-German vehicles) ignored it.
8. When investigating the Odyssey Touring, you should examine what the 2nd row looks like when the center console is removed (access to lazy susan, etc.). They provide (fairly lame) carpet, etc. to cover up the seat and console tracks.
9. On the Odyssey, there is no button in the 2nd row for closing power doors. A 2nd row passenger (including kids) must reach backwards and engage the door handle to launch the automatic doors.
I could go on and on, but these were a few observations I hadn't noticed on previous forums.
"I've read them all. Can't find one that says they are the new benchmark."
From the October 2004 Motor Trend .. pg.52 "Standard-setter then Standard-Setter Again" and "Our drive confirmed that Honda has no intention of giving up it's position as a minivan leader"
From Edmunds's first drive ... http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/102609/articl- e.html "It's Good To Be King" and "If it sounds like the Odyssey is a place we'd want to spend time in, you're right. With vehicles designed to be everything from no-frills transportation to luxurious, fast sport coupes, the most important thing about minivan design is utility. It's not simply about style or luxury or power. Minivans are about the people inside them — their comfort, safety and the way they live. And in the case of the new Odyssey, Honda again approaches the challenge with a special thoughtfulness that sets the Odyssey apart from the competition."
And yet another .. http://www.autosite.com/Reviews/2005-honda-odyssey-1.asp "the redesigned 2005 Honda Odyssey is something special, and anyone thinking about buying a family vehicle needs to learn more about the latest iteration of the modern minivan benchmark."
I could keep going but I'll save myself precious time that I could be using to drink my Odyssey flavored kool-aid and tell you to just go to google and do a search for *2005 Odyssey benchmark*.
"That’s right Honda had a major recall for transmission problems."
I don't think anyone has denied that Honda has a transmission recall. Toyota had the whole sludge fiasco and some recalls on their flagship, the LS430. Just shows no one is immune to failure.
"Anyone that pays MSRP and above for this Van is just losing money. Try waiting a month, and negotiate, then prepare to walk away.
Buying any new vehicle is losing money. That is not exclusive to the Odyssey so I am not sure what your point is.
Looks like you failed you include the most important part of the article..."The verdict: The 2005 Honda Odyssey finishes in a three-way tie for first place with the Toyota Sienna and Chrysler Town & Country. All three have compensating strengths and weaknesses"
Selected claim No. 2: The new Odyssey offers "a more stylish and sophisticated package with the driving character of a luxury performance sedan for unmatched driving enjoyment in the minivan class."
Ria, head of the test family's household, disagreed with the "stylish" aspect of that claim in terms of exterior design. "It looks pretty much like mine," she said. But she was wowed by the interior treatment, especially the "cool" placement of the five-speed automatic gearshift lever atop the center console.
But all five members of Ria's family (as well as my wife and one of her teaching colleagues) agreed that the tested Odyssey -- a front-wheel-drive vehicle with a more rigid body frame, a better suspension system and a more powerful six-cylinder engine than predecessor models -- drove more like a luxury sedan.
"I don't even feel like I'm in a minivan when I'm driving this one," Ria said. "This feels like a big, expensive car." Said Mary Anne: "It handles. It really, really handles."
Everybody liked the new Odyssey's Lazy Susan, cleverly placed beneath a trap door between the front and second-row seats. By rotating the device -- which sometimes got stuck in the tested minivan -- passengers in the front two rows could put away or gain access to small items stored there. But there was much grumbling that Honda, which invented fold-away third-row seats, did not match the new Chrysler Town & Country's fold-away "Stow 'n Go" seats in the second and third rows. The new Odyssey has a tiny, center fold-away seat in the second row. But no one chose to use that seat. It was shunned by even the smallest member of Ria's family, Q (yes, "Q" is his name), who asked: "Why is it there? What is it for?" I had no answer.
But that perceived Honda lapse was forgiven because of the new Odyssey's long list of "first minivan with" safety technologies, such as side-curtain air bags with rollover sensors that protect all three rows of seats.
"First minivan with" also applies to what Honda calls "Variable Cylinder Management," a fuel-saving technology that shuts off one bank of the six-cylinder engine during low-speed driving.
No one in the test family commented on Honda's application of that technology, which is a good thing, because it is supposed to be transparent.
The verdict: The 2005 Honda Odyssey finishes in a three-way tie for first place with the Toyota Sienna and Chrysler Town & Country. All three have compensating strengths and weaknesses; and it's quite clear that the Odyssey borrowed as much from them (such as the second-row roll-down windows first used in the Sienna minivan) as they borrowed from the Odyssey. The Nissan Quest, which gets good marks for styling, finishes a distant second behind that pack. The Ford Freestar finishes third. The Mazda MPV takes the fourth slot.
