Dealers Too Busy For OnLine Shoppers

isellhondas · December 2006

I'm surprised your post didn't get deleted.

Yes, I should have said **some** people.

I just continue to be amazed at the measures SOME people will go to in their creative ways to save a few dollars.

We all go through life with different agendas I suppose.

And..." life is too short to be little"

audia8q · December 2006

craig...I bet you never realized that your successful sales methods were so wrong...Of course it takes people who have never sold a car to point it out. :P

abraindrainer · December 2006

Personally, I do not believe that There is no limit to what stealerships will do in a frantic attempt to squeeze a buck! is a fair statement about ALL dealerships. However, it do actually believe it is true about way too many.

In a recent search, I have encountered these tactics: (1) excessive doc fees ($200-500), (2) double charging for destination, (3)charging wrong destination fee, (4) mis-representing current incentives, (5) overcharging for options, (6) making up charges for financing/advertizing (7) making up charges other dealers will charge, (8) promising in writing to match any national pricing then backing out, (9) charging "extra" for out of state registration, (10) lying about their stock and the stock of their competition and/or the sibling dealership inventory, (11) charging for free "care" packages, (12) intentionally avoiding anwers to pertinent questions like milage on the particular unit, (13) misrepresenting what is normal milage on a new vehicle in their stock, (14) telling me that an appearance at a dealership is going to "help" me to negotiate, (15) use some funny mathematics that always seem to come out in their favor, etc.

I just continue to be amazed at the measures "SOME" businesses will go to in their creative ways to squeeze a few dollars.

What amazes me is the extent to which many dealership fail to understand the purpose and the advantages of the internet. For example, I can now get pricing from 30-40 dealerships and that would explain the low closing rates you are experiencing. It is not about "relationships" for many buyers, it is about the money which is what it has been for the dealerships for many decades. Dealers have made this bed and now they do not want to sleep in it? The Internet has just enabled the buyers to turn the tables on the sellers. Many "in-dealership" processes were designed to waste/steal consumer time and to wear them down and now they are offended when the opposing side can do the same?

I highly recommend trying home delivery for the next automobile purchase and never stepping into the dealership besides a test drive.

imidazol97 · December 2006

>I highly recommend trying home delivery for the next automobile purchase and never stepping into the dealership besides a test drive.

A business started in this area bringing cars to you for test driving--for those too busy to waste time on the dealer's lot.

bobst · December 2006

You can add 16) Charging for an 'option' that is actually standard equipment.

That was what I saw at one dealer when I was looking at Hondas a couple years ago.

isellhondas · December 2006

Was that post for me?

If so, I don't have a low closing rate. You must be thinking of someone else?

There are dealers and customers alike who resort to shady tactics. I have seen the worst from both sides.

abraindrainer · December 2006

Sorry, Bobst, I did not list that one but you are right that I saw something similar in my case: they called it an option but it was actually standard equipment. I simply assumed that it was caused by ignorance and it was not malicious...

Kirstie_H · December 2006

Neither of which is excusable, really.

Let's everyone please check posts to ensure that ALL personal comments are removed before we have to get all "grinch" on this discussion.

abraindrainer · December 2006

I don't have a low closing rate. You complained about customers taking your quote and taking it elsewhere?

I am sure (everyones) current closing rates on internet quotes is much lower than walkups (past and/or present) because no sane person will do 30-40 walkups but many will send that many emails... in a few minutes... Other online business models also have relatively low closing rates: 1-3%!

isellhondas · December 2006

Nothing whatever to do with closing ratios.

That's OK since I'm usually the guy they check with last after shopping themselves into a stupor.

abraindrainer · December 2006

Isell: the low ratios have a lot to do with the fact that buyers can now effectively shop at far more places at a fraction of the old cost. If we spend X hours under the old set up visiting a few dealerships at 2 hours per a visit... Now I can visit 50 dealerships across the country without leaving my desk and by only spending couple of hours of my time. I still buy one car but 50 people have to answer my emails!

The truth: markets are typically only price efficient, they are often transactionally inefficient!

The only tragedy is the most buyers are still unaware :confuse: that one can buy a vehicle in any state and ship it to your home for a few hundred bucks but the regional disparities in pricing are often far greater then the cost of shipping the vehicle across the country. :shades:

isellhondas · December 2006

Dealers don't have to answer your emails.

If you send a "blast fax" to 50 dealers, most won't bother responding.

