It is easy for me: I like Japanese cars. I love the new IS. The 3-series styling is OK, but the interior just seems old - even when brand new. The IS's interior is very nice and modern. Add in my primary driving area, and the IS is the better car.
I just test drove the 330i/325i and IS350/IS250. The 330i just simply offered a better driving experience. The Lexus IS felt very nice, it is a big improvement. I really enjoyed the extremely powerful engine. But IMO, they haven't matched BMW's level of "driver enjoyment" Lexus still isolates you, but they are getting close to perfection. I really did enjoy the luxurious interior of the IS. But if I were to buy sport sedan, the 330i will be on the top of my list. To me, it offers enough luxury, comfort and pure enjoyment to be my perfect sport sedan.
Keep in mind, folks, that comment ("you are in the minority...") was only directed at the interior of the car, not the overall car/driving experience. I overheard folks talking about "this car is HOW MUCH? It sure doesn't look like it!". While, this was at a car show, and people couldn't drive them, they had a good long look at the interiors, with the cars in the "ON" position or whatever (electronics were on, engine wasn't). I didn't hear comments about the Lexus, because I wasn't interested in it as much, mainly because it is so small for my 6'5" frame. (Turns out that the BMW 3 was too:-()
My point here, is that people at the show were strictly focused on the styling and interiors of the cars, not the driving experience. And the commentary on the 3-series wasn't that great for $44,000 (I don't know what options it had, but for $44,000 I bet it was pretty well dressed up.).
Let me repeat, there is no doubt in my mind that the BMW is the sportier car, better for handling and corner-carving than ANY Lexus.
Great - now we've established that people buy the brand, just because they like the brand. I like that thinking...one doesn't have to justify why they like the brand...they just do.
I agree. I simply am under the impression that BMW has more prestige and badge prowess, and, it does. More people out there that want their first BMW than there are that want their first Lexus.
What I love most about the 3 series, is how it will make everyday driving fun. The IS is fun to drive, and it offers a high dose of luxury. But if I were looking for a sports sedan, the 3 series is the best IMO. It really depends on what I'm looking for. If I was looking for a powerful and luxurious sedan, the IS will be on top.
thegraduate: My friend just bought that Lexus ES...Camr :P He bought it because of the badge. He told me he wanted a Lexus, and not a Toyota. Well at least he got a Lexus.
thegraduate: My friend just bought that Lexus ES...Camr
Yep. My girlfriend's mom wanted a Lexus GX470 b/c: She drove a 4Runner V8 and LOVED it, and told her husband that she wanted one, just in Lexus form. (Her husband is GM at Tom Williams Porsche-Audi, so he is always driving home luxury demos). She had to drive a Camry XLE (4-cyl) demo while her GX was in the shop; she hated it! Pesky Toyotas...ha
We can still debate until dawn on this topic and nobody cares if I WIN or you WIN...The real winner is the one (Lexus or BMW)who will generate the most profit with its products.. If Lexus enjoy their success offered to consumers they could care less about what you say or think.
I never said that I bought the IS for the hp (though it does make it very fun to pass people on the highway!)
I even said I like the 3 series but the IS to me was just as enjoyable, all things considered, and I liked the looks better, a far cry from your position of "my opinion is the only one that counts and if you don't agree with me you're an idiot"
I never challenged you on the fact you thought the IS was better for you. I challenged the notion that it was the "better" car because it had a bigger engine and JD said Lexus was more reliable than BMW as a manufacturer.
I would like to see the IS 350 and BMW 330i go head to head around the Nurburgring.
Who else thinks that would be a good match up. IF the IS won that, would people think differently, or, instead does it not matter because the 330i handling still 'feels' better?
Someone mentioned that Autobytel was a little known and irrelevant website.
Autobytel runs a website for ESPN ("ESPN Cars, powered by Autobytel"), has an American website, Norwegian website, Japanese website, and UK website. They are I suppose, the equivalent of Edmunds.
The article clearly has as much relevance as a review by Edmunds and co., whether or not you have heard of them.
Okay. Let's do two tracks. Nurburgring and the track where the 330 beat out the G35. We can then tell where raw speed rules and where the ability to run the vehicles through curves rules. Then let's do it again when the new engine gets released by BMW and then we can tell what happens when horsepower is integrated into the chassis.
I own both a BMW and a Lexus. I enjoy both cars in their own way but I must say, if I had to choose one over the other it would be the lexus--just a better car overall for me. A bit better handling is fine and fun, but it does'nt quite make up for the beauty, quality of workmanship, better navigation system, stereo (Mark Levinson), and superior horsepower of the Lexus. We're still talking about sedans here after all, but of course if we were talking about a pure sport vehicle, or when the 335i comes out...the balance may tilt.
