Did you recently rush to buy a new vehicle before tariff-related price hikes? A reporter is looking to speak with shoppers who felt pressure to act quickly due to expected cost increases; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com for more details by 4/24.
Ah HA! Thank you for the clarification. So they sold a few less in total, but there were also less "sales days". From what I understand, Honda just reports the raw numbers, not adjusted for "sales days", so the two companies might be almost identical.
I must confess I do not understand why they adjust the numbers for sales days. Isn't this concept a little obsolete? I mean, I don't know of any dealership any more that is closed on Sundays, which is what I assume the "sales days" exclude.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Ford has its own constrictions on batteries and components which I understand from other sources limits them to about 2000 units a month. I think they are looking at SAFT/Johnson Controls in order to increase their battery supply opportunities.
It appears to me that they planned to ship the same amount as last year, about 180,000 units, but didn't foresee a jump in demand to well over 200,000 units.
You two can spin the lower Prius sales this year anyway you like. The bottom line is they have sold 3100 less through June of this year than last. If what the two of you are saying is true, Toyota planned on selling less Prius this year than last. That does not make logical sense with the sales figures for last year and the jump in gas prices over the last 12 months. I don't think Toyota wants to sell anymore hybrids than they have to for that green image to remain. It seems that Toyota was talking about a million Prius a year back in 2005. They will be lucky to build half that many World wide, if the figures are correct. They are not big sellers in the EU. So Japan must be getting more than the USA.
Gary says, "If what the two of you are saying is true, Toyota planned on selling less Prius this year than last."
Your comments are just becoming more and more befuddling. Where do you come up with this stuff?
How many times do I have to say "unexpected (U N E X P E C T E D) demand" because of the cost of gasoline struck ALL CARMAKERS, not just 'Yota. If you notice, even GM and others said they don't have enough small cars for the demand. And they don't even have to DEAL with batteries !!!
It was an UNEXPECTED (meaning impossible to plan for) battery shortage.
And yes, Toyota has "planned on selling a Million HYBRIDS a year" - Not your mistaken comment of a "million PRIUSES a year" for a long time.
But the have always said "in the decade 2010 forward" for that projection. Not now, not with only the few hybrids they have available in their fleet now.
They are talking about in the FUTURE when they have the hybrid option available on almost all their cars.
( Gary - A Compliment For You: You are very good at twisting things around and inserting an assumption here and there based on partial info, or on one piece of info combined with another similar but unrelated piece of info. If there were a profession which required that talent, you would be the best at it. !!! )
And you topped it of with the most whammy of all whammies:
Gary says, "I don't think Toyota wants to sell anymore hybrids than they have to for that green image to remain."
Pure, unsupported speculation, impossible to prove or disprove. Your opinion, of course, and AGAIN, one which is shared by no one else at the CarSpace Forums. In that way, you are unique.
How many times do I have to say "unexpected (U N E X P E C T E D) demand" because of the cost of gasoline struck ALL CARMAKERS, not just 'Yota.
Yet again you have your facts screwed up. Toyota has NOT sold as MANY Prius this year as LAST YEAR. What you are saying is they thought last year was the peak for the Prius. That this year they would not be able to sell as many as last year.
READ the Toyota sales through June of 2008. They have sold Less of their best mileage car than they sold last year. That is piss poor planning or they did it on purpose. Or does it take more batteries to build fewer cars this year than it did last year. Keep spinning your hole is getting deeper and deeper....
They are within 2000 units of being exactly on the same number as last year. We'll revisit this subject at the end of the year.
The rest of the commentary is well......silly. But wait a minute maybe it's not silly. It may be that you've hit on something I've been mentioning for several months now. Every Prius sold in the UK generates $10000-$15000 more revenue for the manufacturer than if it were sold here!!!!!
Wha's that you say?
From my days in the steel business currency fluctuations made a HUGE impact on sales and which country got what. With the US$ tanking daily Toyota is losing $2000 - $4000 on every $20000 vehicle shipped here. When the US$ are converted and reported as a sale the net 'loss' is $2-$4000. But in the UK where the pound is a lot stronger they don't lose this money.....in addition in the UK they sell the same $28000 sold here for about $40000!!!!!
If this was my former company then the US market would have been shut out back in January until the US$ recovered. I can definitely see the Japanese directing more and more sales to Europe and Asia and Canada and away from the US as the US$ becomes more and more worthless. That's just a business decision.
It's not a whole lot different than the oil producers and traders are doing on a daily basis. I'll go farther. When the new 09s are intro'd in Oct, I estimate that there will be a $1000 price increase due to currency factors, increased demand and higher shipping costs. For the 2010's next year, another bump and less availability, if the US$ doesn't recover.
Every Prius sold here vs being sold for example in the UK generates $10000-$15000 less revenue for the manufacturer!!!!!
That argument I would buy wholeheartedly. We are the cheap guys on the planet. This whole post makes more sense than any of the "Toyota just did not know" the demand, argument. It is another reason we get the dregs from the other automakers also. It may mean that the Prius numbers will drop until Toyota starts building them here, Canada or Mexico. The falling dollar will put US made cars on a better plane than foreign built ones. The VW Jetta TDI built in Mexico will be competitive on every level. How long before Toyota starts building the Prius in NA?
Allegedly talks about doing it just east of San Diego......... :surprise:
Actually I've read NUMMI which makes sense from a market location pov. But it's just speculation. It makes a lot of sense since the Prius will continue to grow and grow but currency issues may make it not worthwhile to continue to import here.
Kentucky is a natural too since it currently makes the TCH and it's centrally located.
I bet they start building Prius at NUMMI just as soon as they can possibly swing it. Problem is that the battery production line they are setting up is in Japan, so I guess they would still have to ship the batteries over to the California assembly line?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Ahnold would not let them build batteries in California anyway. I would have figured that plant to be going great guns with the Matrix and Vibe. It would make more sense to convert the San Antonio plant to hybrids and give up the Full sized PU business :shades:
They already have all their illegal workers trained in San Antonio. :sick:
It doesn't build the Matrix, only the Vibe. The Matrix gets built in Canada.
I wonder if they could boot the Vibe out of there and build Prius instead. California is Prius' biggest market, of course, and it does make some sense for them to produce the car as close as possible to its biggest market...
Toyota should have started building its own battery packs sooner than this. I think the reason they didn't is because they had hopes that Li-Ion would make more and quicker advances than it has.
I talked to a salesman at the local dealership last night, and he said they currently have 78 people on their waiting list for Prius. He said that some, when they come in and discover that they can't drive home in a Prius, just suck up anything else on the lot that makes high mileage. So Corollas are pretty much out of stock, as are Yarii. Matrix doesn't sell as well, because its mileage isn't up there with Corolla, despite having the same engines. So it makes quite a contrast - they had several rows of Matrix but only two Yarii, about four Corollas, and one Prius with a "SOLD!" sign in the window.
They also had a fair number of Camry hybrids.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I personally find Toyota relying almost solely on its past reputation to maintain its sales number. With the newfound poor fit-finish, dozen recalls and Honda catching up, I wonder if the empire is finally losing its grip on the market... A local dealer had over a dozen visits from customers who came back because their Camrys' door handles fell off!!! The moment the customer explained the problem the guy at the shop only said "omg, not another one." Other common, albeit less frequent complaints include misaligned headlights, doors and trunk, non-working lightbulbs.
