Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
Comments
I think you're giving too much credit to Porsche for accelerating the brick-like Cayenne at a fast pace. Second, a mustang isn't a sports car, it's a lowly pony car. I don't even like the Mustang, I was just using it as an example.
from the same issue....skidpad : Mustand GT : 0.84 g
cayenne T: 0.83 g
very similar , for a car that , in your own words.. "has SO MUCH weight "
You also don't understand the significance (or insignificance) of skidpad ratings. A 1994 Impala SS, tested by (I think) Car and Driver pulled 0.83g. A 1995 Nissan Maxima SE also pulled 0.83g. Heavy cars (in the case of the Impala and Cayenne) can do lateral acceleration at a satisfactory level. All it takes is a stiff suspension and meaty, sticky tires. Doesn't require a shred of technology.
slalom : Mustang GT: 64.9 mph
cayenne T : 61.6 mph
OK...here the Mustang's less weight works out...but the Cayenne figure is almost same as the Dodge Magnum RT or the Audi A6 quattro......not bad , for a SUV....right ? Again, you have to roll out some nice cars to defeat the performance figures for a SUV that has SO MUCH weight....
The slalom is where physics plays a role and if a top-heavy vehicle turns in a good performance here, technology WAS a factor. But as you illustrate, a low-tech, pony car out-slalomed the Cayenne (by a LONG shot...those numbers are world's apart...1mph is a big difference in the slalom). How close is "almost the same?" I agree it's impressive for an SUV. That's what I said before. But again, neither the Magnum nor A6 are any sort of high standard for CAR performance.
I think the fact that the Cayenne , as an SUV , can outperform a lot of cars, is impressive enough.
I would agree. But as I am so inclined to do, I must mention that you pay for it. If it did all this while costing as much as an M3, instead of twice as much, I'd be a little more impressed.
The point I am trying to make is that you can have a LOT of impressive traits, but not all. You can have performance, but high cost. You can have value, but low performance. Cayenne is performance at high cost. There isn't much that offers value AND performance, which is why I keep harping on the Corvette. There are others, though.
If I pay $35 for a steak, am I going to be impressed that it tastes better than a $3 McDonalds cheeseburger? It had BETTER taste better. Should I sit around and extoll the virtues of that $35 steak? How amazing it is? IMO, no, that's why it costs $35.
Oh sure....but you have to have several cars to have all the abilities of ONE (1), Cayenne. Remember , it can handle a lot of MOAB trails ( offroad) ...then go on the freeways and out perform all SUV and most cars.....
I agree with the theory there. But you just described image. Your scenario will rarely, RARELY play out in real life. You are driving an image that has the potential to do all these great things.
Yes,,,you are right...for $100,000 , you can buy several cars....fast and comfortable.... I can even buy a motorcycle that will go 0-60 in 3 sec....but I am not sure what having several cars will mean....I only need one . And not need to change cars....
You don't need to go to the motorcycle extreme. And why settle for 5 seconds 0-60? How about a Caddy CTS-V? It'll haul as many people, go faster, handle better and go off-road just as often. And, as a side note, it'll get way better mileage. But I get the feeling that you don't have an issue with 12mpg.
I like corvettes....I may even get one...if the wife allows
I am liking them more and more over the years, since my cousin got that Z06. Did you hear about the C6 Z06?
3132lbs, 505 hp, 0-60 in 3.7 (in this class, 0-60 is less important than 0-100, 1/4 mile, or 0-150-0), 190+ top end, all for the price of a loaded Porsche Boxter S, or just under $66k. And the engine still uses pushrods! Oh the horror!
Yes...camaro can not pretend to be a luxury car...but it handles nice and is a good alternative to many sports cars....
I think I did pretty well for my $4200, in terms of overall vehicle performance. It's actually not uncomfortable to drive, just getting in and out that is so awful. And the visibility is pretty bad, too.
Highly profitable companies usually have highly loyal customers as evidenced by McDonalds, Harley, Wal-Mart and a very few others.
Porsche is a prime example of the profit/loyalty link in the automotive world.
Bob
I never said that. What I meant was I don't see the point in buying a car that is a lousy value. Now, if you feel the Cayenne is the only vehicle that provides everything you need, perceive you need, or desire, then value doesn't matter, as Cayenne is the ONLY choice. But why do I get the feeling a lot of higher end automotive decisions read like this?