A bit better handling is fine agreed,nod goes to 3 series for those who care and fun agreed, but it does'nt quite make up for the beauty nod goes to 3 series, quality of workmanship both are fairly equal in that reqard, better navigation system agreed for those who care about nav, stereo (Mark Levinson) again agreed for those who care, and superior horsepower of the Lexus again, one can never win horsepower wars."
IMO the only "beautiful" car in the BMW product line is the 6-series.
Anywho, as far as racing, it will be fun to see the soon-to-come V8 M3 and V8 IS500 to go toe-to-toe. Here, I am sure that Lexus will have full VDIM off and manual tranny since that is the market they are going for!
You know, if I didn't care about the nav or the ML, I believe I would prefer the BMW. But I drive over 4,000 miles a month away from home and these two items become very important. The extra reliability is important too, because obviously I cannot lease. But Lexus doesn't really have a single true sport car, no M-equivalent :mad: , so when I turn in my present BMW at the end of this year I'm getting the the Z4M or M Coupe--now there is car Lexus cannot compete with.
To the one who questioned the credibility of the article giving the IS 350 Best New Entry Lux Car of the Year since there was a Lexus banner ad at the top when he was on the site: When I went on today to read the article there was an Infiniti banner ad advertising rates to lease or finance a G35; yes, at the top and at the side in the context of an Editor's choice award to a Lexus IS 350! I suppose you should say now that the article DOES have credibility! Right?
exus looks like it's trying to top the success of its IS range by taking the roof off! The Japanese brand is working on an all-new CC version of its executive car. We can also exclusively reveal the firm is working on a sporty coupé version powered by a monster V10.
When it hits showrooms, the CC will rival Volvo's all-new C70 and the forthcoming BMW 3-Series Convertible. Like the Swedish and German models, the Japanese car will feature a clever three-piece folding set-up when it arrives in summer.
However, there's more than the CC on the way from Lexus
. Toyota's luxury arm is clearly targeting its European rivals by developing a sporty coupé version of the IS, too. Featuring more pronounced rear haunches, the two-door will have a much more aggressive stance than the model it's based on, but feature the same distinctive face as the standard four-door car.
According to company insiders, Lexus is also working on the storming 4.0-litre V10 engine to ensure top-end IS models go as well as they look. With 400bhp, it would rival Audi's RS4 and the new BMW M3. It could be offered in both saloon and coupé bodystyles.
That is a bogus statement, but I respond. If you like luxury so much get a nice couch, audio system and Playstation, for the money saved you can take limousine to workJ If I remember correctly in on of the Lexus TV advertisings, last year I believe, they showed a nice couch (the best money can buy) turning in to a Lexus, or something like that. That what Lexus is all about, in your face luxury.
Actually, I happened to drive WRX Sti extensively and while it is fast, I did not feel as connected to the road as in BMW.
Well I guess I consider my self in the 20% that does enjoy driving and can tell the difference. And I’m not talking about taking a sharp turn at high speed, BMW makes you feel connected to the road and to the car. You actual drive BMW, while in Lexus you are being driven. I actually tired of hearing this “most people” argument, I’m not most people and I don’t think you are. Most people are driving Camrys and Accords.
While you might be right about the interior, I have to disagree on the interior. I and many others think that it’s much better then IS.
If you don’t like BMW styling, by any means don’t buy it. I can not change your opinion, it is to subjective.
People buy cars for different reasons, what I need in sport sedan is the following:
1. Driving dynamics, handling, manual tyranny, and so forth. 2. Styling 3. Leather, sunroof, power seats and windows, climate control, Bluetooth and an okay audio system. I can’t care less about navigation system and other gadgets.
I don’t think anyone here said that people only buy BMW because it’s the best car to drive. People buy it for different reasons: Luxury, image, BMW badge, driving dynamics and many other reasons. I think the same reasons as buying Lexus, maybe except driving dynamics and road feel.
Very interesting point of view, I can care less if Lexus or BMW make money or not. I don’t care if they go out of business, I don’t work for ether one and being that both foreign companies, there would be no impact on US economy. The only problem if BMW is out of business there will be nothing good to drive for around 35-40K J
If it’s that simple, what are you arguing about? Just check all auto manufacturers Statements of Income and you got your winner. Who cares what kind of cars they make as long as profits are high, right?
"both foreign companies, there would be no impact on US economy."
Perhaps somebody with a greater knowledge of the business Toyota has in the US - plants employing american auto workers, dealerships, money spent on advertising to US companies, etc. - can blow that arguement out of the water?
One thing that really tickles my bone was when one of saleswomen at Laurel BMW of Westmont told me that I should not be worried about the quality of 3-series because they are all built in Europe (most of them in Germany) and not a single one got assembled here in US or other parts of the world. She did not say it directly but I knew she means to say cars built in Europe are safe from bugs ...That woman was just an idiot. She thought I am stupid not knowing how reliable BMW was. FYI..Acura has the final assembly point in US for TL model and it is one of the best cars out there in term of quality...I also heard that Acura has some plants in Ontario, Canada as well but not sure. Indeed, companies like Ford, GM, do not represent the skills of American workers...