I appreciate your post. We've been doing the same and we landed ever so slightly on the Toyota side of the fence. Yesterday we were at a Toyota dealer and had decided to just order the exact Sienna we wanted. The MSRP for this 2005 XLE came in at 33,004. This is a small town dealer (Midland, TX) and the best they would do was $2100 over the Edmund's invoice price ($1500 off MSRP). We politely walked and are planning to find a unit on a lot in Dallas-Ft. Worth when we're there in 2 weeks.
My question for you: when you mention getting quotes from dealers in the Denver area for $500 or $1000 over invoice, is this the Edmund's invoice or an invoice price that the dealer is quoting. I've heard that the dealer's will show invoice costs that are about $1200 higher than the Edmund's invoice prices. I'd appreciate some clarification.
I'd also like to hear what kind of discounts 2005 Sienna XLE buyers have received off the MSRP window sticker. Thanks!
Our personal feature "must haves" include leather, sun-roof and all the safety features. No RES or NAV.
As I posted previously, to get these, Toyota forces you to get the XLE trim with the #14 package (or #6 for 2005). This brings MRSP to $34K (for 2005). It compares nicely to the Odyssey Touring trim at $35K. But, Honda allows us to get our "must have" items with the EX-L at just over $30K. This puts the Toyota at a price disadvantage.
However, the biggest factor that is pushing us towards the Honda is the ride quality. We drove the Touring back-to-back with the XLE #14. We drove each van for 20 minutes (about 12 miles) on the same course of streets, bumps and freeway. We found the Honda to have the better ride, crisper handling and it felt more confident at high speeds on the freeway. We were very impressed with the Honda.
Unfortunately the Honda dealer did not have the EX-L on the lot, so we could not do the back-to-back comparison with the trim level we would be most interested in. However, there shouldn't be much, if any of a difference in the driving experience.
By the way, this LA area Honda dealer had a $2500 dealer mark-up on the Touring. There were 2 on the lot, both Touring and both black. The black color looked great on the van. He said that he had sold a total of 4 since last weeks introduction. He was expecting 2 EX-L's next week. By contrast, the Toyota dealer up the street had lots of 2004 Sienna's on the lot. The salesman said the 2005's are not expected to arrive until next month.
Of course, the price factor diminishes if the Honda continues to be marked-up and the Sienna can be had at near invoice.
Well, I still have not test driven the new Ody, but I was able to check out a Touring in person yesterday. It looks good, just like the internet pics. Overall I think the new Ody looks as good as the Sienna on the exterior, but better than the Sienna on the interior. But I came to this one conclusion: Japanese vehicles have plastic chromes, but Korean vehicles have metal chromes. The Sienna, the Ody, and even my Lexus LS400 have plastic chromes, but yet I am almost certain the Hyundai and Kia vehicles have metal chromes. Oh well, the new Ody still looks good with plastic chrome, and so does the Sienna.
Right now, since the new Ody has the best overall looks to me and it has the best NAV+RES, I will most likely buy the Ody, but I will wait for another 6-12 months for the price to really drop.
Attractive inside and outside, cast wheels, comfortable seats, most power, good fuel economy, separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger, flexible seating arrangements, rear heater and rear airconditioner. The Sienna LE is NOT as attractive inside or outside and does not have separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger.
that's why there are choices in the marketplace, and manudacturers make different trim lines and option packages. It's hard to please everyone, and each buyer has to pick throug the available choices to figure out what best fits their needs.
One thing I can guarantee is my priorities aren't likely to be the same as the next guys.
The dealer I bought my 04 Sienna LE-8 from, Fitzgerald, in Gaithersburg, MD (fitzmall.com) is currently selling their 2005 Sienna XLE's for 700 over invoice. That's 2000 below MSRP for a stripper and 3500 for a model with RES.
BTW, September 2004 Odyssey sales are down 21% from the year before (9,529 vs. 11,584), Sienna sales were 11,697. With real-world transaction prices in favor of the Sienna, that should come as no surprise.
If you're not interested in factory navigation, the Odyssey's advantages over the Sienna are minimal, and the Sienna has features NOT available on the Odyssey at ANY price (AWD, child-seat friendly 2nd row/8 passenger seating, factory HID lamps, laser cruise control).
Who cares about buying the new benchmark minivan? not the YTD 79,000+ buyers of the Ford Freestar, that's for sure.
are likely to be off for the Ody because of the switch over to the '05s. most dealers had a very limited supply of '05s, and many were running short of leftover '04s, so they basically had nothing to sell. A better indication will be in a couple of months when Honda and Toyota production are both in full swing.
Looks like you don't know anything about the all new 05 ody which has many new tech that sienna doesn't have at any price, ie. VSC, PAX, VCM, etc. The 04 sienna is old news, nothing new.