I don't blindly chastise "expensive" cars if I feel they offer a lot for the money. I will say that cachet and image are LOW on my priority list, and I could never see paying for that, if that tells you anything.
But Techart, CEC, Gemballa, etc , all do modifications for Cayenne.
Something tells me that you'd be hard pressed to get anything from these guys for less than a 5 digit sum.
Plus did you know the engine for Cayenne is detuned to 450 hp.....and all they have to do is tweak it using a power chip , to get 500 hp ?
Nearly all factory turbo cars can experience substantial gains with a mere computer recalibration. This is nothing new. You speak as if Cayenne is the only vehicle with this type of option, which worries me.
lots of Porsche owners work on their own cars. I am not sure where you are taking this.
I think this needs to be defined a little further. I would be willing to bet that there are a lot more late model C5s running around that have been modified by their owner vs late model Porsches.
$700 is a lot of money for a lot of people. Now you are saying it is simple to spend money.....BTW, Cayenne and other Porsches can be recalibrated too...using similar methods.
I don't think you're following (forgive me if you are). $700 buys you the TOOL to do YOUR OWN computer recalibration (or two or 10 or 150). Something tells me that $700 in Porsche-land buys you a SINGLE RECALIBRATION from someone else! Couldn't be more different of a comparison. If I am wrong, please correct me.
seems to me you are insinuating that Porsche owners do not have intelligence ?
I should have been more clear. Are Porsche owners dumb? How could that be? Seems to me most Porsche owners are successful professionals. That obviously takes intelligence. No, the intelligence I was referring to was VEHICLE-specific. And I don't mean they would have the ability to list all the aftermarket companies available to take a blank check for some "customizations."
Maybe I'm just used to my little GM enthusiast groups where I see people modifying their cars, practically re-engineering them for certain purposes (drag racing, road racing, street machines, etc). I just don't feel that same level in Porsche land, unless you're talking about vintage Porsches. I wasn't. Who's taking their 996, getting together with their buddies with 996s and getting greasy for the day, recalibrating the computer a few times for the cam and headers they just put on, going to the track (road or strip), racing it, maybe breaking it, fixing it, going again, etc. I just can't see that happening in Porsche land. Where is the ownership experience aside from "the wave" or sitting in a parking lot with a lot of other similar cars? There's more to it than that.
maybe that is why over 67% of Porsches ever ....EVER....built are still running ?
I agree this is an impressive statistic but I wonder, first, how this is verified, and second, statistics for other makes.
...heck, even non automotive companies seek out their professional advice. It is all hush hush
The secret is have a high MSRP and offer lots of expensive options!
You keep mentioning money....$$$ signs everywhere...when all this topic is about it about the quality of products of Porsche, and the company
Oh that's right. I'm supposed to disregard money and just declare that, yes, Porsche DOES make the best vehicles in the world, for ANY cost! Would that satisfy you?
ownership of Porsches are also within your reach....and they are exotic to a point, because they are really good everyday drivers....not like the finicky Ferraris...
A friend of mine has a 85 944 (regular base model) that he can't get started. He knows I work on my own cars and has asked for my help. It might be fun to poke around an older Porsche. We'll see if this vehicle is a solid daily driver or a finicky basket case.
I get the feeling that you are just starting out, and like exotic sports cars, you like the quality, the cache, but hate the price.
I guess I feel like anybody can write a check. You can buy a lot of quality, cachet and image for some dollar amount. Some of the things I described don't work with JUST a checkbook. It almost feels like a "my butler can beat up your butler" type of world. Is this what I should aspire to?
you may one day find yourself in the position to buy not one, but any vehicle that you like.....
I sure hope so. Right now if you gave me a blank check for a car, I would probably go pickup a black or silver 300C SRT-8. There's another almost-incomprehensible bang for the buck.
NOPE...read the numbers.... 0-60.. It is currently the fastest production SUV on this planet. THe new X5 is slower, as is the Mercedes ML500. Now if you think the so called brick like Cayenne is slow, then compared it to one of America's top sports car....who is fooling who ?
Second, a mustang isn't a sports car, it's a lowly pony car.
It is always classified as a sporty car...not a exotic...but one which appeals to speed and performance enthusiasts all over America. It is not a lowly pony car...and it handles and accelerates nicely...probably better than alot of regular cars. I have never heard any one saying a mustang is a family sedan.
