Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

xwesx · February 2006

I've also driven cars without brakes though (don't worry, NOT for any long length of time...maybe 10 miles, tops) so maybe that's why it doesn't bother me so much.

I did a 1,200 mile stint in my '69 Econoline back in summer of '96 when I was driving it back up to Alaska. The brakes weren't completely gone, but the fronts were out and the master cylinder was fading fast..... :surprise:

The thing is, that old van is such a bear to stop when it is working properly that I did not have too much of a problem handling it with little-to-no brakes once I was prepared for the change. The first brake application with no/little response was quite the shocker though!

fintail · February 2006

This old beast doesn't look too awful

xwesx · February 2006

Note: last time I drove it the speedometer was acting up and I think the odometer isn't turning, but it hasn't been driven since. If I take it to get fixed they'll reset the odometer to 0, thus taking away lots of the appeal of this vehicle. I'll leave it to the buyer to decide how to handle this.

Someone please explain this to me..... I would think that a new speedo cable would fix this problem. :confuse:

ubbermotor · February 2006

There isn't that much of a difference between a '65 and '75 Dart, is there?

They were same basic platform, however;

Wheelbase increased in 1967 to 110 inches (except the demon coupe used plymouths 108)

Change in in torque-converter/pressure-plate in 68 made before/after engine swaps needed a transmission as well (or a more creatative move).

70 and older models used a smaller bolt pattern with left hand lub nuts on one side.

andre1969 · February 2006

The Dart/Valiant went through a redesign in 1967, but I'm not sure how advanced it was, technologically. The '63 really wasn't designed to handle a V-8, although it was modified to get the smallblock 273 wedge shoehorned in for '64. The '67-76, however, was designed to take a smallblock wedge with ease, and even a big-block or Hemi. I know from experience that the engine bay of the Dart is roomier than the Aspen/Volare/Diplomat/et al that replaced it.

Both the '63-66 Dart and the '67-76 Dart rode a 111" wheelbase. The Valiant was on a 106" wb from '63-66 though, and went to 108" for 67-69. From then it got tricky. In 1970, the Duster replaced the upright 2-door sedan, and stayed on the 108" wb with the sedan. Dodge got a version of the Duster, called the Demon, and in exchange the Valiant got a version of the hardtop, called the Scamp, on a 111" wheelbase. The 2-door sedan was dropped from the Dart lineup after 1968, replaced by a low-line hardtop.

Originally, the Dart was billed as a "senior" compact, a step up from the Valiant. This was the way to go in the early 60's, as a Tempest/Special/F-85 was a step up from a Corvair or Chevy II, and a Comet was supposed to be a step up from a Falcon. By the 70's nobody cared though about a larger, "step up" compact, so for 1974 they finally put the Valiant sedan on the longer 111" Dart wheelbase.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I've heard some people (mainly fanboys though) say that the '63-66 models were better built than the '67-76 models. Seems like some of the nicer versions of the '63-66 models were more colorful than later models, but I dunno about nicer. My '68 Dart originally had a 2-tone interior with white vinyl burgundy everything else, which I'm sure was very classy in its day. Alas, by the time I got ahold of it, it was 24 years old and had 253,000 miles on it. And, well, you know how white tends to hold up over the years... :sick:

qbrozen · February 2006

here's something you don't see for sale every day.
http://newjersey.craigslist.org/car/133855991.html

xwesx · February 2006

Oh, now that is just awesome. :surprise:

fintail · February 2006

Money pit, freakshow, survivor...I don't know...all of the above maybe

lilengineerboy · February 2006

I have a few of those GTV-6s on my watched list on eBay. That little 6 cylinder rocks. Of course, I also have Pinnifarina Azuras and Spider 2000s on there, so maybe I'm just a glutton or something.
The DeDion (I think thats spelled right) rear suspension makesthe GTVs lively if a little bit of a handful at the limit.

fintail · February 2006

LOL I think Italian cars can be a disease.

Looks like an excellent example, but that price is double what I would expect

Miles are high, and it's a Euro model. I like those bumpers and lights. It probably has other cool features too.

qbrozen · February 2006

you get all the cool cars to look at, fin.
I guess its a good thing I don't live there. My wife would divorce me.

I like both the GTV and Nova. Especially the GTV. One thing confusing me is that he lists it for $4200 on craigslist, but, with a bid of over $4500, the Ebay reserve is not met ...???

stickguy · February 2006

I like the Alfa. What the heck, it's only money!

The Nova has to be about the most boring old car imaginable. At least if it was a 2 door, it would be a worthwhile hot rod candidate.