I was shown invoice from the dealer computer (showed MSRP and invoice). I don't recall them differing all that much from Edmunds prices. One dealer offered me $500 over invoice on what he had in stock (silver, gold colored XLEs). Another dealer offered me $1,000 over invoice on anything I wanted. I didn't notice any invoice or MSRP padding.
Sienna has VSC and the first run flat tires on a van. No it doesn't have VCM, which only saves how many MPG?? One.
So you are wrong on 2 out of three of your advantages.
Sienna- Has a better transmission, Honda’s is the one with failing @ 100K miles, AWD, better handling in all weather, a premium JBL eight-speaker sound system that blows away Honda’s system. Edumds said-The best factory sound system available in a minivan. fog lights ,and smart cruise control, tire pressure warning system while options include Vehicle Skid Control (VSC) with traction control (TRAC) and Brake Assist
From Edmunds: Another of the Sienna's strong points is its smooth and compliant ride, which allows it to soak up bumps and ruts without disturbing its occupants.
"The Lexus-like interior is probably the most luxury you'll find in a minivan," and we'll stick to that claim.
The only old news is idiotic people paying obscene prices to get 1 of many fine vans out there
Odyssey is very good van, but only one of many. Certainly not worth what Honda dealers are charging. And certainly not as far ahead as Honda bigots think.
"(Ody) not as far ahead (of Sienna) as Honda bigots think"
Overall, you are correct. In some cases, the Sienna tops the Ody like offering AWD, LaserCruise, 3 row sunshades on Limited; and power tailgate, tire pressure monitoring, outside temp even on the XLE vs Touring only on Ody.
But there are at least 3 cases where the Ody tops the Sienna: 1) MUCH better NAV--even better than a Lexus LX/LS. This Ody NAV is FAR FAR FAR AHEAD of the Sienna's already good NAV system. 2) better/more convinient RES-9", front loading 3) 6 CD changer on NAV models instead of single CD
Where did you get the Toyota tattoo from? Also where are your MPG figures on the VCM coming from?
Honda with VCM (255 HP) 20/28 regular gas.
Sienna (230 HP)19/27 premium recommended.
25 horsepower more on regular unleaded gas, which engine do you want? Less horsepower, less gas mileage; or more HP, and better gas mileage on regular gas. They both cost about the same in the vehicle.
Background: I paid 26.3k cash for my Sienna in June. I got VSC + TRAC, rear discs/alloys, side curtain airbags, power door, and a few more months to use a minivan than having to wait for for the 05 Odyssey (which was my original plan). My wife and I didn't grow up with RES and were determined not to spoil our kids, and passed on this. Yeah, no 6CD or MP3 player, but nothing that a carputer project can't fix.
Which one of ctsang's (which he thinks I'm ignorant of) vaunted/unique high-tech 05 Odyssey features are you going to get at that price?
Just ACE, so I'll try my hardest not to hit anyone with my Sienna.
VCM? You're going to be driving that EX-L a _very_ long time for VCM to pay for itself, 30k MSRP, minus a little discount. NAV? ouch, 34k. PAX? from what I read on this and the 05 Odyssey forum, don't trash your tire/wheel combo and expect to get it fixed in a timely or cheap manner.
The price of excellence is, well, pricey. I don't know about anyone else's priorities but I'm saving for the kids' college funds now.
Yeah, I'm a cheapskate, but not as much the folks who buy Freestars.
Just give up on the premium fuel thing already. I've been using regular since I've had my Sienna and it's no difference.
And I've been told that it's torque that pulls the car before HP matters. If that's the case, I guess the 242lb- ft on the Sienna's is useless since the Odyssey is (OH!!!!) 8lbs-ft more and a much higher RPM.
No, you don't get the lazy susan with the LX. But you still get the in-floor storage area (which is not available in the Sienna).
A long time until VCM pays for itself? Hard to figure since I don't know how much VCM adds to the cost of the Ody. Remember, when you step up from the EX to the EX-L, you get (in addition to the VCM) leather, sunroof, 6 disk CD changer, and a few other minor doodads. Not to mention that the EX-L is generally regarded as quieter than the EX due to the noice canceling technology.
Agree with you on the PAX. I have NO idea why ctsang thought this was some kind of a 'benefit'. Interesting that those touting the PAX tires can only name the benefits of standard runflats but can't tell me why PAX runflats are better than standard runflats to the point where I would be willing to go with a proprietary system (and one in which the owner can NOT install a set of beater rims and snow tires without voiding the car warrantee). I'm not sure what owners of Touring models in the NE are going to do this winter.......park it?
hey doug, The *ride* in the Seinaa is really nice. Definitely a softer feel than the MDX. It's really smooth and quiet. From everything I have read, Sienna gets the nod in terms of ride. I would certainly consider the ODY as well. I think you can't lose with either. But I did want AWD so that sold it for me. And Yes, total bonehead move on the 6cd being given up for the NAV. That's just nuts. I bet you can add an aftermarket changer if you want. Anyways, we love it. And if you're buying soon. I think you can do the Sienna a hell of a lot cheaper than an equally equipped ODY.