And if this were true.... the one thing that the anti-Toyota troops don't understand is that everyone acknowledges that no vehicle maker ever makes absolutely perfect vehicles 100% of the time.
But the key to keeping customers coming back is to address the problem right away, fix it and make sure it never occurs again. When this happens then those that have had a problem forget about it. Who cares. I had two minor recalls last year, both were fixed during normal OCI visits. I was never inconvenienced in any way.
Actually all vehicle makers are really really good now. Most of these issues that were plagues in the past are behind them, Dexcool, sludge, ignition fires. No vehicle maker was EVER perfect in the past. None are now. As long as the issue is handled in a customer-friendly manner the customer will remain loyal.
The only "hole getting deeper" is the one where people are in it trying to understand your points, Gary.
I did not say 2007 was the "peak year" for the Prius, and 'Yota of COURSE DID NOT THINK 2007 was the "peak year" for the Prius. That would be idiotic of them. They know the future is hybrids and variations thereof.
Here are the problems for you Gary and why the two of us bang heads so often on 'Yota issues:
1. You have a grudge from 1964 against 'Yota for that Lemon Land Crusher you bought and you cannot get over it. 2. A long time ago you "latched on" to the Prius being a "loss leader" and you, in spite of EVERY SINGLE PIECE of PROVEN EVIDENCE against that being true, continue to cling to that false belief. So you fall back on your base false belief by your new argument, which is "'Yota is selling fewer Priuses in the USA because they are not making money on them." It would be a FINE argument, were it true. But it ain't, so it ain't. 3. Your biggie is "'Yota is not green." And you AGAIN have chosen that view probably alone in the whole world. There is not a shred (not a SINGLE SHRED) of evidence that 'Yota is not as green as everyone has pinned them out to be. In your mind, anyway, you see some sort of alternate reality where 'Yota has not won dozens of green car awards from various and sundry enviro groups (whom you hate and don't trust ANYWAY either, which reinforces your false reality that 'Yota is not green) and let me ask you one thing: If 'Yota is not green, where are all the enviro groups attacking them for their lack of green-ness? Sure, there have been a couple of obscure organizations who have targeted 'Yota with other manufacturers for the building of large trucks and SUVs, but all the carmakers do that. No other car company has spent as much R&D money on building clean cars. Not even Honda, whom we all know is the GREENEST of the green car companies. 'Yota is always listed 2nd or 3rd most green in almost every study or poll or contest.
Kdh says the Prius is behind 2007 by about 2000 cars. Big frickin whoop. In this economy, that number is almost negligible.
And when is this supposed to happen? They don't have any battery packs to meet current demand. Are the next generation vehicles going to have Lithium Ion batteries or are they going to be fuel cell, or what? Enquiring minds want to know.
You are entitled to your opinion. I do have several very close friends that were born in Mexico and went through the hoops required to be here legally. They feel the same as I do about illegal immigration. If you do not think it is a problem it is again your right. I probably feel as strongly about protecting this countries borders as you feel about opening it up to anyone and every one. With the situation in America there is a very good chance that a large percentage of workers at the new Toyota plant are not legally in this country. I blame our Congress and the system for falling down on identification and enforcement of OUR laws.
I have never heard of Camry door handle problem - maybe this is prior to 2007? The other complaints listed there are build assembly issues (people at the plant not doing their jobs correctly), not design, and I have not heard of widespread complaints about door and trunk alignment, etc. that is alleged. Toyota is having rattle complaints in the interiors that they are addressing via TSBs, along with some other well-reported issues.
Honda is having similar complaints of rattles, fit and finish, etc. and they have had major auto tranny issues, AC compressor problems, etc. Are they bad too? NO. GM, Ford, and all makers are all good now, and I hope EVERYONE does well.
Toyota for 2008 –
What the anti-import crowd fails to realize (admit) is that Toyota has the cash AND knowledge to correct problems, and Toyota has publicly admitted that they were not happy about recent quality issues and are going to work hard to correct them. This group of people is hoping that Toyota will crash and burn, but they don’t realize that Toyota is too good a company to sit back and let their company fall like GM did in the 70’s. That is what you can expect for the rest of ’08 going forward – Toyota will be refocusing on quality issues. They are still better than almost anyone, even now, just not as perfect as in the past.
The other challenge that Toyota has discussed in the past is that people in the US are going to rebel against Toyota when they get to or near #1 in sales. Guess what, I can see this happening now, more and more resentment of Toyota is everywhere! If Toyota has ANY problem, no matter how minor, it gets HUGE publicity, or at least some people try to give it huge publicity.
With the situation in America there is a very good chance that a large percentage of workers at the new Toyota plant are not legally in this country
I can't believe that I am reading this because that will be almost suicide for Toyota and they really don't need that kind of negative advertising. By the way, do you have any sort of evidence or proves from reliable sources saying that Toyota "might be" hiring illegal immigrants besides he said and she said?
My post was about "Toyota in 2008" and their issues with the Prius sales. One view of Toyota held by a poster who continues to mislead the uninitiated is being challenged by facts.
All posters here are entitled to an opinion, and we all should welcome different opinions. Without them, it would be BORING around here and many people would go away. Threads where everyone agrees all the time are DEAD or DYING.
IMHO - sometimes it's necessary to pinpoint the source of a particular opinion and defray that argument a little and provide background on where that opinion might be coming from, so that new posters will not come on this Forum and take one person's views as being the gospel and start spreading that elsewhere.
Very few people think Toyota is not green and think that the Prius is a loss leader and think that Toyota is intentionally holding back Prius sales in the USA. So far, only one view is held as such.
But the key to keeping customers coming back is to address the problem right away, fix it and make sure it never occurs again
That sounds good. It does not always happen that way. I took my 07 Sequoia in for the 5000 mile service. I had a list of items that needed attending to. Of course I knew they would not do anything about the NAV. What they did not fix that bothers me is the hydraulic rear door lifts and the CD player. The hydraulic door lifts do not work well at all when the temps are down to about 35 degrees. His response was to bring it in when it fails. Well you know as well as he did that after driving 35 miles the inside of the vehicle will be warmed up and they will work. The CD player worked with their test disk. It does not work with several disks that I have. They all worked fine in my GMC Sierra PU truck. SO I cannot get an XM player integrated into the system and cannot play CDs. That leaves a couple FM stations worth listening to in town and talk radio.
I think the newer generation Toyota's will have more problems than mine.
There are very few companies in the USA who "intentionally knowingly" hire illegal workers.
Large corporations like 'Yota have teams of lawyers who oversee the hiring process. They will not be in the group of "knowingly hiring" companies. No Fortune 1000 company will be.
We all "accidentally" sometimes hire illegals. Sometimes the fake paperwork is VERY good, and current laws make it so that because of privacy issues, this is all we can do - accept paperwork which "looks" to be official.
If the papers turn out to be fake later, well, it is not the fault of the employer.