TL one of the best built cars? I have heard otherwise from the TL forums; the dashboard fades to grey, the bumpers are different shades than the body, rattles...
It does not matter were the car is build, it’s who builds it. Good example would be MB, they always assembled in Germany using top grade materials. First they were built proof and know they suck. You right BMW does not have the best reliability record, however it’s not a manufacturers thread. 3 series happens to be the most reliable BMW and above average overall, good enough for me. I had the car for a year and no problems.
BMWs are built in South Carolina and are creating American jobs(as if that really matters to me as a Canadian). :confuse:
And if it did matter I would buy the predecessor to the Lexus philosophy: A Buick manufactured in Detroit.
This discussion is becoming somewhat degenerated with all this senseless focus on profit margins and where cars are made. In fact the financials of BMW are awesome. But that is certainly not the reason why I would choose to buy a BMW. Nor would I buy the shares of either Toyota or BMW since they are both overpriced.
Pink What? Sounds like just another brick in the wall to me... Never heard of them. Perhaps they were just eclipsed by the better known bands out there.
#1045 of 1045 Re: What's the fuss, let us make peace [dewey] by mikegiller Mar 16, 2006 (8:19 pm) Replying to: dewey (Mar 16, 2006 8:05 pm)
Pink What? Sounds like just another brick in the wall to me... Never heard of them. Perhaps they were just eclipsed by the better known bands out there.
Why there is a split of opinion regarding which car guys like better...I am sure the majority of women out there would love to seat next to their men in a Lexus....None of the girls I've known or once dated had any impression with BMW despite the fact that when we went out for fun together on my friend's 2002 325xi quite many times. When some of my ladies friends had a chance to see the new Lexus and got inside...I could tell the level of excitement showing on their face. ...My gf told me it would be foolish to open up a wallet and pay close to $38k just to get a car that has an interior that looks no better than the Nissan Sentra...I just can't agree with her more.
both foreign companies, there would be no impact on US economy."
Perhaps somebody with a greater knowledge of the business Toyota has in the US - plants employing american auto workers, dealerships, money spent on advertising to US companies, etc. - can blow that arguement out of the water?
My mistake and you are correct my post 1043 does not make sense. I was just responding to Mike Giller's above statement thinking that he was suggesting Toyota is more worthy because they create more US jobs.
It appears that is not the case! I just dropped by here last night and had difficulty finding the time to read thoroughly the 100s of new posts posted here these past 24 hours.
Comments
I just test drove the 330i/325i and IS350/IS250. The 330i just simply offered a better driving experience. The Lexus IS felt very nice, it is a big improvement. I really enjoyed the extremely powerful engine. But IMO, they haven't matched BMW's level of "driver enjoyment" Lexus still isolates you, but they are getting close to perfection. I really did enjoy the luxurious interior of the IS. But if I were to buy sport sedan, the 330i will be on the top of my list. To me, it offers enough luxury, comfort and pure enjoyment to be my perfect sport sedan.
Keep in mind, folks, that comment ("you are in the minority...") was only directed at the interior of the car, not the overall car/driving experience. I overheard folks talking about "this car is HOW MUCH? It sure doesn't look like it!". While, this was at a car show, and people couldn't drive them, they had a good long look at the interiors, with the cars in the "ON" position or whatever (electronics were on, engine wasn't). I didn't hear comments about the Lexus, because I wasn't interested in it as much, mainly because it is so small for my 6'5" frame. (Turns out that the BMW 3 was too:-()
My point here, is that people at the show were strictly focused on the styling and interiors of the cars, not the driving experience. And the commentary on the 3-series wasn't that great for $44,000 (I don't know what options it had, but for $44,000 I bet it was pretty well dressed up.).
Let me repeat, there is no doubt in my mind that the BMW is the sportier car, better for handling and corner-carving than ANY Lexus.
People think the BMW is a really nice car also. With 306 hp it seems most people who buy the "L" might be poseurs.
Anybody see all the ES-series Camr...I mean Lexus' on the road? He's right...
thegraduate: My friend just bought that Lexus ES...Camr :P
He bought it because of the badge. He told me he wanted a Lexus, and not a Toyota. Well at least he got a Lexus.
I am happy for you.
Yep. My girlfriend's mom wanted a Lexus GX470 b/c: She drove a 4Runner V8 and LOVED it, and told her husband that she wanted one, just in Lexus form. (Her husband is GM at Tom Williams Porsche-Audi, so he is always driving home luxury demos). She had to drive a Camry XLE (4-cyl) demo while her GX was in the shop; she hated it! Pesky Toyotas...ha
Remember, just because one opinion says one thing (yours), noone's opinion on which car is better is "RIGHT."
