Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

fintail · February 2011

Probably 8-9 years ago :lemon:

I think it might need a valve job now, puffs smoke when hot. But consumption isn't high for an old MB, maybe a quart every 800 miles of city/suburban driving.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

that'd be a good idea, to adjust the valves. If you have a tight intake, you'll get a poor idle.

omarman · February 2011

1971 Datsun 240Z Seller states, "The asking price is $25,000 OBO. The price is listed at the value I think it is worth, and if it does not sell I will KEEP it, as these cars DO go up in value. ALSO, please DO NOT e-mail me telling my car is not worth the listed price. Do not tell me the state of the economy is whatever or the Kelly Blue Book is listed at whatever. This car is a FULL-RESTO mod with NOTHING needed..."

Stance looks all wrong to me. There are probably some very nice examples of this car for maybe half the asking price of this one. Wonder why the seller would invest $50K only to sell it off so soon? :confuse: One thing the seller and I agree with is that if it doesn't sell, well then yes he will keep it. :shades:

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

Well it sounds like quite an exceptional car---more to be valued as a custom than as a stock 240Z.

He might get his price from those rare few who want a customization just like he did (most buyers prefer to do their own customization, as that's half the fun--the hunt, the figurin', the problem-solving).

However, his attitude needs more adjustment than his carburetors, but maybe he's had to contend with people who aren't appreciative of what he's done.

Craigslist is the absolutely wrong place to advertise this car. You spend $50K on a restoration and nothing on an ad? Say WHAT?

texases · February 2011

As much as I dislike his attitude, I like the car. Restored 240z's always seemed neater in concept than reality (limited power), this would adress that easily. But I do wonder about living with 3 carbs, would be a real headache, I'd think.

omarman · February 2011

That's the same kind of thought I had about the engine. Something may have turned out to be difficult to live with - custom induction or other mods. Not every project turns out like that, but the potential is always there for both budget and technical headaches. Usually when someone is willing to take that risk, it's because they want it built-to-suit and it's true that the results may not suit anyone else.

I used to have a bookmarked discussion on another board regarding the build up of a V8 Ford pickup. Just the custom engine build alone was a separate thread which grew over 50 pages and spanned over 2 years! One long-time poster named it the "slobber-knocker" motor thread. The engine turned out to be a really expensive collection of mismatched bits and pieces which failed to meet any expectations of the owner. It made me have greater respect for crate engines.

Not implying that the seller has a "slobber knocker" story under the hood of his car, just pointing out that's a big price to pay for driving under 500 break-in miles on the engine before hitting craigslist. According to the seller, he bought another Z after buying this one a year ago. The "new" one needs work so he's selling this one which was recently custom built. :surprise:

qbrozen · February 2011

Maybe I'm the one reading it wrong, but I don't think he's saying $50k was spent on the restoration. He says $50k is the total of all receipts through its life, including original purchase price. Heck, as far as I can tell, he hasn't even spent $10k, personally. He said most of the work was done by previous owner. He bought the $8k engine and some other stuff.

I would love to know what he purchased the car for back in April.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

I also don't know why he thinks spending $8K on an engine is such a big deal. This sort of thing is quite commonplace.

Yes I think a 3-carb setup with old Mikunis is not going to be such a great thing to live with.

But why on earth he puts this car on Craigslist--Home of the Tire Kicker--is beyond me. This car needs to be marketed in a whole different way.

ab348 · February 2011

Heck, $8K sounds cheap to me. Yesterday I was in my GM dealer getting the oil changed on the Buick and I walked through the showroom. Sitting in there on an egine stand is a GM Performance 427 big-block Chevy V-8. The write-up on it says it was built with the original tooling from the legendary '60-vintage Chevy 427 (somehow I doubt that) and that it was a limited-production item. This one was number 321 of 427, as evidenced by a little plate stuck to it. The price? $27,500 - and they said they'd throw in the engine stand. Criminy...