If anything, they are not green, but schizophrenic. They build the Prius on one end, yet build Sequoias and Tundras on the other. Heck, if any company can claim to be "green," it's Honda. They don't even manufacture a V-8.
They will not be in the group of "knowingly hiring" companies. No Fortune 1000 company will be.
I totally agree. That is why I blame Congress and the Federal system for failure to ID these fraudulent SS numbers that are being used to gain employment. The workers coming in illegally by and large are very hard working and good employees. My comment on training is valid. It costs a company money to train someone. Now back to the original premise. IF TOYOTA is serious about hybrids and in particular the Prius it would convert the factory in San Antonio to produce the next generation of hybrids. If Toyota continues with the current MO of building the Prius overseas and shipping them to the USA I will question there commitment to the hybrid genre.
But they are green comparably. Pretty much Toyota is the greenest Tier 1 auto manufacture. To compare full line manufactures like Toyota and GM to much smaller ones like Honda and BMW is idiotic and misleading.
They build the Prius on one end, yet build Sequoias and Tundras on the other
What's wrong with building Sequoias and Tundras when there was a demand in the market? Last I checked, GM has the Tahoe/Yukon/Silverado/Sierra and Ford has the Expedition/F-150 but where are their Priuses RIGHT NOW? Don't tell me the Volt is coming in couple years I want to know where is the big 2's Priuses RIGHT NOW! I know you hate Toyota but at least give credit when credit is due. Toyota introduced the first generation Prius back in 1997 and that was when the gas is still cheap ($0.99/gallon) so pretty much no one gave it a hoot and every manufacture was trying to build the biggest and baddest SUV. Even with the lack of interest Toyota stuck with it and now the investment is finally paying off and we are having the argument about they are not green?
Seriously, give me a break!
if any company can claim to be "green," it's Honda. They don't even manufacture a V-8.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Honda is working hard to introduce a V8 and a V10 in the near future. Stay tuned.
Lemko, good point, I'm glad you brought that up, but I DO have the perfect rebuttal for that argument.
First Honda:
Honda holds the championship belt, the crown, the trophy, as without a doubt the CLEANEST, GREENEST major carmaker on the Planet. The are the undisputed top dog when it comes to Green. No one challenges that idea at all. Honda is Tops.
Now to 'Yota:
Toyota is FAR greener in Japan than in other countries. They have hybrids there and EVs and tiny "city cars" which are not available anywhere else. They get plenty of "Green credit" for that, although we here seldom get to hear or see anything about those vehicles here in the USA.
Now on to the argument that "they make Sequoias and Tundras at one end.":::
True, they do. But other than Honda, so does every OTHER truly major player in the US Market. So since they ALL (excepting Honda and the South Koreans) make large, hulking SUVS and trucks, let's say they ALL start on even ground. We are talking ONLY about the carmakers who build and sell large SUVs and Trucks in the USA.
Major Point Number One:
Since they all do that (build the large ones) they are all on even ground there.
So, now that they are on even ground, let's dig deeper:
How many smaller/smallish cars does each one have which are minimal polluters? They all have a good stable of those.
So what is the differentiating factor? How about "cars which rate 30 MPG or more in the fleet" as a good starting point?
Major Point Number Two:
As of model year 2007, Toyota has a higher percentage of their cars which achieve 30+ mpg highway than anyone excepting Honda.
Now, that right there puts Toyota number two behind Honda (to whom we are not really comparing, since they are not in the "large SUV/Truck category" anyway ).
So now that Toyota is in the lead in that category, let's put the "icing on their Green Cake" so to speak...................Drum Roll Please.............................
Major Point Number Three:
No car company in the WORLD has put more clean-burning hybrids on the road than Toyota.
So there you have it. Not only does Toyota have a higher percentage of their cars at 30+ MPG than any other in the "also sells Polluters" group, they are so far ahead in Hybrids it is not even funny.
And Toyota, outside of making clean cars, does a LOT of stuff for the environment in other areas:
May 18, 2008 Toyota Prototype Maps The Way For Green Dealerships
By 2011, Toyota Motor Corp. expects to have 100 environmentally friendly dealerships — or just under 10 percent of its U.S. dealer network, The Wall Street Journal reports.
Toyota outlines features of its green dealerships in its own prototype store design, which includes such things as lifts lubricated with vegetable oil, geothermal heating systems, and the recycling of car wash water for the washing of organic duds.
And:
Toyota's 5-year Green Plan announced in 2006 has these goals and more:
- achievement of best-in-class fuel efficiency performance, - reduction of total energy usage of manufacturing facilities and operations in North America by 27% per vehicle produced, using FY 2002 as a base year, - promotion of basic environmental research aimed at CO2 emissions reductions, and - reduction of waste in sales and logistics facilities, including a 90% recycling rate at vehicle distribution centers by FY 2011, reduction of non-hazardous waste to landfill from parts operations by 33% by FY 2011 (FY2006 baseline), diversion of 95% waste from Toyota Canada facilities from landfill by FY 2010 and reduction of Canadian facility paper consumption per person by 25% by FY 2010.
TOKYO - When it comes to saving the planet, Toyota Motor Corp. seems to be leaving no stone unturned. Nor, as it turns out, any pile of cow dung.
The world's number-two car maker said on Friday it had co-developed a cutting-edge composting ingredient and process that drastically reduce nitrous oxide, methane and other greenhouse gases, as well as offensive odours produced by livestock waste -- part of its efforts to clean the environment.
"We've always wanted to do more in the agricultural field," Yasumori Ihara, a managing officer at Toyota, told a news conference.
"This is a dream come true."
When mixed with cow manure, the ingredient -- developed jointly with Menicon Co., Japan's top maker of contact lenses -- speeds up the time it takes to convert the waste into compost, to 45 days from anywhere between 90 to 180 days. The resulting compost is also of a higher quality, containing less nitrate-nitrogen, a water pollutant, Toyota said.
"After using this formula, the neighbours stopped complaining about the pungent smell," a cattle farmer who tested the magic powder, appropriately named "resQ45" for Recycle, Eco, Speed, Quality and playing on the word rescue, said in a promotional video.
P.S. Last month, the Yaris was named "Green Car of the Year" which puts another feather in the 'Yota Green Hat:
The Toyota Yaris is one of the most efficient, inexpensive vehicles on the road, getting 34 mpg in the city and 40 mpg on the highway, and it achieves this without a hybrid drivetrain. The Yaris has, understandably, become a popular compact car, not only thanks to its efficiency, but especially given it's affordability. Now, the Environmental Transport Association (ETA), which is currently running the 2008 Green Transport Week in the UK, has named the Yaris the 2008 Green Car of the Year. In order to name the winner, the ETA looked at the "power, emissions, fuel efficiency and even the amount of noise" from over 1,300 vehicles. The Yaris came out on top, and the Dodge SRT-10 sports car came in dead last.
Additionally, three Toyota models were in the ETA’s top ten with the Prius (3rd), Aygo (6th) and Auris (9th) being identified as some of the greenest vehicles available in the UK.
The Toyota RAV4 was named as the greenest vehicle in the Off Road category and the Toyota Aygo was top in the City category.
