Only a very misinformed person would buy one of these idiot cars. They cost more, take much more energy to build, pollute just as much, have much lower resale, and perform worse than most practical ice autos.
If you are promoting these things you are either not very bright or you have a financial interest somewhere. End of story.
In 1491 the entire world knew the world was flat. End of that story.
They cost more; No, a Passat or a 3-series costs more. (they) take more energy to build; No data was supplied for that study so there is no way to verify if it's valid or made up. You believed it without data? Weird. (they) pollute just as much; and your data for this gross statement of error is??? Lower resale value;you couldnt be farther from the truth. Resale values are most contingent on supply and the supply of hyrids is very slim so the trade-in price is artificially high now. HUGE error in knowledge. perform worse than most practical ice autos; some are slower, yes, perform worse, no. Cruising at 45 or cruising at 65 is the same in a Tahoe, Camry, Intrepid, HCH, or HH. In fact the HH and the 400h are rockets far outperforming any other midsized SUV by a huge amount. Another HUGE error in knowledge.
Skeptics will be the last buyers that is certain. It's why there are so many models.
Ford's Meta One Diesel Hybrid meets PZEV and I posted about this diesel hybrid over a year ago. Did you forget about this or are you simply ignorant about diesel technology?
As I've stated at least 20 times in the past, I am an advocate of diesel, hybrid, natural gas and fuel cell vehicles. Pay attention at least once please. Wait, it does not matter as you will continue your distorted campaign of misleading diesel disinformation.
Hybrid cost is the hurdle for hybrids to overcome. Diesel does not have the suffer the high cost differential of hybrids.
Ok, lets talk about resale value of the hybrid after 5 or 6 years. How much more would you pay for a hybrid vs non hybrid of the same make, etc. knowing you would soon be faced with replacing $5,000. to $8,000. worth of batteries?
At the time I got the 2004 Honda Civic, the negotiated price difference was $7,436 for a Honda Civic Hybrid. (12,564 vs 20,000) So your $7630 figure difference really has not changed much in 2 years, despite having more "VOLUME". Again 50 miles per day at 38 mpg @2.50 per gal, that gives me app 113,027 miles of commuting. Or in my case a bit over 8.5 years of commuting.
Omitting to tell everyone about the keys locked in the vehicle, eh? How long did they have to wait for CAA to arrive and retrieve them? Why didn't you include that in your calculation? For that matter, what about the other breaks when drivers switched vehicles? What about food? What about the stop when they had to figure out which way to detour?
You choose the example John. Do you know that a diesel operates more efficiently when it reaches operating temperature and short trips decrease it's operating efficiency? Why did you conveniently omit the data of trip distance and time from your original post? It is highly likely that the Jetta TDI would have obtained higher fuel efficiency than the Prius on the challenge if the there were not frequent stops.
There are so many unknown variables in the "real world example" you choose to champion the Prius as to make it worthless.
Not quite. The Greeks determined that the earth was sphere circling the sun in 250 BC. They had built the first known globe of the earth by 140 BC. There were non believers of course. Even after several explorers had circled the earth.
Hybrids DO take more energy to build according to Toyota's own website. They also pollute more in manufacture by a good amount than a comparably sized non-hybrid.
If you follow eBay auto sales you will see that Prii with more than 90k miles are selling far below blue book or TMV. I cannot find any online after sale information other than eBay. Maybe you can link us to a good source. 90k miles is not a deterrent for most cars and especially Toyota. It seems to be on the Prius.
..."In 1491 the entire world knew the world was flat. End of that story. "....
Actually that was neither the beginning nor the end of the story. But it is not hard to imagine the hybrid advocates as the Inquisition!! Lets see ban diesel and persecute anyone but the "true believers" hybrid buyers.
You have described many of the additional complexities of the Prius that make me nervous. You and I both know that our world is more under computer control than ever. In a car it adds to the entertainment as well as the hazards. Remember the hundreds of stalled Prii the first year of the Prius II. I cannot with any authority say how many more electronic devices the Prius has than say a Camry non-hybrid. I would venture a lot. What I do know is our 2006 trucks have a lot more than our 2003 models, and they are in the shop continually. Too many sensors to monitor every aspect of the vehicle. Mostly for emissions. Well they may work dandy in mid America. In the Arctic it is a total pain in the behind. I don't like the complexity and am leaning more toward buying older vehicles. There are a ton of suckers that sell their SUVs every time the price of gas goes up a nickel. I honestly believe cars are being built as throwaway vehicles. When the warranty is up get a new one because you will have a lot of expensive repairs.
As a person that came within a pen stroke of buying one of the original Prius, I am thankful my wife hated the looks.
"Hybrids DO take more energy to build according to Toyota's own website. They also pollute more in manufacture by a good amount than a comparably sized non-hybrid."
It breaks even after a year or two of ownership. After that hybrid (HSD) is cleaner. Overall, if you look at the life of a car, hybrid are more environmentally friendly, period.
"Only a very misinformed person would buy one of these idiot cars. They cost more, take much more energy to build, pollute just as much, have much lower resale, and perform worse than most practical ice autos."
Interesting, since you claim/assume to be the "informed" one, we like to know how your information. Show us the source of your information and we can discuss about it. We can even supply counter argument (if not the truth) to settle the debate.
BTW, HV battries have 10 years 150k miles warrenty. How about the "ice auto" transmission?