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

An ordinary Porsche 6 cylinder engine is routinely a $12,000 rebuild, and that's without mods, and a modern Benz V8 could easily be $15K-$20K, and a Ferrari $60,000 no problem.

Gee for $8K he could have put a 400HP fuel injected crate 350 Chevy in there and had enough left over to take the family skiing in Colorado.

tjc78 · February 2011

and a Ferrari $60,000 no problem.

I just can't fathom that. I don't doubt it, but something is just completely wrong there.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

Well if the car cost $1 million (say, an Enzo) then $60K is a fair proportion of value.

Even if it was "only" a 1/4 mil Ferrari, the engine cost of $60K, being 1/4 the cost of the car, is very much in line with most cars today. A $60K Benz would probably cost $15K to do the engine up right, and even a $20K Camry would cost $5K.

Nowadays, on most used modern cars, you lose the engine, the car is pretty much totaled.

andre1969 · February 2011

Nowadays, on most used modern cars, you lose the engine, the car is pretty much totaled.

I wonder if some of the simpler, cruder engines would still be relatively cheap? For instance, if the supercharged 3.8 in my Park Ave bit the dust, would it be worth replacing, or would it total the car?

I remember reading that with my Intrepid, if the 2.7 ever failed, it was actually CHEAPER to force a 3.2 or 3.5 under the hood, because the 2.7 was so expensive! This was several years ago, but I recall reading that you could put a 3.2/3.5 in there for around $4500-5000 for everything. But often a used 2.7 could almost cost that much!

I was sort of fascinated by that idea, and figured if the 2.7 in my Intrepid ever failed, I'd try to go that route. But then the car just got older and worth less and less, to the point that if it ever did fail, probably easier to just go and find one that had the 3.2 or 3.5 from the get-go.

tjc78 · February 2011

Well if the car cost $1 million (say, an Enzo) then $60K is a fair proportion of value

I wasn't thinking along those lines. It makes a little more sense that way.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

Well as much as paying 1 million bucks for a car or spending $50K on a Datsun 240Z "makes sense" :P

lemko · February 2011

For instance, if the supercharged 3.8 in my Park Ave bit the dust, would it be worth replacing, or would it total the car?

Just buy a Chevy 350 crate motor, saw off the last bank of cylinders, and put it in sideways! :P

andre1969 · February 2011

Just buy a Chevy 350 crate motor, saw off the last bank of cylinders, and put it in sideways!

I'd imagine with some doing, you could get the whole 350 in there! After all, Cadillac figured out how to stick a V-8 in sideways way back in 1985.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2011

Well figure maybe $2500 for the engine short block, then you have to do the heads, etc. re-assemble everything and install, so maybe....what...another 15 hours labor + cost of the heads rebuilt....so at $100 an hour + say $400 for the head work---so you're lookin' at maybe $4K--$5K.

omarman · March 2011

From just the pic gallery, I like the gold one better but who knows what kind of shape the fiberglass in in or what rust may lie underneath. The auction page seems to imply that both garage-find Corvettes are being offered incomplete - or at least their engines and other parts are listed under a separate auto parts heading. I wonder how many "lots" you have to win to get all the pieces to just one Corvette?

Mr_Shiftright · March 2011

Corvette fiberglass is usually pretty good unless someone has repaired it badly or it has been stored in very poor conditions.

Rust is an issue with Corvette which many people overlook because they think "fiberglass"---but of course the frame is not fiberglass.

omarman · March 2011

Really like the gold one up for auction and found a comp for sale online, but with no price listed. Something special about the first "Sting Ray" vettes. Nice color combo too.

Even if the auction vette can't be restored to a show quality piece (money wise) it would be nice to bring it back to driver condition and just drive it. With a small block engine and refurbished brakes and suspension it would still probably be a safe and fun cruiser fit for dodging the modern traffic mix out there. Think it still had drum brakes in '63 though.

qbrozen · March 2011

An E30 with 4 doors, cloth seats, auto trans, and low miles.

I would never have thought such a vehicle existed.

srs_49 · March 2011

Well, it is nicer looking than my '87 E30 :shades: !

stickguy · March 2011

If it just had a manual tranny, I would buy it!