""Granted the Sienna is a good minivan, but the new Odyssey just raised the bar in the minivan class yet again and is now the benchmark by which all other minivans are judged.""
Wow, some people are just taking this too personally. They are both wonderful vans. And as was said. Sienna is better in some areas and ODY is better in some area.
Sounds like a Honda Dealer getting a little sensative here.
lighten up and give us some counstructive information.
Comments
No torque steer, great in rain and snow, and can go off road, and no problems with the transmission.
Another vehicle, quite a surprise too is the new Ford Freestyle. AWD option and Volvo underneath for a lot less money.
Thanks.
Back to AWD - we like the idea of AWD. I sold our 1990 Subaru Legacy AWD about a year-and-a-half ago. This car had 240,000 miles on it and never had transmission or engine work. We also own an old 1990s model Isuzu Trooper 4x4. We have been driving a FWD Volkswagon TDI wagon for the last year. We haven't had such a hard time in the winter with FWD. If the roads are bad enough to need 4x4 to the point that FWD is dangerous, you probably shouldn't be on the road anyway. That is basically how we function. The only time I've had a problem with my FWD volkswagon was with the 2003 blizzard. Even my Trooper 4x4 was stuck. BTW, we live in the city close to downtown Denver.
My parents are on their 3rd Subaru and I am a big AWD fan, but I just haven't noticed the need for it in my life - nor has my wife. I've posted before that we could probably afford any minivan we want, but that we are pushing it on comfort/psychological level when price hits ~$36,000. Since we are in the market for a +$30k van that we most likely will own for a long time, we obviously are siding toward a very luxury minivan with amenities (whether it is Honda, or had been a Toyota). If Honda had an AWD model at the $30K to $35K range with DVD/NAV, we would probably go ahead and get it.
But overall, our need for AWD is not great enough for us to consider switching back to a Sienna. As a matter of fact, we have never considered AWD other than through much focus on these forums.
In my previous post we did side with the Sienna for overall luxury and features and inital internal "wow" factor. I suppose if we were making lots more money, perhaps we would just go buy the Sienna XLE AWD DVD/NAV, because my Second Vehicle would probably then be a new/used Mercedes/Volvo/Lexus. But when it comes down to trying to keep a budget and deciding on a range/value and car to love for many years, we still prefer Honda hands down.
Steve, Host
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Our criteria hs been nailed down to Leather (she wants), and moonroof (Have now, don't want to give up, although its more important to me). Power tailgate ins't required, although my 8 yo daughter thought it was cool, because she was just tall enough to jump up and hit the button, although she then proceded to jump in before it closed, so maybe not a good feature.
Laser cruise, etc isn't important, and don't want the Pax. SO the comparison is down to the EX-l, and whatever XLE package includes the leather, roof and safety equipment.
Of course, I'm sure we will circle back to the biggest problem with the Sienna: there will be a package that pretty much has just what I want, but they son't build them for my region, wo I will either have to give something up I want, or pay lots of $$ extra for stuff I don't want.
Hopefully the build/locate page of the Toyota site gets updated soon so I can wee what they are going to be producing.
Sienna does have nice seats, although the Ody isn't bad either.
We did eliminate most of the other choices (Cross-over SUVs, including the MDX, Pilot, XC-90 and Freestyle). She didn't care for the Freebie, and the rest are either too pricey, much less roomy, or (usually) both. An EX-L at ~30K has a ton of features, and I really can't see spending more for just a little flash or image. Plus all the SUVs (except the Freebie) all get much worse mileage, and some need premium.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I was hoping someone in there would have some quasi-official stats demonstrating whether AWD really made any safety difference.
Steve, Host
- foglights,
- power rear quarter windows,
- leather wrapped tilt/telescopic steering wheel,
- window shades on third-row,
- overhead console multi-information display,
- auto on/off headlights
- wood-grain style interior trim,
- tire-pressure warning system,
- power rear door,
- power operated rear quarter windows,
- Day-time running lights,
- two in-glass antennas and 10-speakers (instead of 6),
- slightly larger interior space, and
- longer warranty on the power train (5 years instead of 3).
I believe I hit all the significant Sienna XLE #14 additional items. The EX-L does give you the following compared to the XLE #14:
- slightly larger tires (235s vs 215s),
- better gas mileage,
- slightly better acceleration (with more HP and Torque),
- a slightly sportier ride with slightly better handling,
- shorter stopping distance from 60,
- more cup holders, and
- lower MSRP by 3K. (however, the Sienna has larger discounts from MSRP than the Odyssey).