We had this discussion earlier in this forum.. you missed it. A 2001 Gen1 Prius is about equal in price to a 2001 Camry LE ( abt same sales price in 2001 ). It's a non-issue except to those new to the subject. Hearsay without investigation is a very dangerous thing. You get all kinds of false impressions. Do some homework you will see.
Battery replacement is also a non-issue. You need to investigate other posts in this forum and on other authoritive sites to find the verification you need.
Only if you put a lot of miles on your cars. I would say I average 40k over 7 years on my vehicles. My wife's Lexus is a 1990 with 84k miles. Under those conditions you would never get past the added pollution of manufacturing.
You won't catch me calling people names for their choice in cars. I just take a skeptics view of the whole hybrid genre. I even hold reservations about diesels. I would not recommend a hybrid or diesel to someone that is on a tight budget and can only afford one car. There are dozens of choices that are much less expensive with known track records.
You know... I posted this article on this forum some time ago. It seems to still be just as applicable now as it was a few months ago.
:shades:
------------------------------------------------
Hybrid and diesel owners tend to rehash the same arguments.
Hybrid owners argument: diesel is stinky -> diesel is an expensive fuel -> diesel (by which they only mean Volkswagen) is unreliable -> diesel is polluting -> start over at diesel is stinky
As each argument gets refuted, hybrid owner's move to the next one. Then, once they reach the last point, they'll start over again.
Diesel owners argument: hybrids are much more expensive than similar standard models -> hybrids batteries will eventually die -> hybrid repairs are expensive -> hybrid gas mileage isn't all that good in comparison
To which the hybrid owners don't really refute any of this arguments, they tend to simply deflect to a perceived diesel fault. Which then gets rebutted.
> Ford's Meta One Diesel Hybrid meets PZEV and I posted about this diesel hybrid over a year ago. Did you forget about this or are you simply ignorant about diesel technology?
Where can I buy one?
How much do they cost?
What are owners getting for MPG?
In other words, since when is a concept vehicle appropriate for real-world discussions? Geez! If that's the case, let's talk about how the 2009 Prius (the next generation model) competes with the beloved TDI system.
You took the invoice value of the CE... Hmmm and the full retail value of the TCH... Hmmm
The pricing is MSRP off of the Toyota.com website as of 04/01/06. You sell these and you don't even know the difference between MSRP and invoice? :surprise: Invoice on the 2007 Camry CE is $17,670.
Equipment differences? Yes, there are equipment differences. Do you for one second believe the equipment difference is a $7630 value? Why not offer the hybrid synergy drive as a powertrain option on the different models? Answer- Very few people would pay for the true cost of the hybrid powertrain.
Hmmmm....Funny thing is that Toyota offers diesel as a powertrain option across nearly every trim in Europe for between $670 to $1100. Toyota cost for diesel powertrain No need to hide the hybrid premium with in "little equipment differences".
Does Toyota offer the Camry CE with HSD for $1100 extra?
I really do not know if it is a rehash of the arguments. However one thing is very clear now that unleaded gas has gotten to where it even makes environmental types wince or be uncomfortable, they are seeing the reality of the price rise. Again as unleaded fuel inches ever higher, that will put tremendous pressure on the ban for diesel to be lifted. Yet the diesel passenger vehicle fleet is fully 45% and GROWING!! It is amazing that gasser hybrid advocates virtually ignore that a gasser of the gasser hybrid duality will do ABSOLUTELY nothing to lessen dependency on foreign OIL (unleaded regular)!!!!! ??? The hybrid advocates just need to take the blinders off and look at Europe as a real life study. Do hybrids NOT sell so well in Europe because they are BANNED? A resounding NO !!!! I think if anything they truly FEAR diesels will sell FAR beyond even their worst fears!!
> will do ABSOLUTELY nothing to lessen dependency on foreign OIL
What the heck are you talking about?
"Full" hybrids optimized for efficiency have already proven that statement false. And as biofuel use for them expands, that will be even more so. Then when a plug is added, further reduction can take place.
Your post got me to thinking that I hadn't done an item by item comparo of the TCH vs another model. The CE is not a good one because it's relatively stripped, no power driver seat and no keyless entry. The LE is a better one for comparison:
Base LE MSRP: $21080 Base TCH MSRP: $26480
For $5400 here is what you get standard in a Base TCH vs options that you cant get in an LE or must pay extra. 16" Alloys SKS 6 CD 440w JBL BlueTooth MID Trip Computer Plasmacluster ionizer rear seat air vents Auto dimmimg mirror Leather StWheel/Shifter Homelink Rear reading lights cargo net VDIM
PLUS:...V6 hp
and...30% better FE
Anyone can price these out separately but essentially the 'hybrid premium' is the same as the 'premium' for moving from any 4c to a V6. And that's a personal choice people do everyday.
'Nope, no 4c's for me. I only drive V6's.'
LE 4c : MSRP $21080 LE V6 : MSRP $23620
In your/my previous posts neither of us was clear.. you were talking about a 5 Spd Man and I was talking about an AT. All the MSRP's above are for AT or CVT
My original post still stands as a beacon of truth amid a jumble of twisted half truths and outright lies put forth by the hybrid environmental posers!!