I guess it costs so much because it has the protecto-o-plate! Everyone knows the Hemi Cudas and 6 cyl Nova wagons are the 2 most faked collectibles.

andre1969 · February 2006

in the "Grand Theft Auto" video games that looks like a dead-ringer for that Nova wagon. It's the second suckiest car to steal in the video game, so don't jack one if you're on the lamb! It's also easy to flip over. What's the suckiest? This little 2-door thing that looks kinda like an early 80's K-car! :P

Seriously though, I actually like that Nova. But just not at that price. And yeah, it does seem like Seattle has a lot of cooler stuff on Craigslist than the DC area. Whassupwitdat?

qbrozen · February 2006

LOL!

actually, the crappiest when you are on the run is the bicycle .... but that's in GTA: San Andreas, IIRC.

stickguy · February 2006

must be the weather. Any place that doesn't see salt on the roads gives the good stuff a chance to survive.

I have family (inlaws) in central NY state (past Albany). I am still amazed at how many older american (and japanese) cars you see with massive rust. Up the trunk, around the windows, just terrible stuff. A bad combo of cheap cars, poor people that don't maintain (or wash them) it seems, and 3 months of road salt without much opportunity to wash it off.

Guess not too many people up there can afford the drive-through heated car wash!

lemko · February 2006

Hate to ask and am afraid of the answer, but, where does the "Fifth Avenue" in that game rank?

andre1969 · February 2006

Lemko, the "Fifth Avenue" is a fairly solid "middle-of-the-road" type of car. Fairly stable handling, and keeps relatively good control when the police, rival gang members, etc try to batter you into submission. A little heavy around corners, and a little slow to accelerate, but decent top speed. Can also take a decent amount of gunfire before it explodes, too. And relatively hard to flip. Now I've heard other people rag on the car, partly because you get forced to do some missions in it (in the game, your older brother has this type of car) but I've never had a problem with it.

If you're interested, here's a page that shows pics of all the cars in the game. http://www.gta-source.com/sa/vehicles.php Strange thing is, I've had the game ever since it came out in late 2004, and I STILL don't think I've seen all the cars that are in it! For instance, there's one that looks a bit like a '70-72 Monte Carlo, but with just a hint of '60's Riviera in it, that I only started seeing just recently. And this thing that looks kinda like a '92 Civic hatchback, I've seen it on the X-box version, but not the Playstation version.

qbrozen · February 2006

Oh, yer killin me! LOL
now i feel like i need to start playing again just to find the bulldozer!

andre1969 · February 2006

I think sometimes you can find the bulldozer in that junkyard by the river, near the base of Mount Chiliad. IIRC there's also a cement truck and a beat-up Glendale or two (the car that looks like a cross between a '61 Dodge and a '57 or so Oldsmobile). Uh-oh, is that a sign that I've wasted too much of my life with this danged game?

british_rover · February 2006

Yeah could be. I never got into the GTA games like that but have gotten into others with the same gusto.

andre1969 · February 2006

but has anyone ever heard of a 1976 LeMans GT? Considering how much I love these cars, you'd think I'd know the answer to that, but I don't! Reading through the description, it sounds like it originally had a 350, but that was yanked and an earlier, pre-smog 400 was put under the hood.

I'm wondering if this was a real model offered for the LeMans, or if it was just something thrown together by someone that got pissed that the GTO and then the Grand Am were offed by '76?

martian · February 2006

Anyone recall that fairly hucksterish business from the '70s (ZIEBART), that proported to rust-proof your car? It was pretty expensive, and I think CONSUMERS REPORTS tested it-they actually found that the "ziebarted' car rusted FASTER than the untouched car! I had a boss who had his FIAT (now theres a piece of pre-rusted junk) subjected to this fraud-they doofusses who did the job drilled holes all over the body-and injected this viscous, gooey wax-based crap into the holes! They got a lot of it on the exhaust system, and his cur stank horribly for weeks 9till the stuff burned off). What happend to the Ziebart co.-were they sued out of existance? :confuse:

Mr_Shiftright · February 2006

Alive and well!

http://www.ziebart.com/

You could buy a franchise!

martian · February 2006

Thanks Shifty-though I note that they (Ziebart) basically just detail cars now-that is certainly a legitimate business. On the subject of rust..why is it that you will sometimes come across a pristine 50's car in some out-of-the way place,, pristine except for surface rust-you know, where the paint is still on, but the paint has been stained a nice shade of rust orange? I saw a 1948 packard like this-otherise, the body was perfect. can surface rust be stopped, or is it a sign of the sure demise of the car?

lemko · February 2006

...called "Rusty Jones." The commercials used to go, "Hello, Rusty Jones! Goodbye rusty cars!"

xwesx · February 2006

I can provide no resolution to your question, Andre, but that certainly is a big chunk of iron under the hood! :surprise:

xwesx · February 2006

Its services include professional detailing; paint and fabric protection; rust protection; window tint; electronic systems; and an array of other accessories, particularly for trucks, such as bedliners and running boards.