We will again test drive the two back-to-back this weekend and plan to make a purchase within the next two months. In the mean time it is fun to compare.
Any comments? Did I miss something?
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
My neighbor just got a 05 Odyssey Touring addition, and he lost control coming out of a turn because he gunned it by accident, and due to torque steer, ran off the road into a ditch.
I drive a Subaru WRX, and let me tell you without AWD, many more people will have accidents when 255 HP goes to the front wheels, especially with drive by wire now puts that HP right there in the front wheels, and torque steer watch out.
So if you love Navigation systems, great, but Navigation Systems doesn't keep you out of ditches, AWD does.
I too am leaning to Sienna, because of pricing and AWD.
So give me AWD or give me death!!!!
What the hell is wrong with these folks!!!!
He's lucky I'm familiar with torque steer, otherwise both of us would of been in the Hospital.
Yea, it handles nice for a Van, but come on, this is no sports car, and with this much power, with NO AWD, you will be seeing some lawsuits soon, trust me, cause they are telling the prospective customers, go ahead, it can handle it.
Guess again, no AWD, torque steer, accident waiting to happen.
For me the Lexus AWD system in the Sienna is the way to go. For 2K more for AWD, I have peace of mind, and I prefer a luxury ride to a harsh ride any day of the week.
Of course, I also held onto the wheel with more than one finger. Maybe holding the wheel is a forgotten art?
Even if you feel a little tug, the most common reaction is to back off the gas a bit, and counter steer to stay straight, eliminating the problem.
The danger of T.S causing an accident in an Ody is probably much less than the odds of rolling a 4wd SUV when trying to make an emergency manuver.
Yes, you can only put so much power through the front wheels, but the Ody has never been some evil handling beast waiting to jump off the road the first time you touch the gas.
To be fair, next time I take a test drive, I will see what happens if I punch it coming around a corner (with 2 hands on the wheel of course).
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Well, I'm not an expert, it's just going on feeling here. Don't get me at all wrong. I really like our Sienna Quite a bit and think it was the perfect choice for my family. We have the XLE Limited AWD w/RES. Awesome Van. As far as people being wowed about the new ODY's increased HP. I had to accelerate rapidly today on the Freeway with 6 people in the Sienna and I felt it had PLENTY of power.
Now to the MDX. I dunno, I just love the thing. I'm giddy everytime i start it up. It is a newer one (2004) which is an improvement over my moms (2001). It just has plenty of power, very comfy. Handles great. I don't get the *harsh* feeling you're talking about at all.
I think the only thing I would change about the Sienna so far is that it would have been nice to have the RES controls up front. so one wouldn't have to load a new dvd up top. but that's really a minor annoyance. Great Van.
Obviously with three kids, the Sienna is much easier to get them loaded up than the MDX. Since neither my wife or myself have a commute more than 5 miles, I dumped my sedan to get the van. So It's nice to have both the SUV and Van.
Not sure I helped. but if you have specicific questions, just lemme know.
I’m very interested in the 2005 Sienna only if I could get it as an 8 seater with AWD. I know Toyota don’t offer this option in their brochure, but I was just wondering if anyone here, in this forum, may know a special way I could request this modification at the dealership. The second row tracks on the on both the 7 and 8 passenger Sienna looks identical to me. All what they just need to do is switch the chairs. At the very least, maybe someone could direct me to an aftermarket auto store where I could get this done. Thanks for reading my post.
Thanks again.
The people that would buy this are the same ones that think they need a full size SUV solely to drive to Walmart once a week.
AWD may seem impressive to some, but a minivan is a minivan! Seems like some people can't admit to just a few of the more important deciding factors:
- Odyssey is the only minivan to come equipped with dedicated side impact sensors for all three rows
- Odyssey is the only minivan to offer a rollover sensor that deploys the side curtain bags in the event of a rollover.
- Odyssey also earns the highest overall EPA rating for any vehicle in its class.
- Odyssey is the first minivan to utilize Michelin PAX System run-flat tire technology for enhanced safety and security with continuous mobility of up to 150 miles at 50mph following a tire puncture.
- A comprehensive list of advanced safety features delivered as standard equipment on all models including anti-lock brakes (ABS), advanced front and front side airbags, three-row side curtain airbags with rollover sensor (a minivan first), and Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA(R)) with Traction Control.
- Odyssey has the best in class third leg room.
- Industry-leading Honda Satellite-Linked Navigation SystemTM with expanded Voice Recognition capabilities has new features including rearview camera and Zagat survey information for restaurants.
Granted the Sienna is a good minivan, but the new Odyssey just raised the bar in the minivan class yet again and is now the benchmark by which all other minivans are judged.