You want my sources? How about my innate intelligence? I figured it out on my own! It is not that difficult. You hybrid owners and advocates are the victims of a cruel joke! You fell for it! You have wasted your money and been taken advantage of! You should be irate (and secretly are) but you are in denial! Just take your medicine and move on please.
Ok guys, just kidding. I don't actually love hybrids but they do have their place. Just having some fun with you. I hope you guys have a sense of humor! It is April 1st you know. No hard feelings?
Oh! We still had a few hours left. I was hoping to milk the April Fool's opportunity for all it was worth. That was the ultimate leverage, an angle not normally available... because unfortunately, some people actually believe that; however, they are likely to unknowingly reveal a weakness when suddenly pushed from an unexpected direction.
I cannot find any online after sale information other than eBay. Maybe you can link us to a good source. 90k miles is not a deterrent for most cars and especially Toyota. It seems to be on the Prius.
Retail sale values are notoriously suspect. Auction values are the only reliable source. These prices are what you can turn your steel and glass into cash for next weeek no questions asked.
There are a couple of online 'bibles' so-to-speak in valuing trade-ins. One is the Mannheim Auction reports which gives a summary of every vehicle that goes across its auction block. Usually it's just dealers that can subscribe. The most common source is the 'Black Book' which is the UCM's daily reference guide in most areas. This is what causes so much resentment in trade-in discussions. The 'Black Book' give a summary by region of the most recent auction values of every make, model and trim for the last 20+ years. It's updated weekly and the values fall weekly ( Old cars don't age well ). This is the best source because it will tell a UCM what the real cash value of a trade will be next week at auction. You want to trade your 2001 F150 Crew Cab V8 2WD w/ 78000 mi now, the dealer will get ~$7000 for it at auction on Wed.
Other sources: NADA .. horribly off in terms of hard cold cash 'auction values'; it's good if you want to sell it yourself. KBB .. used to be the source; now it's auction values are weirdly off base but sometimes good. Edmunds .. the trade in values here are very consistent with the black book values.
A couple of examples: Both are 2001 vehicles listing originally @ $21000 back then, now with 90000 mi but ( another point of contention ) in rough condition with standard equipment.
The real question is: what are you fantazing about?
Hybrids are less than 1% of the vehicle population. This is despite the full court press to boost market share on almost ALL fronts. Diesels are 2.9% despite banning by 5 states and literally NO significant importation and domestic manufacture of diesel products.
Pretty easy explanation already. Drop the diesel ban. This of course is a Grand Inquisition "control a cratic" nightmare. Actually the answer is very easy given the following example. Since small cars aka better mileage vehicles are already 25% of the passenger vehicle fleet, drop the premiums for hybrid. Drop it for all segments especially SUV's. This of course is not going to happen soon.
EPA already has the alternative fuels program in place.
We do not need higher CAFE standards. We actually need cars that get better mileage, on the roads.
I could go on and on. But to borrow a concept from another poster, the world is still flat for you!!!
Of course if these goals are even in range, the price and taxation of the fuel will be adjusted to get the same or more revenue that is being gotten now. So that I am clear, fuel will cost more and we will have higher demands that ever before.
Your statement.. It is amazing that gasser hybrid advocates virtually ignore that a gasser of the gasser hybrid duality will do ABSOLUTELY nothing to lessen dependency on foreign OIL (unleaded regular)!!!!! flies in the face of all the data posted everywhere that hybrids presently save about 30%+ in fuel on a daily basis.
The reality is that both diesel and hybrid technology saves about the same amount of fuel daily; i.e. 30-40% But... huge but... at present - today - regulations don't allow diesels to be sold in every state. Without this being changed in one form or another, cleaner fuel, better engine technology and realistic regulations no vehicle maker will make a massive effort to promote diesel. It may be here in 3 years or it may be 5 yrs. But right now - today - hybrid technology saves us 30%+ fossil fuel usage for the hybrid vehicles in use. How can that be wrong and stir up your anger so much?
Now if your point is that the goal is to use diesel produced only from non-imported fossil fuel reserves or from non-fossil fuel at all, that's a different question. But again - today - in the current technico-regulatory environment we exist diesels are a potential for the near future. Hybrids save fossil fuel daily at the rate of 30-40%.
I think you are fully capable of researching this yourself. Is the world demand for oil increasing or decreasing?
If you want to be parochial about it, is the demand for oil in the USA increasing or decreasing? Is the USA capable of domestically producing its own oil to satisfy domestic demand; let alone EXPORT oil?
I think the answers are obvious to your questions. I think you ask them as a smoke screen for your " one size fits all" hybrid solution.
Even the EPA has an alternative fuels program, albeit if only for window dressing. The alternative fuels program will obviously have "MEAT" on its bones, when indeed upwards of 40% of fuel consumed is so called alternative fuels. ( the % of foreign oil we alledgely import) Diesel has that capability. Unleaded regular unless they can refine it from other than oil sources DOES NOT.
..."The reality is that both diesel and hybrid technology saves about the same amount of fuel daily; i.e. 30-40%"...
Again the diesel side is the unacknowledged savings of the alternative fuel program.
I am glad you recognize it. However you do not acknowledge the over all effect of less than 1% and 2.9% passenger vehicle fleet: hybrid and diesel respectively. So if we add the two together as the sum of the two segments do add to 3.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet. So while it does save 40% it is only on the 3.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet. However in the hybrid's case, the "SAVINGS" is paid for upfront and essentially non recoverable for the hybrid.
