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The Future Of The Manual Transmission

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    For some odd reason (gearing, perhaps?) the Impreza never did any better than the Forester from the same model year. Often it actually fared worse in EPA ratings.

    Our Forester gets 24mpg or so around the 'burbs, but on trips we can break 30. Our record is just over 33.

    An Outback with the CVT can even beat that. Gearing is ultra-low, you can hit nearly 80mph at 2000rpm. :surprise:

    The Impreza is smaller and can't match either of those.

    Enthusiasts are gonna get the WRX anyway, manual only. I like that - Subaru's message seems to be that if you can't drive stick...NO SOUP FOR YOU! :D
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    I started my soon to be fifteen year old daughter out on the whole stick thing this weekend. She was sitting in the passenger seat and I had her do the shifting; when we got home she said, "That was fun, I can't wait to do it for real." Oh yeah, daddy's girl. :shades:
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,408
    Wasn't or isn't there a JDM WRX with an automatic?

    I'd love to have one and take it to fanboy meets just to piss off the die hards :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    edited December 2011
    They had one here, then they started selling a "2.5GT" model (no WRX name, though) with auto, then they just dropped it.

    just to piss off the die hards

    Nah, just show up in a FWD Civic-based drag car. Fist fights almost broke out. :D
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,408
    Probably didn't sell, seems to betray the point - with a layout like that, you need a manual to optimize it. It's not like a huge engine car where a slushbox is fine because of excess power.

    I think I will show up in a beige Corolla CE with STi badges :shades:
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Better yet, I let my 12 YO daughter move the shifter between gears when i tell her. This weekend as we were out shopping, she started asking me to say exactly what I was doing: brake, clutch in, shift, clutch out, gas, clutch in, shift, clutch out and so on.

    Within a couple of minutes she was mimicking me from the passenger seat just based on feel and calling out what I was doing. I was impressed.

    My 15 YO son otoh could care less. He's willing to learn to drive stick only because he's getting this car in 18 months.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    An Outback with the CVT can even beat that. Gearing is ultra-low, you can hit nearly 80mph at 2000rpm

    Subaru stood pat on the 4EAT for way too long, probably because the tranny is closely intertwined with the AWD system.

    I'd love to see Subaru do something with a dual-clutch gearbox, but I guess you can't have everything.
  • srs_49srs_49 Member Posts: 1,394
    Approach it as a survival skill. Say she's out with some jerk in his Shelby Mustang who has one too many. She'll be able to leave him alongside the road and get herself home!
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "I'd love to see Subaru do something with a dual-clutch gearbox, but I guess you can't have everything."

    Of course there are those of us who would ask why bother with a dual clutch when they already have a perfectly servicable CVT; better off spending the money on a sweet shifting 6-Speed manual. :shades:
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    CVTs are a bit more slushboxy than a nice crisp DSG with a proper up/down slapshifter and paddles.

    Though CVTs can flip through preprogrammed gears with a quickness to rival a DSG. A DSG can handle more torque though.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    No, in that case, she calls me, and I come out, put him on the road, and drive the car home!

    And my daughter thought is was kind of neat, until we got into slopes, turns, etc. Seemed to lose it's appeal at that point. And otherwise she seems to be a good driver (fairly natural).

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think I will show up in a beige Corolla CE with STi badges

    You'll need a body guard. :D
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I hope not, because if Subaru has a good DSG, the manual transmission just may indeed become extinct. :cry:
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    DSG FTW! :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Never even tried one, oddly enough, but I've kept loyal to true manuals.

    Aren't they expensive to service? And what about eventual repair costs?
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    I have the same thought about DSG. You gotta figure that a clutch job is going to be like an AT overhaul. And I wouldn't bet these are life of the car units.

    But, when I tried out an A3 when they first came out, it was a lot of fun for an automatic.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm more tentative than you are. I imagine they have the complexity of a slushbox and an automatic combined.

    Doesn't help that I've heard whining about 40k service costs for the DSG.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,330
    If I am getting an AT, I am fine with old school slushbox tech, as long as it is one with a solid reputation. The BMW box works just fine to me.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Well, no, they still wouldn't sell!

    When cars sat on our busy lot for a year, making more of them wouldn't have increased sales!
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    "But, when I tried out an A3 when they first came out, it was a lot of fun for an automatic."

    I've driven a DSG A3 and a couple of DSG equipped GTIs, and like you said, they were a lot of fun for an automatic. I rather liken it to something along the lines of kissing your sister; it just ain't the real thing. :blush:
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A CVT is a great transmission...for a snowmobile. :P
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I still think the right CVT with the right control interface could be a dangerous performance weapon provided it can handle the torque of a 200+ HP engine. What happens when you go from Continuously Variable to Continuously Controllable? What happens when you can dial in a specific RPM or gear ratio, and adjust it with a slider or dial?