And, once again, my close ratios are protty high considering all of the flaky ones that come through!

abraindrainer · December 2006

ISell, I think you are taking my comments too personally. I am just trying point out that online buying is far different for buyers and sellers and that many sellers have not understood and adjusted to the new realities. I have tried email all bunch of the dealers and most but not all actually respond because it is much easier/cheaper/quicker than the fax.

With-holding price information basically guarantees that this buyer will go elsewhere. Now, you could be great at telling duds from cherries from a 2 line email but I suspect that is pretty hard to differentiate them at the margin.

isellhondas · December 2006

Either in these forums or face to face with a customer.

Unlike yourself, I live with this everyday and I just tell it like it is in these forums.

Unless a person is simply too stubborn to pick up a telephone I can usually win them over.

jipster · December 2006

Unless a person is simply too stubborn to pick up a telephone...

If someone e-mailed you indicating they had been on the lot earlier in the day, and gave you all the necessary information on a vehicle they wanted to buy that was on the dealership lot...down to the VIN and model #'s, would you send them a price quote? According to your previous posts you wouldn't. You'd still want them to telephone you. So, the being "stubborn" part can be seen working both ways.

I can see a salesperson calling an internet lead or writing an e-mail saying "give me a call" if the information is to vague or incomplete. But, I have yet to read a valid response as to why a price quote cannot be given when all of the information is provided.(shopping the price is not a valid reason in my book)

isellhondas · December 2006

Just the way we do things and it's working quite well.

If it's a used car, I'll give them a price in writing just like the used car prices are posted on our website.

oldfarmer50 · December 2006

See msgs. 404-407

bobst · December 2006

"I have yet to read a valid response as to why a price quote cannot be given when all of the information is provided.(shopping the price is not a valid reason in my book)"

Jip, you ask "why".

Well, I guess they don't want to give a price quote. As for as I am concerned, that's all there is to it.

abraindrainer · December 2006

I can give you pretty a basic reason: they do not want to compete on price and getting things in writing exposes the seller to more disadvantages than advantages. Or that is what they think! It is the same reason that most do not want talk turkey before a test drive. Price is the last thing on which a seller wants to focus, they want to waste as much of your time on other stuff.

I recently had one say: this is my online price but I cannot say how far the "manager" will go once you are here... then I can beat your purchase order price... ok, can you go down another $2k, given the pdf snapshot of a price elsewhere... No away! Goodluck getting that price over there...

jipster · December 2006

That was a situation where someone e-mails the dealership making an offer on a vehicle. It's suppose to work the other way around.

jipster · December 2006

Well, I guess they don't want to give a price quote.

It doesn't take Jethro Boedean, and his 5th grade edumacation, to figure that one out bobst. I could care less if dealerships give quotes or not. But, the fact that they heavily advertise "quick" "free quotes", and more importantly the fact that under "contact preference" there is a category that indicates "e-mail", is where the problem is.

bobst · December 2006

Personally, I don't see the problem.

People act like they want to. I accept their actions and learn to deal with it.

I don't expect much from people. I don't expect their actions to correspond to their words.

prosource1 · December 2006

Here are the Ploys of Dealers and their Puppets (Salespeople) with On-line Shoppers:

1. Low-ball numbers to get you in to the store to sell you hard for their profit.

2. Offering you a great # for your trade and then pulling it back when you arrive.

I dealt with Clinton Honda (NY) and they offered me a great price and ball-park # for my trade, but upon arrival, after a 45 minute drive, they pulled it back and offered me $5,000 less than what my vehicle was worth. I guess they figured if I drove all that way, if they could keep me there for over an hour on the trade #, they would be able to sell me. But having sold before, I am aware of the ploys to try to 'slow down the buyer', keep them on the lot as long as possible or simply saying anything on the phone to get the buyer in to sell them. Remember, they can't make the profit they want, and there are a ton of ways from the new car to the trade to a number of other ways. Just remember when that dealer who is far away gives you a number and you have a trade that they the # may be suspect and don't believe anything they tell you on a trade.

Oh and avoid Clinton Honda in NJ. They were deceptive, dishonest, arrogant and should be avoided.

imidazol97 · December 2006

> offered me $5,000 less than what my vehicle was worth.