DISLAIMER: I'm going to bring this up, because it likely will be brought up by other posters later. YES, it is true that Toyota has been taking some flack from the Enviro-Types for their protestation of the fleet mpg standards. But they, like GM and Ford, have perfectly good reasons for doing so. The standards would make it very difficult for carmakers to sustain profits because consumers have proven over and over again that they will NOT PAY extra
for items which vastly improve the cleanliness or economy of cars. These carmakers are a BUSINESS and they are in it to MAKE MONEY. Taking care of the environment in the process of making money is doable - taking care of the environment at the cost of losing money is not feasible for a business.
'Yota is green, I have presented proof positive. I'm done.
The seas off the coast of China are green. The gulf off the Mississippi is green. They are both bad. So all that looks green is not good. You can spin Toyota all you want. They are only green to enhance their image. NO OTHER REASON. There is NOTHING ALTRUISTIC about Toyota. That would extend to Honda, GM, Ford and all the rest.
When Toyota or Honda match this vehicle they will be on my list to buy. Not until. Mercedes 40-MPG Diesel Hybrid: Cleanest SUV on the Planet
Mercedes plans to release a diesel-hybrid SUV capable of 40 miles per gallon, with cleaner emissions than your standard car. Demo’d at the 2008 Geneva Auto show, the SUV is built on Mercedes’ relatively new BlueTec emissions control technology—a combination of catalytic converters and advanced chemical processing that scrubs out the worst pollutants produced by the diesel engine. The 4-cylinder, 214 horsepower engine will also break the world’s record for lowest carbon emissions (157 g/km) in an SUV.
They are only green to enhance their image. NO OTHER REASON
Of course they are, they are in a business to make money after all...
However, give credit when credit is due, Toyota did stick with the Prius when gas price was cheap and SUVs are the kings of the lots. What happened to Honda's Insight? Where is big 2.5's Prius fighter?
Honda's Insight was only a two-seater and not practical for most people, though I think it is a pretty good first effort. I wouldn't mind finding one of the neat little bullet cars if it had low miles and was reasonably priced, (impossible in this environment). Honda does have the Civic Hybrid which at least doesn't look super-dorky like the Prius.
Ford has the Escape and Mariner hybrid SUVs. Chevrolet has a hybrid Malibu and truck. I believe GMC has a version too. Look forward to the Volt. I have seen the fuel cell Trailblazer in person. I hope fuel cells do turn out to be a viable option - no emmissions and we can tell our "friends" what they can do with all their sloppy black goo.
Toyota did stick with the Prius when gas price was cheap
First we did not get the Prius in the USA until 4 years after it was sold in Japan. We do not know how many Billions of dollars the Japanese gave their automakers to develop the hybrids. We know they did. So while they do have the best hybrid sold in the USA. They do not necessarily have the most eco friendly cars on the planet. Both BMW and VW had more of their vehicles rated PZEV sooner than Toyota. I have no problem with them being a good company and even the phony green image. I just want to balance out those that think they do this because they LOVE the environment. That just is not so.
In fact the Number one selling Toyota vehicle last month the Corolla is not even close to PZEV rated in CA. The 2009 Corolla is a gas guzzling, GHG spewing pig compared to the 2008 Corolla. The Civic is even less environmentally friendly than the 2008 Corolla. So tell me about this so called Japanese green image.
I'd like to see some proof. I have read elsewhere in a similar debate that they did NOT get government help. Do a search.
None of the automotive companies, or any for profit companies, are working on being green because they love the environment. It is because they love profit and it is the "correct" thing to do.
The whole point is that Toyota is the best green automaker because they offer the most green vehicles and have sold more than anyone. One post a little while ago proves this.
Garys says, "First we did not get the Prius in the USA until 4 years after it was sold in Japan."
Acutally, it was about three years. Dec 1997 for Japanese Prius, and Summer 2000 for USA Prius.
Gary says, "They do not necessarily have the most eco friendly cars on the planet."
Never said they did.
Gary says, "I just want to balance out those that think they do this because they LOVE the environment. That just is not so."
No car company will ever let "love for the environment" come before making money. Even the companies in the business of green technology can't stay in business if they don't make money. It's a balancing act.
Gary says, "Both BMW and VW had more of their vehicles rated PZEV sooner than Toyota."
Ford too. You know why? Because they don't have a Prius and CAFE regulations make (force) them to have PZEV cars to make their fleet numbers. Companies need to incorporate clean technology to balance out their gas guzzlers.
Gary says, "The 2009 Corolla is a gas guzzling, GHG spewing pig compared to the 2008 Corolla."
BUSTED, GARY !! Got you dead to rights on this one. You don't often make mistakes like this, so I forgive you this one little one !!! Go to fueleconomy.gov and look at the 1.8 L engine auto tranny 4 spd Corolla in the 2008 and 2009 versions and to a side by side comparison. Here is what you will find:
No you are busted the most efficient 2008 Corolla gets better mileage with LESS GHG the best rated 2009 Corolla. And it is not very clean by your own standards of excellence. It has no better pollution score than my 2007 Sequoia. Try again.
Not the page I looked at. Where are you getting your info? I compared like vehicles and posted the stats. My stats were not wrong - I double and triple-checked them.
Do the search yourself, and let me know what you compared so I can see what oyu are talking about.
I compared the Corollas which will sell the most - the 2008/2009 1.8 liter engine auto tranny versions. What did you compare?
One thing that has been announced and is certain is that Toyota has already stated that it will increase production of the Prius by 60% 'this year'. I'm guessing that this means their production year which begins now and runs through Apr 2009.. but the precise timeframe is speculation on my part. The +60% is not.
As you point out there is no backing off the Prius. It's a gargantuan success. In the 'next year they should be producing well over 400,000 copies. Then they apparently will launch 2 or 3 other Prius models including a Lexus 'Prius'.
If anything, they are not green, but schizophrenic. They build the Prius on one end, yet build Sequoias and Tundras on the other.
No, it is NOT saintly and near beatification. It is a capitalistic business organization who's sole goal in life is to make as much money as possible for the shareholders.
Any other attributes projected onto it are PR and sales-oriented....in order to make more money. It's a capitalistic business organization. Every company does this but frankly Toyota does a better job than most in projecting whatever image the prospective buyer wants to see. This is the job of Marketing - self promotion.
In fact the Number one selling Toyota vehicle last month the Corolla is not even close to PZEV rated in CA. The 2009 Corolla is a gas guzzling, GHG spewing pig compared to the 2008 Corolla. The Civic is even less environmentally friendly than the 2008 Corolla. So tell me about this so called Japanese green image
What the heck? Where did you make this up from? Short factual disproof of unfounded statement to follow....
The most efficient 2008 Corolla gets better mileage and spews less GHG than the most efficient 2009 Corolla. Not my FACTS. They are on the EPA. The 2009 manual and auto are both rated 30 MPG combined. The 2008 Corolla is rated 31 MPG. I just don't see how you can defend the car when it is not offered with PZEV rating. For all that worship the PZEV god this Corolla has to be a real let down, from the automaker they revere above all else. At least BMW and VW offer their biggest selling models with a PZEV rating. Put another way. I would bet that a higher percentage of VWs and BMWs sold in CA have a PZEV rating than does Toyota or Honda.