Shifty .. thats a pretty big brush stroke you're using ..l..o..l.......
Whether it's a Cavalier or a high mileage Aston Martin, the tall miles are gonna kill it .... Porsche.? the big miles are even worse and they ain't cheap to repair - even with tiny miles ....
Lets be honest, a Porsche is a "frame of mind", it's a status symbol for most .. and most people don't buy a Porsche for reliability, they buy it for the: "Hey, look at me.!" syndrome ..... they're kinda like a Rolex .. they're not the best in movements or reliability and they can take up to 6 weeks to fix, kinda like a Porsche ..l.o.l.... but show a Rolex and it gets big attention (except for the folks that wear a Baume Mercier, Revue Thommen or a Corum) .. but the vast majority think it's the "Fat Daddy" .. it's ego my friend, image ......
As far as the Vette's, you can sell a high mileage Vette and they're in demand (depending on the condition) and it doesn't take 2 months to unload one .... hi mileage Porsche's.? .. aaahh, that's a whole different story ... you gotta find "thee" buyer and hope and pray he's close, it has to be clean to the bone, that thing better have been in a de-humidified garage and covered with a 100 year old hand-made Amish blanket and have every service record since mile "3" because these dudes are: e-x-p-e-n-s-i-v-e for any parts and labor, "if and when" you can find a Porsche pro .. god forbid you have a failure outside of Flagstaff AZ , Macon GA or Youngstown Oh ...l.o.l.....
I know you love these dudes .. but you love them because you're a enthusiast, a driver, a Porsche person, you hang with the clubs and you do your deal, which is a wonderful thing .... that said, you're also a minority .. most buy and drive these things because of what they represent, not what they do .. kinda like a giant Rolex ................
Terry.
While some heavy cars have good lateral acceleration...it is harder for heavier, higher center of gravity vehicles to have good skidpad numbers. A 0.83 is very good for the cayenne, considering the weight and COG. Again, you are using lighter , lower center of gravity cars for comparison.... :P
BTW....the technology that you don;t understand or don;t know, is that the cayenne has an air suspension that responds to the gyroscopes. Thre are 4 of them, and the air suspension responds to them in milliseconds...helping to shift weight and balance the vehicle. .
The slalom is where physics plays a role and if a top-heavy vehicle turns in a good performance here, technology WAS a factor. But as you illustrate, a low-tech, pony car out-slalomed the Cayenne
again....thanks for comparing Cay with the mustang. ( that in and of itself is a compliment...
I agree it's impressive for an SUV. That's what I said before. But again, neither the Magnum nor A6 are any sort of high standard for CAR performance.
what ? The Magnum and A6 are nice cars.but you think they are not a high standard ? You don't think that they should, by your physics reasoning...do much better than the Cayenne ?? ... well, they are certainly cars that are lighter and has lower center of gravity than the Cayenne. And these cars....together with the BMW 3 series...all were engineered with sportiness in mind. They all have a supposedly insurmountable edge in terms of weight ( we all know how weight kills performance) and lower COG . So WHY are they not light years ahead of the ahem ....so called brick like Cayenne ?
I would agree. But as I am so inclined to do, I must mention that you pay for it. If it did all this while costing as much as an M3, instead of twice as much, I'd be a little more impressed.
oh...to you its cost again ....you keep bringing up the cost factor....again...why not get a Yugo for myself and save money and be done with it ?
The point I am trying to make is that you can have a LOT of impressive traits, but not all. You can have performance, but high cost. You can have value, but low performance. Cayenne is performance at high cost. There isn't much that offers value AND performance, which is why I keep harping on the Corvette. There are others, though.
Cayenne does have a lot of impressive traits...and that is why the initial cost is high....but the market is saturated with SUVs during a oil shortage...so resale costs may be lower. But the initial investment in the car is definitely worth it. Did you know that the computers and systems are linked together with fiber optics, instead of just copper wires ? Did you know the Cayenne has a dry sump engine..like so many exotic sports cars ? That costs money...and it is worth it.
The fun factor of the cayenne is much more than that of a Corvette....for many who have families. You get to go out with the family , and be in a sporty but safe vehicle....
I liike the corvette and mustang...don't get me wrong...but for many families they are not the ticket...IMO. The value of driving and being with your family is priceless....