Back when they still made "real" BMWs, and not 2-ton plus overly technologied luxo barges.

no HPFP to blow up on this baby!

oregonboy · March 2011

HPFP?

"Acronym Finder" comes up with:

High Pressure Fuel Pump
Homeless Peoples Federation of the Philippines
High Pressure Fire Protection
High-Performance Fragmentation Projectile

The first one seems the only likely answer, but I kinda like the last one. :shades:

stickguy · March 2011

not sure about on the BMW, but on the VW diesel at least the 1st one often becomes the last one!

stevedebi · March 2011

"An E30 with 4 doors, cloth seats, auto trans, and low miles.

I would never have thought such a vehicle existed. "

Clever. The description says "two doors". I guess those rear door handles must be a cosmetic stick-on...

gsemike · March 2011

I didn't know what to make of this I don't know a thing about Ferraris, but this has to be worth 10 grand, right?

I liked this too

Decent clone driver

This has been for sale since last year Looks good in the pics

texases · March 2011

Even if that 308's as advertised, I'd have problem with an 'exotic' that would be spanked by an Accord, destroyed by a Mazdaspeed3. And cost big$$ to maintain.

As for the Cutlass, does it have A/C? Looks like it has the evaporator, but no compressor.

stickguy · March 2011

I like that Z-28 too. All the upgrades are a little worrisome, depending on how well they were done, and how they work together.

One thing that I wonder is if they left the cat system when they put in the older engine. Probably kind of hard to pass emissions without that!

andre1969 · March 2011

One thing that I wonder is if they left the cat system when they put in the older engine. Probably kind of hard to pass emissions without that!

Depending on how the classic car laws are up your way, you might not have to worry about catalytic converters. In Maryland, for example, once the car hits 20 calendar years old, you can get historic tags for it, and no longer have to go through the emissions test. The catch is that you're not supposed to drive it every day, but they don't really enforce it.

For regular-tagged cars, they emissions-test everything from 1977 onward, but it varies by county. The more populated counties tend to have emissions testing, while the more rural ones often don't. I guess if you had to get the car inspected though (different from an emissions test) they might catch it if it didn't have a catalytic converter.

qbrozen · March 2011

I like this quote on the 442: "the previous owner used it on the track just to give you an idea how it runs"

really? What idea would that be? I've seen Honda Fits and Scions run at the track.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2011

It's illegal to remove a catalytic converter no matter how old the car is but it's pretty easy to get away with it in states without emissions testing. Even if they do catch you with it off, most states won't even fine you (California might).

Personally I don't see why someone who removed a cat from an older catalytic car thinks he doesn't have to comply, while the rest of us do. :mad:

srs_49 · March 2011

In Maryland, for example, once the car hits 20 calendar years old, you can get historic tags for it, and no longer have to go through the emissions test.

Right. But I still think it's illegal to remove a cat from a vehicle that was equipped with one from the factory. Federal offense???

andre1969 · March 2011

Right. But I still think it's illegal to remove a cat from a vehicle that was equipped with one from the factory. Federal offense???

Yeah, still illegal I'm sure, but I doubt if the Feds put any effort into pursuing the matter. In Maryland at least, there's also a "Street Rod" tag, which to qualify the vehicle must be 25 years old or older and must have been substantially altered from the manufacturer's original design. I wonder if you'd legally be able to remove the converter if you had Street Rod tags?

Mr_Shiftright · March 2011

If it's not an off-road vehicle then it would be illegal.

andre1969 · March 2011

What about some of those custom jobs, like the PT Cruisers with 426 Hemis or the Focuses with 351W's under the hood? Do they still have catalytic converters on them?

There's an '85 or so Dodge Daytona that shows up at the Mopar show in Carlisle every year. It's been converted to RWD, and has a Mopar smallblock under the hood. If it's there again this year, I'm kinda curious to look up under it and see if it has catalytic converters.