So in terms of emissions has less than 1% of the hybrids in the passenger vehicle fleet made even a measureable difference in air quality let alone a statistically validated one? Say in the overall greater metropolitan area of Boston during the daily commute? I think you already know the answer!!??
> I think you are fully capable of researching this yourself.
In other words, *YOU* continue to refuse to explain *YOUR* claim. So I will. Don't say I didn't provide the opportunity.
Repeating the "less than 1%" over and over and over again is denial of the future, pretending the amount will never increase. Of course, even then that original claim is still incorrect.
Nonetheless, the implied theme is that hybrid growth is impossible and this is the best it will ever be... hence that refusal to reply.
Well, I've got news for you. Toyota's business objectives within the next 5 to 6 years is to slice the price in half and increase hybrid production to 1,000,000 per year. Claiming that none of that effort will succeed is pretty bold, yet you did anyway by sticking to that 1%. That doesn't take into account any competition growth either. Hmm?
I think you should not attribute to me your failure to debate the issues. Clearly you do not use the opportunities to address the issues. That is really not any news. Another non piece of news is that hybrid sales will stall out if they do not get it to par with normal cars or even less than par. Hybrid price differentials are a major sticking point, especially if the goal is to get to 1,000,000 per year. Of course 1,000,000 per year is what % of 235.4 M? (NHTSA passenger vehicle fleet) Since you probably will not answer, it is .0042553%. Hmmmmm So what sticking points do you envision to get to just 1% of the fleet? Hmmmmmmmmmm Diesel populations are at 2.9% and that is with a 5 state BAN !!!! It is also not news that the regulators in the USA have been hostile to the idea of diesel. So if you think diesel will die on the vine and drop dead on the wayside why are you afraid of lifting the ban? Hmmmmmmmmm If the ban is lifted perhaps the USA will go to the way of what Europe is today 45% of the vehicle fleet diesel and GROWING!! ??
..."Nonetheless, the implied theme is that hybrid growth is impossible and this is the best it will ever be... hence that refusal to reply. "...
This is what YOU imply, clearly not me!! I detailed in another post what I thought it would take to light hybrid sales afire. YOU refused to reply!!! Perhaps the hybrid oems should pay ME for this (focus group) consultation!
I am glad you recognize it. However you do not acknowledge the over all effect of less than 1% and 2.9% passenger vehicle fleet: hybrid and diesel respectively. So if we add the two together as the sum of the two segments do add to 3.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet. So while it does save 40% it is only on the 3.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet. However in the hybrid's case, the "SAVINGS" is paid for upfront and essentially non recoverable for the hybrid.
To be sure that your argument is understood.. We agree that both diesels and gasser/hybrids conserve about 30-40% of fuel on each vehicle using it.
Your contention is that since there is a 'premium' on hybrids the solution is somewhat less valid because of the purported 'premium'? The buying public instead of paying more for gas is paying more for the vehicle. Is that correct?
If so... The 'premium' is significant to some ( they wont buy a hybrid at any premium ) or insignificant to others ( the extra few thousand dollars now is of no consequence ) . Bear in mind though, there is a premium for diesel engines as well as was discussed herein last week. It's only a matter of degree.
As several have mentioned before while the new MB diesel technology holds great promise but it's imbedded in a high end vehicle destined to a limited market. The 'premium' in this case is the value of the vehicle which is beyond the means of most.
But again to find the reason's for your antagonism toward hybrids the technology and savings in fuel consumption is right at the fingertips of the masses now - today. If the volume of components was sufficient everyone could drive a hybrid right now and we would save 30-40% of our total annual consumption of fossile fuels.
So in terms of emissions has less than 1% of the hybrids in the passenger vehicle fleet made even a measureable difference in air quality let alone a statistically validated one? Say in the overall greater metropolitan area of Boston during the daily commute? I think you already know the answer!!??
Of course not. 1% of total vehicle population can only have a nominal effect. But it's a start. Why fight it and not embrace it as a beginning step towards the point soon when a buyer can choose a diesel or hybrid power source so that we all save fuel and reduce emissions. What surprises me is that so many knowledgeable people seem who to believe that hybrid technology is a) false ... the last 3 years have convinced many that it's all smoke and mirrors; kudos to CR for making its correction. b) some alien plot ... seriously, some people get a look like the 'sign of the devil' if you mention hybrids. c) un-American ... Rush Limbaugh, occasional WSJ articles, etc. ( look at the title of this thread btw ).
But the fact remains that those driving hybrids - today - are actually conserving 30% more fuel than if they were driving an ICE version of something similar.
Conservation if that is your goal has to begin somewhere.
..."Your contention is that since there is a premium' on hybrids the solution is somewhat less valid because of the purported premium'? The buying public instead of paying more for gas is paying more for the vehicle. Is that correct? "...
I would say more costly. Yes.
..."If so... The premium' is significant to some ( they wont buy a hybrid at any premium ) or insignificant to others ( the extra few thousand dollars now is of no consequence ) . Bear in mind though, there is a premium for diesel engines as well as was discussed herein last week. It's only a matter of degree."...
Why yes, it is a matter of degree!! I have said this UPFRONT ALL along!? I have also used B/E break even as one criteria.