So if you have to buy a Toyota, stop complaining about their product and write to Toyota and complain to them to get on the ball.
And who the heck cares about PAX when (A) Sienna was the first to have it & (B) Honda forces you to use nothing but Michelin since it's tires are specially designed for Michelin?
I've read them all. Can't find one that says they are the new benchmark.
You work for Honda or just drinking the Honda Kool-Aid.
Fact is Odyssey is an excellent Van, so is the Sienna. Sienna is an Lexus RX330 in a Van, and with AWD still has one of 2 things Odyssey does not.
Odyssey has transmission problems, as does Pilot and MDX, and of course was ignored by Honda until there was a major recall.
That’s right Honda had a major recall for transmission problems.
So please just the facts, and nothing but the facts man.
Stop the Honda propaganda. Most of this board sound just like you work for Honda.
Anyone that pays MSRP and above for this Van is just losing money. Try waiting a month, and negotiate, then prepare to walk away.
Trust me the price will come down.
We actually ended up at a dealer that had Honda and Toyota (small town) and enjoyed the ability to directly compare. We too ended up (both) choosing the Odyssey, largely because of the engine. Here are some facts that we noticed that go beyond the analyses otherwise posted on this forum and which may be of interest to the forum.
1. Honda second doors do not open all the way when their windows are down.
2. The Honda is 11 1/2 inches off the ground (measured at the 2nd row door). The Sienna is 12 1/2 (FWD) and 13 1/2 (AWD). This matters to our dog (10 years old).
3. Odyssey only has compass on Touring edition (on dashboard "info center) vs. wider availability on Sienna.
4. A child cannot reach a cupholder when seated in the 2nd row captain's chair of a Sienna (in a car seat). Odyssey has many more cupholding options.
5. There is not a coinholder on any Odyssey trim level.
6. "Converation mirror" on Sienna can be rotated to focus on particular area in back of vehicle. Odyssey cannot.
7. Engineers on Odyssey decided that a "dead pedal" matters. A "dead pedal" is the place where your left foot rests while driving. For enthusiasts and larger people, this significantly enhances driving comfort for longer periods. Sienna (and many other non-German vehicles) ignored it.
8. When investigating the Odyssey Touring, you should examine what the 2nd row looks like when the center console is removed (access to lazy susan, etc.). They provide (fairly lame) carpet, etc. to cover up the seat and console tracks.
9. On the Odyssey, there is no button in the 2nd row for closing power doors. A 2nd row passenger (including kids) must reach backwards and engage the door handle to launch the automatic doors.
I could go on and on, but these were a few observations I hadn't noticed on previous forums.
Go Steelers!
TREB
From the October 2004 Motor Trend .. pg.52
"Standard-setter then Standard-Setter Again" and "Our drive confirmed that Honda has no intention of giving up it's position as a minivan leader"
From Edmunds's first drive ... http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/102609/articl- e.html
"It's Good To Be King" and "If it sounds like the Odyssey is a place we'd want to spend time in, you're right. With vehicles designed to be everything from no-frills transportation to luxurious, fast sport coupes, the most important thing about minivan design is utility. It's not simply about style or luxury or power. Minivans are about the people inside them — their comfort, safety and the way they live. And in the case of the new Odyssey, Honda again approaches the challenge with a special thoughtfulness that sets the Odyssey apart from the competition."
And yet another .. http://www.autosite.com/Reviews/2005-honda-odyssey-1.asp
"the redesigned 2005 Honda Odyssey is something special, and anyone thinking about buying a family vehicle needs to learn more about the latest iteration of the modern minivan benchmark."
I could keep going but I'll save myself precious time that I could be using to drink my Odyssey flavored kool-aid and tell you to just go to google and do a search for *2005 Odyssey benchmark*.
"That’s right Honda had a major recall for transmission problems."
I don't think anyone has denied that Honda has a transmission recall. Toyota had the whole sludge fiasco and some recalls on their flagship, the LS430. Just shows no one is immune to failure.
"Anyone that pays MSRP and above for this Van is just losing money. Try waiting a month, and negotiate, then prepare to walk away.
Buying any new vehicle is losing money. That is not exclusive to the Odyssey so I am not sure what your point is.
#7: Sienna has no dead pedal.
Wrong. Sienna does have one. Right between the brake and the parking brake pedal. It's been there. You just gotta look.
Selected claim No. 2: The new Odyssey offers "a more stylish and sophisticated package with the driving character of a luxury performance sedan for unmatched driving enjoyment in the minivan class."
Ria, head of the test family's household, disagreed with the "stylish" aspect of that claim in terms of exterior design. "It looks pretty much like mine," she said. But she was wowed by the interior treatment, especially the "cool" placement of the five-speed automatic gearshift lever atop the center console.