Just the facts, that is all we are after. Not cherry picking to prove a point.
You want facts? I posted them earlier. Here they are again for you to see, since someone might have missed it last time.
Go to fueleconomy.gov and look at the 1.8 L engine auto tranny 4 spd Corolla in the 2008 and 2009 versions and do a side by side comparison. Here is what you will find:
The 2009 Corolla is more efficient/cleaner in every category. I can't help you if you don't want to read the numbers.
And I ALREADY explained why 'Yota has fewer PZEV rated cars - they don't need them because the rest of the fleet is clean and efficient enough to meet regs. Other carmakers have to load up on PZEVs to make the regs- 'Yota does not.
The auto industry already KNOWS that buyers WILL NOT PAY MORE for PZEV technology. They know that from testing and surveys and actual car sales. The PZEV rating cannot be offered as "an option" - it's either on the car from the mfg line or it is not. 99% or more of buyers don't care and almost as many don't know what PZEV even IS.
Your whole post is cherry picked data and Toyota Spin. I would think you worked for them... Toyota has a low percentage of PZEV cars and YOU KNOW IT. That is why you try to spin your way out. I think I can find posts of yours where you said all cars should be PZEV no matter what the cost to the consumer.
Have a great 4th of July. I plan to sit home have a BBQ with friends and watch the fireworks from Viejas Indian Casino.
I'm not "cherry picking data." You said that stuff about the Corolla, so I went to fueleconomy.gov and did my own very quick 1-time search. My 1-time, 1 minute comparo came up with the info I posted. Nothing was cherry picked at all - it was the Corolla I would buy so I picked that one.
I never said 'Yota did not have a low percentage of PZEV cars. They do. But the reasons they do are perfectly reasonable - not something they are trying to hide. It costs money to have a high mileage, perfectly clean fleet. No one else is doing it - why should 'Yota be expected to when they are ALREADY one of the top two or three in the category? Toyota cannot FORCE buyers to take PZEV cars.
And yes, I think ALL 4-cyl and smaller engines should be PZEV rated. But just as I am not assailing BMW or Ford or GM or Nissan or Hyundai or Kia or Dodge about it, I'm not going to assail 'Yota about it.
When one company finally decides to make all their small cars PZEV, the industry will follow. Until then, how are you going to convince a carmaker to do something that is against their financial interest when NO ONE ELSE IS DOING IT?
And a safe 4th to you and yours too Gary. I'm not sure yet what I'm going to do, but it will be out of the 110 degree heat that's for sure !!!
Comments
I must confess I do not understand why they adjust the numbers for sales days. Isn't this concept a little obsolete? I mean, I don't know of any dealership any more that is closed on Sundays, which is what I assume the "sales days" exclude.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You two can spin the lower Prius sales this year anyway you like. The bottom line is they have sold 3100 less through June of this year than last. If what the two of you are saying is true, Toyota planned on selling less Prius this year than last. That does not make logical sense with the sales figures for last year and the jump in gas prices over the last 12 months. I don't think Toyota wants to sell anymore hybrids than they have to for that green image to remain. It seems that Toyota was talking about a million Prius a year back in 2005. They will be lucky to build half that many World wide, if the figures are correct. They are not big sellers in the EU. So Japan must be getting more than the USA.
Your comments are just becoming more and more befuddling. Where do you come up with this stuff?
How many times do I have to say "unexpected (U N E X P E C T E D) demand" because of the cost of gasoline struck ALL CARMAKERS, not just 'Yota.
If you notice, even GM and others said they don't have enough small cars for the demand. And they don't even have to DEAL with batteries !!!
It was an UNEXPECTED (meaning impossible to plan for) battery shortage.
And yes, Toyota has "planned on selling a Million HYBRIDS a year" - Not your mistaken comment of a "million PRIUSES a year" for a long time.
But the have always said "in the decade 2010 forward" for that projection. Not now, not with only the few hybrids they have available in their fleet now.
They are talking about in the FUTURE when they have the hybrid option available on almost all their cars.
( Gary - A Compliment For You: You are very good at twisting things around and inserting an assumption here and there based on partial info, or on one piece of info combined with another similar but unrelated piece of info. If there were a profession which required that talent, you would be the best at it. !!! )
And you topped it of with the most whammy of all whammies:
Gary says, "I don't think Toyota wants to sell anymore hybrids than they have to for that green image to remain."
Pure, unsupported speculation, impossible to prove or disprove. Your opinion, of course, and AGAIN, one which is shared by no one else at the CarSpace Forums. In that way, you are unique.
Yet again you have your facts screwed up. Toyota has NOT sold as MANY Prius this year as LAST YEAR. What you are saying is they thought last year was the peak for the Prius. That this year they would not be able to sell as many as last year.
READ the Toyota sales through June of 2008. They have sold Less of their best mileage car than they sold last year. That is piss poor planning or they did it on purpose. Or does it take more batteries to build fewer cars this year than it did last year. Keep spinning your hole is getting deeper and deeper....
They are within 2000 units of being exactly on the same number as last year. We'll revisit this subject at the end of the year.
The rest of the commentary is well......silly. But wait a minute maybe it's not silly. It may be that you've hit on something I've been mentioning for several months now. Every Prius sold in the UK generates $10000-$15000 more revenue for the manufacturer than if it were sold here!!!!!
Wha's that you say?
From my days in the steel business currency fluctuations made a HUGE impact on sales and which country got what. With the US$ tanking daily Toyota is losing $2000 - $4000 on every $20000 vehicle shipped here. When the US$ are converted and reported as a sale the net 'loss' is $2-$4000. But in the UK where the pound is a lot stronger they don't lose this money.....in addition in the UK they sell the same $28000 sold here for about $40000!!!!!
If this was my former company then the US market would have been shut out back in January until the US$ recovered. I can definitely see the Japanese directing more and more sales to Europe and Asia and Canada and away from the US as the US$ becomes more and more worthless. That's just a business decision.
It's not a whole lot different than the oil producers and traders are doing on a daily basis. I'll go farther. When the new 09s are intro'd in Oct, I estimate that there will be a $1000 price increase due to currency factors, increased demand and higher shipping costs. For the 2010's next year, another bump and less availability, if the US$ doesn't recover.
That argument I would buy wholeheartedly. We are the cheap guys on the planet. This whole post makes more sense than any of the "Toyota just did not know" the demand, argument. It is another reason we get the dregs from the other automakers also. It may mean that the Prius numbers will drop until Toyota starts building them here, Canada or Mexico. The falling dollar will put US made cars on a better plane than foreign built ones. The VW Jetta TDI built in Mexico will be competitive on every level. How long before Toyota starts building the Prius in NA?
Actually I've read NUMMI which makes sense from a market location pov. But it's just speculation. It makes a lot of sense since the Prius will continue to grow and grow but currency issues may make it not worthwhile to continue to import here.
Kentucky is a natural too since it currently makes the TCH and it's centrally located.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They already have all their illegal workers trained in San Antonio. :sick:
I wonder if they could boot the Vibe out of there and build Prius instead. California is Prius' biggest market, of course, and it does make some sense for them to produce the car as close as possible to its biggest market...