You forgot to put IMO
We can still debate until dawn on this topic and nobody cares if I WIN or you WIN...The real winner is the one (Lexus or BMW)who will generate the most profit with its products.. If Lexus enjoy their success offered to consumers they could care less about what you say or think.
I even said I like the 3 series but the IS to me was just as enjoyable, all things considered, and I liked the looks better, a far cry from your position of "my opinion is the only one that counts and if you don't agree with me you're an idiot"
I never challenged you on the fact you thought the IS was better for you. I challenged the notion that it was the "better" car because it had a bigger engine and JD said Lexus was more reliable than BMW as a manufacturer.
Who else thinks that would be a good match up. IF the IS won that, would people think differently, or, instead does it not matter because the 330i handling still 'feels' better?
Autobytel runs a website for ESPN ("ESPN Cars, powered by Autobytel"), has an American website, Norwegian website, Japanese website, and UK website. They are I suppose, the equivalent of Edmunds.
The article clearly has as much relevance as a review by Edmunds and co., whether or not you have heard of them.
Anywho, as far as racing, it will be fun to see the soon-to-come V8 M3 and V8 IS500 to go toe-to-toe. Here, I am sure that Lexus will have full VDIM off and manual tranny since that is the market they are going for!
I mean, if it were not for that you would have?
Now IS blows top
exus looks like it's trying to top the success of its IS range by taking the roof off! The Japanese brand is working on an all-new CC version of its executive car. We can also exclusively reveal the firm is working on a sporty coupé version powered by a monster V10.
When it hits showrooms, the CC will rival Volvo's all-new C70 and the forthcoming BMW 3-Series Convertible. Like the Swedish and German models, the Japanese car will feature a clever three-piece folding set-up when it arrives in summer.
However, there's more than the CC on the way from Lexus
. Toyota's luxury arm is clearly targeting its European rivals by developing a sporty coupé version of the IS, too. Featuring more pronounced rear haunches, the two-door will have a much more aggressive stance than the model it's based on, but feature the same distinctive face as the standard four-door car.
According to company insiders, Lexus is also working on the storming 4.0-litre V10 engine to ensure top-end IS models go as well as they look. With 400bhp, it would rival Audi's RS4 and the new BMW M3. It could be offered in both saloon and coupé bodystyles.
Peter Lyon
Article from: Auto Express
Actually, I happened to drive WRX Sti extensively and while it is fast, I did not feel as connected to the road as in BMW.
I actually tired of hearing this “most people” argument, I’m not most people and I don’t think you are. Most people are driving Camrys and Accords.
If you don’t like BMW styling, by any means don’t buy it. I can not change your opinion, it is to subjective.
People buy cars for different reasons, what I need in sport sedan is the following:
1. Driving dynamics, handling, manual tyranny, and so forth.
2. Styling
3. Leather, sunroof, power seats and windows, climate control, Bluetooth and an okay audio system. I can’t care less about navigation system and other gadgets.
I know, I was just backing you up.
If it’s that simple, what are you arguing about? Just check all auto manufacturers Statements of Income and you got your winner. Who cares what kind of cars they make as long as profits are high, right?
Perhaps somebody with a greater knowledge of the business Toyota has in the US - plants employing american auto workers, dealerships, money spent on advertising to US companies, etc. - can blow that arguement out of the water?
moving on
Yes and I was highly unimpressed, in fact very disappointed.
The drive reminded me of that Pink Floyd song(a band that was popular during my youth) called "Comfortably Numb".
After driving it I was so thankful to drive off with my old and dated manual BMW.
BMWs are built in South Carolina and are creating American jobs(as if that really matters to me as a Canadian). :confuse:
And if it did matter I would buy the predecessor to the Lexus philosophy: A Buick manufactured in Detroit.
This discussion is becoming somewhat degenerated with all this senseless focus on profit margins and where cars are made. In fact the financials of BMW are awesome. But that is certainly not the reason why I would choose to buy a BMW. Nor would I buy the shares of either Toyota or BMW since they are both overpriced.
Replying to: dewey (Mar 16, 2006 8:05 pm)
Pink What? Sounds like just another brick in the wall to me... Never heard of them. Perhaps they were just eclipsed by the better known bands out there.
NICE :shades:
Perhaps somebody with a greater knowledge of the business Toyota has in the US - plants employing american auto workers, dealerships, money spent on advertising to US companies, etc. - can blow that arguement out of the water?
My mistake and you are correct my post 1043 does not make sense. I was just responding to Mike Giller's above statement thinking that he was suggesting Toyota is more worthy because they create more US jobs.
It appears that is not the case! I just dropped by here last night and had difficulty finding the time to read thoroughly the 100s of new posts posted here these past 24 hours.