As to value in terms of money...I agree , Porsches tend to cost a bit more...but they are higher in technology and safety and performance. Value for corvette in terms of performance is great...one of the best for sporty cars...but the build is not as tight as some PORSCHES, IMO. Would I get one...?
If I pay $35 for a steak, am I going to be impressed that it tastes better than a $3 McDonalds cheeseburger? It had BETTER taste better. Should I sit around and extoll the virtues of that $35 steak? How amazing it is? IMO, no, that's why it costs $35.
I understand what you are saying...it all comes down to dollars and cents to some people. Well, let me tell you....it is not all about money . You can pay $50,000 for a used corvette from 1962,,,but it doesn't even handle well... but is it worth the cost...of course...there are many ways to measure value...besides just the financial $$$$ way. Something rare...like a 1962 corvette, or quality family time in a sporty SUV....is worth the price...
I agree with the theory there. But you just described image. Your scenario will rarely, RARELY play out in real life. You are driving an image that has the potential to do all these great things.
No theory...though most cayenne owners probably will not take it offroad..( like most Rangerovers, X5 ) or like most corvettes will not go 140 mph... ;-)
Personally, it is great to go to snow country with no chains, have traction, go fast enough to enjoy the ride..then drive to the opera or concert in style...
You don't need to go to the motorcycle extreme. And why settle for 5 seconds 0-60? How about a Caddy CTS-V? It'll haul as many people, go faster, handle better and go off-road just as often. And, as a side note, it'll get way better mileage.
NO extreme....you so money is important...then why not get a moped...or Prius ? They save gas...hauls lots of people...etc...
as to the Caddy...they are nice..fewer quality and workmanship problems, and the image of being a elderly car is passe... But , no, it can not go to all the places that the Cayenne can go...
As to gas mileage...try 18 mpg....13 for city...probably what most cars get while driving spiritedly in the city...though freeway mileage is lower...hey...it is not bad for a 450 hp engine able to take 4 people and go offroad...and then go 165 mph...hmmmm caddy or cayenne....? OK>..I'll pass (not that there is anything wrong with caddy)
3132lbs, 505 hp, 0-60 in 3.7 (in this class, 0-60 is less important than 0-100, 1/4 mile, or 0-150-0), 190+ top end, all for the price of a loaded Porsche Boxter S, or just under $66k.
Nice car...but only seats 2....for all that metal...hmmm... It would be a great personal car...adults only...but I'll pass . The cayenne can do most of what a corvette will be used for, plus the added bonus of carrying family and friends to snow country....
I hear that the new Tribeca (?) has a 250 hp engine and can seat 7....that is nice....just right for families and with a sporty bent....
I thought you had a fx35 or 45 ?
I think the Porsche sedan is going to be nice..but it would be nicer if the price was more friendly...
it would probably be less expensive to maintain the corvette....
but at some point, it seems like either the owner loses interest, or the car gives up ? which one is it ? I don't know.
Porsche enthusiasts are the majority....and that is why they have the high stat of over 67% of all Porsches ever produced are still running on the roadways today.......that is not one year....but EVER !!! This may be a testament to either the durability of the car...or the preserverance and fanaticism of the owner. Which one I am not sure...but maybe it is the owner's love of the brand...my guess...
sorry about the catch up/.... I can't respond due to work following me...
as to the stat...I read it in the Porsche Cayenne book.....OK...it is published by someone who benefits from the info...I don;;t know how they got the info.. but I doubt if they sat down and counted each one....
Randy
________
Porsche has learned quite a lot from GM in the past seeing as they poached a few of their top people along with people from many other companies.
The idea for the 986/996 engine construction came from a Ford V6 engine Porsche developed to Ford specs.
Porsche is a car manufacturer and they import and employ people from all around the world that worked for many different companies before Porsche. These people bring their expertise and knowledge with them.
If you want to see the gap in racing between the Corvette and Porsche go to Le Mans.
The Corvettes battle with Ferrari 550s and 575s whilst Porsche GT-3s bring up the rear.
The battle of Le Mans 2004 was the Corvette Ferrari battle that went right down to the final laps with Corvette winning.
The Sarthe circuit is quite a fair circuit allowing those who miss out in one area to pick up in another. It is a long lap. The Corvettes just blasted past the GT-3s (different class by the way) like they were standing still. The sound of the Corvette was the best of the racing cars present.