Toyota should have started building its own battery packs sooner than this. I think the reason they didn't is because they had hopes that Li-Ion would make more and quicker advances than it has.
I talked to a salesman at the local dealership last night, and he said they currently have 78 people on their waiting list for Prius. He said that some, when they come in and discover that they can't drive home in a Prius, just suck up anything else on the lot that makes high mileage. So Corollas are pretty much out of stock, as are Yarii. Matrix doesn't sell as well, because its mileage isn't up there with Corolla, despite having the same engines. So it makes quite a contrast - they had several rows of Matrix but only two Yarii, about four Corollas, and one Prius with a "SOLD!" sign in the window.
They also had a fair number of Camry hybrids.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
You're a very big ignoramus!
A local dealer had over a dozen visits from customers who came back because their Camrys' door handles fell off!!! The moment the customer explained the problem the guy at the shop only said "omg, not another one." Other common, albeit less frequent complaints include misaligned headlights, doors and trunk, non-working lightbulbs.
the one thing that the anti-Toyota troops don't understand is that everyone acknowledges that no vehicle maker ever makes absolutely perfect vehicles 100% of the time.
But the key to keeping customers coming back is to address the problem right away, fix it and make sure it never occurs again. When this happens then those that have had a problem forget about it. Who cares. I had two minor recalls last year, both were fixed during normal OCI visits. I was never inconvenienced in any way.
Actually all vehicle makers are really really good now. Most of these issues that were plagues in the past are behind them, Dexcool, sludge, ignition fires. No vehicle maker was EVER perfect in the past. None are now. As long as the issue is handled in a customer-friendly manner the customer will remain loyal.
I did not say 2007 was the "peak year" for the Prius, and 'Yota of COURSE DID NOT THINK 2007 was the "peak year" for the Prius. That would be idiotic of them. They know the future is hybrids and variations thereof.
Here are the problems for you Gary and why the two of us bang heads so often on 'Yota issues:
1. You have a grudge from 1964 against 'Yota for that Lemon Land Crusher you bought and you cannot get over it.
2. A long time ago you "latched on" to the Prius being a "loss leader" and you, in spite of EVERY SINGLE PIECE of PROVEN EVIDENCE against that being true, continue to cling to that false belief. So you fall back on your base false belief by your new argument, which is "'Yota is selling fewer Priuses in the USA because they are not making money on them." It would be a FINE argument, were it true. But it ain't, so it ain't.
3. Your biggie is "'Yota is not green." And you AGAIN have chosen that view probably alone in the whole world. There is not a shred (not a SINGLE SHRED) of evidence that 'Yota is not as green as everyone has pinned them out to be. In your mind, anyway, you see some sort of alternate reality where 'Yota has not won dozens of green car awards from various and sundry enviro groups (whom you hate and don't trust ANYWAY either, which reinforces your false reality that 'Yota is not green) and let me ask you one thing: If 'Yota is not green, where are all the enviro groups attacking them for their lack of green-ness? Sure, there have been a couple of obscure organizations who have targeted 'Yota with other manufacturers for the building of large trucks and SUVs, but all the carmakers do that. No other car company has spent as much R&D money on building clean cars. Not even Honda, whom we all know is the GREENEST of the green car companies. 'Yota is always listed 2nd or 3rd most green in almost every study or poll or contest.
Kdh says the Prius is behind 2007 by about 2000 cars. Big frickin whoop. In this economy, that number is almost negligible.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Honda is having similar complaints of rattles, fit and finish, etc. and they have had major auto tranny issues, AC compressor problems, etc. Are they bad too? NO. GM, Ford, and all makers are all good now, and I hope EVERYONE does well.
Toyota for 2008 –
What the anti-import crowd fails to realize (admit) is that Toyota has the cash AND knowledge to correct problems, and Toyota has publicly admitted that they were not happy about recent quality issues and are going to work hard to correct them. This group of people is hoping that Toyota will crash and burn, but they don’t realize that Toyota is too good a company to sit back and let their company fall like GM did in the 70’s. That is what you can expect for the rest of ’08 going forward – Toyota will be refocusing on quality issues. They are still better than almost anyone, even now, just not as perfect as in the past.
The other challenge that Toyota has discussed in the past is that people in the US are going to rebel against Toyota when they get to or near #1 in sales. Guess what, I can see this happening now, more and more resentment of Toyota is everywhere! If Toyota has ANY problem, no matter how minor, it gets HUGE publicity, or at least some people try to give it huge publicity.
Again, I hope EVERYONE does well.
I can't believe that I am reading this because that will be almost suicide for Toyota and they really don't need that kind of negative advertising. By the way, do you have any sort of evidence or proves from reliable sources saying that Toyota "might be" hiring illegal immigrants besides he said and she said?
All posters here are entitled to an opinion, and we all should welcome different opinions. Without them, it would be BORING around here and many people would go away. Threads where everyone agrees all the time are DEAD or DYING.
IMHO - sometimes it's necessary to pinpoint the source of a particular opinion and defray that argument a little and provide background on where that opinion might be coming from, so that new posters will not come on this Forum and take one person's views as being the gospel and start spreading that elsewhere.
Very few people think Toyota is not green and think that the Prius is a loss leader and think that Toyota is intentionally holding back Prius sales in the USA. So far, only one view is held as such.
That IS about Toyota in 2008.
That sounds good. It does not always happen that way. I took my 07 Sequoia in for the 5000 mile service. I had a list of items that needed attending to. Of course I knew they would not do anything about the NAV. What they did not fix that bothers me is the hydraulic rear door lifts and the CD player. The hydraulic door lifts do not work well at all when the temps are down to about 35 degrees. His response was to bring it in when it fails. Well you know as well as he did that after driving 35 miles the inside of the vehicle will be warmed up and they will work. The CD player worked with their test disk. It does not work with several disks that I have. They all worked fine in my GMC Sierra PU truck. SO I cannot get an XM player integrated into the system and cannot play CDs. That leaves a couple FM stations worth listening to in town and talk radio.
I think the newer generation Toyota's will have more problems than mine.
Large corporations like 'Yota have teams of lawyers who oversee the hiring process. They will not be in the group of "knowingly hiring" companies. No Fortune 1000 company will be.
We all "accidentally" sometimes hire illegals. Sometimes the fake paperwork is VERY good, and current laws make it so that because of privacy issues, this is all we can do - accept paperwork which "looks" to be official.
If the papers turn out to be fake later, well, it is not the fault of the employer.
I totally agree. That is why I blame Congress and the Federal system for failure to ID these fraudulent SS numbers that are being used to gain employment. The workers coming in illegally by and large are very hard working and good employees. My comment on training is valid. It costs a company money to train someone. Now back to the original premise. IF TOYOTA is serious about hybrids and in particular the Prius it would convert the factory in San Antonio to produce the next generation of hybrids. If Toyota continues with the current MO of building the Prius overseas and shipping them to the USA I will question there commitment to the hybrid genre.