Mr_Shiftright · March 2011

There's really no need to take them off, especially modern cars. I mean, if a Corvette can go 180 mph with two of them on, I don't see why anyone would remove them.

Perhaps they like the noise factor, I dunno.

I do know that no repair shop in their right minds would remove one.

andre1969 · March 2011

Perhaps they like the noise factor, I dunno.

Funny thing about the noise factor, I guess it must vary from car to car. The muffler fell off my '79 5th Ave years ago. Still has the catalytic converter though. I should get it fixed, but don't drive it much, so I never bothered with it. It sounds a LOT more powerful, almost evil, without the muffler on it. I've had people ask me if I had a Hemi or big-block under the hood!

But when the muffler fell off my '85 Silverado, the difference in sound, and noise level, was hardly any different. I got the Silverado fixed, as it still had to go through emissions at the time. Now the Silverado did sound pretty loud when the plug fell out of the bottom of the catalytic converter! And yes, I got that fixed! :P

lemko · March 2011

Funny. I remember years ago when my Dad lost the muffler on his 1970 Ford Torino. The car only had a 302 V-8, but the lack of a muffler made it sound like it had something more substantial. I remember him amusing my friends by gunning the car's engine making them think he hot-rodded the Torino or something.

qbrozen · March 2011

So I'm just pondering something today ... OK, it is something I've thought about for a little while. A 5th car in the form of a modern classic type luxo large sedan. I'd like it to be '91 or earlier to use classic insurance.

So, Fin, what can you tell me about the W126? What model would be the one to get?

I was going to consider the 7 series, but I don't care for the E32, which would leave me the E23 and, specifically, the relatively underpowered 733.

What else would anyone suggest I consider?

fintail · March 2011

I'd recommend a 1988+ 300SE/SEL - not the most powerful, and mileage gains over the V8 aren't gigantic, but they can be a lot easier to maintain. If not that, maybe a 300SD/SDL (but no 350 diesel models). The V8s can be maintenance intensive and thirsty, and the 350 series diesels are troublesome.

qbrozen · March 2011

ehhh... I was afraid of that. If 6-cyl is the only logical choice, then I'll have to scratch it from the list. I MAY have to go newer and pay full insurance. I'd really rather not, though.

An LS400, however, might make a compelling argument. Wonder how tough it would be to find a nice '89-'91.

fintail · March 2011

I'd keep away from V8s just for their consumption (560SEL gets markedly worse mileage than my E55) , but if you don't mind that, one which has been taken care of might not be bad. Just have to be sure it has been maintained by the book.

I think no LS should actually be registered as an 89, but in my gentle climate area anyway, nice early models are out there. Or wait a year and go for an SC too.

qbrozen · March 2011

A lexus SC? no, gotta be sedan.
yeah, '90, apparently. Just found that out. Came out mid-'89, but as '90 model.

fintail · March 2011

Yeah, that's right on the Lexus.

None of these vehicles should be terribly expensive anyway - 5K should be able to buy an excellent example, and a usable one for somewhat less.

qbrozen · March 2011

another option in the back of my mind is to find a municpal auction this summer and pick up a Crown Vic. Again, no classic insurance, but the entry price should make up for that.

fintail · March 2011

Find an old undercover/unmarked car that might have just dawdled around in detective duty,and it could be fun - cop motor, cop brakes, etc :shades:

stickguy · March 2011

you are going off the deep end dude!

I actually know someone with just the car you want. It is IIRC a 1990 (maybe 91), with low miles. Was his fathers car (original owner) and he took it for his son to drive (HS) when the dad no longer needed it. Very low miles I think (60K maybe, either that or 180K!) In any case, very good shape. he did have to put a new steering rack in, but other than that, a reliable tank.

He isn't selling it though. Just saying they are out there!

For what you want, just talk to Andre. maybe he will let you take on one of his fleet of late 70s Chryslers? A nice 5th avenue to bring up the property values in your neighborhood?

Mr_Shiftright · March 2011

BMW 735 is a nice driving sedan, and a good car to boot.

Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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