I want to go to Le Mans and cheer my team up at the front not the back and this is centre of my disappointment with Porsche today and has been since they abandoned racing in 1998.
The CGT is not brilliant engineering either. In fact it is quite old technology, ala GT-1. In parts the CGT is tacky and the clutch sucks but that is another story.
If you want technology look at the BMW Camshaft less engines, SMGII transmissions, look at the F1 based Ferrari Enzo where modern technology has been incorporated.
Look at the new Ferraris. At least they make them look new and not reconstituted.
Porsche excel in engine design no question.
However there is much more to car than just an engine and for this they are seriously behind.
This new Vette whilst not my cup of tea either, is going to seriously hurt Porsche in the sales department especially if they bring it to Le Mans and it performs like its older sisters have.
GM are putting a bit of an effort into a number of European racing series this year. DAMs of Cadillac fame at Le Mans are heavily involved. This will also help sales and promote the new Vette in Europe.
Ciao,
Adrian
____________
Randy, at some point I hope to get to some testimonials from Porsche owners who have owned several Vettes and claim the latter are junk. Fair balance, you know.
;-)
And speaking of good handling SUVs, the Tribeca is also very good, as they benchmarked the BMW X5.
Bob
Another example I saw at a previous race was a Neon SRT. It would absolutely fly down the straights, and then bob and pogo coming into the corners while it hiked its rear end up like a cheap hooker on a Saturday night.
Anyway, from a performance standpoint, to me the poise and feel of a Porsche make up for any deficiencies in the numbers.
That last comment says a lot about Porsche to me, ignore the numbers and it's about poise or feel, intangibles. I really don't think I dislike the Porsche brand, I appreciate too much what I see them accomplish on the track to ignore them. I think it is just the attitude that comes with some of them, my one Porsche owning friend, notes that he and many others are Porcupines (inside Porsche joke). I am not what I would term, polished, sure Corp VP type, leading edge of baby boom, lots of gray, with enough disposable income to have fun. But, every time I go to a Porsche dealer I get ignored, now the blue jeans and t-shirt don't help but hey, that's what I put on when not in a suit. I will give them credit, they are probably making a good evaluation, I'm not about to spend for image.
As to the bottom of the barrel picking on an old, looked "used" brown or bronze, ugly in my view, 911 that could use more care was low, but where else would anyone care? At least I didn't stop to take a pic.
One can throw the "poseur" gauntlet at ANY make of car---buyers of all stripes do it---what is a bit sad though is when a product that is entirely mediocre top to bottom and can be proven so, lives entirely off its image. This is a prime example of the gullibility that is made possible through shrewd, relentless and big bucks marketing.
I'll use a non-car, non-bike example----some of the "designer jeans" for $100 a pair. A few fit very well, are well made, but many are just $19 jeans with a label and not one tiny bit more than that. How do they get away with that?
I can only presume that the manufacturer set off such a "flash bulb" of propaganda that the buyer is blinded by it. In a way I am impressed that it can be pulled off, but on the other hand I want no part of products like that myself.
So I guess what I'm driving at is that "performance" can be called a kind of "value", even if that performance comes at a price. Ferrari is great for this. You can't BUY that experience anywhere else. You can go as fast, you can look as good, but you can't buy what it's like to drive a Ferrari---it is totally unique.
But image is hard to justify as "value", except to the ego, (social value??) and really now, a slick jacket or pants, a kiss or a good haircut can stroke an ego for a lot less than thousands and thousands of dollars. I can't imagine an ego so deflated that it takes huge sums of money to pump it up, but, hey...it's a crazy world ain't it?
As for the most obnoxious owners, it's not Porsche or an American car make, but alas I can't say--but they are runaway winners in this category. :P
Bud, thats what make the world go around -- "the brand name" and what it means to most buyers .... the best example is Sea Ray boats .. highly regarded by JD Powers (that's a joke) with a huge dealer network and a huge market of boats from 18 to 65ft ..
But those who really know boats, been water side more than 2 seasons and actually use their boat instead of a liquor-stand, know they can buy a Cobalt, Chaparral, Monterey or even a Rinker for $15,000/$55,000 less, and still get a better boat as far as reliability, longevity and fit and finish - but they don't have the "name" or the brand recognition ..... but as in the car biz, so goes most of the retail business ...........