But they are green comparably. Pretty much Toyota is the greenest Tier 1 auto manufacture. To compare full line manufactures like Toyota and GM to much smaller ones like Honda and BMW is idiotic and misleading.
They build the Prius on one end, yet build Sequoias and Tundras on the other
What's wrong with building Sequoias and Tundras when there was a demand in the market? Last I checked, GM has the Tahoe/Yukon/Silverado/Sierra and Ford has the Expedition/F-150 but where are their Priuses RIGHT NOW? Don't tell me the Volt is coming in couple years I want to know where is the big 2's Priuses RIGHT NOW! I know you hate Toyota but at least give credit when credit is due. Toyota introduced the first generation Prius back in 1997 and that was when the gas is still cheap ($0.99/gallon) so pretty much no one gave it a hoot and every manufacture was trying to build the biggest and baddest SUV. Even with the lack of interest Toyota stuck with it and now the investment is finally paying off and we are having the argument about they are not green?
Seriously, give me a break!
if any company can claim to be "green," it's Honda. They don't even manufacture a V-8.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Honda is working hard to introduce a V8 and a V10 in the near future. Stay tuned.
First Honda:
Honda holds the championship belt, the crown, the trophy, as without a doubt the CLEANEST, GREENEST major carmaker on the Planet. The are the undisputed top dog when it comes to Green. No one challenges that idea at all. Honda is Tops.
Now to 'Yota:
Toyota is FAR greener in Japan than in other countries. They have hybrids there and EVs and tiny "city cars" which are not available anywhere else. They get plenty of "Green credit" for that, although we here seldom get to hear or see anything about those vehicles here in the USA.
Now on to the argument that "they make Sequoias and Tundras at one end.":::
True, they do. But other than Honda, so does every OTHER truly major player in the US Market. So since they ALL (excepting Honda and the South Koreans) make large, hulking SUVS and trucks, let's say they ALL start on even ground. We are talking ONLY about the carmakers who build and sell large SUVs and Trucks in the USA.
Major Point Number One:
Since they all do that (build the large ones) they are all on even ground there.
So, now that they are on even ground, let's dig deeper:
How many smaller/smallish cars does each one have which are minimal polluters? They all have a good stable of those.
So what is the differentiating factor? How about "cars which rate 30 MPG or more in the fleet" as a good starting point?
Major Point Number Two:
As of model year 2007, Toyota has a higher percentage of their cars which achieve 30+ mpg highway than anyone excepting Honda.
See this page for details on that statistic:
Playing with percentages
Now, that right there puts Toyota number two behind Honda (to whom we are not really comparing, since they are not in the "large SUV/Truck category" anyway ).
So now that Toyota is in the lead in that category, let's put the "icing on their Green Cake" so to speak...................Drum Roll Please.............................
Major Point Number Three:
No car company in the WORLD has put more clean-burning hybrids on the road than Toyota.
So there you have it. Not only does Toyota have a higher percentage of their cars at 30+ MPG than any other in the "also sells Polluters" group, they are so far ahead in Hybrids it is not even funny.
And Toyota, outside of making clean cars, does a LOT of stuff for the environment in other areas:
May 18, 2008 Toyota Prototype Maps The Way For Green Dealerships
By 2011, Toyota Motor Corp. expects to have 100 environmentally friendly dealerships — or just under 10 percent of its U.S. dealer network, The Wall Street Journal reports.
Toyota outlines features of its green dealerships in its own prototype store design, which includes such things as lifts lubricated with vegetable oil, geothermal heating systems, and the recycling of car wash water for the washing of organic duds.
And:
Toyota's 5-year Green Plan announced in 2006 has these goals and more:
- achievement of best-in-class fuel efficiency performance,
- reduction of total energy usage of manufacturing facilities and operations in North America by 27% per vehicle produced, using FY 2002 as a base year,
- promotion of basic environmental research aimed at CO2 emissions reductions, and
- reduction of waste in sales and logistics facilities, including a 90% recycling rate at vehicle distribution centers by FY 2011, reduction of non-hazardous waste to landfill from parts operations by 33% by FY 2011 (FY2006 baseline), diversion of 95% waste from Toyota Canada facilities from landfill by FY 2010 and reduction of Canadian facility paper consumption per person by 25% by FY 2010.
And:
Toyota helps deal with the Japanese Cow Dung problem
TOKYO - When it comes to saving the planet, Toyota Motor Corp. seems to be leaving no stone unturned. Nor, as it turns out, any pile of cow dung.
The world's number-two car maker said on Friday it had co-developed a cutting-edge composting ingredient and process that drastically reduce nitrous oxide, methane and other greenhouse gases, as well as offensive odours produced by livestock waste -- part of its efforts to clean the environment.
"We've always wanted to do more in the agricultural field," Yasumori Ihara, a managing officer at Toyota, told a news conference.
"This is a dream come true."
When mixed with cow manure, the ingredient -- developed jointly with Menicon Co., Japan's top maker of contact lenses -- speeds up the time it takes to convert the waste into compost, to 45 days from anywhere between 90 to 180 days. The resulting compost is also of a higher quality, containing less nitrate-nitrogen, a water pollutant, Toyota said.
"After using this formula, the neighbours stopped complaining about the pungent smell," a cattle farmer who tested the magic powder, appropriately named "resQ45" for Recycle, Eco, Speed, Quality and playing on the word rescue, said in a promotional video.
P.S. Last month, the Yaris was named "Green Car of the Year" which puts another feather in the 'Yota Green Hat:
Yaris Rocks the Greenies
The Toyota Yaris is one of the most efficient, inexpensive vehicles on the road, getting 34 mpg in the city and 40 mpg on the highway, and it achieves this without a hybrid drivetrain. The Yaris has, understandably, become a popular compact car, not only thanks to its efficiency, but especially given it's affordability. Now, the Environmental Transport Association (ETA), which is currently running the 2008 Green Transport Week in the UK, has named the Yaris the 2008 Green Car of the Year. In order to name the winner, the ETA looked at the "power, emissions, fuel efficiency and even the amount of noise" from over 1,300 vehicles. The Yaris came out on top, and the Dodge SRT-10 sports car came in dead last.
Additionally, three Toyota models were in the ETA’s top ten with the Prius (3rd), Aygo (6th) and Auris (9th) being identified as some of the greenest vehicles available in the UK.
The Toyota RAV4 was named as the greenest vehicle in the Off Road category and the Toyota Aygo was top in the City category.
DISLAIMER: I'm going to bring this up, because it likely will be brought up by other posters later. YES, it is true that Toyota has been taking some flack from the Enviro-Types for their protestation of the fleet mpg standards. But they, like GM and Ford, have perfectly good reasons for doing so. The standards would make it very difficult for carmakers to sustain profits because consumers have proven over and over again that they will NOT PAY extra
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
The seas off the coast of China are green. The gulf off the Mississippi is green. They are both bad. So all that looks green is not good. You can spin Toyota all you want. They are only green to enhance their image. NO OTHER REASON. There is NOTHING ALTRUISTIC about Toyota. That would extend to Honda, GM, Ford and all the rest.