But all five members of Ria's family (as well as my wife and one of her teaching colleagues) agreed that the tested Odyssey -- a front-wheel-drive vehicle with a more rigid body frame, a better suspension system and a more powerful six-cylinder engine than predecessor models -- drove more like a luxury sedan.
"I don't even feel like I'm in a minivan when I'm driving this one," Ria said. "This feels like a big, expensive car." Said Mary Anne: "It handles. It really, really handles."
Everybody liked the new Odyssey's Lazy Susan, cleverly placed beneath a trap door between the front and second-row seats. By rotating the device -- which sometimes got stuck in the tested minivan -- passengers in the front two rows could put away or gain access to small items stored there. But there was much grumbling that Honda, which invented fold-away third-row seats, did not match the new Chrysler Town & Country's fold-away "Stow 'n Go" seats in the second and third rows. The new Odyssey has a tiny, center fold-away seat in the second row. But no one chose to use that seat. It was shunned by even the smallest member of Ria's family, Q (yes, "Q" is his name), who asked: "Why is it there? What is it for?" I had no answer.
But that perceived Honda lapse was forgiven because of the new Odyssey's long list of "first minivan with" safety technologies, such as side-curtain air bags with rollover sensors that protect all three rows of seats.
"First minivan with" also applies to what Honda calls "Variable Cylinder Management," a fuel-saving technology that shuts off one bank of the six-cylinder engine during low-speed driving.
No one in the test family commented on Honda's application of that technology, which is a good thing, because it is supposed to be transparent.
The verdict: The 2005 Honda Odyssey finishes in a three-way tie for first place with the Toyota Sienna and Chrysler Town & Country. All three have compensating strengths and weaknesses; and it's quite clear that the Odyssey borrowed as much from them (such as the second-row roll-down windows first used in the Sienna minivan) as they borrowed from the Odyssey. The Nissan Quest, which gets good marks for styling, finishes a distant second behind that pack. The Ford Freestar finishes third. The Mazda MPV takes the fourth slot.
I appreciate your post. We've been doing the same and we landed ever so slightly on the Toyota side of the fence. Yesterday we were at a Toyota dealer and had decided to just order the exact Sienna we wanted. The MSRP for this 2005 XLE came in at 33,004. This is a small town dealer (Midland, TX) and the best they would do was $2100 over the Edmund's invoice price ($1500 off MSRP). We politely walked and are planning to find a unit on a lot in Dallas-Ft. Worth when we're there in 2 weeks.
My question for you: when you mention getting quotes from dealers in the Denver area for $500 or $1000 over invoice, is this the Edmund's invoice or an invoice price that the dealer is quoting. I've heard that the dealer's will show invoice costs that are about $1200 higher than the Edmund's invoice prices. I'd appreciate some clarification.
I'd also like to hear what kind of discounts 2005 Sienna XLE buyers have received off the MSRP window sticker. Thanks!
KRC
As I posted previously, to get these, Toyota forces you to get the XLE trim with the #14 package (or #6 for 2005). This brings MRSP to $34K (for 2005). It compares nicely to the Odyssey Touring trim at $35K. But, Honda allows us to get our "must have" items with the EX-L at just over $30K. This puts the Toyota at a price disadvantage.
However, the biggest factor that is pushing us towards the Honda is the ride quality. We drove the Touring back-to-back with the XLE #14. We drove each van for 20 minutes (about 12 miles) on the same course of streets, bumps and freeway. We found the Honda to have the better ride, crisper handling and it felt more confident at high speeds on the freeway. We were very impressed with the Honda.
Unfortunately the Honda dealer did not have the EX-L on the lot, so we could not do the back-to-back comparison with the trim level we would be most interested in. However, there shouldn't be much, if any of a difference in the driving experience.
By the way, this LA area Honda dealer had a $2500 dealer mark-up on the Touring. There were 2 on the lot, both Touring and both black. The black color looked great on the van. He said that he had sold a total of 4 since last weeks introduction. He was expecting 2 EX-L's next week. By contrast, the Toyota dealer up the street had lots of 2004 Sienna's on the lot. The salesman said the 2005's are not expected to arrive until next month.
Of course, the price factor diminishes if the Honda continues to be marked-up and the Sienna can be had at near invoice.
It looks good, just like the internet pics.
Overall I think the new Ody looks as good as the Sienna on the exterior, but better than the Sienna on the interior.
But I came to this one conclusion: Japanese vehicles have plastic chromes, but Korean vehicles have metal chromes.
The Sienna, the Ody, and even my Lexus LS400 have plastic chromes, but yet I am almost certain the Hyundai and Kia vehicles have metal chromes. Oh well, the new Ody still looks good with plastic chrome, and so does the Sienna.