Mr_Shiftright · February 2006

The only sure way to stop surface rust is to dunk the entire car for openers, or as much as you can hot tank. The rest you can treat chemically and cross your fingers but...rust is essentially not 'surface' at all...even if you sand blast, which is not recommended, you very often just "peen over" the rust holes.

It's a real task making sure that rust doesn't come back, and a risk, too.

fintail · February 2006

Yeah, the weather here is pretty mild, and cars survive better. Not that they don't rust, it just takes longer. A lot of 80s stuff is just starting to leave the roads now. The Datsun 510 I experienced in the mid 90s was almost completely rust-free, and my fintail has been in the area since 1976 (from CA), so it is almost rust free too, And if you go to eastern WA, it is even better...the little town where my dad lives is loaded with old metal, and rust is rare. The $100 Datsun 610 he bought last year is amazingly straight and clean. My dad had quite a few older cars in the early 90s especially, and the real only rust problem was in a 60 Ford with rusty front floors. Everything else was solid.

british_rover · February 2006

I have lived in South Carolina, Virgnia and now Conneticut so just all rusty, rusty, rusty states.

fintail · February 2006

One for Andre

Here's an oddball you don't see every day

If you want an evil looking car, here's one for you

british_rover · February 2006

That Peugot had some kind of funky sliding rear axel right? I thought I remebered reading that the rear axel/suspension design was very bizare.

gsemike · February 2006

The only power option on the LeMans is power seat? Some of those old cars were optioned out really weird. Back in 73, power seat was pretty hard to come by unless you were in a luxury brand. For that car to have that but no windows or locks has to be unusual. I once had a 72 LeSebre with power locks and nothing else.

The Lincoln could be decent but the paint looks so cheapo even in the pics. A low quality black paint job is never worth doing.

andre1969 · February 2006

that '74 LeMans is just a base, bottom of the heap model. It's not a Luxury LeMans, which was renamed Grand LeMans for 1975. The power seat is a real oddity on that car, but actually, even the tilt wheel and cruise control must've been really rare on something in that price class back then.

As for the rear window defogger, I wonder if it has the wires in the rear window, or if it just has a blower?

My '76 Grand LeMans has a power seat and power windows, and tilt, but no power locks and no cruise. I wish it did have power locks, though, as it's really a stretch to reach across to the passenger-side door. While these were considered intermediates, it's probably wider inside, up front at least, than most of what passes for full-sized cars these days!

I kinda like that '74. If it were closer I'd definitely give it a second look.

That Lincoln also isn't bad looking for $1200, especially considering it has the 460. A lot of these were stuck with 400's that only put out around 166 horsepower, and naturally, when you wrap roughly 4600 pounds of car around that, it's going to struggle. The 460 had something like 217 hp though, and a lot more torque, so these things could actually move with some dignity. Heck, my buddy with the twin '78 Diamond Jubilees has scared the hell out of me on several occasions when he drives them!

andre1969 · February 2006

heck, I guess I've been pretty deprived. I didn't even have a car with a power seat until 1995, when my uncle sold my wife and me his '88 LeBaron turbo coupe. Almost a slap in the face, considering some of the "real" cars I've had over the years, that the most optioned-up would be a dreaded K-car! :P

Since then though, I've had a few power seat cars. My Grandma's '85 LeSabre, which she gave me in 1999, had a power driver's seat and, oddly, a power recline on the otherwise manual passenger seat. My '79 NYer has a power driver's seat. And the LeMans has a power bench seat.

One thing that's kinda strange is back then, they had several different types of power seats. The most common kind, I think, was the "6-way", where you had a little joystick control flanked by an up/down switch on either side. However, there was a "4-way", which only had the little joystick. I remember seeing a 1978 or so Olds 98 coupe at Carlisle one year that had the 4-way. Honestly, how much money did GM save by offering two different types of power assist? :confuse:

imidazol97 · February 2006

I always viewed power seats as something else automated to go bad! But the 4-way vs 6-way vs 8-way probably saved some structural strength cost along with the motors.

First had power seats on 93 LeSabre. Luckily none have ever broken on me. Good GM dependability. Go tell CR that power seats lasted 150K on LeSabre.

andre1969 · February 2006

The power seat in my '79 NYer is getting weak. The up/down function on the joystick and the two flanking switches are still fine, but to move the seat forward and back, I have to help it along with my legs!

The power seat in the LeMans also seems a bit inconsistent. Some days it moves just fine, but others it seems a bit slow. Also seems kinda loud, but maybe that's just how they were back then?

Now the power seat in my Grandma's '85 LeSabre still worked great, right up until the day we got rid of that car in 2002!

Our LeBaron was dead by 1997 or so, so the power seat in that car never got a chance to stand the test of time. I'd thought about pulling them out and putting them in my Dart, but that would've looked weird...a white car with a burgundy/black interior, and light brown front buckets!

imidazol97 · February 2006

> '79 NYer is getting weak.