Being almost a buyer of a 2003 Prius, 2004 Prius and a Honda Civic Hybrid, I would hardly characterize myself as "hostile" to hybrid!? As I have stated very upfront and consistently, for a plain jane 50 mile R/T commute they did not pencil out. Also I have said diesel also pencils out given its premium over like models at app 50/60k miles. As a practical matter one needs to do over 20k per year for it to make much sense.
Also I am sure you would agree there are gobs of people who buy cars strictly on emotion!!
As for the MB 320/350 it is curious for a 50k car the premium for diesel is app 1,000?? !!
Thus it follows then that since, as in the new Hybrid Camry, the 'premium' if it exists at all is less then $800 the hybrid question is solved. Everything now is equal with the diesel option at a $1000 premium and the TCH at an $800 premium.
In the MB case it's hard to know how much original R&D, startup/development costs, volume costs are being hidden in that $50K pricetag. It's the same with the Hybrids.
IMO the marketing people 'know' that the goal in either option is a $1000 delta between an ICE gasser and a more fuel efficient option.
..."Thus it follows then that since, as in the new Hybrid Camry, the 'premium' if it exists at all is less then $800 the hybrid question is solved. Everything now is equal with the diesel option at a $1000 premium and the TCH at an $800 premium. "...
Well I think part of this is part of the year to year three card monty scenario going on. Let me explain.
Again if your quoted quote is true, then for the hybrid it is STILL app 50/60k.
In the case of the 2006 Civic and the 2004 Civic the price of the "totally redesigned" Civic is app 5400 more. So at that time I got a 2004 Civic for 12,600 vs 20,000 for a HCH or 7400 premium. Fast forward to 2006 and the 2006 Civic is 18000 and the HCH is 22,700 or now: ONLY 4700 premium??? SOOOOOOOOO either option you decide they are still making more money and in fact seemly solving the "PREMIUM" issue? So is PT Barnums quote ever so applicable even today?
There is no premium for a Prius vs ICE Prius; The premium for a HH vs ICE Highlander is about $5000; The premium for a HCH vs ICE Civic ( same equipment ) is ?? @2900; The premium for a TCH vs ICE Camry is ~ $800 or less; I think the HAH is dead in the water.
Just keep on dreaming that gas prices will remain constant, that they'll never go up over the lifetime of the vehicle.
How is that even the slightest bit wise?
Of course gas prices will go up... which will turn things heavily in favor of hybrids. Just wait. It won't take long. There are plenty of problems already brewing to push us right back into that $3 per gallon level again.
Some of the impetus for higher prices of unleaded is the shortage of Ethanol that is replacing MTBE. We heard the same doom and gloom in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The price of gas did go down, a lot. That was the reason for the huge surge in SUVs from the late 1980s till now. Only a few believed the doomsday prophets. Unless you have a crystal ball, predicting what the commodity market will do is a crap shoot.
..."Of course not. 1% of total vehicle population can only have a nominal effect. But it's a start. Why fight it and not embrace it as a beginning step towards the point soon when a buyer can choose a diesel or hybrid power source so that we all save fuel and reduce emissions"...
Well I think then we agree! While you, me, they or whatever, whoever might like hybrid, it is the sound of one hand clapping if we ban or limit diesel. Diesel indeed has many more option paths than unleaded regular.
Comments
If you are promoting these things you are either not very bright or you have a financial interest somewhere. End of story.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
They cost more; No, a Passat or a 3-series costs more.
(they) take more energy to build; No data was supplied for that study so there is no way to verify if it's valid or made up. You believed it without data? Weird.
(they) pollute just as much; and your data for this gross statement of error is???
Lower resale value;you couldnt be farther from the truth. Resale values are most contingent on supply and the supply of hyrids is very slim so the trade-in price is artificially high now. HUGE error in knowledge.
perform worse than most practical ice autos; some are slower, yes, perform worse, no. Cruising at 45 or cruising at 65 is the same in a Tahoe, Camry, Intrepid, HCH, or HH. In fact the HH and the 400h are rockets far outperforming any other midsized SUV by a huge amount. Another HUGE error in knowledge.
Skeptics will be the last buyers that is certain. It's why there are so many models.
Oh, the world was proven not to be flat.
Did you forget about this or are you simply ignorant about diesel technology?
As I've stated at least 20 times in the past, I am an advocate of diesel, hybrid, natural gas and fuel cell vehicles. Pay attention at least once please. Wait, it does not matter as you will continue your distorted campaign of misleading diesel disinformation.
Hybrid cost is the hurdle for hybrids to overcome.
Diesel does not have the suffer the high cost differential of hybrids.
If the TCH is an indication the hybrid cost differential may be coming under control. Volume helps.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
$18,270 Camry CE
$25,900 Camry Hybrid
$7630 difference
The TCH is a good example of the cost of the hybrid powertrain.
That is a non-issue and not worth discussing.
Give some examples of battery failure in hybrids if you REALLY think it is important.
You choose the example John. Do you know that a diesel operates more efficiently when it reaches operating temperature and short trips decrease it's operating efficiency?
Why did you conveniently omit the data of trip distance and time from your original post?
It is highly likely that the Jetta TDI would have obtained higher fuel efficiency than the Prius on the challenge if the there were not frequent stops.
There are so many unknown variables in the "real world example" you choose to champion the Prius as to make it worthless.
Not quite. The Greeks determined that the earth was sphere circling the sun in 250 BC. They had built the first known globe of the earth by 140 BC. There were non believers of course. Even after several explorers had circled the earth.