Terry.
Boat comparisons are trickier than cars in that respect. I mean, a Swan is very nice but will it perform any better or feel any better in the water than a C&C or some such? I don't think so. But a Ferrari experience is not reproducible, you can't buy it anywhere else for any price, high or low. So there's the difference. But of course you have to like, and want, the Ferrari experience.
It's the old argument. If you can't taste the difference, don't buy the more expensive brand. If NOBODY can taste the difference, then get REAL suspicious that it may be a hoax.
BETTER EXAMPLE THAN JEANS:
Bottled water. Now here we have a product with NO provable, measurable difference in taste or quality. Time and time again, in blind tastings, 99% of all people fail to pick out the bottled water, and time and time again, lab tests show it no purer than good clean municipal water from a first world country's water supply. In other words, both the subjective experience AND the "facts on paper" suggest that there is nothing real about bottled water except the label showing the fresh mountain stream cascading from the Alps
So there's a example of "the rich fool" theory that might actually work....except that it's only $2 for us to become fools, not $100,000.
So it's like this with me:---the other day I get to drive this Porsche 911 AWD twin turbo coupe. Now, I in fact, do not think this car is the Porsche model to buy---it's too expensive, depreciation is high; however, I have to admit that 415 HP screaming behind my right ear is really fun, and no car I have yet driven will duplicate that "experience"----so at least experiencially, the buyer is getting something unique for his money----and performance ain't shabby either.
Could I go faster for less money? Sure, I think so, a bit faster. Would I look as good? Probably not. Would it "feel" the same. No. Is all that worth $20K-$30K? Buyer's call.
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
But, I just pay for it... The water that I drink comes out of the tap... maybe, through the filter in the refrigerator, if I'm patient enough..
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
Shifty, you seem stuck on $20k to $30k, compared to what? I went to Edmunds for an AWD, Turbo 911 and what I found started at $131k and had an 8 page option list that started at $8k, each line item. Are we talking about the base model without any options? Do they come with sales tax? That could be $10k of difference right out the door. I have no argument that the driving experience is unique, but trying to make out that the cost is even close, greater than $50k is more like it and $80k is probably realistic. BTW, the cab starts at $141k, tried looking for the lower priced AWD, turbo.
Randy
I don't think this will be too hard.
Yeah, but what does Consumer Reports say? :P
Also they mentioned some very funny observations about the "porsche caste system", how they grade their models and add features to each successively expensive model, so that you buy the base model and still feel poor and deprived of something. Very amusing stuff.
They say: "there's no bones in ice cream" ....
Terry.
You just answered your own questions ... just fill in the blanks ...
Terry.
Porsche charges more for most options than Merc/BMW/Audi so this adds to the bottom line.
Harley Davidson is similar. I believe the average customer adds 20-30% to the cost of their HD in options to set their bike apart from others.
"We could easily envision Wiedeking hawking Porsches on TV in a Cal Worthington-style TV commercial (complete with cowboy hat), asking folks to "come on down" to the local Porsche dealer - "We have acres and acres of Porsches to move on outta here!"
Scroll down at link below.
http://www.autoextremist.com/page6.shtml
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Porsche 4-door might work, good competitor to the only other really exciting 4 door car made currently, BMW.
Bob
That and the development costs that have kept Porsche out of big-time racing for five long years
That at least is changing and there's a new Porsche endurance racer coming and it'll be campaigned by none other than Roger Penske (of 917/30 fame.)
IMO if Porsche was going to build a wagon it should've been like th last wagon they built=>
A lot prettier than a Cayenne!
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I see the Panamera 4 door sedan (with coupe and convertible variants) as a natural extension of the Porsche line. Further 911/Boxster based models will also add strength to the brand. The Cayenne IMO is a misfit.
Doubling or tripling sales in a short time while maintaining the exclusive Porsche image will be challenging.
I had assumed they were using the new water cooled block everywhere.
I agree wholeheartedly....
I understand what the naysayers mean when they snicker at the cayenne....
I felt the same way when I first received news of the vehicle....
but after driving it and seeing it perform.....I am a believer...so much that I bought one....over a 911 or any other Porsche or SUV out there....( OK...I did shop for a 928 for a long time....)
I also agree that the Porsche sedan must out perform the BMW M series....it already does on looks alone....
Still enjoying my Porsche product.....