Right now, since the new Ody has the best overall looks to me and it has the best NAV+RES, I will most likely buy the Ody, but I will wait for another 6-12 months for the price to really drop.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
The Sienna LE is NOT as attractive inside or outside and does not have separately controlled temperature for driver and front passenger.
One thing I can guarantee is my priorities aren't likely to be the same as the next guys.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
BTW, September 2004 Odyssey sales are down 21% from the year before (9,529 vs. 11,584), Sienna sales were 11,697. With real-world transaction prices in favor of the Sienna, that should come as no surprise.
If you're not interested in factory navigation, the Odyssey's advantages over the Sienna are minimal, and the Sienna has features NOT available on the Odyssey at ANY price (AWD, child-seat friendly 2nd row/8 passenger seating, factory HID lamps, laser cruise control).
Who cares about buying the new benchmark minivan? not the YTD 79,000+ buyers of the Ford Freestar, that's for sure.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Sienna has VSC and the first run flat tires on a van. No it doesn't have VCM, which only saves how many MPG?? One.
So you are wrong on 2 out of three of your advantages.
Sienna-
Has a better transmission, Honda’s is the one with failing @ 100K miles, AWD, better handling in all weather, a premium JBL eight-speaker sound system that blows away Honda’s system. Edumds said-The best factory sound system available in a minivan. fog lights ,and smart cruise control, tire pressure warning system while options include Vehicle Skid Control (VSC) with traction control (TRAC) and Brake Assist
From Edmunds: Another of the Sienna's strong points is its smooth and compliant ride, which allows it to soak up bumps and ruts without disturbing its occupants.
"The Lexus-like interior is probably the most luxury you'll find in a minivan," and we'll stick to that claim.
The only old news is idiotic people paying obscene prices to get 1 of many fine vans out there
Odyssey is very good van, but only one of many. Certainly not worth what Honda dealers are charging. And certainly not as far ahead as Honda bigots think.
Overall, you are correct.
In some cases, the Sienna tops the Ody like offering AWD, LaserCruise, 3 row sunshades on Limited; and power tailgate, tire pressure monitoring, outside temp even on the XLE vs Touring only on Ody.
But there are at least 3 cases where the Ody tops the Sienna:
1) MUCH better NAV--even better than a Lexus LX/LS. This Ody NAV is FAR FAR FAR AHEAD of the Sienna's already good NAV system.
2) better/more convinient RES-9", front loading
3) 6 CD changer on NAV models instead of single CD
Honda with VCM (255 HP) 20/28 regular gas.
Sienna (230 HP)19/27 premium recommended.
25 horsepower more on regular unleaded gas, which engine do you want? Less horsepower, less gas mileage; or more HP, and better gas mileage on regular gas. They both cost about the same in the vehicle.
Which one of ctsang's (which he thinks I'm ignorant of) vaunted/unique high-tech 05 Odyssey features are you going to get at that price?
Just ACE, so I'll try my hardest not to hit anyone with my Sienna.
VCM? You're going to be driving that EX-L a _very_ long time for VCM to pay for itself, 30k MSRP, minus a little discount. NAV? ouch, 34k. PAX? from what I read on this and the 05 Odyssey forum, don't trash your tire/wheel combo and expect to get it fixed in a timely or cheap manner.
The price of excellence is, well, pricey. I don't know about anyone else's priorities but I'm saving for the kids' college funds now.
Yeah, I'm a cheapskate, but not as much the folks who buy Freestars.
Just give up on the premium fuel thing already. I've been using regular since I've had my Sienna and it's no difference.
And I've been told that it's torque that pulls the car before HP matters. If that's the case, I guess the 242lb- ft on the Sienna's is useless since the Odyssey is (OH!!!!) 8lbs-ft more and a much higher RPM.
A long time until VCM pays for itself? Hard to figure since I don't know how much VCM adds to the cost of the Ody. Remember, when you step up from the EX to the EX-L, you get (in addition to the VCM) leather, sunroof, 6 disk CD changer, and a few other minor doodads. Not to mention that the EX-L is generally regarded as quieter than the EX due to the noice canceling technology.
Agree with you on the PAX. I have NO idea why ctsang thought this was some kind of a 'benefit'. Interesting that those touting the PAX tires can only name the benefits of standard runflats but can't tell me why PAX runflats are better than standard runflats to the point where I would be willing to go with a proprietary system (and one in which the owner can NOT install a set of beater rims and snow tires without voiding the car warrantee). I'm not sure what owners of Touring models in the NE are going to do this winter.......park it?
Wow, some people are just taking this too personally. They are both wonderful vans. And as was said. Sienna is better in some areas and ODY is better in some area.
Sounds like a Honda Dealer getting a little sensative here.
lighten up and give us some counstructive information.