Hybrids DO take more energy to build according to Toyota's own website. They also pollute more in manufacture by a good amount than a comparably sized non-hybrid.
If you follow eBay auto sales you will see that Prii with more than 90k miles are selling far below blue book or TMV. I cannot find any online after sale information other than eBay. Maybe you can link us to a good source. 90k miles is not a deterrent for most cars and especially Toyota. It seems to be on the Prius.
Actually that was neither the beginning nor the end of the story. But it is not hard to imagine the hybrid advocates as the Inquisition!!
As a person that came within a pen stroke of buying one of the original Prius, I am thankful my wife hated the looks.
It breaks even after a year or two of ownership. After that hybrid (HSD) is cleaner. Overall, if you look at the life of a car, hybrid are more environmentally friendly, period.
Interesting, since you claim/assume to be the "informed" one, we like to know how your information. Show us the source of your information and we can discuss about it. We can even supply counter argument (if not the truth) to settle the debate.
BTW, HV battries have 10 years 150k miles warrenty. How about the "ice auto" transmission?
Dennis
You took the invoice value of the CE... Hmmm
and the full retail value of the TCH... Hmmm
You may have forgotten a little equipment differences between the two also. C'mon now...I know you are better than that.
Rocky
Battery replacement is also a non-issue. You need to investigate other posts in this forum and on other authoritive sites to find the verification you need.
All the info is there for the finding.
I guess it's all in the perspective.
Only if you put a lot of miles on your cars. I would say I average 40k over 7 years on my vehicles. My wife's Lexus is a 1990 with 84k miles. Under those conditions you would never get past the added pollution of manufacturing.
:shades:
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Hybrid and diesel owners tend to rehash the same arguments.
Hybrid owners argument: diesel is stinky -> diesel is an expensive fuel -> diesel (by which they only mean Volkswagen) is unreliable -> diesel is polluting -> start over at diesel is stinky
As each argument gets refuted, hybrid owner's move to the next one. Then, once they reach the last point, they'll start over again.
Diesel owners argument: hybrids are much more expensive than similar standard models -> hybrids batteries will eventually die -> hybrid repairs are expensive -> hybrid gas mileage isn't all that good in comparison
To which the hybrid owners don't really refute any of this arguments, they tend to simply deflect to a perceived diesel fault. Which then gets rebutted.
Where can I buy one?
How much do they cost?
What are owners getting for MPG?
In other words, since when is a concept vehicle appropriate for real-world discussions? Geez! If that's the case, let's talk about how the 2009 Prius (the next generation model) competes with the beloved TDI system.
JOHN
and the full retail value of the TCH... Hmmm
The pricing is MSRP off of the Toyota.com website as of 04/01/06.
You sell these and you don't even know the difference between MSRP and invoice? :surprise:
Invoice on the 2007 Camry CE is $17,670.
Equipment differences? Yes, there are equipment differences. Do you for one second believe the equipment difference is a $7630 value?
Why not offer the hybrid synergy drive as a powertrain option on the different models?
Answer- Very few people would pay for the true cost of the hybrid powertrain.
Hmmmm....Funny thing is that Toyota offers diesel as a powertrain option across nearly every trim in Europe for between $670 to $1100. Toyota cost for diesel powertrain
No need to hide the hybrid premium with in "little equipment differences".
Does Toyota offer the Camry CE with HSD for $1100 extra?
So far, no one has presented a diesel capable of that. Yet, the hybrids can and do. So I'll support them.
Will you endorse the Meta One concept?
Geez! If that's the case, let's talk about how the 2009 Prius (the next generation model) competes with the beloved TDI system.
Here is one of many pages about the Meta One. Meta One Share the details about the 2009 Prius and we can discuss how they will compete.
Not without real-world data from actual owners.
JOHN
What the heck are you talking about?
"Full" hybrids optimized for efficiency have already proven that statement false. And as biofuel use for them expands, that will be even more so. Then when a plug is added, further reduction can take place.
Explain your claim.
JOHN
Base LE MSRP: $21080
Base TCH MSRP: $26480
For $5400 here is what you get standard in a Base TCH vs options that you cant get in an LE or must pay extra.
16" Alloys
SKS
6 CD 440w JBL
BlueTooth
MID Trip Computer
Plasmacluster ionizer
rear seat air vents
Auto dimmimg mirror
Leather StWheel/Shifter
Homelink
Rear reading lights
cargo net
VDIM
PLUS:...V6 hp
and...30% better FE
Anyone can price these out separately but essentially the 'hybrid premium' is the same as the 'premium' for moving from any 4c to a V6. And that's a personal choice people do everyday.
'Nope, no 4c's for me. I only drive V6's.'
LE 4c : MSRP $21080
LE V6 : MSRP $23620
In your/my previous posts neither of us was clear.. you were talking about a 5 Spd Man and I was talking about an AT. All the MSRP's above are for AT or CVT
You want my sources? How about my innate intelligence? I figured it out on my own! It is not that difficult. You hybrid owners and advocates are the victims of a cruel joke! You fell for it! You have wasted your money and been taken advantage of! You should be irate (and secretly are) but you are in denial! Just take your medicine and move on please.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Thank you sir for your well-reasoned and informative post. It will be given it's proper consideration.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
JOHN
Retail sale values are notoriously suspect. Auction values are the only reliable source. These prices are what you can turn your steel and glass into cash for next weeek no questions asked.