    What would you do with as many "gears" as you can invent? :shades:
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2011
    I've always had this urge to stick a gear shift knob on a Piper Cub stick.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well maybe in some future universe ruled by an advanced alien civilization, CVTs will be capable of all that, but for now, I've yet to drive one that doesn't depress me.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    Just to spite you I'm going to design a sport-oriented CVT. ;)
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 265,425
    Will that be a companion piece to your perpetual motion machine? ;)

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I don't know that they'll ever solve high torque belt slippage with that wonky-wonky system they use for downshifting. :)
  • hoosiergrandadhoosiergrandad Member Posts: 96
    Ain't no "gears" in a CVT.......the basic principle goes back to threshing machines and is still used in modern combines, and other apps. Older combines used a variable speed belt drive (sheaves were moved in and out by pushing or pulling a hydraulic control lever), giving you an infinite number of "gears". Newer machines now use hydrostatic drive, but still control speeds of threshing machinery with variable speed belts. You necessarily sliiiiiiiiiide between one ratio and the next, not that there's anything wrong with that.
  • bpizzutibpizzuti Member Posts: 2,743
    I think Nissan uses a gear-type system, small teeth on the spindles and corresponding holes in the belt. Sort of like a bicycle chain but smaller.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Some are better than others - I like Nissan's better than Mitsubishi's, for instance (Altima vs. Lancer rental).

    They should try to keep the RPMs at or near the torque peak, but some try for higher RPM, near the HP peak, and those can feel buzzy and make droning noises.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    did I say 'gears'? i didn't say gears :shades:

    Yes, I've seen animations on how CVT works, and after viewing them, I think to myself "Ah, the answer to a question nobody asked".
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The CVT's remind me of an old Buick Dynaflow.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Think of them as a necessary evil to meet future CAFE numbers. We're going to see more and more of them.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Ah, the Nuremberg Defense---no, I'm not going to participate in this moral assault against having fun while driving. :P
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You and I are happy driving very light cars with manuals transmissions.

    We represent BOTH of the people in the USA who feel that way! :D
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    the few...the brave...the chosen. :P

    Actually, now with a cop car and speed trap more plentiful than freeway exits, and with traffic congestion reaching new heights, what better way to retain the *illusion* of speed than in a small, low, buzzy, loud car with a 6 speed manual transmission. I can still go around a twisty and say WHEE even if it's only 55 mph.

    Or start riding motorcycles again. (No, I will never ride a Goldwing).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    speed trap more plentiful

    No kidding!

    They just added a speed cam on Canal Rd, the route I use to commute. Limit is 30mph but I think average speed was more like 55-60 without traffic. They're going to make a small fortune until everyone figures it out.

    Biggest motorcycle I've owned was just 250cc.
  • eliaselias Member Posts: 2,209
    How about that M series BMW 1. wouldn't that thing be a blast with a stickshift! woo hoo!
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    Yes, I imagine it would! And, if you were the one lucky enough to be driving it, you would also have the advantage of not having to look at those hideous wheels! :P
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    GEEZ--those wheels look like something you buy at Kragen's. I never thought I'd reject a car merely for the wheels, but in this case, the dealer will have to find me something else before I even leave the driveway. I have a reputation to uphold.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,676
    I have a reputation to uphold.

    Hahah; that made me laugh out loud. Thankfully, the first photo I pulled up was of the front. I guess if you keep the car going fast enough, no one will ever notice. :shades:
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/21/2014-audi-r8-to-do-away-with-manual-gearbox/
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited December 2011
    The (7 speed) DSG tends to get lost in the translation !! The article alludes to the A8's "lackluster automatic" (my sic- slush box automatic) Most folks probably do not care nor even know the DSG revolutionizes MPG over the slush boxes of old, no matter how well built.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Dang, seems like that's three just in the last month or two. Anyone keeping score?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sadly, we're getting crushed. :(
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well that's what they said about General Custer but he just got up and......oh, wait a minute... :blush:
  • breldbreld Member Posts: 6,918
    Well, to add a little hope to the discussion, my wife and I were at a VW dealer this last weekend, and I was surprised to see 2 Passat TDI 6-speed manuals on their lot. Gotta give them credit for producing those.

    2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman

  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "At today's prices for auto repair, it doesn't take much to effectively total a car.

    A 5000.00 car that needs a 7500.00 (!) transmission would fit in that catagory."

    Sorry for my delayed response to your message, but it may be worthwhile to invest the $7,500, however painful. If you scrap the car you've lost an asset worth $5,000. If you invest $7,500 to repair it you don't lose your $5,000 car, so you've essentially lost the difference between the repair and the vaulue of the car with a good transmission, or $2,500. Either way you lose if the transmission goes, but you arguably lose less if you repair it.
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Member Posts: 4,600
    "Can you get a V6 Camry with manual? Nope, only the 4, and only the most basic trim."

    Sorry to disappoint you, but all 2012 Camry 4s are now automatic.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    edited January 2012
    I also think you may have underestimated the cost of the new car. In CA, one has to pay sales tax, which can vary between 8 to 10%. So for example on a 30,000 car, you can easily add between $2,400 to $3,000 to the agreed upon price. Registration, and insurance are also much higher for new cars than older ones. There is also talk of adding back double declining taxation "in lieu of personal income tax" as they used to call it, when it was implemented.

    Depending on which tax bracket one is annointed 33,000 after tax monies are more like $ 60,000+ earned.
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