I said long ago that the way many people get taken in a deal is on the value of their tradein. I realize you're including the tactics they're using as well as the value of the tradein in your post. But the cleanest way to handle a new car purchase is to sell your car straight out to an individual or Car Nation, etc.

drewba · December 2006

Sales tax credit on a trade-in muddies the water somewhat. With a 8.8% sales tax rate where I live, you can be talking about a pretty significant tax credit that would be missed by not trading in your old car. In other words, I agree that if your trade-in is old and not worth much, you should sell it yourself. But if your trade-in is newer, the decision is not as clear cut.

jipster · December 2006

I don't expect much from people. I don't expect their actions to correspond to their words.

When it comes to buying cars, I would certainly agree with that attitude. But, as an amateur consumer advocate, it's somewhat disturbing that free internet "e-mail" quote is advertised, but not delivered. To me that's false advertising, and it's not being honest with the public.

abraindrainer · December 2006

The problem is that the Internet is too often used to drive those leads into the old forum and into the dealership "turf". Bringing customers into the dealership increases their transactional cost/effort thus increasing the final purchase price....

isellhondas · December 2006

Are you in the Seattle area? If so, it's actually 9.1% on all new and used cars. This can make trading in a car the smart thing to do because of the sales tax savings.

cccompson · December 2006

Wow - 9.1% sales tax! That might be the highest in the U.S.

isellhondas · December 2006

8.8% on everything except cars. 9.1% on cars.

No state income tax though.

wlbrown9 · December 2006

Nope... 9.25% in Memphis. Pretty much everything including cars. Just looked up the details for single item sales such as vehicles. 7% State sales tax applies to complete sale. Local option (city and county optional add on tax is 2.25%) applies on first $1600 of sale. From $1601-$3200 of sales is taxed with an additional State sales tax of 2.75%.

It also notes the single item limits are applied to tangible personal property, so an extended warranty is not tangible and would bear the full tax rate even if over $1600.

So we do get a little break of single large tangible items...it even notes in the example that you would be taxed on rebates, though I thought in the past that the calculations had excluded that.

jlawrence01 · December 2006

I think in Teneessee it is the same way. No income tax and 8%+ sales tax. I think that I prefer it that way - more consumption taxes.

isellhondas · December 2006

Sales tax in California, I remember is pretty high AND they have a state income tax as well.

smittynyc · December 2006

Sales tax in New York City is 8.375%, and my wife and I could have bought a fully loaded Pilot with what we paid in state and city (yes, CITY) income tax last year. And we're not even in the top Federal bracket.

We really enjoy living here, and I can't think of anywhere else I'd rather raise kids, but every April 15 we do wonder whether there's a better way.

mikefm58 · December 2006

You're right, NYC has to be the highest in the country, state income tax, city income tax, and last I knew state sales tax was 8%. I used to live in upstate NY and property taxes are high as well. Don't ya just love liberal states?

Here in Florida, 6.5% sales tax, no state income tax, and my property taxes are about $1400 for a typical median priced home.

recentbuyer1 · December 2006

We visited our local dealer but ended up buying via the internet, and it was a smooth and painless process. After the local dealer turned down my offer and didn't give a counter offer, I sent emails to six or seven others in the area. All of them responded (although one was just a form letter), and one sold us the vehicle for $250 under invoice (that was also with no doc. fee, just tax and actual title/registration cost). I was very happy with that price, although another dealership actually offered it at $350 below invoice! At that point, we were just about ready to finalize with the $250-off dealer...we were pleased with the way they handled things, so we didn't feel like haggling over $100. Three of the dealers took the time to follow up with us, too; I felt that all but the one form-letter place took me very seriously as a buyer. Of course, it might also help that I included contact information and that it was obvious from my offer that I had done all my background research and was ready to hand over a check. I will most definitely take this same approach the next time we buy a car.

sligg · December 2006

Isellhondas,

You are selling in a fantasy world. Why do I as a buyer have to talk to you. I give you the model number, the color, and whatever options I want. Do I have to come in to the den so that you can ply the tricks of the trade. You got a product, I want to buy it, so give me a number already. You are not paying for my time, the gas I use, the tolls I pay so why do I want to look at your face, after all you all "look" alike.

It's only a commodity and I do realize I don't buy a car, you sell me a car only if my number is acceptable. And if it is, then we get up to do a waltz over the garbage charges that you creative dealers conjure up.

I've been trying to buy a Sonata for two years in the NYC area and I have been scammed, lied to, license stolen, keys mysteriously lost, pin stripes, window etch, undercoat, paint protection, deposits held for months, and on and on and on-the scams are endless.