There are a couple of online 'bibles' so-to-speak in valuing trade-ins. One is the Mannheim Auction reports which gives a summary of every vehicle that goes across its auction block. Usually it's just dealers that can subscribe. The most common source is the 'Black Book' which is the UCM's daily reference guide in most areas. This is what causes so much resentment in trade-in discussions. The 'Black Book' give a summary by region of the most recent auction values of every make, model and trim for the last 20+ years. It's updated weekly and the values fall weekly ( Old cars don't age well ). This is the best source because it will tell a UCM what the real cash value of a trade will be next week at auction. You want to trade your 2001 F150 Crew Cab V8 2WD w/ 78000 mi now, the dealer will get ~$7000 for it at auction on Wed.
Other sources:
NADA .. horribly off in terms of hard cold cash 'auction values'; it's good if you want to sell it yourself.
KBB .. used to be the source; now it's auction values are weirdly off base but sometimes good.
Edmunds .. the trade in values here are very consistent with the black book values.
A couple of examples:
Both are 2001 vehicles listing originally @ $21000 back then, now with 90000 mi but ( another point of contention ) in rough condition with standard equipment.
LE Camry 4c : Edmunds - $4400 .... KBB - $3950
Gen1 Prius : Edmunds - $6100 .... KBB - $7100
The real question is: what are you fantazing about?
Hybrids are less than 1% of the vehicle population. This is despite the full court press to boost market share on almost ALL fronts. Diesels are 2.9% despite banning by 5 states and literally NO significant importation and domestic manufacture of diesel products.
Pretty easy explanation already. Drop the diesel ban. This of course is a Grand Inquisition "control a cratic" nightmare. Actually the answer is very easy given the following example. Since small cars aka better mileage vehicles are already 25% of the passenger vehicle fleet, drop the premiums for hybrid. Drop it for all segments especially SUV's. This of course is not going to happen soon.
EPA already has the alternative fuels program in place.
We do not need higher CAFE standards. We actually need cars that get better mileage, on the roads.
I could go on and on. But to borrow a concept from another poster, the world is still flat for you!!!
Of course if these goals are even in range, the price and taxation of the fuel will be adjusted to get the same or more revenue that is being gotten now. So that I am clear, fuel will cost more and we will have higher demands that ever before.
The reality is that both diesel and hybrid technology saves about the same amount of fuel daily; i.e. 30-40%
But... huge but... at present - today - regulations don't allow diesels to be sold in every state. Without this being changed in one form or another, cleaner fuel, better engine technology and realistic regulations no vehicle maker will make a massive effort to promote diesel. It may be here in 3 years or it may be 5 yrs. But right now - today - hybrid technology saves us 30%+ fossil fuel usage for the hybrid vehicles in use. How can that be wrong and stir up your anger so much?
Now if your point is that the goal is to use diesel produced only from non-imported fossil fuel reserves or from non-fossil fuel at all, that's a different question. But again - today - in the current technico-regulatory environment we exist diesels are a potential for the near future. Hybrids save fossil fuel daily at the rate of 30-40%.
The numbers are likely to expand as well.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/03/report_toyota_p.html#more
At the same time if diesel is authorized countrywide then all the technology in place in Europe will migrate here as well. Both are good for us.
Hybrid technology clearly does reduce comsumption. So once again, I ask you to explain your claim.
JOHN
If you want to be parochial about it, is the demand for oil in the USA increasing or decreasing? Is the USA capable of domestically producing its own oil to satisfy domestic demand; let alone EXPORT oil?
I think the answers are obvious to your questions. I think you ask them as a smoke screen for your " one size fits all" hybrid solution.
Even the EPA has an alternative fuels program, albeit if only for window dressing.
Again the diesel side is the unacknowledged savings of the alternative fuel program.
I am glad you recognize it. However you do not acknowledge the over all effect of less than 1% and 2.9% passenger vehicle fleet: hybrid and diesel respectively. So if we add the two together as the sum of the two segments do add to 3.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet. So while it does save 40% it is only on the 3.9% of the passenger vehicle fleet. However in the hybrid's case, the "SAVINGS" is paid for upfront and essentially non recoverable for the hybrid.
So in terms of emissions has less than 1% of the hybrids in the passenger vehicle fleet made even a measureable difference in air quality let alone a statistically validated one? Say in the overall greater metropolitan area of Boston during the daily commute? I think you already know the answer!!??
In other words, *YOU* continue to refuse to explain *YOUR* claim. So I will. Don't say I didn't provide the opportunity.
Repeating the "less than 1%" over and over and over again is denial of the future, pretending the amount will never increase. Of course, even then that original claim is still incorrect.
Nonetheless, the implied theme is that hybrid growth is impossible and this is the best it will ever be... hence that refusal to reply.
Well, I've got news for you. Toyota's business objectives within the next 5 to 6 years is to slice the price in half and increase hybrid production to 1,000,000 per year. Claiming that none of that effort will succeed is pretty bold, yet you did anyway by sticking to that 1%. That doesn't take into account any competition growth either. Hmm?
JOHN
..."Nonetheless, the implied theme is that hybrid growth is impossible and this is the best it will ever be... hence that refusal to reply. "...