Mercedes 40-MPG Diesel Hybrid: Cleanest SUV on the Planet
Mercedes plans to release a diesel-hybrid SUV capable of 40 miles per gallon, with cleaner emissions than your standard car. Demo’d at the 2008 Geneva Auto show, the SUV is built on Mercedes’ relatively new BlueTec emissions control technology—a combination of catalytic converters and advanced chemical processing that scrubs out the worst pollutants produced by the diesel engine.
The 4-cylinder, 214 horsepower engine will also break the world’s record for lowest carbon emissions (157 g/km) in an SUV.
http://gas2.org/2008/04/07/mercedes-40-mpg-diesel-hybrid-vision-glk-bluetec-suv/-
Of course they are, they are in a business to make money after all...
However, give credit when credit is due, Toyota did stick with the Prius when gas price was cheap and SUVs are the kings of the lots. What happened to Honda's Insight? Where is big 2.5's Prius fighter?
Ford has the Escape and Mariner hybrid SUVs. Chevrolet has a hybrid Malibu and truck. I believe GMC has a version too. Look forward to the Volt. I have seen the fuel cell Trailblazer in person. I hope fuel cells do turn out to be a viable option - no emmissions and we can tell our "friends" what they can do with all their sloppy black goo.
First we did not get the Prius in the USA until 4 years after it was sold in Japan. We do not know how many Billions of dollars the Japanese gave their automakers to develop the hybrids. We know they did. So while they do have the best hybrid sold in the USA. They do not necessarily have the most eco friendly cars on the planet. Both BMW and VW had more of their vehicles rated PZEV sooner than Toyota. I have no problem with them being a good company and even the phony green image. I just want to balance out those that think they do this because they LOVE the environment. That just is not so.
In fact the Number one selling Toyota vehicle last month the Corolla is not even close to PZEV rated in CA. The 2009 Corolla is a gas guzzling, GHG spewing pig compared to the 2008 Corolla. The Civic is even less environmentally friendly than the 2008 Corolla. So tell me about this so called Japanese green image.
I'd like to see some proof. I have read elsewhere in a similar debate that they did NOT get government help. Do a search.
None of the automotive companies, or any for profit companies, are working on being green because they love the environment. It is because they love profit and it is the "correct" thing to do.
The whole point is that Toyota is the best green automaker because they offer the most green vehicles and have sold more than anyone. One post a little while ago proves this.
Acutally, it was about three years. Dec 1997 for Japanese Prius, and Summer 2000 for USA Prius.
Gary says, "They do not necessarily have the most eco friendly cars on the planet."
Never said they did.
Gary says, "I just want to balance out those that think they do this because they LOVE the environment. That just is not so."
No car company will ever let "love for the environment" come before making money. Even the companies in the business of green technology can't stay in business if they don't make money. It's a balancing act.
Gary says, "Both BMW and VW had more of their vehicles rated PZEV sooner than Toyota."
Ford too. You know why? Because they don't have a Prius and CAFE regulations make (force) them to have PZEV cars to make their fleet numbers. Companies need to incorporate clean technology to balance out their gas guzzlers.
Gary says, "The 2009 Corolla is a gas guzzling, GHG spewing pig compared to the 2008 Corolla."
BUSTED, GARY !! Got you dead to rights on this one. You don't often make mistakes like this, so I forgive you this one little one !!! Go to fueleconomy.gov and look at the 1.8 L engine auto tranny 4 spd Corolla in the 2008 and 2009 versions and to a side by side comparison. Here is what you will find:
2008 Corolla:
combined mpg 29 MPG
users report 33.2 MPG
annual fuel cost $2,122
annual petroleum usage 11.8 barrels
annual tons of CO2: 6.3
2009 Corolla:
combined mpg 30 MPG
users report 34.2 MPG
annual fuel cost $2,048
annual petroleum usage 11.4 barrels
annual tons of CO2: 6.1
The 2009 Corolla is more efficient/cleaner in every category.
Nice Try, however..................:)
Do the search yourself, and let me know what you compared so I can see what oyu are talking about.
I compared the Corollas which will sell the most - the 2008/2009 1.8 liter engine auto tranny versions. What did you compare?
As you point out there is no backing off the Prius. It's a gargantuan success. In the 'next year they should be producing well over 400,000 copies. Then they apparently will launch 2 or 3 other Prius models including a Lexus 'Prius'.
No, it is NOT saintly and near beatification. It is a capitalistic business organization who's sole goal in life is to make as much money as possible for the shareholders.
Any other attributes projected onto it are PR and sales-oriented....in order to make more money. It's a capitalistic business organization. Every company does this but frankly Toyota does a better job than most in projecting whatever image the prospective buyer wants to see. This is the job of Marketing - self promotion.
What the heck? Where did you make this up from? Short factual disproof of unfounded statement to follow....
Just the facts, that is all we are after. Not cherry picking to prove a point.
Check for yourself.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm
Go to fueleconomy.gov and look at the 1.8 L engine auto tranny 4 spd Corolla in the 2008 and 2009 versions and do a side by side comparison. Here is what you will find:
2008 Corolla:
combined mpg 29 MPG
users report 33.2 MPG
annual fuel cost $2,122
annual petroleum usage 11.8 barrels
annual tons of CO2: 6.3
2009 Corolla:
combined mpg 30 MPG
users report 34.2 MPG
annual fuel cost $2,048
annual petroleum usage 11.4 barrels
annual tons of CO2: 6.1
The 2009 Corolla is more efficient/cleaner in every category. I can't help you if you don't want to read the numbers.
And I ALREADY explained why 'Yota has fewer PZEV rated cars - they don't need them because the rest of the fleet is clean and efficient enough to meet regs. Other carmakers have to load up on PZEVs to make the regs- 'Yota does not.
The auto industry already KNOWS that buyers WILL NOT PAY MORE for PZEV technology. They know that from testing and surveys and actual car sales. The PZEV rating cannot be offered as "an option" - it's either on the car from the mfg line or it is not. 99% or more of buyers don't care and almost as many don't know what PZEV even IS.
Have a great 4th of July. I plan to sit home have a BBQ with friends and watch the fireworks from Viejas Indian Casino.
I never said 'Yota did not have a low percentage of PZEV cars. They do. But the reasons they do are perfectly reasonable - not something they are trying to hide. It costs money to have a high mileage, perfectly clean fleet. No one else is doing it - why should 'Yota be expected to when they are ALREADY one of the top two or three in the category? Toyota cannot FORCE buyers to take PZEV cars.
And yes, I think ALL 4-cyl and smaller engines should be PZEV rated. But just as I am not assailing BMW or Ford or GM or Nissan or Hyundai or Kia or Dodge about it, I'm not going to assail 'Yota about it.
When one company finally decides to make all their small cars PZEV, the industry will follow. Until then, how are you going to convince a carmaker to do something that is against their financial interest when NO ONE ELSE IS DOING IT?
And a safe 4th to you and yours too Gary. I'm not sure yet what I'm going to do, but it will be out of the 110 degree heat that's for sure !!!
It was the 2008 Corolla I would buy and it gets better mileage than the 2009 Corolla you would buy :P
Keep cool, it is a balmy 79.3 degrees here on the hill.
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/getForecast?query=alpine%2C+ca