Have you tried cleaning the seat track to reduce friction and oiling the thing?

andre1969 · February 2006

I didn't even think of that. Might be a good idea to do, and try to prolong its life. If the thing ever failed completely, I think an M-body power seat (like out of a mid-80's Fifth Ave) would swap in, but it's not like these things are exactly littering the junkyards anymore.

I'm the only one that drives the car, so I'm usually not messing with the fore-aft position. Depending on how my back and body feels though, sometimes I'll still play around with the up/down and tilt adjustments.

imidazol97 · February 2006

I'm thinking about getting under my 98 to see if the track is gunked up with lint and crud. I did that on 93. I also used lithium grease or a spray lube (not WD40) or some kind. Just figured it made life easier if it didn't have the extra friction. Have you every looked under your seat (the car I mean)? It's nasty.

lemko · February 2006

...I had with a power seat was my 1979 Buick Park Avenue. The first car my girlfriend had with a power seat is her 2005 Buick LaCrosse! The 1 & 2 position memory seat is an excellent feature as my girlfriend is short and petite and I'm tall and hefty. If I accidentally hit her position, I'd be crushed against the steering wheel! She has the rearview mirror positioned so that if I were driving the car, I'd have to look for vehicles coming out of the ground.

fintail · February 2006

On the old 85 Tempo my parents had when I was a kid, the power seat motor shorted out when I was driving. I was just normally driving down a city street, and smoke started pouring out from under the seat! Very uncool. I was still living at home then and the car had been relegated to being a high school car for my sister, so I just found a nearly identical junkyard seat + assembly and fixed it myself.

fintail · February 2006

Grey market car, right?

lilengineerboy · February 2006

Not necessarily, the 930 came to the states in 75-77 or 78 and then disappeared until the mid-80s, IIRC. Those were a little challenging to drive up through the 90s models. A somewhat benign mistake in a different car would produce a spin in the 930s. While cutting edge for the time, the turbo was basically a lagging power switch. The turbo would lag off the line, then be something of a handful once they started making boost.

fintail · February 2006

This looks like a nice enough old boat...last of the breed

andre1969 · February 2006

that '90 LeSabre almost makes me wish I was in the market for a station wagon! There's just something about that style that had a smooth sort of handsomeness about it. Those awkward '91-96 rolling suppository B-wagons just weren't as classy.

Kinda interesting that the LeSabre actually seems to be wearing an '80-84 Electra grille. As I recall, for a while in the 80's, there was both a LeSabre and Electra wagon. The Electra was still on the shorter B-wheelbase of 116", whereas an Electra/98 were on the 119" wb, but it had the Electra grille, ventiport trim on the fenders, and nicer interior. Also, I don't think that's the top trim level. It looks nice, but the seats aren't as plush as what was in my Grandma's '85 LeSabre.

Still, I'd take it if I needed another car, and it were closer. I wonder if that AL Hubcaps dude, the one with the '86 Parisienne Safari, is still around?

fintail · February 2006

I am almost ashamed to say that I don't mind that old barge either. Back in the day, ca. 1988 an aunt of mine had one of those...it was a pleasing blue, and it was very loaded - leather I think, it had some kind of alloy/mag wheels, etc. It seemed very posh. Those do look better than the bloated things that replaced it, too. For a domestic of the period, there's almost an elegance there.

Who needs an SUV with one of those old land yachts?

fintail · February 2006

Disco mobile

I am sure someone lowrider or 80s GM lover will want this

andre1969 · February 2006

did they really start offering ABS on those older B-bodies towards the end of their run? If so, I wonder how hard it would be to retrofit that stuff onto an older B-body? Or heck, underneath there really isn't a whole lot of difference between one of those and my '76 LeMans, so I wonder if it could be retrofitted that far back?

I like that '85 Cutlass Salon, although I'd put the Olds Rallyes back on, as Mother Nature intended. I dunno how rare it is, though...they made like 15,000 of them that year. Now if it was a 4-4-2, which they only mad around 3500 I'd say it's rare.

fintail · February 2006

I don't think that old barge has ABS...the description also says it has FWD, IIRC. Just a careless seller. However, I think a conversion would be possible on most cars, for the right amount of money. I don't think it would be cheap.

When did GM start in with ABS in a big way, maybe ca. 1992? I remember all the "ABS" badged Cavs and Corsicas you'd see.

The friend of mine who is a Monte nut has an 83 Monte CL with wheels from an 81 Camaro on it. It doesn't look half bad, mainly because the car is grey and the wheels are similar.

Not a bad looking old driver

Or if you need a 4 wheeled aircraft carrier. Same seller as that wagon....they often have oddball stuff (in the background I spot a Dart/Valiant along with a Merkur and a 5 door Camry)

Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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