This is what YOU imply, clearly not me!! I detailed in another post what I thought it would take to light hybrid sales afire. YOU refused to reply!!! Perhaps the hybrid oems should pay ME for this (focus group) consultation!
To be sure that your argument is understood.. We agree that both diesels and gasser/hybrids conserve about 30-40% of fuel on each vehicle using it.
Your contention is that since there is a 'premium' on hybrids the solution is somewhat less valid because of the purported 'premium'? The buying public instead of paying more for gas is paying more for the vehicle. Is that correct?
If so...
The 'premium' is significant to some ( they wont buy a hybrid at any premium ) or insignificant to others ( the extra few thousand dollars now is of no consequence ) . Bear in mind though, there is a premium for diesel engines as well as was discussed herein last week. It's only a matter of degree.
As several have mentioned before while the new MB diesel technology holds great promise but it's imbedded in a high end vehicle destined to a limited market. The 'premium' in this case is the value of the vehicle which is beyond the means of most.
But again to find the reason's for your antagonism toward hybrids the technology and savings in fuel consumption is right at the fingertips of the masses now - today. If the volume of components was sufficient everyone could drive a hybrid right now and we would save 30-40% of our total annual consumption of fossile fuels.
So in terms of emissions has less than 1% of the hybrids in the passenger vehicle fleet made even a measureable difference in air quality let alone a statistically validated one? Say in the overall greater metropolitan area of Boston during the daily commute? I think you already know the answer!!??
Of course not. 1% of total vehicle population can only have a nominal effect. But it's a start. Why fight it and not embrace it as a beginning step towards the point soon when a buyer can choose a diesel or hybrid power source so that we all save fuel and reduce emissions. What surprises me is that so many knowledgeable people seem who to believe that hybrid technology is
a) false ... the last 3 years have convinced many that it's all smoke and mirrors; kudos to CR for making its correction.
b) some alien plot ... seriously, some people get a look like the 'sign of the devil' if you mention hybrids.
c) un-American ... Rush Limbaugh, occasional WSJ articles, etc. ( look at the title of this thread btw ).
But the fact remains that those driving hybrids - today - are actually conserving 30% more fuel than if they were driving an ICE version of something similar.
Conservation if that is your goal has to begin somewhere.
I would say more costly. Yes.
..."If so...
The premium' is significant to some ( they wont buy a hybrid at any premium ) or insignificant to others ( the extra few thousand dollars now is of no consequence ) . Bear in mind though, there is a premium for diesel engines as well as was discussed herein last week. It's only a matter of degree."...
Why yes, it is a matter of degree!! I have said this UPFRONT ALL along!? I have also used B/E break even as one criteria.
Being almost a buyer of a 2003 Prius, 2004 Prius and a Honda Civic Hybrid, I would hardly characterize myself as "hostile" to hybrid!? As I have stated very upfront and consistently, for a plain jane 50 mile R/T commute they did not pencil out. Also I have said diesel also pencils out given its premium over like models at app 50/60k miles. As a practical matter one needs to do over 20k per year for it to make much sense.
Also I am sure you would agree there are gobs of people who buy cars strictly on emotion!!
As for the MB 320/350 it is curious for a 50k car the premium for diesel is app 1,000?? !!
In the MB case it's hard to know how much original R&D, startup/development costs, volume costs are being hidden in that $50K pricetag. It's the same with the Hybrids.
IMO the marketing people 'know' that the goal in either option is a $1000 delta between an ICE gasser and a more fuel efficient option.
Well I think part of this is part of the year to year three card monty scenario going on. Let me explain.
Again if your quoted quote is true, then for the hybrid it is STILL app 50/60k.
In the case of the 2006 Civic and the 2004 Civic the price of the "totally redesigned" Civic is app 5400 more. So at that time I got a 2004 Civic for 12,600 vs 20,000 for a HCH or 7400 premium. Fast forward to 2006 and the 2006 Civic is 18000 and the HCH is 22,700 or now: ONLY 4700 premium??? SOOOOOOOOO either option you decide they are still making more money and in fact seemly solving the "PREMIUM" issue?
There is no premium for a Prius vs ICE Prius;
The premium for a HH vs ICE Highlander is about $5000;
The premium for a HCH vs ICE Civic ( same equipment ) is ?? @2900;
The premium for a TCH vs ICE Camry is ~ $800 or less;
I think the HAH is dead in the water.
Perhaps you have mistaken my so called "hostility for hybrid" for caution in NOT investing in the WRONG hybrid technology!?
More denial.
This is great!
Just keep on dreaming that gas prices will remain constant, that they'll never go up over the lifetime of the vehicle.
How is that even the slightest bit wise?
Of course gas prices will go up... which will turn things heavily in favor of hybrids. Just wait. It won't take long. There are plenty of problems already brewing to push us right back into that $3 per gallon level again.
JOHN
Some of the impetus for higher prices of unleaded is the shortage of Ethanol that is replacing MTBE. We heard the same doom and gloom in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The price of gas did go down, a lot. That was the reason for the huge surge in SUVs from the late 1980s till now. Only a few believed the doomsday prophets. Unless you have a crystal ball, predicting what the commodity market will do is a crap shoot.
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=11520
Well I think then we agree! While you, me, they or whatever, whoever might like hybrid, it is the sound of one hand clapping if we ban or limit diesel. Diesel indeed has many more option paths than unleaded regular.