Tell me Isellhondas, how is it that most auto dealers in the NYC area have complaints filed against them by the BBB and Department of Consumer Affairs. Many dealers have been fined large amounts of money and cease and desist orders written up and still the stealing goes on.

But I forget, you are a professional in a noble business and your dealership is holy, never tainted by the scandalous behavior of it's staff.

Happy holidays, I'm glad Santa drives a sled and even then he probably paid for undercoat and doc fees and who knows what else????

imidazol97 · December 2006

What do your property taxes and license taxes look like? Are they high? Is there a yearly tax on car value, e.g.?

imidazol97 · December 2006

Isellhondas doesn't deserve this negative comment. He has always been straight forward about his own business and sales through the years I've been on Edmunds.

If you are angry at NY businesses contact your politicians who make and enforce the laws. Contact Hillary and Chuck and your state politicians. I thought the mayor and governor cleaned up NYC...

tidester · December 2006

I am sorry to hear that you have had bad experiences in buying a car but that is not a basis for making generalizations about salespeople in markets with which you are unlikely to be familiar. Please, let's avoid wild speculation and generalizations. They are bordering on insulting and we'd prefer civil dialog here.

The bottom line is that if you don't want to do business with a particular salesperson then find somebody else.

tidester, host

drewba · December 2006

I am in the Seattle area (work in Bellevue, live just east of Renton). I didn't recall that the tax rate on cars is 9.1% though. Is the extra .3% for the RTA?

gasman1 · December 2006

sligg - if isell lives in fantasy world, I'm sorry you live in car buying hell. Isell is one of the good guys and ALL SMs or dealerships are not as you describe. You may want to consider using a buying service or some other 3rd party to purchase your Sonata. If they're getting you this upset, take yourself out of the confrontation. You may live longer and enjoy life. I also suggest you sweeten future post rather than more sour ones such as this rant. Good luck!

audia8q · December 2006

Sounds like you have some issues to work out...Perhaps some big bad salesperson made you feel bad...I bet if you sweeten your ugly tone a little maybe Santa will bring you the help you seem to need.

abraindrainer · December 2006

Isell: I have a couple of questions for you!

(1) What do you recommend for a buyer to do if a dealer says: "show me a purchase order from another dealership and I will beat it by $X".

(2) What should be the next step if that dealer than states: I won't do that because I will lose money on that deal! Then he/she quickly follows that with: How can I earn your business?

abraindrainer · December 2006

Sligg,

(1) You are too nice to the dealers if you give them a deposit with anything other than a credit card.
(2) do not trade in anything, sell the used car on your own
(3) take your business out of state because there are plenty of dealers up and down 95 that will treat you better. Try buying in PA where the fees are capped at $55! Get all the paperwork signed before you appear to only pick up the vehicle. Purchase a one way train ticket to PA and any reasonable dealership will happily pick you up from a nearby train station.
(4) OR try this place: waikemhyundai.com. Their sister Honda dealership used to deliver (for about $300-400 to NY) to your door.

Good luck!

cdnpinhead · December 2006

Santa has baggage this time of the year, but it sounds like you've got even more.

Here's wishing you better luck/experiences in your future car acquisitions.

You will need to do this again, unless you want to start buying used cars from private parties. It's helpful to learn to take some pleasure from the experience.

Good luck.

phairphair · December 2006

I'd like to purchase a car with my American Express card. Does anyone know if a dealer will allow this once a purchase price has been agreed upon?

Potential issues I can forsee are the 3% fee they may have to pay to the CC company...

Any experience with this?

Kirstie_H · December 2006

With AmEx, the fee is a lot higher to the merchant than the ~3% charged by Visa & MasterCard. Unless you're willing to add that fee to your purchase price, it's unlikely a dealer will take the CC for the full purchase price.

boomchek · December 2006

We take a mximum of up to $2k on credit card. Sometimes if the customer asks we make an exeption and allow $5k. But that's about it.

It also depends on the car you're buying. What price range is it in?

oldfarmer50 · December 2006

Call NY politicians for help? HA HA HA HO HO!!! Oh man, I just fell on the floor from the laughter! Our state comptroller just pleaded guilty to a felony for stealing from the taxpayer and you think people like This are going to help the little guy? As for Hillary didn't she steal the silverware from the whitehouse on her way out? I would rather trust my life savings to the worst car salesman than to the best politician in NY. BTW, while I don't agree with Isell's sales style, I agree he has been a straight shooter on these boards.

Dealers Too Busy For OnLine Shoppers

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